And on the one guy who said i was lucky... i mean you have to be a little bit lucky but i had the best modern Invi record at 8-0 so some skill was involved.
Go ponza!!!
Please don't get me wrong!
I said that because you're the first guy without birds, so OR you've been lucky OR you made the right choice.
I will try without birds too!
Do you remember how many times you keep or mull a hand without sprawl/elf? It was a right choice?
PS: congratulations for your result!
Don't worry i was trolling with the lucky comment. I for sure mulled a good amount of times, i don't think i had to go lower than 6 except once i went to 5 i won the game on 5 by the way because i found a dork. Keeping a dork in your hand is very important obviously since we don't run 2 drops. i have kept hands without a 1 drop but those hands were normally on a mull and i was on the play. I have to crunch the math on having 8 one drops and the chance of having it in your opener. Also what goes unknown to most is the amount of times your dork gets pushed. My dork got pushed A LOT, but its a good push check card. I mean if you don't have it... good luck. Looking back on my list the first thing i would change is minus 1 inferno titan and add 1 primal command. Primal command is SO crazy and it won me matches that would otherwise be impossible.
Actually in my opinion i would be more likely to try Rhonas the Indomitable. Sometimes i see myself holding on to 2 or 3 cards in my hand and the green god is more likely to happen when all of your creatures are generally large anyway. Also the green god is good at blocking with death touch.
We have a lot of things to do to push this deck further, so in Italy we vulgarly say "basta farci pompini a vicenda!" ("stop doing bl****bs each other")
I have a couple of Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, anyone already tested it?
It seems comparable to cmc5 Garruk and Stormbreath. He suffers PtE but his second ability, equal to the new Chandra, can be useful.
I will try it!
Sarkhan isn't that great. If i want to come in and hit something for 4 i rather have chandra. Stormbreath is a better creature than Sarkhan as well, pro white is very relevant. Also he isn't comparable to Garruk because the walkers are doing too many different things. Garruk is used because it presents an endless supply of 3/3's and card draw, Sarkhan is used because it presents a flying 4/4 threat and sometimes kills a creature. The biggest deck right now not close is death shadow. Going to battle with a 5 mana card that cant beat a gurmag is probably game losing. Chandra isn't good in the match up either but at least shes 4 mana and can get you to inferno titan next turn with her ramp.
To Bern's point about crunching numbers on Birds: Without Birds (8 dorks) we have a 65% chance of a dork in the opener, versus 74% with 10 dorks. Source. You can also do fun stuff with a hypergeometric calculator like calculate the odds of drawing a land in your first draw after keeping a 1 lander: 36% not a mountain, 38% for any land (with the standard 21 lands).
I also think we benefit from the colour fixing, whether it's to make a hand with no fetch and only Forests possibly keepable, to make a bigger Engineered Explosives, or even help to cast Anger of the Gods (poor birb).
Thanks guys for the link to my deck! I want to address a couple things that stand out from the comments i saw.
First, yeah i cut birds from the deck. I used to run 1 birds and 22 land but the birds felt lack luster and didn't do anything. Arbor elf lets you turn 2 4 drop and utopia sprawl doesn't get pushed or bolted. I know that i want to draw at least one 1 drop a game but the cost of drawing them off the top kills me.
Second, garruk primal is WAY better than nissa not close. Nissa can make you lose land drops when animating lands and the draw off land isn't as relevant when we have blood moon out. If you haven't tried garruk primal don't knock it till you try it.
Third, I agree that my 5 drop slot is a little clogged. I was going to put in Chameleon Colossus to help more against death shadow since they seem to have cut bolt.
Fourth, Obstinate Baloth was in the board because the meta call i was making is that burn wasn't going to be popular and lilly of the veil wasn't as popular either. Both cases were right for that tournament and its not a set in stone call either way.
Ill be looking into this forum for more ideas guys. And on the one guy who said i was lucky... i mean you have to be a little bit lucky but i had the best modern Invi record at 8-0 so some skill was involved.
Go ponza!!!
