2. Should I drop down to 22 land, perhaps adding Courser there? The primer hints that 21-22 land, with 3 dual-types is appropriate. That would mean dropping to 2x Stomping Ground.
3. What's the game plan against GDS? I imagine a resolved Death's Shadow is still bad news.
4. The primer recommends Obstinate Baloth. Is that really fast enough against Burn? I see its use against Liliana of the Veil and Reality Smasher, but I think we win those matches anyway. Zoo and Burn look more dicey.
5. Are Roast and Return good options, or do you think a few of these ought to be changed?
6. My experience has been that Primeval Titan, Courser, and Tracker are absurd together. Is this interaction silly here, or is it sufficiently useful to be incorporated?
2. Should I drop down to 22 land, perhaps adding Courser there? The primer hints that 21-22 land, with 3 dual-types is appropriate. That would mean dropping to 2x Stomping Ground.
3. What's the game plan against GDS? I imagine a resolved Death's Shadow is still bad news.
4. The primer recommends Obstinate Baloth. Is that really fast enough against Burn? I see its use against Liliana of the Veil and Reality Smasher, but I think we win those matches anyway. Zoo and Burn look more dicey.
5. Are Roast and Return good options, or do you think a few of these ought to be changed?
6. My experience has been that Primeval Titan, Courser, and Tracker are absurd together. Is this interaction silly here, or is it sufficiently useful to be incorporated?
I'll answer in order. Please keep in mind the primer is somewhat out of date.
1) Bonfire is not recommended over bolt if you decide to use BBE. Without BBE bonfire or bolt can be used, depending on your desired main deck focus.
2) 23 lands is too many. 22 lands is acceptable especially if you have a colorless land like KWR. 21 lands is stock standard. 4 fetch-able red sources is also considered minimum (1 mountain 3 stomping grounds for example).
3) Game plan against DS is to gain a board presence which can chump DS or threaten their life if they go too low, while locking them out of mana and then cleaning up.
4) Baloth can come down turn 2 or 3 against burn, which is indeed fast enough.
5) Roast is a good option. K-return is a trade off. You will curse the 1 less damage compared to Anger when your human opponent drops a lieutenant and his team gets 3 toughness, or against Dredge. You will praise it when it catches an Inkmoth Nexus or Vizier of Remedies at instant speed.
6) Prime Time is not the right titan for this deck. We aren't a lands-matter deck (Well, we are in a perverse way, just not the way that Prime Time needs to be worth it). I can see Prime Time as a 1-of fun-of. There is indeed nice incidental value with courser and tracker.
2. Should I drop down to 22 land, perhaps adding Courser there? The primer hints that 21-22 land, with 3 dual-types is appropriate. That would mean dropping to 2x Stomping Ground.
3. What's the game plan against GDS? I imagine a resolved Death's Shadow is still bad news.
4. The primer recommends Obstinate Baloth. Is that really fast enough against Burn? I see its use against Liliana of the Veil and Reality Smasher, but I think we win those matches anyway. Zoo and Burn look more dicey.
5. Are Roast and Return good options, or do you think a few of these ought to be changed?
6. My experience has been that Primeval Titan, Courser, and Tracker are absurd together. Is this interaction silly here, or is it sufficiently useful to be incorporated?
Welcome back to Ponza! It seems that the Primer needs to be updated. A lot has changed over recent months with the unbanning of BBE.
1.) Nobody really plays Bonfire anymore because it's a bad hit for Bloodbraid Elf
2.) Drop a Forest before you drop a Stomping Grounds. There are cards that you want RR for such as Molten Rain, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, and Inferno Titan.
3.) Blood Moon them. They play nothing but nonbasics most of the time. Beast Within is an option for removing their large threats.
4.) Kitchen Finks, Scavenging Ooze, Courser of Kruphix, and Trinisphere are good options against Burn.
5.) Once again, Beast Within is the removal card of choice. Some people play Lightning Bolt as well, since it's not a terrible hit off of BBE.
6.) Lots of people are playing 1 Courser and 4 Tracker. Tracker is really good for card advantage, which this deck never really had before. It's also nice to grow it and keep a Tarmogoyf from attacking.
It sucks when you get your Blood Moon Inquisitioned away on the play after playing an Arbor Elf, but it is so satisfying to top deck another one and still be able to drop it on turn 2! My UB Control opponent instascooped. Lolz.
