What do you guys think of 2 x Chalice of the Void instead of the 2 x Trinisphere in the sb for the storm/burn/boggles matchups. We currently run 0 maindeck 2 drops so a chalice on 2 against storm and burn seems pretty good, and a chalice on 1 pretty much lights out for boggles.
That maneuver has a decent shot on the play, but does much worse on the draw. Chalice on X=2 against Storm probably doesn't happen until turn 3, and they can sometimes go off turn 3 on the play. There is also a non-negligible chance of it just getting countered on the draw. That said, if it lands, it can be hard to remove. Boggles is a bit better, since it's faster and there is a chance to sweep away a Boggle a bit later, but it should not be considered a lock either--they have ready access to artifact removal if they thought to bring it, and they can always try for Daybreak Coronet which tends to be much more difficult to beat.
in less than a month we won't be talking about Chalice vs storm because then we'd have Damping Sphere, which just crushes the deck for a measly 2 mana, and it turns tron from a favorable match up into a win-with-your-eyes-closed match up. Not that we need that, but I always hated tron anyway.
now bogles is something special. Yea a chalice on 1 is probably one of the best things in our colors but I'm not sure I want to be fielding those if its just for bogles (see above paragraph for incoming storm hate). Blood Moon makes their life hard, and I think Fracturing Gust/Back to Nature can help you cover a few other match ups.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
That maneuver has a decent shot on the play, but does much worse on the draw. Chalice on X=2 against Storm probably doesn't happen until turn 3, and they can sometimes go off turn 3 on the play. There is also a non-negligible chance of it just getting countered on the draw. That said, if it lands, it can be hard to remove. Boggles is a bit better, since it's faster and there is a chance to sweep away a Boggle a bit later, but it should not be considered a lock either--they have ready access to artifact removal if they thought to bring it, and they can always try for Daybreak Coronet which tends to be much more difficult to beat.
Bogles player here. Depending on the situation and player, G1,T1 Chalice on 1 is almost always a scoop; most experienced players have adapted as this has always been a glaring weakness and will MB some combination of 2cmc spells to get around it, usually Silhana Ledgewalker to get a hexproof creature down and a set of Spirit Mantle compared to the usual 1 in metas where Chalice is more prevalent. G2 we bring in Seal of Primordium, Krosan Grip, etc. Even if we manage to land a creature before Chalice hits the board, it's definitely an uphill battle considering most builds have zero MB cards with CMC > 2, aside from Leyline (and the occasional Unflinching Courage).
I play both decks, so I'm aware of what you're getting at, but even in that second scenario, the Ponza player has the upper hand. Yes, the Bogles player can continue, but when they only run an average of six 2cmc auras, with no reliable card draw aside from Canopy, they'll likely die before having the chance to draw into one of them.
In either of those scenarios, whether the Ponza player is on the draw or play, a T1 Chalice on 1 will almost assure victory against Bogles. Ponza may slow itself down by now getting out a ramp piece first, but they'll ultimately win the war of attrition. Can't speak for other matchups, but Ponza running chalice is game, set, match vs Bogles. Regardless, if I had to choose between one or the other then I'm still taking Trinisphere over Chalice as a Ponza player.
My metagame is composed by Affinity, Gx Tron, Burn, Jeskai Control, UR Breach, Counters Company, Eldraton, Titanshift, Zoo, Death and Taxes, Grixis Control,UR thing in the Ice, Merfolk and Knightfall.
Do you think my deck could be succesful?
What are the good matches of Ponza?
What are Ponza's bad pairings?
Weaknesses and strengths of RG Ponza?
Thank!!
From your meta;
Affinity
G1: Un-favoured
G2/3 Slightly Favored
Gx Tron
G1: Favored
G2/3 Favored
Burn
G1: Un-favored / Even
G2/3: Slightly Favored
Jeskai Control
G1: Favored
G2/3: Favored
UR Breach
G1: Unfavored
G2/3: Unfavored
UR Thing in the Ice
G1: Unfavored
G2/3: Unfavored
Counters Company
G1: Unfavored
G2/3: Slightly Favored
EldraziTron
G1: Even / Slightly Favored
G2/3: Favored
TitanShift
G1: Favored
G2/3: Favored
Zoo
G1: Unfavored
G2/3: Even / Slightly Favored
Death and Taxes
G1: Unfavored
G2/3: Unfavored
Grixis Control
G1: Favored
G2/3: Favored
Merfolk
G1: Heavily unfavored
G2/3: Unfavored
Knightfall
G1: Even
G2/3: Even
You will get better at guaging how each match up plays out with experience. Please feel free to scroll through all the post histories on this page for a wealth of information. Otherwise check out r/PonzaParty on Reddit or search for the Ponza FB group for more. I do think a traditional style without BBE is fine and viable, if not optimal.