Can you elaborate on your other sideboard choices? What match ups does Magus of the Moon shore up? When do you bring Roast and why 3 of them? Do you feel that the Lantern / Affinity / Bogles matchup is so bad that Fracturing Gust is a x2 of?
played at small FNM tournament, i very like the deck so far. played against affinity (2:0), weird RDW with copters and madness cards(0:2) and naya zoo (2:1). before that played with living end (2:0) and ad nauseum (1:2).
i'm also playing without the birds, because i found that in my experience problem "cannot draw into finisher in the mid-lategame" was more relevant than "haven't any 1-drops in start hand". still, there was a lot of mulligans due to onelanders, but i'm not sure that birds are solving that issue.
i'm very impressed with primal command, played 2-of, and every time i draw it - it leads to stabilization + fast game finishing (more often with stormbreath dragon, than inferno titan).
Thanks guys for the link to my deck! I want to address a couple things that stand out from the comments i saw.
First, yeah i cut birds from the deck. I used to run 1 birds and 22 land but the birds felt lack luster and didn't do anything. Arbor elf lets you turn 2 4 drop and utopia sprawl doesn't get pushed or bolted. I know that i want to draw at least one 1 drop a game but the cost of drawing them off the top kills me.
Second, garruk primal is WAY better than nissa not close. Nissa can make you lose land drops when animating lands and the draw off land isn't as relevant when we have blood moon out. If you haven't tried garruk primal don't knock it till you try it.
Third, I agree that my 5 drop slot is a little clogged. I was going to put in Chameleon Colossus to help more against death shadow since they seem to have cut bolt.
Fourth, Obstinate Baloth was in the board because the meta call i was making is that burn wasn't going to be popular and lilly of the veil wasn't as popular either. Both cases were right for that tournament and its not a set in stone call either way.
Ill be looking into this forum for more ideas guys. And on the one guy who said i was lucky... i mean you have to be a little bit lucky but i had the best modern Invi record at 8-0 so some skill was involved.
Go ponza!!!
Can you elaborate on your other sideboard choices? What match ups does Magus of the Moon shore up? When do you bring Roast and why 3 of them? Do you feel that the Lantern / Affinity / Bogles matchup is so bad that Fracturing Gust is a x2 of?
Also, have you tried Trinisphere in the board?
To answer your questions...
I played magus of the moon because against the match ups where its blood moon or bust (eldrazi tron, control) having 6 copies is better than running 4. Actually i found myself even boarding in magus against death shadow because those decks have seemed to be cutting bolt, and most actually trim push against us. If that deck can't fetch its difficult for them to revolt push.
Roast was a card i was playing as a 3 of that tournament because i didn't fully test Chameleon Colossus. What i know about roast is it can kill turn 2 delve threats and sometimes kills a death shadow and other times it kills goyf. It was mainly used as a way to have early answers and normally came in when bonfire couldn't do the job.
The affinity match up i do feel is bad. If they have a vault flyer with a plating then its going to be a long day. Also i didn't want to lose to etched champion. Bogles is bad but i wasn't really worried about it. Lantern I needed more testing against but from the look of watching it get played there it seems like a card i would want to use to punish those decks.
When i was testing the deck a while ago i used to run trinisphere. It was normally in my board and don't get me wrong landing it is sweet. Although with that being said i felt like it just didn't impact the game enough when i played it. Sure if you execute a turn 2 sphere on the play then LD them you are going to win, but how many times is blood moon going to do the same thing? Also trinisphere isn't great against shadow because they have K command, not good against dredge because they have loam, not good against control because they can go over it, not good against vial decks, bad vs abzan/jund variants because of decay and i sure i could go on.
In short...
Of all the things i have said the most i am sure is NOT playing trinisphere. Sure you can gust as a one of. Roast is in testing right now because of Chameleon Colossus. Magus of the moon is blood moon 5 and 6.
played at small FNM tournament, i very like the deck so far. played against affinity (2:0), weird RDW with copters and madness cards(0:2) and naya zoo (2:1). before that played with living end (2:0) and ad nauseum (1:2).
i'm also playing without the birds, because i found that in my experience problem "cannot draw into finisher in the mid-lategame" was more relevant than "haven't any 1-drops in start hand". still, there was a lot of mulligans due to onelanders, but i'm not sure that birds are solving that issue.
i'm very impressed with primal command, played 2-of, and every time i draw it - it leads to stabilization + fast game finishing (more often with stormbreath dragon, than inferno titan).