It would be interesting to find statistics of Win Percentage if we are on draw and when we won the toss. I think it's terrible. I almost always lose 1-2 when I am on the draw.
It would be interesting to find statistics of Win Percentage if we are on draw and when we won the toss. I think it's terrible. I almost always lose 1-2 when I am on the draw.
I feel the same. We're very much favored when we win the die roll. But when the opponent gets to cast their 2 cmc spells unmolested or probably kill our dork, its pretty bad. See also: their T1 inquisition our only ramp spell which would otherwise be an awesome hand.
oh well. #mtglife #livebythedie #diebythedie
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Hello guys! does it ever take to you to side out some copies of blood moon against some decks that suffer it a lot (as for example Jund) just cause you know they will be playing around it and so play slower?
Short answer - no. Good card is good card.
So what is tha plan against jund? As expected I have a ton of them in my LGs and I side in finks, relic and ooze but no idea of what to side out. I took out the lightning bolts and I missed them when try to deal with dark confidant. Also tireless trackers gets bolted immediately providing few advantage
JUND
----
+1 Sorcerous Spyglass
+1 Thrun, The Last Troll
+2 Obstinate Baloth
+2 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Chandra, Flamecaller
-2 Courser of Kruphix
-1 Birds of Paradise
-1 Arbor Elf
-1 Tireless Tracker
Cutting mana creature against Jund is usually correct, as we are more likely to want better topdecks and they will usually die or get discarded. I can see cutting another one to be fine as well.
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
I'm noticing that adopting BBE seems pretty popular. I'm not sure it's for me, though.
I think about this comparison: BBE, at best, yields a 3/2, a lava spike (haste), and a Moon/Rain/Tracker/Bolt. But it can also be a 3/2 plus a ramp spell. Odds are typically about 2:1, in most builds. That's not bad, and can lead to some really aggressive and powerful plays.
On the other hand, MAW yields a guaranteed land destruction effect, plus ramp. That reliable ramp means you can more easily play cards like Dragons and Titans that take over a game quicker. It's easier to build around and plan with/for, but doesn't have the same unexpected game-flipping potential.
I think I'm going to stick with a traditional build for the moment. Not that there's anything wrong with BBE (as the results clearly show it's good), but it's just not as much my style.
I think too that cutting 1 dork can be ok. Moreover also 1-2 tracker cause they suddently die! Why do you cut coursier? They are decent blockers and provide a sort of card drawing.
Whoa, don't ever cut tracker against Jund.
1. They provide much needed card advantage in this 1-for-1 match up. Jund has bob, you have tracker.
2. They're actually pretty hard to kill with Fatal Push under a blood moon, and their bolts will be stretched to deal with early dorks, leaving them with Abrupt decays or Pulses if they want to get the job done, and we won't make those easy to cast either, we're a Moon deck.
3. Even if tracker gets bolted, if you played it right and on a turn where you can hold priority and drop a land, in the worst case she replaces herself and they're down a removal spell. In a better case you get 2 clues from a fetch and on your way to card advantage city.
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I'm noticing that adopting BBE seems pretty popular. I'm not sure it's for me, though.
I think about this comparison: BBE, at best, yields a 3/2, a lava spike (haste), and a Moon/Rain/Tracker/Bolt. But it can also be a 3/2 plus a ramp spell. Odds are typically about 2:1, in most builds. That's not bad, and can lead to some really aggressive and powerful plays.
On the other hand, MAW yields a guaranteed land destruction effect, plus ramp. That reliable ramp means you can more easily play cards like Dragons and Titans that take over a game quicker. It's easier to build around and plan with/for, but doesn't have the same unexpected game-flipping potential.
I think I'm going to stick with a traditional build for the moment. Not that there's anything wrong with BBE (as the results clearly show it's good), but it's just not as much my style.
I used to think about it that way too; that hitting ramp sucked. But if you stop to think about it; hitting that Ramp basically means you're not going to topdeck that ramp. That ramp also just got played for you, which is basically as though you cast a Mwonvuli acid moss but instead of land de, you got a 3/2 hasty. In that way, BBE actually is helping you speed thru those bad topdecks. If you flip 4 lands before you hit a ramp, you were basically going to lose that game and BBE saved you. Think about it. We don't have card selection. We're at the mercy of our libraries and thats why we have some nongames where we just flood or ramp out (which accounts for half our cards) and do one/two things or even nothing until we die.