Your questions were pretty broad so I'm going to leave you to test a bit and come up with some more specific questions. Good luck!
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
2-0 Gr Tron
0-2 GR Vengevine
2-0 GR Vengevine
2-0 Gr Tron
2-0 GR Moon Aggro
Second game vs GR Vengevine was so cool that I uploaded it on YouTube. You can watch it if you want.
Anyway BR Hollow One and GR Vengevine are tough matchups for Land Destruction.
Yeah I played an SCG IQ recently.
I got stomped by like 3 B/R Hollow One in the room...
One match was like:
Turn 1 Flameblade Adept.
Turn 2 ... doing some discard stuff, drop Hollow One and Tasigur... how do you even beat that.
I think Scavenging Ooze is kinda important here, he is body can help you do the blocking for few rounds, then you hope you draw your Titan to stable the field, but even with Ooze it is still a tough matchup.
Relics is actually worse than Ooze since it is not a creature, and sometimes you won't get to draw anything at all with Relics.
I also think R/G Eldrazi is quite of a tough deck to deal with, if they often have Birds/Hierarch turn 1, it is pretty rough, even if you destory their lands, they can still ramp very fast.
(Need to get Blood Moon out quick and hopefully you are on the play)
Obligator stealing your Infernal Titan to do a loop sided swing is even more painful to watch.
Modified deck a bit and played a great match against Comp. Modern League champion Beicodegeia (32 undefeated trophies this season) and his UR Storm. You can find decklist in "more info" video section.
Since we are in the market for some high impact 3-drops to compliment our current options, I thought I'd ask for the opinions of my fellow salt miners on the following gems;
Note that at the moment I'm considering these as possible replacements for Courser of Kruphix and Nissa, VoZ.
1) Scab-clan Berserker
She's haste threat that can come down off of a BBE. The damage triggers stack up quickly, and this girl is main-deckable storm hate.
I was reminded about Jayas original incarnation after the spoiler of her new Planeswalker card. I don't think the walker has a slot in Ponza, but the 3CMC version offers re-usable burn that can give free wins against Humans, or deal with any number of annoying Noble Heirarchs. 3 damage on a stick is nothing to scoff at. She also hoses Jace, and sweeps the board.
Since we are in the market for some high impact 3-drops to compliment our current options, I thought I'd ask for the opinions of my fellow salt miners on the following gems;
Note that at the moment I'm considering these as possible replacements for Courser of Kruphix and Nissa, VoZ.
I was reminded about Jayas original incarnation after the spoiler of her new Planeswalker card. I don't think the walker has a slot in Ponza, but the 3CMC version offers re-usable burn that can give free wins against Humans, or deal with any number of annoying Noble Heirarchs. 3 damage on a stick is nothing to scoff at. She also hoses Jace, and sweeps the board.
Scab-clan is too slow and only useful if you can get her out early. A similar card that I've tried and not like is Shaman of the Great Hunt
Jaya is also too slow. We also dont have cards to discard to activate her abilities that often.
I'm not too worried of 3CMC cards, ponza already play at least 12 of them between the moons, rains and trackers.
From DOM, I'm testing Howling Golem. The 3 toughness is a huge concern. Damping Sphere is interesting too as another way to slow burn down. My meta is burn, humans and hollow one infested currently.
Scab-Clan Berserker has done great work for me in the Skred SB. It is a powerful way to pressure a large variety of creature-light decks. In this role, it's a bit like Goblin Rabblemaster, though their relative effectiveness varies based on the specific opponent.