Great news to hear. Can you post your deck? I have now been running with 2 command as well as i took out an inferno titan for it because i feel i can fetch them with the command a lot of the time.
I don't really have any complaints with it but I would like to test the kessig wolf run tech as another option for that late game struggle to draw a win con that the deck tends to do sometimes. So should I cut the ghost quarter for wolf run? Or?
Great news to hear. Can you post your deck? I have now been running with 2 command as well as i took out an inferno titan for it because i feel i can fetch them with the command a lot of the time.
the list is a bit on a budget, so only 2 moons(molten rains used instead) and also manabase is bad, i haven't get my foothills yet.
and i'm not sure what to use instead bonfire(don't like it at all) and communes(it's a filler, i just don't know what to use instead. they are fine, but 2 cmc looks weird in our deck and it's often quite slow play). our meta is only aggro, combo and 1-2 tron decks.
I'd also cut one of the creatures for Primal Command, probably Hazoret.
If you don't have a good PW for card advantage (Nissa, Vital Force is pretty cheap) even a copy of Harmonize isn't too bad.
sorry, list was incomplete, i probably did make a mistake while copying. fixed. i already have 2 Primal Command, and they are key cards that wins games to me in some of the matchups.
i use Chandra as advantage pw, Nissa looks pretty good but 5-cmc.. should i take out one of the goblins for her (for example)?
and, sadly, i didn't have a chance yet to try Hazoret, never seen it during all the tournament.
so the birds are essential to have a good chance to t2 moon/rain? i did mulliganed a lot, but mostly it was one-landers, not the elf/sprawl absence.
Can some of the trinisphere players discuss the card in general and how many main / SB?
I just picked some up and it looks like a great plan -- but unsure as to how many to run.
Also as far as artifact hate goes for affinity / lantern decks what are you guys running?
I have 2 anger / 2 ancient grudge in side for affinity but do I need corrosion / shatterstorm for the lantern matchup?
Also so I don't get hosed by a random hexproof deck should I run the fracturing gusts?
If you want to beat hexproof run Back to Nature. Fracturing Gust will often be too slow. Similarly Shatterstorm /Creeping Corrosion really aren't very effective against Lantern because by the time you are casting them they already have the lock in place to keep you from drawing it and if it's in your hand they have thoughtseized it away. Instead run Ancient Grudge which is great against Affinity and Lantern since now if Lantern mills you that can put a live card in your GY.
I tested Hazoret the Fervent and Rhonas the Indomitable at an FNM last week. Hazoret was not good. I often had way too many cards in hand or ended up using my cards in hand in sub optimal ways just to be able to attack / block. Rhonas on the other hand is awesome as most of our other creatures keep it online and it supplies trample for the few times we need it.
Had a matchup on Friday where I think a turn two Trinisphere would have helped some: Grishoalbrand. I think that over and above Blood Moon hindering the land base, making cards like Goryo's Vengeance, Desperate Ritual, and Manamorphose cost 3 will hinder the deck a lot. Not to mention the affect on the cantrips and looting cards.
I'd also like to get confirmation on the interaction between Trini and Nourishing Shoal using its alternative cost. The way I understand it is its cmc on the stack will be 13 (11 from exiling Worldspine Wurm + 2 because of the 2 green in its normal cmc) or 10 (8 from Borborygmos Enraged + 2); so Trini doesn't affect it.
Can some of the trinisphere players discuss the card in general and how many main / SB?
I just picked some up and it looks like a great plan -- but unsure as to how many to run.
Also as far as artifact hate goes for affinity / lantern decks what are you guys running?
I have 2 anger / 2 ancient grudge in side for affinity but do I need corrosion / shatterstorm for the lantern matchup?
Also so I don't get hosed by a random hexproof deck should I run the fracturing gusts?
I wouldn't run Fracturing Gusts or any hexproof-specific hate unless it's common in your local meta or you're playing in a tourney where it's well positioned. If you were to run some form of hate solely directed toward hexproof, then as a longtime Bogles player, I'd say Aura Barbs is your one-armed man. That card will ***** in the dinner of any opponent playing Bogles.