To account for the loss of MAM, we run Molten rain which also comes off the BBE cascade. Its not as consistent in the Land Des department, but BBE's cascade more than makes up for it. As a bonus, we are more consistent in T2 land des now, since you will not always be getting that sweet sweet arbor into sprawl action. Starting hand with 2 lands and a sprawl and 2-3 rains can generate a lot of salt
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Top 8 in a monthly (38players) over the weekend. 4-1-1 into Top8 split.
Match 1 - UW Midrange W 2-0
Blood moons got me there. Drew 10 non forest lands in a row after I got a moon out in g2... while both of us were trying to top deck a basic. Match 2 - Naya Burn L 0-2
Burn dream hand. T2 Courser couldn't save me from a T4 death both games. Naya is way faster then Boros against Ponza. Match 3 - Grishoalbrand W 2-0
LDs, graveyard hate and opponent whiffing. Match 4 - Amulet Titan W 2-1
Blood moons. Win or lose by the moon. This match up got a lot better after the Moon ruling change since IMA Match 5 - Lantern Control W 2-0
BBEs got there before he can stablise. Match 6 - Dredge ID 0-0-3
Dredged some burgers.
Top 8
Lost to scapeshift. Didn't manage to land a moon and I got outplayed. T2 Moon > tracker > LD imo. I made the mistake of T2 LDing which slowed my clock against a ramp heavy scapeshift hand. Only LD if the land ia a Valakut.
Abrades could be lightning bolts in a different meta especially in a aether vial light meta. Courser may be removed for additional LDs as my current list is pretty weak to scapeshift, tron and burn decks if I'm unable to get a moon out. Currently 6-11 against scapeshift/tron decks post BBE unban. Next on the maybe list is primal command.
Sideboard wise, maybe removing either a shatterstorm or fracturing gust for more life gain. Then with my luck, my burn opponents switches to their affinity decks.
Trackers are removal magnets. The only time my trackers survived longer than a turn was against my amulet titan opponent.
Keep testing cards out for your own ponza instead of sticking to whatever netdeck list. Having a deck that suits your playstyle is better than any SCG/GP list. Different meta, different lists. 6 months ago, some players were bashing on trackers, Chandra TOD and PnKs. Look where these cards are now.
To the above posts on SBing against Jund, I remove my BoPs and LDs for all the graveyard hate in my SB. The plan is to outgrind a Jund player. Jund can only deal with Hazoret via discard or LotV -2.
I'm noticing that adopting BBE seems pretty popular. I'm not sure it's for me, though.
I think about this comparison: BBE, at best, yields a 3/2, a lava spike (haste), and a Moon/Rain/Tracker/Bolt. But it can also be a 3/2 plus a ramp spell. Odds are typically about 2:1, in most builds. That's not bad, and can lead to some really aggressive and powerful plays.
On the other hand, MAW yields a guaranteed land destruction effect, plus ramp. That reliable ramp means you can more easily play cards like Dragons and Titans that take over a game quicker. It's easier to build around and plan with/for, but doesn't have the same unexpected game-flipping potential.
I think I'm going to stick with a traditional build for the moment. Not that there's anything wrong with BBE (as the results clearly show it's good), but it's just not as much my style.
I used to think about it that way too; that hitting ramp sucked. But if you stop to think about it; hitting that Ramp basically means you're not going to topdeck that ramp. That ramp also just got played for you, which is basically as though you cast a Mwonvuli acid moss but instead of land de, you got a 3/2 hasty. In that way, BBE actually is helping you speed thru those bad topdecks. If you flip 4 lands before you hit a ramp, you were basically going to lose that game and BBE saved you. Think about it. We don't have card selection. We're at the mercy of our libraries and thats why we have some nongames where we just flood or ramp out (which accounts for half our cards) and do one/two things or even nothing until we die.