Now, does that make it a good choice in Ponza? I'm not sure. But I'd definitely be hesitant about throwing it in the MB, given how many decks it's bad against. My hunch is that Rabblemaster is generally better, as we are unlikely to get a lot of Berserker triggers if our deck is operating correctly.
are we really that hungry for more 3 drops? between 8 rains, 4 trackers and some of us are running voices and coursers, i think there are plenty.
I was looking at another aspect of the deck which our BBE doesn't play well with: the dorks.
They're so important on turns 1 and 2... and afterward we're not too hot on seeing them, or cascading into them. Side issue: 60% of them die to bolts and pushes.
I've been thinking of solving this problem by changing up 2 birds for Simian Spirit Guide.
Pros:
It enables 4 mana on turn 2 a lot more consistently. Arbor/Sprawl + guide in any combination will let you BBE or Acid-moss on turn 2.
It also makes the turn 2 blood moon/rain far more reliable, since they can't interact with it outside of discard.
When hit by BBE, its a 2/2 body.
Cons:
While it ignores removal in the early turns, the mana ramp is not repeatable.
For all its worth, 2/2 non-flying isn't the bee's knees. Still beats arbor elf or birds in terms of offensive power tho.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
are we really that hungry for more 3 drops? between 8 rains, 4 trackers and some of us are running voices and coursers, i think there are plenty.
I was looking at another aspect of the deck which our BBE doesn't play well with: the dorks.
They're so important on turns 1 and 2... and afterward we're not too hot on seeing them, or cascading into them. Side issue: 60% of them die to bolts and pushes.
I've been thinking of solving this problem by changing up 2 birds for Simian Spirit Guide.
Pros:
It enables 4 mana on turn 2 a lot more consistently. Arbor/Sprawl + guide in any combination will let you BBE or Acid-moss on turn 2.
It also makes the turn 2 blood moon/rain far more reliable, since they can't interact with it outside of discard.
When hit by BBE, its a 2/2 body.
Cons:
While it ignores removal in the early turns, the mana ramp is not repeatable.
For all its worth, 2/2 non-flying isn't the bee's knees. Still beats arbor elf or birds in terms of offensive power tho.
You forgot to mention 4 Moons which means typical lists play at least 14 3CMC spells if not more.
The SSG debate has been around from time to time in here but in short the answer is not worth it. It sounds good in theory but in actual testing most people find out that it isn’t great because not having the consistent mana source you can just stumble even more often. Example: you have 2 lands and a SSG with no other lands sure you can cast the Moon but then you are at 2 mana for your next turn and if you don’t hit your land in the next 2 turns you allow your opponent to climb back into the game. Now I can almost already hear your response saying well if the opponent bolts the bird or elf you are in the same boat. I will agree that is 100% true but not every game does your opponent have the removal spell. If they did this deck wouldn’t exist.
So let’s look at T3 in 2 land and a dork vs 2 land and a SSG. If dork lives you can play at least any 3 mana or less spell without drawing a land. If SSG is used then you are limited to 1-2 CMC spells (which some people do run a 1 of Scooze in the main now) if you don’t top deck a land.
But hey don’t take my word for it! I encourage you to do your own testing and to report back your findings.
MB Abrades provide security against Bridges, Lanterns, and Hollow One, and Sc.Ooze works to shore up the matches against aggro, Burn, and GY strategies. I know that it's traditional to run Chandra or Nissa, but I'm not sure they really fit the approach here, though Chandra might provide an alternate vector for winning.
MB Abrades provide security against Bridges, Lanterns, and Hollow One, and Sc.Ooze works to shore up the matches against aggro, Burn, and GY strategies. I know that it's traditional to run Chandra or Nissa, but I'm not sure they really fit the approach here, though Chandra might provide an alternate vector for winning.
Abrade is great in the format right now but I feel like you will want fewer of them, and probably in the Board.
MD Scooze I can get behind.
Chandra is definately is a win con and any replacement should also be able to do so. Nissa is completely flexible, it's a utility card.
Dropping to 1 bird seems greedy with 3 Stormbreath and 2 inferno titans. Could be fine though, I've toyed with going to 1 bird before!