I testing primal hunter did you run into issues casting triple green? I haven't tested but that seems a little difficult to line up unless late game?
I will say this i think in 99% of situations i have never had a problem. Only time i had trouble was playing against merfolk when i had blood moon out and he spreading sea's me a ton.
I tested Hazoret the Fervent and Rhonas the Indomitable at an FNM last week. Hazoret was not good. I often had way too many cards in hand or ended up using my cards in hand in sub optimal ways just to be able to attack / block. Rhonas on the other hand is awesome as most of our other creatures keep it online and it supplies trample for the few times we need it.
Had a matchup on Friday where I think a turn two Trinisphere would have helped some: Grishoalbrand. I think that over and above Blood Moon hindering the land base, making cards like Goryo's Vengeance, Desperate Ritual, and Manamorphose cost 3 will hinder the deck a lot. Not to mention the affect on the cantrips and looting cards.
I'd also like to get confirmation on the interaction between Trini and Nourishing Shoal using its alternative cost. The way I understand it is its cmc on the stack will be 13 (11 from exiling Worldspine Wurm + 2 because of the 2 green in its normal cmc) or 10 (8 from Borborygmos Enraged + 2); so Trini doesn't affect it.
Damn, Hazoret is my new best friend! I have to test her more.
About Trinisphere, you are wrong: it check how mana has been paid for the spell, if it's less than 3 it becomes 3.
So a shoal casted exiling a card costs 3 colorless.
A Force of Will with 1 life and 1 blue card costs 3 colorless.
A living end casted through cascade costs 3 colorless.
1. I think its clear you don't want to go hellbent in modern Hazoret can't be better than the green god. Just my opinion...
2. Trinisphere doesn't add 3 to Shoal. What Dubarrini said is 100% wrong. X spells don't react the same way as force or suspend cards. Just look at the way the card is written. Force cost 3 because no mana is being paid, Living end cost 3 because no mana is being paid. Shoal is 2 + x where x is the additional mana being paid in the cost of the spell. Trinisphere says wow you paid 10 for that spell good job...
1. I think its clear you don't want to go hellbent in modern Hazoret can't be better than the green god. Just my opinion...
2. Trinisphere doesn't add 3 to Shoal. What Dubarrini said is 100% wrong. X spells don't react the same way as force or suspend cards. Just look at the way the card is written. Force cost 3 because no mana is being paid, Living end cost 3 because no mana is being paid. Shoal is 2 + x where x is the additional mana being paid in the cost of the spell. Trinisphere says wow you paid 10 for that spell good job...
I'm actually thinking of working in two Rhonas mainboard.
I delved into the rules after asking (my head hurts from all the reading) and the Shoal having X and the alternative cost affecting X does get around Trini.
I also decided to drop Bonfire of the Damned completely. It's a nightmare when you have it in your opening hand, drawing it means you have to commit and drawing it without the intend of playing it feels horrible aswell. It's just so situational and I think I can do better with a smiliar effect.
So, question that I ask myself now is, Mizzium Mortars or Sweltering Suns? I playtested with Mortars so far and I like it.
I have yet to test Sweltering Suns, but I think you want the one sidedness of Mizzium Mortars. It's the same reason we have Anger of the Gods sideboard and not mainboard (it kills the bird and elf). I've had some success with Mortars, but that could be related to my 3 mainboard Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
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Don't worry i was trolling with the lucky comment. I for sure mulled a good amount of times, i don't think i had to go lower than 6 except once i went to 5 i won the game on 5 by the way because i found a dork. Keeping a dork in your hand is very important obviously since we don't run 2 drops. i have kept hands without a 1 drop but those hands were normally on a mull and i was on the play. I have to crunch the math on having 8 one drops and the chance of having it in your opener. Also what goes unknown to most is the amount of times your dork gets pushed. My dork got pushed A LOT, but its a good push check card. I mean if you don't have it... good luck. Looking back on my list the first thing i would change is minus 1 inferno titan and add 1 primal command. Primal command is SO crazy and it won me matches that would otherwise be impossible.
All hail the greatness that is Ponza!
Actually in my opinion i would be more likely to try Rhonas the Indomitable. Sometimes i see myself holding on to 2 or 3 cards in my hand and the green god is more likely to happen when all of your creatures are generally large anyway. Also the green god is good at blocking with death touch.