To account for the loss of MAM, we run Molten rain which also comes off the BBE cascade. Its not as consistent in the Land Des department, but BBE's cascade more than makes up for it. As a bonus, we are more consistent in T2 land des now, since you will not always be getting that sweet sweet arbor into sprawl action. Starting hand with 2 lands and a sprawl and 2-3 rains can generate a lot of salt
I'm not very experienced with the current iteration of Ponza or BBE, but I know that statistical analysis is a bit off. First, there is an equal chance that (a) BBE cuts through a bunch of bad topdecks, versus (b) wherever BBE takes us to has a bunch of bad topdecks waiting. The difference is that we now have a bit more knowledge of our odds (based on the cards we sent to the bottom). Second, MAM forces a shuffle right then while pulling out a land; this slightly improves the odds of not drawing dead (though not much); any stack of dead draws would be reshuffled, but we may still end up with a new one. Statistically, the odds of drawing dead are about the same.
I also don't see how BBE improves the odds of any land-destruction scenario (speed or volume) versus MAM. Turn 1 Elf, turn 2 Rain, turn 3 BBE into Rain does not look much different to me than a turn 3 MAM, save that you have a creature and may have hit your opponent, while the other can cast a Dragon or Titan next turn.
The question really is whether a guaranteed Winter's Grasp + Stomping Grounds is better than a guaranteed 3/2 Haste plus whatever your odds of different cards are. That, in turn, depends on three things: metagame, surrounding build, and preferred playstyle.
Top 8 in a monthly (38players) over the weekend. 4-1-1 into Top8 split.
Match 1 - UW Midrange W 2-0
Blood moons got me there. Drew 10 non forest lands in a row after I got a moon out in g2... while both of us were trying to top deck a basic. Match 2 - Naya Burn L 0-2
Burn dream hand. T2 Courser couldn't save me from a T4 death both games. Naya is way faster then Boros against Ponza. Match 3 - Grishoalbrand W 2-0
LDs, graveyard hate and opponent whiffing. Match 4 - Amulet Titan W 2-1
Blood moons. Win or lose by the moon. This match up got a lot better after the Moon ruling change since IMA Match 5 - Lantern Control W 2-0
BBEs got there before he can stablise. Match 6 - Dredge ID 0-0-3
Dredged some burgers.
Top 8
Lost to scapeshift. Didn't manage to land a moon and I got outplayed. T2 Moon > tracker > LD imo. I made the mistake of T2 LDing which slowed my clock against a ramp heavy scapeshift hand. Only LD if the land ia a Valakut.
Abrades could be lightning bolts in a different meta especially in a aether vial light meta. Courser may be removed for additional LDs as my current list is pretty weak to scapeshift, tron and burn decks if I'm unable to get a moon out. Currently 6-11 against scapeshift/tron decks post BBE unban. Next on the maybe list is primal command.
Sideboard wise, maybe removing either a shatterstorm or fracturing gust for more life gain. Then with my luck, my burn opponents switches to their affinity decks.
Trackers are removal magnets. The only time my trackers survived longer than a turn was against my amulet titan opponent.
Keep testing cards out for your own ponza instead of sticking to whatever netdeck list. Having a deck that suits your playstyle is better than any SCG/GP list. Different meta, different lists. 6 months ago, some players were bashing on trackers, Chandra TOD and PnKs. Look where these cards are now.
To the above posts on SBing against Jund, I remove my BoPs and LDs for all the graveyard hate in my SB. The plan is to outgrind a Jund player. Jund can only deal with Hazoret via discard or LotV -2.
I'm not crazy about Abrade mainboard with BBE. Seems like a recipe for a pretty disastrous misfire on an open board (exactly where you want to just go in with it). Still, seems like you already decided against it. Nice performance in the early round, and thanks for the reports and insights.
If that couldn't improve your view of, never mind sell, BBE to you, then nothing will. Its been said and somewhat agreed upon that BBE is consistency for this deck, if nothing else.
Before BBE unban, ponza was on the fringes as it always had been. Now its up there in top8s and day 2s competing and even beating the best of them. And every performing deck had 4 copies of BBE. So there's that.
Hi all - I haven't played Modern since Birthing Pod was banned way back when, but BBE getting unbanned made me pull the trigger and sleeve up Bloodbraid Ponza. Planning on taking it out for a spin for the first time this Friday. Anyhow, I was hoping someone(s) could critique my list and more importantly provide me with side boarding advice. I have a general idea of what decks exist in the format and how they play, but not sure what I'd be boarding in against who save the obvious. Anyhow, here's what I have built at the moment:
That's a pretty standard list. Not much to critique on without knowing your meta. I much prefer Nissa Voice over Wolf Run, but neither is objectively better, it just depends on whether u have a moon out.
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I think too that cutting 1 dork can be ok. Moreover also 1-2 tracker cause they suddently die! Why do you cut coursier? They are decent blockers and provide a sort of card drawing.
Jund players will discard your courser then play tarmogoyf as a 4/5 (Courser gives 2 card types by itself). The pseudo card advantage is nice vs. Jund too though, and it blocks BBE well. I can see keeping it.
But dorks definately get trimmed.
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
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GBx / Jund, Burn, Goblins/ Zoo, Merfolk, 8 Rack, Humans.
Edit: also, more recently, Hollow One and MAYBE Mardu Pyro if I see LOTV
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Arbor Elf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Inferno Titan
Enchantment
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Blood Moon
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Cinder Glade
2 Mountain
8 Forest
Instant
4 Abrade
Sorcery
4 Stone Rain
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
2 Molten Rain
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Blood Moon
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Beast Within
3 Roast
3 Anger of the Gods
I had a few more specific questions, particularly where the primer seems at odds with my instincts (and some decklists I've seen).
1. I noted that the primer recommended 3 Bonfire of the Damned over Bolts MD. Is that still the case? If so, that's an easy Courser of Kruphix spot.
2. Should I drop down to 22 land, perhaps adding Courser there? The primer hints that 21-22 land, with 3 dual-types is appropriate. That would mean dropping to 2x Stomping Ground.
3. What's the game plan against GDS? I imagine a resolved Death's Shadow is still bad news.
4. The primer recommends Obstinate Baloth. Is that really fast enough against Burn? I see its use against Liliana of the Veil and Reality Smasher, but I think we win those matches anyway. Zoo and Burn look more dicey.
5. Are Roast and Return good options, or do you think a few of these ought to be changed?
6. My experience has been that Primeval Titan, Courser, and Tracker are absurd together. Is this interaction silly here, or is it sufficiently useful to be incorporated?
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I'll answer in order. Please keep in mind the primer is somewhat out of date.
1) Bonfire is not recommended over bolt if you decide to use BBE. Without BBE bonfire or bolt can be used, depending on your desired main deck focus.
2) 23 lands is too many. 22 lands is acceptable especially if you have a colorless land like KWR. 21 lands is stock standard. 4 fetch-able red sources is also considered minimum (1 mountain 3 stomping grounds for example).
3) Game plan against DS is to gain a board presence which can chump DS or threaten their life if they go too low, while locking them out of mana and then cleaning up.
4) Baloth can come down turn 2 or 3 against burn, which is indeed fast enough.
5) Roast is a good option. K-return is a trade off. You will curse the 1 less damage compared to Anger when your human opponent drops a lieutenant and his team gets 3 toughness, or against Dredge. You will praise it when it catches an Inkmoth Nexus or Vizier of Remedies at instant speed.
6) Prime Time is not the right titan for this deck. We aren't a lands-matter deck (Well, we are in a perverse way, just not the way that Prime Time needs to be worth it). I can see Prime Time as a 1-of fun-of. There is indeed nice incidental value with courser and tracker.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Welcome back to Ponza! It seems that the Primer needs to be updated. A lot has changed over recent months with the unbanning of BBE.
1.) Nobody really plays Bonfire anymore because it's a bad hit for Bloodbraid Elf
2.) Drop a Forest before you drop a Stomping Grounds. There are cards that you want RR for such as Molten Rain, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, and Inferno Titan.
3.) Blood Moon them. They play nothing but nonbasics most of the time. Beast Within is an option for removing their large threats.
4.) Kitchen Finks, Scavenging Ooze, Courser of Kruphix, and Trinisphere are good options against Burn.
5.) Once again, Beast Within is the removal card of choice. Some people play Lightning Bolt as well, since it's not a terrible hit off of BBE.
6.) Lots of people are playing 1 Courser and 4 Tracker. Tracker is really good for card advantage, which this deck never really had before. It's also nice to grow it and keep a Tarmogoyf from attacking.
UG Infect
Modern
UG Infect
GW Infect
EDH
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
B Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
UG Infect
Modern
UG Infect
GW Infect
EDH
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion
B Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
My YouTube MTG Channel
Temur Tooth and Nail (feat. Kiora, Master of the Depths) deck topic and reddit thread.
I feel the same. We're very much favored when we win the die roll. But when the opponent gets to cast their 2 cmc spells unmolested or probably kill our dork, its pretty bad. See also: their T1 inquisition our only ramp spell which would otherwise be an awesome hand.
oh well. #mtglife #livebythedie #diebythedie
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This is my plan. And my list for reference.
Ponza (R/G): BBE / 7 Rain
Shared via TopDecked MTG https://www.topdecked.me/decks/e63594cf-d8b8-480f-9903-5ac1ca61f49f
JUND
----
+1 Sorcerous Spyglass
+1 Thrun, The Last Troll
+2 Obstinate Baloth
+2 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Chandra, Flamecaller
-2 Courser of Kruphix
-1 Birds of Paradise
-1 Arbor Elf
-1 Tireless Tracker
Cutting mana creature against Jund is usually correct, as we are more likely to want better topdecks and they will usually die or get discarded. I can see cutting another one to be fine as well.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I'll accept that to some degree, but I probably would always drop at least 1.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
I think about this comparison: BBE, at best, yields a 3/2, a lava spike (haste), and a Moon/Rain/Tracker/Bolt. But it can also be a 3/2 plus a ramp spell. Odds are typically about 2:1, in most builds. That's not bad, and can lead to some really aggressive and powerful plays.
On the other hand, MAW yields a guaranteed land destruction effect, plus ramp. That reliable ramp means you can more easily play cards like Dragons and Titans that take over a game quicker. It's easier to build around and plan with/for, but doesn't have the same unexpected game-flipping potential.
I think I'm going to stick with a traditional build for the moment. Not that there's anything wrong with BBE (as the results clearly show it's good), but it's just not as much my style.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Whoa, don't ever cut tracker against Jund.
1. They provide much needed card advantage in this 1-for-1 match up. Jund has bob, you have tracker.
2. They're actually pretty hard to kill with Fatal Push under a blood moon, and their bolts will be stretched to deal with early dorks, leaving them with Abrupt decays or Pulses if they want to get the job done, and we won't make those easy to cast either, we're a Moon deck.
3. Even if tracker gets bolted, if you played it right and on a turn where you can hold priority and drop a land, in the worst case she replaces herself and they're down a removal spell. In a better case you get 2 clues from a fetch and on your way to card advantage city.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I used to think about it that way too; that hitting ramp sucked. But if you stop to think about it; hitting that Ramp basically means you're not going to topdeck that ramp. That ramp also just got played for you, which is basically as though you cast a Mwonvuli acid moss but instead of land de, you got a 3/2 hasty. In that way, BBE actually is helping you speed thru those bad topdecks. If you flip 4 lands before you hit a ramp, you were basically going to lose that game and BBE saved you. Think about it. We don't have card selection. We're at the mercy of our libraries and thats why we have some nongames where we just flood or ramp out (which accounts for half our cards) and do one/two things or even nothing until we die.
To account for the loss of MAM, we run Molten rain which also comes off the BBE cascade. Its not as consistent in the Land Des department, but BBE's cascade more than makes up for it. As a bonus, we are more consistent in T2 land des now, since you will not always be getting that sweet sweet arbor into sprawl action. Starting hand with 2 lands and a sprawl and 2-3 rains can generate a lot of salt
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
4x Windswept Heath
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
8x Forest
1x Mountain
3x Stomping Ground
4x Arbor Elf
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Tireless Tracker
2x Courser of Kruphix
4x Bloodbraid Elf
2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Hazoret the Fervent
1x Inferno Titan
4x Stone Rain
2x Primal Command
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Blood Moon
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Anger of the Gods
3x Trinisphere
2x Obstinate Baloth
2x Shatterstorm
1x Fracturing Gust
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Top 8 in a monthly (38players) over the weekend. 4-1-1 into Top8 split.
Match 1 - UW Midrange W 2-0
Blood moons got me there. Drew 10 non forest lands in a row after I got a moon out in g2... while both of us were trying to top deck a basic.
Match 2 - Naya Burn L 0-2
Burn dream hand. T2 Courser couldn't save me from a T4 death both games. Naya is way faster then Boros against Ponza.
Match 3 - Grishoalbrand W 2-0
LDs, graveyard hate and opponent whiffing.
Match 4 - Amulet Titan W 2-1
Blood moons. Win or lose by the moon. This match up got a lot better after the Moon ruling change since IMA
Match 5 - Lantern Control W 2-0
BBEs got there before he can stablise.
Match 6 - Dredge ID 0-0-3
Dredged some burgers.
Top 8
Lost to scapeshift. Didn't manage to land a moon and I got outplayed. T2 Moon > tracker > LD imo. I made the mistake of T2 LDing which slowed my clock against a ramp heavy scapeshift hand. Only LD if the land ia a Valakut.
Potential changes - Abrade, Courser, , Primal Com, Shatterstorm. + Bolts, Molten?
Abrades could be lightning bolts in a different meta especially in a aether vial light meta. Courser may be removed for additional LDs as my current list is pretty weak to scapeshift, tron and burn decks if I'm unable to get a moon out. Currently 6-11 against scapeshift/tron decks post BBE unban. Next on the maybe list is primal command.
Sideboard wise, maybe removing either a shatterstorm or fracturing gust for more life gain. Then with my luck, my burn opponents switches to their affinity decks.
Trackers are removal magnets. The only time my trackers survived longer than a turn was against my amulet titan opponent.
Keep testing cards out for your own ponza instead of sticking to whatever netdeck list. Having a deck that suits your playstyle is better than any SCG/GP list. Different meta, different lists. 6 months ago, some players were bashing on trackers, Chandra TOD and PnKs. Look where these cards are now.
To the above posts on SBing against Jund, I remove my BoPs and LDs for all the graveyard hate in my SB. The plan is to outgrind a Jund player. Jund can only deal with Hazoret via discard or LotV -2.
I'm not very experienced with the current iteration of Ponza or BBE, but I know that statistical analysis is a bit off. First, there is an equal chance that (a) BBE cuts through a bunch of bad topdecks, versus (b) wherever BBE takes us to has a bunch of bad topdecks waiting. The difference is that we now have a bit more knowledge of our odds (based on the cards we sent to the bottom). Second, MAM forces a shuffle right then while pulling out a land; this slightly improves the odds of not drawing dead (though not much); any stack of dead draws would be reshuffled, but we may still end up with a new one. Statistically, the odds of drawing dead are about the same.
I also don't see how BBE improves the odds of any land-destruction scenario (speed or volume) versus MAM. Turn 1 Elf, turn 2 Rain, turn 3 BBE into Rain does not look much different to me than a turn 3 MAM, save that you have a creature and may have hit your opponent, while the other can cast a Dragon or Titan next turn.
The question really is whether a guaranteed Winter's Grasp + Stomping Grounds is better than a guaranteed 3/2 Haste plus whatever your odds of different cards are. That, in turn, depends on three things: metagame, surrounding build, and preferred playstyle.
I'm not crazy about Abrade mainboard with BBE. Seems like a recipe for a pretty disastrous misfire on an open board (exactly where you want to just go in with it). Still, seems like you already decided against it. Nice performance in the early round, and thanks for the reports and insights.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Before BBE unban, ponza was on the fringes as it always had been. Now its up there in top8s and day 2s competing and even beating the best of them. And every performing deck had 4 copies of BBE. So there's that.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
4x Arbor Elf
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Courser of Kruphix
3x Inferno Titan
2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Stormbreath Dragon
4x Tireless Tracker
Enchantment (8)
4x Blood Moon
4x Utopia Sprawl
Land (21)
8x Forest
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Mountain
3x Stomping Ground
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Molten Rain
4x Stone Rain
Instant (2)
2x Lightning Bolt
Planeswalker (1)
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Dismember
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Obstinate Baloth
2x Scavenging Ooze
3x Slagstorm
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Trinisphere
Any advice is welcome.
My Namesake: Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Jund players will discard your courser then play tarmogoyf as a 4/5 (Courser gives 2 card types by itself). The pseudo card advantage is nice vs. Jund too though, and it blocks BBE well. I can see keeping it.
But dorks definately get trimmed.
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URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza