We all do. It's partially why I started experimenting with Goblin Dark-Dwellers to make the Sorcery speed not as bad by getting two uses out of it (and other cards).
I played around with a moonless version with GDD but never tested it.
What do you cut for GDD, every spot seems important.
I can only talk about my personal testing. So I tested a Moonless Ponza recently (decklist on page 28). In addition to my report in that post, I got a few more games in on XMage since then. While it's not bad, Moon is just too powerful to cut. While Goblin Dark-Dwellers makes the Moonless idea possible and plays a big role in making it work, even with Molten Rain "replacing" Moon, there's just too many decks in Modern that rely on duals and special lands. I personally had more success with the Moon than without in the same number of games.
All I'm saying is it's not impossible, just not advisable. Number of lands isn't as important to them as the quality of the lands.
R1 vs GW Company 2-0
G1 They lead off with a bunch of dorks but no threats. I land blood moon which didn't do as much as I'd hoped but it created a speedbump and I clean up the dorks with Titan. G2 they mull, have a sketchy start, and I keep them off land and they never get in it.
R2 vs Jeskai Ascendency 0-2
G1 seems like a bit of an auto-lose, especially on the draw, and that's what happens. G2 I mull to try to find sideboard cards but can't and get blown out.
R3 vs Storm 2-0
G1 they never manage to find Gifts and I'm able to end the game relatively quickly. This matchup gets a lot better post board. Especially when you slam t2 Trinisphere. Which I did.
R4 vs Mono-Blue Tron (2-0)
I get land Blood Moon to slow them down a bit and get some early beats in with my elves and a Finks. I'm able to keep them off tron but they still get up to ~8 mana. They tap out for Plat Angel and I get Stormbreath down. I get them below 0, their Ugin wipes my board, but I rip a giant miracle Bonfire the turn after. G2 I cut Moon and bring in Ancient Grudge and my cheap sideboard threats, the idea being to put pressure on early or cast multiple threats per turn to overload their countermagic. It works relatively well and I keep pressure up and manage to resolve 1 or 2 LD spells to keep them off easy tron. It gets hairy for a bit when they slaver me but they don't have mana for the lock and I have 2x inferno titan in hand to finish up.
I'm beginning to think I want the 3rd Trinisphere in the board. In the relevant matchups, the card basically wins on its own, and there seem to be more combo decks around my LGS lately.
Have you guys considered Plow Under? I have used it to great effect in other decks. The effect is crippling to decks trying to get to get past mid game. Primal Command is nice, but I think Plow Under is certainly a viable alternative if not an outright replacement.
Have you guys considered Plow Under? I have used it to great effect in other decks. The effect is crippling to decks trying to get to get past mid game. Primal Command is nice, but I think Plow Under is certainly a viable alternative if not an outright replacement.
As interesting Plow Under is, the Primal Command has the up side of fetching your threats and putting any nocreature permanent, like near ultimate planeswalkers, on top of the library.
Have you guys considered Plow Under? I have used it to great effect in other decks. The effect is crippling to decks trying to get to get past mid game. Primal Command is nice, but I think Plow Under is certainly a viable alternative if not an outright replacement.
As interesting Plow Under is, the Primal Command has the up side of fetching your threats and putting any nocreature permanent, like near ultimate planeswalkers, on top of the library.
I mean if they get a near ulting planeswalkers then we have already failed no? Fetching an answer seems meh considering how many big critters we are running, we should have one in hand by the time we have access to 5 mana. If anything Primal should take the slot of a planeswalker or big critter don't you think?
Another card I think is woefully underrepresented in the lists I've seen on this thread is Garruk Wildspeaker. Garruk 1.0 is one of the best planeswalkers in modern, and he fits right into our game plan. I'm never sad to draw him, even in multiples. With Utopia sprawl you can often cast him for free, sometimes even on turn 3. He drops threats as soon as he hits the table, and if you have a couple mana dorks, his ult is gross. What's not to like? 2+ copies in every list at a minimum.