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
now bogles is something special. Yea a chalice on 1 is probably one of the best things in our colors but I'm not sure I want to be fielding those if its just for bogles (see above paragraph for incoming storm hate). Blood Moon makes their life hard, and I think Fracturing Gust/Back to Nature can help you cover a few other match ups.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Bogles player here. Depending on the situation and player, G1,T1 Chalice on 1 is almost always a scoop; most experienced players have adapted as this has always been a glaring weakness and will MB some combination of 2cmc spells to get around it, usually Silhana Ledgewalker to get a hexproof creature down and a set of Spirit Mantle compared to the usual 1 in metas where Chalice is more prevalent. G2 we bring in Seal of Primordium, Krosan Grip, etc. Even if we manage to land a creature before Chalice hits the board, it's definitely an uphill battle considering most builds have zero MB cards with CMC > 2, aside from Leyline (and the occasional Unflinching Courage).
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Us: Land, ramp.
Them: Land, Boggle.
Us: Land, Chalice (X=1)
... goes pretty well for us. Whereas the sequence...
Them: Land, Boggle.
Us: Land, ramp.
Them: Land, Rancor and/or Armor and/or Umbra.
Us: Land, Chalice (X=1)
... goes much worse for us, because they can continue...
Them: Daybreak Coronet, attack.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
In either of those scenarios, whether the Ponza player is on the draw or play, a T1 Chalice on 1 will almost assure victory against Bogles. Ponza may slow itself down by now getting out a ramp piece first, but they'll ultimately win the war of attrition. Can't speak for other matchups, but Ponza running chalice is game, set, match vs Bogles. Regardless, if I had to choose between one or the other then I'm still taking Trinisphere over Chalice as a Ponza player.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
2-0 Gr Tron
0-2 GR Vengevine
2-0 GR Vengevine
2-0 Gr Tron
2-0 GR Moon Aggro
Second game vs GR Vengevine was so cool that I uploaded it on YouTube. You can watch it if you want.
Anyway BR Hollow One and GR Vengevine are tough matchups for Land Destruction.
My YouTube MTG Channel
Temur Tooth and Nail (feat. Kiora, Master of the Depths) deck topic and reddit thread.
From your meta;
Affinity
G1: Un-favoured
G2/3 Slightly Favored
Gx Tron
G1: Favored
G2/3 Favored
Burn
G1: Un-favored / Even
G2/3: Slightly Favored
Jeskai Control
G1: Favored
G2/3: Favored
UR Breach
G1: Unfavored
G2/3: Unfavored
UR Thing in the Ice
G1: Unfavored
G2/3: Unfavored
Counters Company
G1: Unfavored
G2/3: Slightly Favored
EldraziTron
G1: Even / Slightly Favored
G2/3: Favored
TitanShift
G1: Favored
G2/3: Favored
Zoo
G1: Unfavored
G2/3: Even / Slightly Favored
Death and Taxes
G1: Unfavored
G2/3: Unfavored
Grixis Control
G1: Favored
G2/3: Favored
Merfolk
G1: Heavily unfavored
G2/3: Unfavored
Knightfall
G1: Even
G2/3: Even
You will get better at guaging how each match up plays out with experience. Please feel free to scroll through all the post histories on this page for a wealth of information. Otherwise check out r/PonzaParty on Reddit or search for the Ponza FB group for more. I do think a traditional style without BBE is fine and viable, if not optimal.
Your questions were pretty broad so I'm going to leave you to test a bit and come up with some more specific questions. Good luck!
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Yeah I played an SCG IQ recently.
I got stomped by like 3 B/R Hollow One in the room...
One match was like:
Turn 1 Flameblade Adept.
Turn 2 ... doing some discard stuff, drop Hollow One and Tasigur... how do you even beat that.
I think Scavenging Ooze is kinda important here, he is body can help you do the blocking for few rounds, then you hope you draw your Titan to stable the field, but even with Ooze it is still a tough matchup.
Relics is actually worse than Ooze since it is not a creature, and sometimes you won't get to draw anything at all with Relics.
I also think R/G Eldrazi is quite of a tough deck to deal with, if they often have Birds/Hierarch turn 1, it is pretty rough, even if you destory their lands, they can still ramp very fast.
(Need to get Blood Moon out quick and hopefully you are on the play)
Obligator stealing your Infernal Titan to do a loop sided swing is even more painful to watch.
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
My YouTube MTG Channel
Temur Tooth and Nail (feat. Kiora, Master of the Depths) deck topic and reddit thread.
Note that at the moment I'm considering these as possible replacements for Courser of Kruphix and Nissa, VoZ.
1) Scab-clan Berserker
She's haste threat that can come down off of a BBE. The damage triggers stack up quickly, and this girl is main-deckable storm hate.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398461
2) Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
I was reminded about Jayas original incarnation after the spoiler of her new Planeswalker card. I don't think the walker has a slot in Ponza, but the 3CMC version offers re-usable burn that can give free wins against Humans, or deal with any number of annoying Noble Heirarchs. 3 damage on a stick is nothing to scoff at. She also hoses Jace, and sweeps the board.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=234707
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Scab-clan is too slow and only useful if you can get her out early. A similar card that I've tried and not like is Shaman of the Great Hunt
Jaya is also too slow. We also dont have cards to discard to activate her abilities that often.
I'm not too worried of 3CMC cards, ponza already play at least 12 of them between the moons, rains and trackers.
From DOM, I'm testing Howling Golem. The 3 toughness is a huge concern. Damping Sphere is interesting too as another way to slow burn down. My meta is burn, humans and hollow one infested currently.
Now, does that make it a good choice in Ponza? I'm not sure. But I'd definitely be hesitant about throwing it in the MB, given how many decks it's bad against. My hunch is that Rabblemaster is generally better, as we are unlikely to get a lot of Berserker triggers if our deck is operating correctly.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I was looking at another aspect of the deck which our BBE doesn't play well with: the dorks.
They're so important on turns 1 and 2... and afterward we're not too hot on seeing them, or cascading into them. Side issue: 60% of them die to bolts and pushes.
I've been thinking of solving this problem by changing up 2 birds for Simian Spirit Guide.
Pros:
It enables 4 mana on turn 2 a lot more consistently. Arbor/Sprawl + guide in any combination will let you BBE or Acid-moss on turn 2.
It also makes the turn 2 blood moon/rain far more reliable, since they can't interact with it outside of discard.
When hit by BBE, its a 2/2 body.
Cons:
While it ignores removal in the early turns, the mana ramp is not repeatable.
For all its worth, 2/2 non-flying isn't the bee's knees. Still beats arbor elf or birds in terms of offensive power tho.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
You forgot to mention 4 Moons which means typical lists play at least 14 3CMC spells if not more.
The SSG debate has been around from time to time in here but in short the answer is not worth it. It sounds good in theory but in actual testing most people find out that it isn’t great because not having the consistent mana source you can just stumble even more often. Example: you have 2 lands and a SSG with no other lands sure you can cast the Moon but then you are at 2 mana for your next turn and if you don’t hit your land in the next 2 turns you allow your opponent to climb back into the game. Now I can almost already hear your response saying well if the opponent bolts the bird or elf you are in the same boat. I will agree that is 100% true but not every game does your opponent have the removal spell. If they did this deck wouldn’t exist.
So let’s look at T3 in 2 land and a dork vs 2 land and a SSG. If dork lives you can play at least any 3 mana or less spell without drawing a land. If SSG is used then you are limited to 1-2 CMC spells (which some people do run a 1 of Scooze in the main now) if you don’t top deck a land.
But hey don’t take my word for it! I encourage you to do your own testing and to report back your findings.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Arbor Elf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Inferno Titan
Enchantment
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Blood Moon
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Cinder Glade
2 Mountain
8 Forest
Instant
4 Abrade
Sorcery
4 Stone Rain
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
2 Molten Rain
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Blood Moon
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Beast Within
3 Roast
3 Anger of the Gods
MB Abrades provide security against Bridges, Lanterns, and Hollow One, and Sc.Ooze works to shore up the matches against aggro, Burn, and GY strategies. I know that it's traditional to run Chandra or Nissa, but I'm not sure they really fit the approach here, though Chandra might provide an alternate vector for winning.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Abrade is great in the format right now but I feel like you will want fewer of them, and probably in the Board.
MD Scooze I can get behind.
Chandra is definately is a win con and any replacement should also be able to do so. Nissa is completely flexible, it's a utility card.
Dropping to 1 bird seems greedy with 3 Stormbreath and 2 inferno titans. Could be fine though, I've toyed with going to 1 bird before!
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB