Thanks for the report. I think Madcap coming out for SB hate is exactly the way the deck should be played. The opponent will bring in some amount of hate for it, Ancient Grudge etc., so blanking that hate is totally valid approach. It's at this point that I usually bring in Trinispheres as they totally nonbo with Madcap.
Do you think the MB Thrun is necessary? Or the 3 Bonfire? I find the lack of spot removal a little problematic, but hey, if it works.
I agree on the Scooze. It's a sort of incremental advantage card that's hard to utilize without the support of creature removal/creatures for it to eat. Arguably awesome against Dredge, but how often are we holding mana open? I usually tap out turns 1-4.
Can someone explain to me the judge rulings and interaction the Madcap Emperion Nonbo with Trinisphere, please?
So, has anyone tried Deus of Calamity? It begs to be blocked just to avoid the "free" land destruction. I realise it's vulnerable to removal, but everything is vulnerable to some form of removal.
I still haven't received a response on why no use of Dungrove Elder. Acid Moss beefs him up. He dodges removal and if most lists are playing Inferno Titan and/or Bonfire then that helps remove chump blockers.
I don't think it is a great idea as it doesn't work with the Utopia Sprawl plan and is terrible outside of having it in your opening hand on the draw (and having to exile a card).
Having 10x turn 1 ramp cards is enough imho and if you want even more you can add Birds of Paradise 3-4.
Round 1 - Merfolk - (a friend) 0-2. I lost hard here. Game 1 was bad. Aether Vial, Harbinger an Arbor Elf and spreading seas a Utopia Sprawl did me in. Mana denial as he topped deck second Island. Game 2 was worse. Kept a one lander with stomping ground, arbor elf, utopia sprawl, birds, grudge, and anger of the gods, inferno titan and i forget what else, but it didn't matter. Gut shot the arbor elf, spreading seas the land and i didn't have anything else to handle his aggro.
I took out - 4 Stone Rain, 2 Acid Moss, 1 Garruk, 2 Moon for 4 Angers, 1 Dismember, 2 Obstinate Baloths, 2 Scoozes
Round 2 - Grixis Shadow - 2-0. I won hard here. Game 1 - on the play - Land utopia sprawl. he thoughtseized after fetching for a water grave and took my stone rain. Top decked a blood moon like a boss and he scopped. Game 2 - I kept a hand of 2 land, chalice of the void, 2 blood moon, chameleon colossus, and an inferno titan. Iok takes the chalice, thoughtseize takes the dismember, got the 3rd land landed a blood moon, but he played a 5/5 death shadow. still at 3 lands, but at 4 life left I topped an Arbor Elf, then topped deck fourth land for chameleon colossus then got another played both just in case of sandbagged lilianna and then attacked one for the win.
Sideboarded - 3 Bonfire of the Damned, 2 Acid Moss, 2 Stone Rain for 3 Chalice, 2 Baloth, 1 Thrun, 1 Ooze. Thinking that Huntmasters might be a better side out here.
Round 3 - Mono-White Hatebears - 0-2. Game 1 - He got leonin arbiter and then a Thalia, Heretic Cathar out on turns 2 and 3 so i was stalled in ramping out to land haymakers and he overwhelmed me. Even when i had mana to pay for fetches, an aven mindcensor in response to a path kept me from finding any basics (stomping ground sadly isn't a basic). Game 2 was that where i found all the ramp, but my only pay off Inferno titan got pathed. I kept at 3 lands due to tec edge since i didn't find a blood moon, but kept drawing lands, arbor elves, or sprawls. a bonfire for 4 kept in the game, but he played a forge tender for the anger i had and i was dead.
Sideboarded - 2 Acid Moss, 4 Stone Rain, 1 Moon for 4 Angers, 2 Ancinet Grudge, 1 Dismember. I am thinking i should also side in the Baloths.
Round 4 - Zombie-Hunt - 2-0. Games 1 and 2 were stomps even though i didn't find any business, lands, or ramps there for a long time. new guy who didn't know how to play his deck. First FNM. I gave him pointers throughout the game.
Sidedout - 4 Moon, 2 acid moss, 1 stone rain for 3 chalice, 4 Anger
Deck that I used at the FNM
Thoughts - Never saw Garruk, but he might have been useless on the whole. Land Destruction is pretty common in fringier decks like ours so our ramp is somewhat vulnerable to it as seen in Mono-White hatebears and Merfolk which might be some our bad matchups. I don't think Hatebears is favorable, but i think Merfolk is pretty worse. They have a lot to just disrupt our ramp.
PPTQ Changes - 3rd stomping ground for 9th forest, 2nd Thragtusk for Garruk Primal Hunter, 2 Trinishere for the 2 chalices, 1 Chameleon colossus for 3rd
chalice. I am still thinking of putting a second Ooze as graveyards are very commonly used.
I really think I am sideboarding incorrectly. Any chance of a guide coming out? or even general tips for sideboarding?
Hey everyone, been following the thread past few weeks and have a more standard list sleeved up. I was attracted to Ponza partly as my first deck back during revised was a R/G ramp/stomp deck with Tinder Wall, Orcish Lumberjack, Ernham Djinn, Shivan Dragon. Also was around with original Ponza with Avalance Riders, Rishadan Port and I also loved a BR LD deck I built around then which could feel the QQ from opponents even online
I won't argue if truly needed but the 2 slots for Birds does feel weak. Also I understand the argument for not having 2CC cards and being clunky if don't have turn 2 play. However, haven't seen anyone ask: 1) How often do you get that 1CC ramp but have no 3CC spell in opening hand, 2) Have the 1CC and 3CC but don't have 2nd land? Basically I'm asking has someone done the hypergeometric distribution beyond just drawing the 1CC ramp to these other scenarios? Also looking at albeit different Prime Time Valakut decks it brings up how much would it hurt to use Sakura-Tribe Elder or Search For Tomorrow which are more reliable (later is a 1CC kind of).
Also I'm a bit confused on the Hazoret, the Fervent. Unless you expect to face heavy hand discard I find just testing draws with the deck that you don't get hand down to 1 very quickly. So as a 4CC Chameleon Collosus seems more consistent. I will acknowledge Hazoret does provide reach through prison cards like Ensnaring Bridge. It has bad Synergy with Garruk -3 ability (unless plan to chuck them all). I love indestructibility don't get me wrong, but if it sits there doing nothing when we need a blocker or forces us to be over aggresive dumping hand....idk seems questionable. If it wasn't a new (and thus sexy) card idk if would get this much attention.
This deck I will say seems to be very hard to ascertain power/play just testing out some hands. Really depends on what opponent plays and how impactful that turn 2 BM is. I do like how deck can seemingly shift gears post SB (as I expect you can get a ton of free wins with BM alone game 1).
@Worldsaverinc curious as you seem to be only one running them how are the Huntmasters working out? Looks like you're them playing over 3rd and 4th copies of Acid-Moss
A lot of players are using only 2 Acid Moss these days. I am using Huntmaster instead of say 2 Lightning Bolt or an additional Chameleon Colossus/Thragtusk/Stormbreath Dragon/Inferno Titan.
It is a value engine and machine. It does get taken out fairly frequently but it generally either buys me a turn due to use of removal spell and blocking with the token, but also the lifegain has been relevant before. I think it really depends. It is a super value oriented creature that is fatal pushable. It is also is conditional value. It has lifegain, damage to opponet, kill a creature, more creatures, etc. It is a jack of all trades and master of none. Keeping it in the main provides another 4cc creature and an additional maindeck answer to burn.
A lot of players are using only 2 Acid Moss these days. I am using Huntmaster instead of say 2 Lightning Bolt or an additional Chameleon Colossus/Thragtusk/Stormbreath Dragon/Inferno Titan.
It is a value engine and machine. It does get taken out fairly frequently but it generally either buys me a turn due to use of removal spell and blocking with the token, but also the lifegain has been relevant before. I think it really depends. It is a super value oriented creature that is fatal pushable. It is also is conditional value. It has lifegain, damage to opponet, kill a creature, more creatures, etc. It is a jack of all trades and master of none. Keeping it in the main provides another 4cc creature and an additional maindeck answer to burn.
I can also vouch for Huntmaster due to many of the reasons you mentioned. I took out - 1x Inferno & - 1x Thragtusk to run two in the MB.
I went 2-3 and dropped from my six round PPTQ. I wasn't a happy camper. The last match my G/W hatebear opponent had a really tuned deck and he played it superwell that I got about as salty as other players do playing us.
Due to my love of Tribal and Ponza, I am going to try a tribal ponza for the next few FNM's before the next tournament. I am in no way sanctioning this as a competitive version of ponza, but I do want to tune it. I will go through various iterations from more Tribal to more Ponza and probably back to actual ponza as it competes more and more.
The Duskwatch Recruiter and Domri Rade are a flex spots that is most likely to become Trinishere, Dismember/Moonlight Hunt/Lightning Bolt/Bonfire of the Damned, or Primal Command. Sideboard is also weird. I might not need Moonmists with only 8 transforming cards and such fast aggro a thing of the past. It could easily become a Fracturing Gust.
I have played ponza and werewolves. Without enough Ramp, Werewolves are just slow creatures, grindy creatures. Huntmaster being good, immerwolf being good, chameleon colossus being good, Mayor being good. I want to be able to land my good werewolves on turn 2 or 3 as much as I can, but since I am also running land destruction and blood moon which are also important to land on turn 2-3, it makes sense to keep most of the ramp (i removed 1 land and 2 birds). I think I probably need to accelerate as much as possible to land on four mana on turn 2-3 as much as possible. After initial disruption of moon, rain, my creatures/planeswalkers should provide enough value to help win the game afterword.
There aren't enough variety of werewolves that are good in general. I wanted to focus on the highlights. One of the things I am iffy on is the planeswalkers Arlinn, Garruk, and Domri, but they provide valuable flexibleness and lack of removal.
I know some lists are playing with Kitchen Finks main and this was a way to get a tribal play on that.
I sitll think this list has weaknesses, but it is what I am trying. I am sure that I will find out that while fun, it isn't competitive and shift back to a traditional ponza list.
Regardless of its actual play I think that wolf deck is pretty sweet. You even managed to get Arlinn Kord in there . Blood moon even on theme with the werewolfs hehe. I could see where keeping the Blood Moons as only LD cards and just making a more fleshed out aggro curve would work better for wolf concept (so more of a BM deck; less ponza). I think more copies of Duskwatch Recruiter would be good for added value. Not sure the Chandra really makes as much sense in that deck, It's -3 is really most useful for turn played. Also having never played with it is the 2nd effect Immerwolf usually a benifit or a hindrance? Also I think this kind of deck probably wants Lightning Bolt to take out early blockers and for reach.
Oh and even makes use of Chameleon Colossus changeling, nice. Btw having playtested a bit with Mayor in humans I can say it often feels weak especially when going more speed based, and often gets trimmed to 2 copies.
Mtg goldfish played against Ponza in an against the odds match on YouTube and Ponza won in less than 6 min. Lol
Ya, I saw that. It was hilarious.
That man's voice made me want to shove pushpins into my eardrums.
Re: Acid Moss, I think 2 is incorrect. It's our best card for pushing into the late game faster. Our topdecks are not very good. We need to close out games as fast as possible. This is a LD/Ramp deck, and no other cards do that job as efficiently as Acid Moss. I would cut to 3 at the MOST. In fact I'd rather find other cards to cut because we want to see Acid early in the game, and reducing its numbers makes that less likely to happen.
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Can someone explain to me the judge rulings and interaction the Madcap Emperion Nonbo with Trinisphere, please?
It is just outclassed by Thrun (which isn't that good in the deck outside of control matchups anyway).
It also doesn't have evasion.
Having 10x turn 1 ramp cards is enough imho and if you want even more you can add Birds of Paradise 3-4.
Round 1 - Merfolk - (a friend) 0-2. I lost hard here. Game 1 was bad. Aether Vial, Harbinger an Arbor Elf and spreading seas a Utopia Sprawl did me in. Mana denial as he topped deck second Island. Game 2 was worse. Kept a one lander with stomping ground, arbor elf, utopia sprawl, birds, grudge, and anger of the gods, inferno titan and i forget what else, but it didn't matter. Gut shot the arbor elf, spreading seas the land and i didn't have anything else to handle his aggro.
I took out - 4 Stone Rain, 2 Acid Moss, 1 Garruk, 2 Moon for 4 Angers, 1 Dismember, 2 Obstinate Baloths, 2 Scoozes
Round 2 - Grixis Shadow - 2-0. I won hard here. Game 1 - on the play - Land utopia sprawl. he thoughtseized after fetching for a water grave and took my stone rain. Top decked a blood moon like a boss and he scopped. Game 2 - I kept a hand of 2 land, chalice of the void, 2 blood moon, chameleon colossus, and an inferno titan. Iok takes the chalice, thoughtseize takes the dismember, got the 3rd land landed a blood moon, but he played a 5/5 death shadow. still at 3 lands, but at 4 life left I topped an Arbor Elf, then topped deck fourth land for chameleon colossus then got another played both just in case of sandbagged lilianna and then attacked one for the win.
Sideboarded - 3 Bonfire of the Damned, 2 Acid Moss, 2 Stone Rain for 3 Chalice, 2 Baloth, 1 Thrun, 1 Ooze. Thinking that Huntmasters might be a better side out here.
Round 3 - Mono-White Hatebears - 0-2. Game 1 - He got leonin arbiter and then a Thalia, Heretic Cathar out on turns 2 and 3 so i was stalled in ramping out to land haymakers and he overwhelmed me. Even when i had mana to pay for fetches, an aven mindcensor in response to a path kept me from finding any basics (stomping ground sadly isn't a basic). Game 2 was that where i found all the ramp, but my only pay off Inferno titan got pathed. I kept at 3 lands due to tec edge since i didn't find a blood moon, but kept drawing lands, arbor elves, or sprawls. a bonfire for 4 kept in the game, but he played a forge tender for the anger i had and i was dead.
Sideboarded - 2 Acid Moss, 4 Stone Rain, 1 Moon for 4 Angers, 2 Ancinet Grudge, 1 Dismember. I am thinking i should also side in the Baloths.
Round 4 - Zombie-Hunt - 2-0. Games 1 and 2 were stomps even though i didn't find any business, lands, or ramps there for a long time. new guy who didn't know how to play his deck. First FNM. I gave him pointers throughout the game.
Sidedout - 4 Moon, 2 acid moss, 1 stone rain for 3 chalice, 4 Anger
Deck that I used at the FNM
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Chameleon Colossus
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Inferno Titan
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Tragtusk
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Blood Moon
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
1 Primal Command
4 Stone Rain
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Anger of the Gods
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Dismember
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Thoughts - Never saw Garruk, but he might have been useless on the whole. Land Destruction is pretty common in fringier decks like ours so our ramp is somewhat vulnerable to it as seen in Mono-White hatebears and Merfolk which might be some our bad matchups. I don't think Hatebears is favorable, but i think Merfolk is pretty worse. They have a lot to just disrupt our ramp.
PPTQ Changes - 3rd stomping ground for 9th forest, 2nd Thragtusk for Garruk Primal Hunter, 2 Trinishere for the 2 chalices, 1 Chameleon colossus for 3rd
chalice. I am still thinking of putting a second Ooze as graveyards are very commonly used.
I really think I am sideboarding incorrectly. Any chance of a guide coming out? or even general tips for sideboarding?
I won't argue if truly needed but the 2 slots for Birds does feel weak. Also I understand the argument for not having 2CC cards and being clunky if don't have turn 2 play. However, haven't seen anyone ask: 1) How often do you get that 1CC ramp but have no 3CC spell in opening hand, 2) Have the 1CC and 3CC but don't have 2nd land? Basically I'm asking has someone done the hypergeometric distribution beyond just drawing the 1CC ramp to these other scenarios? Also looking at albeit different Prime Time Valakut decks it brings up how much would it hurt to use Sakura-Tribe Elder or Search For Tomorrow which are more reliable (later is a 1CC kind of).
Also I'm a bit confused on the Hazoret, the Fervent. Unless you expect to face heavy hand discard I find just testing draws with the deck that you don't get hand down to 1 very quickly. So as a 4CC Chameleon Collosus seems more consistent. I will acknowledge Hazoret does provide reach through prison cards like Ensnaring Bridge. It has bad Synergy with Garruk -3 ability (unless plan to chuck them all). I love indestructibility don't get me wrong, but if it sits there doing nothing when we need a blocker or forces us to be over aggresive dumping hand....idk seems questionable. If it wasn't a new (and thus sexy) card idk if would get this much attention.
This deck I will say seems to be very hard to ascertain power/play just testing out some hands. Really depends on what opponent plays and how impactful that turn 2 BM is. I do like how deck can seemingly shift gears post SB (as I expect you can get a ton of free wins with BM alone game 1).
@Worldsaverinc curious as you seem to be only one running them how are the Huntmasters working out? Looks like you're them playing over 3rd and 4th copies of Acid-Moss
It is a value engine and machine. It does get taken out fairly frequently but it generally either buys me a turn due to use of removal spell and blocking with the token, but also the lifegain has been relevant before. I think it really depends. It is a super value oriented creature that is fatal pushable. It is also is conditional value. It has lifegain, damage to opponet, kill a creature, more creatures, etc. It is a jack of all trades and master of none. Keeping it in the main provides another 4cc creature and an additional maindeck answer to burn.
I can also vouch for Huntmaster due to many of the reasons you mentioned. I took out - 1x Inferno & - 1x Thragtusk to run two in the MB.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
I played against a different deck almost every round and have a lot of good feedback to report. Will try to post my write up later tonight/tomorrow.
In my at home testing I'm looking at some ridiculous creatures to test because the bomb slot is so flexible.
Notables include: Thornling and Greenwarden of Murasa
Inadequate ones include: Ishkanah, Grafwidow and Arachnus Spinner
I present Wolf and Moon.
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Mountain
3 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arbor Elves
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Immerwolf
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Chameleon Colossus
1 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Blood Moon
4 Stone Rain
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Arlinn Kord,
1 Domri Rade
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Trinisphere
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Dismember
2 Moonmist
2 Full Moon's Rise
The Duskwatch Recruiter and Domri Rade are a flex spots that is most likely to become Trinishere, Dismember/Moonlight Hunt/Lightning Bolt/Bonfire of the Damned, or Primal Command. Sideboard is also weird. I might not need Moonmists with only 8 transforming cards and such fast aggro a thing of the past. It could easily become a Fracturing Gust.
There aren't enough variety of werewolves that are good in general. I wanted to focus on the highlights. One of the things I am iffy on is the planeswalkers Arlinn, Garruk, and Domri, but they provide valuable flexibleness and lack of removal.
I know some lists are playing with Kitchen Finks main and this was a way to get a tribal play on that.
I sitll think this list has weaknesses, but it is what I am trying. I am sure that I will find out that while fun, it isn't competitive and shift back to a traditional ponza list.
Regardless of its actual play I think that wolf deck is pretty sweet. You even managed to get Arlinn Kord in there . Blood moon even on theme with the werewolfs hehe. I could see where keeping the Blood Moons as only LD cards and just making a more fleshed out aggro curve would work better for wolf concept (so more of a BM deck; less ponza). I think more copies of Duskwatch Recruiter would be good for added value. Not sure the Chandra really makes as much sense in that deck, It's -3 is really most useful for turn played. Also having never played with it is the 2nd effect Immerwolf usually a benifit or a hindrance? Also I think this kind of deck probably wants Lightning Bolt to take out early blockers and for reach.
Oh and even makes use of Chameleon Colossus changeling, nice. Btw having playtested a bit with Mayor in humans I can say it often feels weak especially when going more speed based, and often gets trimmed to 2 copies.
That man's voice made me want to shove pushpins into my eardrums.
Re: Acid Moss, I think 2 is incorrect. It's our best card for pushing into the late game faster. Our topdecks are not very good. We need to close out games as fast as possible. This is a LD/Ramp deck, and no other cards do that job as efficiently as Acid Moss. I would cut to 3 at the MOST. In fact I'd rather find other cards to cut because we want to see Acid early in the game, and reducing its numbers makes that less likely to happen.