Garruk is good but can be difficult to defend early on and it takes up PW slots from Chandra ToD as I don't think that there is room for 4x PW's in the deck.
Plow Under can be very good but probably only on the play as it would be too slow on the draw, maybe a copy over 1x Mwonvuli Acid-Moss.
Garruk is good but can be difficult to defend early on and it takes up PW slots from Chandra ToD as I don't think that there is room for 4x PW's in the deck.
Plow Under can be very good but probably only on the play as it would be too slow on the draw, maybe a copy over 1x Mwonvuli Acid-Moss.
early on I see you Garruk as very easy to defend with his -1 ability. I agree no more than 3 to 4 planeswalkers, but I think Garruk eclipses all the other walkers being represented in this thread so far. 4cc chandra it's the table and does nothing on turn three or four. 6cc chandra ok, but she competes with inferno titan at that casting cost. At most you can use 1 6cc Chandra. The other two walkers spots I think belong to Garruk, if not all three.
Have you guys considered Plow Under? I have used it to great effect in other decks. The effect is crippling to decks trying to get to get past mid game. Primal Command is nice, but I think Plow Under is certainly a viable alternative if not an outright replacement.
As interesting Plow Under is, the Primal Command has the up side of fetching your threats and putting any nocreature permanent, like near ultimate planeswalkers, on top of the library.
I mean if they get a near ulting planeswalkers then we have already failed no? .
In the specific scenario mentioned, Primal Command lets us turn the game around instead of actually failing. I'll put the Nahiri on top and tutor stormbreath dragon into my hand. Or, if I have threat already in my hand, I'll put nahiri on top and have them shuffle GY into library, effectively just removing her.
Plow Under can be a powerful "time walk", but at 5 cmc and up I should be trying to win the game and not still screwing around with the opponent's lands.
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I've been having a lot of success with this archetype. Feels really solid against the whole meta. Sure some matches like burn can sometimes be blow outs, but then sometimes you land a Turn 2 Trinisphere and blow them out.
The one thing I often find myself wishing for was a reliable answer to Tasigur and Angler. These Grixis / Esper delve matches feel really good EXCEPT when they land that Turn 2 Tasigur. Any ideas?
I've been having a lot of success with this archetype. Feels really solid against the whole meta. Sure some matches like burn can sometimes be blow outs, but then sometimes you land a Turn 2 Trinisphere and blow them out.
The one thing I often find myself wishing for was a reliable answer to Tasigur and Angler. These Grixis / Esper delve matches feel really good EXCEPT when they land that Turn 2 Tasigur. Any ideas?
Both esper and grixis are blown out pretty hard by turn 2 moons, so that would be my main consideration when taking mulls. If they're doing a turn 2 tas, they're not holding up Leak for Moon.
A turn 2 Tas is a tight clock, what I would do in the situation is take the damage while making sure Tasigur is their last play (removing their blue sources first so they can't Serum Visions). With some luck, you will land a Thragtusk or Obstinate Baloth and buy enough time to reach your 6 cmc endgame. A card I play that also stops tasigur is Nissa, Vital Force. Uptick, and keep the 5/5 land back to defend, and that's one more turn bought.
In such situations we're a lot like "Tron" in the sense that our lategame topdecks are going to be stronger and we aim to be much higher on mana and threats that are hard to deal with. So the philosophy in dealing with Tasigur is similar too: take the beating first and try to turn it around before we die.
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I've been having a lot of success with this archetype. Feels really solid against the whole meta. Sure some matches like burn can sometimes be blow outs, but then sometimes you land a Turn 2 Trinisphere and blow them out.
The one thing I often find myself wishing for was a reliable answer to Tasigur and Angler. These Grixis / Esper delve matches feel really good EXCEPT when they land that Turn 2 Tasigur. Any ideas?
Both esper and grixis are blown out pretty hard by turn 2 moons, so that would be my main consideration when taking mulls. If they're doing a turn 2 tas, they're not holding up Leak for Moon.
A turn 2 Tas is a tight clock, what I would do in the situation is take the damage while making sure Tasigur is their last play (removing their blue sources first so they can't Serum Visions). With some luck, you will land a Thragtusk or Obstinate Baloth and buy enough time to reach your 6 cmc endgame. A card I play that also stops tasigur is Nissa, Vital Force. Uptick, and keep the 5/5 land back to defend, and that's one more turn bought.
In such situations we're a lot like "Tron" in the sense that our lategame topdecks are going to be stronger and we aim to be much higher on mana and threats that are hard to deal with. So the philosophy in dealing with Tasigur is similar too: take the beating first and try to turn it around before we die.
AS much as I like Moons in this meta, I can't rely on them. I often side them out game 2 letting them play around cards that aren't there by fetching basics. The best option I've found so far vs Tasi + Angler is Relic of Progenitus.
BTW Trinisphere is an absolute all star coming out of the side. Locks up so many decks on its own, but when you compound the issue with Stone Rain and Mwonvuli...easy games.
Eh? You board out blood moon against tricolor decks? Apart from Tron, those are the guys we play blood moon for!
edit: they do fetch for the basics, which is why we run stone rains, so we can also disable the islands or swamp that they grab. knowing grixis typically runs just 1 basic swamp, locking them out of black is super easy. Blue might not be as simple if they actually went for 2 islands first - but thats not likely since they will want their black for countersquall and tas.
If they're on the play, relic may not be able to stop a t1 fetch scour, t2 fetch into tasigur. I'm not too sure if you want to spend t1 casting relic anyway, we want to ramp and start casting our moons/rains before they get comfortable with their mana.
Quite a few peeps on here agree with your analysis of trinisphere. I'll probably try that out too.
Trinisphere might be a win more card. You use blood moon to lock down non basic but if they have more mana, it is useless.Trinisphere might lock you as well.
Isn't the Madcap / Emperion combo too good to not play? I mean it seems like an obvious win condition that very well suits this deck. Running Trinisphere doesn't really mix well with this package though.
Is anyone running both?
edit:
I also want to use this opportunity to see how people feel about Goblin Dark-Dwellers and Feed the Clan in this meta. GDD activates FTC all his own. Excellent buffer against RDW and Death's Shadow variants perhaps?
(why not go with Anger/Suns instead ?).
Mizzium Mortars is much better than both despite not being a "real" wrath.
All I'm saying is it's not impossible, just not advisable. Number of lands isn't as important to them as the quality of the lands.
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Arbor Elf
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Blood Moon
4x Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
3x Stone Rain
1x Beast Within
1x Bonfire of the Damned
2x Primal Command
4x Inferno Titan
2x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Obstinate Baloth
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Chandra, Flamecaller
1x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Windswept Heath
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Stomping Ground
1x Sheltered Thicket
1x Mountain
8x Forest
3x Anger of the Gods
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Tireless Tracker
2x Trinisphere
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Pithing Needle
3x Relic of Progenitus
R1 vs GW Company 2-0
G1 They lead off with a bunch of dorks but no threats. I land blood moon which didn't do as much as I'd hoped but it created a speedbump and I clean up the dorks with Titan. G2 they mull, have a sketchy start, and I keep them off land and they never get in it.
R2 vs Jeskai Ascendency 0-2
G1 seems like a bit of an auto-lose, especially on the draw, and that's what happens. G2 I mull to try to find sideboard cards but can't and get blown out.
R3 vs Storm 2-0
G1 they never manage to find Gifts and I'm able to end the game relatively quickly. This matchup gets a lot better post board. Especially when you slam t2 Trinisphere. Which I did.
R4 vs Mono-Blue Tron (2-0)
I get land Blood Moon to slow them down a bit and get some early beats in with my elves and a Finks. I'm able to keep them off tron but they still get up to ~8 mana. They tap out for Plat Angel and I get Stormbreath down. I get them below 0, their Ugin wipes my board, but I rip a giant miracle Bonfire the turn after. G2 I cut Moon and bring in Ancient Grudge and my cheap sideboard threats, the idea being to put pressure on early or cast multiple threats per turn to overload their countermagic. It works relatively well and I keep pressure up and manage to resolve 1 or 2 LD spells to keep them off easy tron. It gets hairy for a bit when they slaver me but they don't have mana for the lock and I have 2x inferno titan in hand to finish up.
I'm beginning to think I want the 3rd Trinisphere in the board. In the relevant matchups, the card basically wins on its own, and there seem to be more combo decks around my LGS lately.
As interesting Plow Under is, the Primal Command has the up side of fetching your threats and putting any nocreature permanent, like near ultimate planeswalkers, on top of the library.
Another card I think is woefully underrepresented in the lists I've seen on this thread is Garruk Wildspeaker. Garruk 1.0 is one of the best planeswalkers in modern, and he fits right into our game plan. I'm never sad to draw him, even in multiples. With Utopia sprawl you can often cast him for free, sometimes even on turn 3. He drops threats as soon as he hits the table, and if you have a couple mana dorks, his ult is gross. What's not to like? 2+ copies in every list at a minimum.
Plow Under can be very good but probably only on the play as it would be too slow on the draw, maybe a copy over 1x Mwonvuli Acid-Moss.
In the specific scenario mentioned, Primal Command lets us turn the game around instead of actually failing. I'll put the Nahiri on top and tutor stormbreath dragon into my hand. Or, if I have threat already in my hand, I'll put nahiri on top and have them shuffle GY into library, effectively just removing her.
Plow Under can be a powerful "time walk", but at 5 cmc and up I should be trying to win the game and not still screwing around with the opponent's lands.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
The one thing I often find myself wishing for was a reliable answer to Tasigur and Angler. These Grixis / Esper delve matches feel really good EXCEPT when they land that Turn 2 Tasigur. Any ideas?
Both esper and grixis are blown out pretty hard by turn 2 moons, so that would be my main consideration when taking mulls. If they're doing a turn 2 tas, they're not holding up Leak for Moon.
A turn 2 Tas is a tight clock, what I would do in the situation is take the damage while making sure Tasigur is their last play (removing their blue sources first so they can't Serum Visions). With some luck, you will land a Thragtusk or Obstinate Baloth and buy enough time to reach your 6 cmc endgame. A card I play that also stops tasigur is Nissa, Vital Force. Uptick, and keep the 5/5 land back to defend, and that's one more turn bought.
In such situations we're a lot like "Tron" in the sense that our lategame topdecks are going to be stronger and we aim to be much higher on mana and threats that are hard to deal with. So the philosophy in dealing with Tasigur is similar too: take the beating first and try to turn it around before we die.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
BTW Trinisphere is an absolute all star coming out of the side. Locks up so many decks on its own, but when you compound the issue with Stone Rain and Mwonvuli...easy games.
edit: they do fetch for the basics, which is why we run stone rains, so we can also disable the islands or swamp that they grab. knowing grixis typically runs just 1 basic swamp, locking them out of black is super easy. Blue might not be as simple if they actually went for 2 islands first - but thats not likely since they will want their black for countersquall and tas.
If they're on the play, relic may not be able to stop a t1 fetch scour, t2 fetch into tasigur. I'm not too sure if you want to spend t1 casting relic anyway, we want to ramp and start casting our moons/rains before they get comfortable with their mana.
Quite a few peeps on here agree with your analysis of trinisphere. I'll probably try that out too.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Is anyone running both?
edit:
I also want to use this opportunity to see how people feel about Goblin Dark-Dwellers and Feed the Clan in this meta. GDD activates FTC all his own. Excellent buffer against RDW and Death's Shadow variants perhaps?