Sarkhan isn't that great. If i want to come in and hit something for 4 i rather have chandra. Stormbreath is a better creature than Sarkhan as well, pro white is very relevant. Also he isn't comparable to Garruk because the walkers are doing too many different things. Garruk is used because it presents an endless supply of 3/3's and card draw, Sarkhan is used because it presents a flying 4/4 threat and sometimes kills a creature. The biggest deck right now not close is death shadow. Going to battle with a 5 mana card that cant beat a gurmag is probably game losing. Chandra isn't good in the match up either but at least shes 4 mana and can get you to inferno titan next turn with her ramp.
To Bern's point about crunching numbers on Birds: Without Birds (8 dorks) we have a 65% chance of a dork in the opener, versus 74% with 10 dorks.
Source. You can also do fun stuff with a hypergeometric calculator like calculate the odds of drawing a land in your first draw after keeping a 1 lander: 36% not a mountain, 38% for any land (with the standard 21 lands).
I also think we benefit from the colour fixing, whether it's to make a hand with no fetch and only Forests possibly keepable, to make a bigger Engineered Explosives, or even help to cast Anger of the Gods (poor birb).
Can you elaborate on your other sideboard choices? What match ups does Magus of the Moon shore up? When do you bring Roast and why 3 of them? Do you feel that the Lantern / Affinity / Bogles matchup is so bad that Fracturing Gust is a x2 of?
Also, have you tried Trinisphere in the board?
i'm also playing without the birds, because i found that in my experience problem "cannot draw into finisher in the mid-lategame" was more relevant than "haven't any 1-drops in start hand". still, there was a lot of mulligans due to onelanders, but i'm not sure that birds are solving that issue.
i'm very impressed with primal command, played 2-of, and every time i draw it - it leads to stabilization + fast game finishing (more often with stormbreath dragon, than inferno titan).
To answer your questions...
I played magus of the moon because against the match ups where its blood moon or bust (eldrazi tron, control) having 6 copies is better than running 4. Actually i found myself even boarding in magus against death shadow because those decks have seemed to be cutting bolt, and most actually trim push against us. If that deck can't fetch its difficult for them to revolt push.
Roast was a card i was playing as a 3 of that tournament because i didn't fully test Chameleon Colossus. What i know about roast is it can kill turn 2 delve threats and sometimes kills a death shadow and other times it kills goyf. It was mainly used as a way to have early answers and normally came in when bonfire couldn't do the job.
The affinity match up i do feel is bad. If they have a vault flyer with a plating then its going to be a long day. Also i didn't want to lose to etched champion. Bogles is bad but i wasn't really worried about it. Lantern I needed more testing against but from the look of watching it get played there it seems like a card i would want to use to punish those decks.
When i was testing the deck a while ago i used to run trinisphere. It was normally in my board and don't get me wrong landing it is sweet. Although with that being said i felt like it just didn't impact the game enough when i played it. Sure if you execute a turn 2 sphere on the play then LD them you are going to win, but how many times is blood moon going to do the same thing? Also trinisphere isn't great against shadow because they have K command, not good against dredge because they have loam, not good against control because they can go over it, not good against vial decks, bad vs abzan/jund variants because of decay and i sure i could go on.
In short...
Of all the things i have said the most i am sure is NOT playing trinisphere. Sure you can gust as a one of. Roast is in testing right now because of Chameleon Colossus. Magus of the moon is blood moon 5 and 6.
Great news to hear. Can you post your deck? I have now been running with 2 command as well as i took out an inferno titan for it because i feel i can fetch them with the command a lot of the time.
x4 windswept heath
x4 wooded foothills
x2 stomping grounds
x1 cinder glade
x1 ghost quarter
x8 forest
x1 mountain
I don't really have any complaints with it but I would like to test the kessig wolf run tech as another option for that late game struggle to draw a win con that the deck tends to do sometimes. So should I cut the ghost quarter for wolf run? Or?
the list is a bit on a budget, so only 2 moons(molten rains used instead) and also manabase is bad, i haven't get my foothills yet.
2x Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1x Hazoret the Fervent
3x Inferno Titan
2x Obstinate Baloth
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Blood Moon
4x Utopia Sprawl
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Bonfire of the Damned
2x Commune with the Gods
2x Molten Rain
4x Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
4x Stone Rain
2x Primal Command
2x Beast Within
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Mountain
4x Rootbound Crag
1x Stomping Ground
4x Windswept Heath
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Chandra, Pyromaster
2x Dismember
2x Sudden Shock
1x Thragtusk
4x Tormod's Crypt
and i'm not sure what to use instead bonfire(don't like it at all) and communes(it's a filler, i just don't know what to use instead. they are fine, but 2 cmc looks weird in our deck and it's often quite slow play). our meta is only aggro, combo and 1-2 tron decks.
I'd also cut one of the creatures for Primal Command, probably Hazoret.
If you don't have a good PW for card advantage (Nissa, Vital Force is pretty cheap) even a copy of Harmonize isn't too bad.
i use Chandra as advantage pw, Nissa looks pretty good but 5-cmc.. should i take out one of the goblins for her (for example)?
and, sadly, i didn't have a chance yet to try Hazoret, never seen it during all the tournament.
so the birds are essential to have a good chance to t2 moon/rain? i did mulliganed a lot, but mostly it was one-landers, not the elf/sprawl absence.
I just picked some up and it looks like a great plan -- but unsure as to how many to run.
Also as far as artifact hate goes for affinity / lantern decks what are you guys running?
I have 2 anger / 2 ancient grudge in side for affinity but do I need corrosion / shatterstorm for the lantern matchup?
Also so I don't get hosed by a random hexproof deck should I run the fracturing gusts?
If you want to beat hexproof run Back to Nature. Fracturing Gust will often be too slow. Similarly Shatterstorm /Creeping Corrosion really aren't very effective against Lantern because by the time you are casting them they already have the lock in place to keep you from drawing it and if it's in your hand they have thoughtseized it away. Instead run Ancient Grudge which is great against Affinity and Lantern since now if Lantern mills you that can put a live card in your GY.
I've been testing Destructive Revelry in place of Ancient Grudge in my sideboard as I have 3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers mainboard. So far it's been a good "upgrade".
Had a matchup on Friday where I think a turn two Trinisphere would have helped some: Grishoalbrand. I think that over and above Blood Moon hindering the land base, making cards like Goryo's Vengeance, Desperate Ritual, and Manamorphose cost 3 will hinder the deck a lot. Not to mention the affect on the cantrips and looting cards.
I'd also like to get confirmation on the interaction between Trini and Nourishing Shoal using its alternative cost. The way I understand it is its cmc on the stack will be 13 (11 from exiling Worldspine Wurm + 2 because of the 2 green in its normal cmc) or 10 (8 from Borborygmos Enraged + 2); so Trini doesn't affect it.
I wouldn't run Fracturing Gusts or any hexproof-specific hate unless it's common in your local meta or you're playing in a tourney where it's well positioned. If you were to run some form of hate solely directed toward hexproof, then as a longtime Bogles player, I'd say Aura Barbs is your one-armed man. That card will ***** in the dinner of any opponent playing Bogles.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
I will say this i think in 99% of situations i have never had a problem. Only time i had trouble was playing against merfolk when i had blood moon out and he spreading sea's me a ton.
1. I think its clear you don't want to go hellbent in modern Hazoret can't be better than the green god. Just my opinion...
2. Trinisphere doesn't add 3 to Shoal. What Dubarrini said is 100% wrong. X spells don't react the same way as force or suspend cards. Just look at the way the card is written. Force cost 3 because no mana is being paid, Living end cost 3 because no mana is being paid. Shoal is 2 + x where x is the additional mana being paid in the cost of the spell. Trinisphere says wow you paid 10 for that spell good job...
I delved into the rules after asking (my head hurts from all the reading) and the Shoal having X and the alternative cost affecting X does get around Trini.
I have yet to test Sweltering Suns, but I think you want the one sidedness of Mizzium Mortars. It's the same reason we have Anger of the Gods sideboard and not mainboard (it kills the bird and elf). I've had some success with Mortars, but that could be related to my 3 mainboard Goblin Dark-Dwellers.