Though I'm wondering what you're doing early since it's gonna take several turns to 'set up shop.' Assuming there's a good answer for that, I very much like it. Id never heard of burning vengeance before, looks like a sweet companion piece to Seismic Assault (even though I see your list has 0 of them). Might throwing some Assaults in there help? Or slow/clunk it down? Intriguing idea either way. I do love me some Gifts Ungiven in general.
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Formerly JacobsCabin, thank god the new site let me change it.
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern: GWGW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR R Robots with burn R
Has anyone discussed Commune with the Gods as an option in the reanimator lists? That might help you dig to Assault.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
The Leylines in the board are real life savers versus Burn and Zoo. I won a g3 versus Grissle Fists on the back of LLotV.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I've been playing this list for a bit, and honestly I don't really know what to think of it. I feel like it takes a little too long to get the engine running. Delver goyf and pyromancer probably isn't the best shell. Switching from Delver/Goyf beats to loam engines feels a bit clunky. Maybe it's pilot error but I can never quite figure out if I should be setting up loam assaults or playing goyfs and pyromancers when I have those and lootings/serums/cantrips with an assault in hand on turn 2/3.
Basically I altered SirStompAlot's list from the primer with -4 gitaxian, -1 flame jab -1 life from the loam -2 electrolyze, +4 thought scour, +3 izzet charm +1 faithless looting. Also altered the land base a bit.
I've been playing this list for a bit, and honestly I don't really know what to think of it. I feel like it takes a little too long to get the engine running. Delver goyf and pyromancer probably isn't the best shell. Switching from Delver/Goyf beats to loam engines feels a bit clunky. Maybe it's pilot error but I can never quite figure out if I should be setting up loam assaults or playing goyfs and pyromancers when I have those and lootings/serums/cantrips with an assault in hand on turn 2/3.
Basically I altered SirStompAlot's list from the primer with -4 gitaxian, -1 flame jab -1 life from the loam -2 electrolyze, +4 thought scour, +3 izzet charm +1 faithless looting. Also altered the land base a bit.
I'm a big advocate of running 4-of's Seismic Assault and Life from the Loam. It creates an engine that several decks just lose to and is the main point of running an Assault Loam deck. The other cards in the deck help you close out games by either digging for the core, disrupting until you assemble the core, or apply pressure so it's easier to close out games with the core. Running less just leads to inconsistency in your general game plan. It looks like the changes you made put a higher emphasis on digging which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but if you do nothing to interact with your opponent on the first few turns, you risk letting yourself slip behind on board state. Making it more difficult to stabilize after getting your core pieces together. Especially with the x/3s running around now that Zoo is coming back into popularity.
===
I ran this version of my ControLoam deck last night at my LGS:
I went 3-0-2 and took third place. The two draws were frustrating. The first one was against a friend of mine that was playing a Junk Good Stuff deck and game one took forever as he got a Scavenging Ooze to stick after I killed two other ones. It was really grindy but he won out. Game two I was able to stick an Assault after a very attrition filled early game and stabilize into a win. Game 3 started with 5 minutes left. It looked like I was going to win (Assault and Loam in hand) but it was too early to tell for certain. The second draw was against a BR Vampire deck because my opponent played at such a slow pace that it took 20 minutes to finish each game. Leaving us with not enough time to finish. Game 1 I dug through over half of my deck and couldn't find an Assault to save me, which happens from time to time. It was just unfortunate. Game 2 I was able to make 10 tokens off of Young Pyromancer. Which was fun and definitely powerful. I really liked him as an addition to the deck. Other than those two rounds I played against Naya Big Zoo, a BW Control brew, and Mono-W Hate Bears. Going 2-0 against them (though Mono-W Hate Bears scooped to me for prize splitting reasons).
Flame Jab felt really underwhelming to me. The mana investment in using it was just too awkward for my deck. The game where I pumped out a ton of tokens with Young Pyromancer was off of Loam and other spells. So I don't think it is a necessary part to that mini-engine. I'm going to cut it and go back to 4 Lightning Bolt and try out 4 Thought Scour.
The deck is still a ton of fun to play. Lots of technical decisions to make and rewards tight play. It just feels broken while playing it.
Friends, sadly I've decided to hang up the Reanimator package. I went 1-2 in my LGS Modern tournament tonight, losing to Goryo's Vengeance combo and Naya Zoo and beating UWR Midrange. I was competitive in all my matches, but today exposed the problem that typifies the deck: lack of focus. Trying to assemble either the Seismic Assault win OR the Reanimator win is just not the way to go. And Path to Exile is just too easy an answer to my primary win conditions. Against Zoo, for instance, I couldn't dillydally and play a Raven's Crime game because I would just die, so I had to try to reanimate quickly. Of course, I let my opponent keep too many cards in his hand, one of them being PtE. So I think I'm crossing over to creatureless Jund. Time to put away my Unburial Rites and sleeve up some Smallpoxes!
Creatureless Jund players, how do you feel about a couple maindeck Firespout and/or Anger of the Gods? And is there any other new tech you've been exploring with the new metagame?
I've been sticking to anger of the gods. The advantage being that it exiles the creatures killed meaning that is 1 less card type to feed the goyf, which makes goyf easier to manage as well.
It's 2:30am here, so I'm gonna hit the hay for now and respond in more detail in the am. But had to post and say I'm pretty fascinated with the idea of a reanimator package working in tandem w/ Aggro Loam! Do the 2 game plans not step on each others toes? I wasn't really looking to change my strategy, but the ability to play my favorite deck AND activate a Grieselbrand is an enticing prospect. lol I'll check out your list and reply to your post upon waking. G'night or g'morning!
If you were to attempt a build like that you would need to dedicate way too much to it and life from the loam isn't efficient enough to add a mill aspect. You would need to run cards such as stinkweed imp and other high number dredge cards. Using loam wouldn't quite work well enough for you. You'd also want draw engines most likely to get the mana you need to pull off such a combo with unburial rites. It's a neat idea, but I think it belongs in the modern deck creation forum as it would be inconsistent and too diluted to pull off in an assault loam shell.
I only have two Graven Cairns and probably won't be able to get four by Wednesday. How important is that playset to the function of the deck? Anything that I might be able to run over the two that I'm missing?
Honestly I don't think the deck would survive without the full set. Not trying to discourage you, but the RR/BB filtering is extremely key with this list. If you have them perhaps 1 fire-lit thicket and 1 twilight mire would work?
TThat's fine. I just wanted to know if I could get by without them or not. I ordered a couple online but I don't know if I'll get them before Wednesday. If I do, I'll play your list. Otherwise it'll wait a week. I'd rather play it how it's supposed to be instead of a slightly weaker version. I'm excited to give it a whirl though.
mykatdied, is there a reason you play Misty Rainforests over Scalding Tarns? All green fetches in a predominantly BR deck seems counterintuitive to me. And I would think being able to fetch for red sources to cast Seismic Assault would help.
Well I gave the creatureless deck a go on Wednesday. Rode it to a sad 1-2-1 record. I played against Jund, UB Mill, Junk Reanimator, and Black Tron. I only beat Jund. I went to time against Junk but I'm pretty sure he had it if we kept playing. To be fair though, I didn't put Graveyard hate in my sideboard (I opted for anti-Infect stuff as that's more prevalent but none of those players made it). Leylines would have helped a bit.
Best play of the night was turn 2 Smallpox on the draw against Jund. He played Dryad Arbor into Overgrown Tomb tapped. So he sac'd the Arbor and then Tomb. However, in almost every other match up, Smallpox seemed lackluster. While I was able to recur value off of it with Loam, I couldn't break the tempo hit. It set us both back to 1 land but the Lootings and Ravings I pitched have to have 3 mana to flashback. So it was slow getting back into the game when the opponents seemed to jump back in. On top of that, Raven's Crime and Flame Jab are extremely mana intensive. Getting hit by Smallpox actively hurt that engine. Which felt like a pretty significant nonbo.
Game 1 was amazing against every deck. I didn't lose a single game 1 but the follow up games were always insanely rough. I probably just need more experience with the deck but having such a linear strategy left the deck extremely susceptible to hate. I could only play around Graveyard hate so much. Having some creatures or things that didn't use mana to apply pressure would have been extremely helpful. Having to make the choice between activating a manland to apply pressure or Raven's Criming the opponent to keep their board in check was painful and often counter productive. I would have killed for a Goyf in several games.
I think there is a lot of good things going for the Creatureless list but the few nonbos I ran into made it difficult to get things rolling. I'm going to give it another try next week again. Maybe I can play better to avoid hitting myself with those plays but I don't think I played that poorly.
@Capt. Nick, I've experienced the same thing with Smallpox. In almost every circumstance, I wished it were Abrupt Decay or something else. Seeing as we're a pseudo combo-control deck, we need lots of mana to operate as opposed to, say, an aggro or midrange deck that can get by on two or three lands. I'm going to try a quasi-creatureless list with some number of Eternal Witnesses (two maybe?) and Commune with the Gods in place of Smallpox. That should allow us to find Seismic Assault more easily as well as recur mass removal or dredged Liliana of the Veils. Maybe something like this:
I haven't built a sideboard yet because I'm considering a transformational, creature-based one, hence the Kessig Wolf Run. I figure all the graveyard hate comes in and all the spot removal comes out, so I may want to try a dude plan to increase our game 2 and 3 odds. There probably isn't enough sideboard space to do that, but it could be effective. The question is how many creatures to bring in and which ones. Kitchen Finks comes to mind, as it's outstanding against Zoo. Perhaps a miser's Thrun, the Last Troll against UWR, but that matchup is already pretty favorable. Maybe we splash white for Knight of the Reliquary(?).
In all reality, I think you are better off just playing a creature based version of the deck. Applying pressure while also assembling the core cards gives your opponent too many things to fight off. I know Goyf is the biggest reason not to but I think it is still better to run creatures than not. Even though these decks run a ton of land, I still never find myself with more than 5 in play, with an average game seeing 3-4 in play. I just can't see myself putting lands into play when I would rather fuel other cards with them in hand. It's counter productive. These decks have a ton of available options in a turn but you can only make so many choices with the resources you have. The more actions you can perform in a turn makes your turns more powerful, which is why Assault is so good. For 2 mana you get to do 6 damage. Then you can also pump mana in to other spells.
In the decks splashing for Blue here, I think Oona's Grace is something worth looking into. It doesn't get you as good of digging power as Desperate Ravings but it allows you to turn your lands into Pseudo-Cycling Lands. It lets you play in response to grave hate by dredging at instant speed. I think it has potential. The mana cost has been a put-off for me but I think it is worth testing as a 2-of. Seems a lot more useful than Flame Jab to me. Possibly even Raven's Crime. I'll test it in my RUG deck once I get it put back together for the Wednesday following this coming Wednesday.
It's getting into 8-Rack territory but I think the creatureless builds would benefit more from having The Rack or Shrieking Affliction than Flame Jab. It doesn't kill your opponent's creatures but it'll clock them faster than Flame Jab while simultaneously letting you keep up the discard pressure of Raven's Crime. Then you can slam an Assault and finish them off. Just a thought.
I finally got to get a good play session going with my Jund Loam, pretty stock stuff with the Bobs and goyfs, yadda yadda. The question that came about is what are the Lilianas for, really? The deck already has a ton of discard, not even counting Crime recursion. The number of decks with a creature base small enough that "sac one creature of your choice" is rarely devastating. And even in long grindy matchups, which is where I assume Lili is supposed to shine, doesn't Assault Loam (the cards, not the name) kinda provide the enevitability? And if its to get stuff into the grave, everything we have that functions well in the yard can get there better by using it. Lol
I'm kind of guessing I'm missing or forgetting something, but my deck has 3 Lilis because research told me it should. But almost every time I saw it I was like "ew." Before I swap er for some abrupt decays or something, is there a case for that being a mistake? (Hell, I had removed 3 countryside crushers, would love those back!)
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Formerly JacobsCabin, thank god the new site let me change it.
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern: GWGW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR R Robots with burn R
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Though I'm wondering what you're doing early since it's gonna take several turns to 'set up shop.' Assuming there's a good answer for that, I very much like it. Id never heard of burning vengeance before, looks like a sweet companion piece to Seismic Assault (even though I see your list has 0 of them). Might throwing some Assaults in there help? Or slow/clunk it down? Intriguing idea either way. I do love me some Gifts Ungiven in general.
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern:
GW GW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG
RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR
R Robots with burn R
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Raging Ravine
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
2 Graven Cairns
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Sun Titan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Eternal Witness
3 Seismic Assault
4 Life from the Loam
2 Flame Jab
2 Raven's Crime
1 Darkblast
2 Unburial Rites
3 Lingering Souls
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Island
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
2 Borborygmos Enraged
4 Gifts Ungiven
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Faithless Looting
The Leylines in the board are real life savers versus Burn and Zoo. I won a g3 versus Grissle Fists on the back of LLotV.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Young Pyromancer
Instant/Sorcery (25)
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Faithless Looting
3 Flame Jab
3 Life from the Loam
3 Izzet Charm
3 Seismic Assault
Land (20)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steam Vents
2 Breeding Pool
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Raging Ravine
1 Island
1 Mountain
Basically I altered SirStompAlot's list from the primer with -4 gitaxian, -1 flame jab -1 life from the loam -2 electrolyze, +4 thought scour, +3 izzet charm +1 faithless looting. Also altered the land base a bit.
I'm a big advocate of running 4-of's Seismic Assault and Life from the Loam. It creates an engine that several decks just lose to and is the main point of running an Assault Loam deck. The other cards in the deck help you close out games by either digging for the core, disrupting until you assemble the core, or apply pressure so it's easier to close out games with the core. Running less just leads to inconsistency in your general game plan. It looks like the changes you made put a higher emphasis on digging which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but if you do nothing to interact with your opponent on the first few turns, you risk letting yourself slip behind on board state. Making it more difficult to stabilize after getting your core pieces together. Especially with the x/3s running around now that Zoo is coming back into popularity.
===
I ran this version of my ControLoam deck last night at my LGS:
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells: 25
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Flame Jab
3 Thought Scour
2 Spell Pierce
3 Deprive
3 Izzet Charm
4 Life from the Loam
4 Seismic Assault
1 Jace Beleren
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Copperline Gorge
1 Raging Ravine
2 Cascade Bluffs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Spellskite
2 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Back to Nature
2 Dismember
1 Deprive
2 Engineered Explosives
I went 3-0-2 and took third place. The two draws were frustrating. The first one was against a friend of mine that was playing a Junk Good Stuff deck and game one took forever as he got a Scavenging Ooze to stick after I killed two other ones. It was really grindy but he won out. Game two I was able to stick an Assault after a very attrition filled early game and stabilize into a win. Game 3 started with 5 minutes left. It looked like I was going to win (Assault and Loam in hand) but it was too early to tell for certain. The second draw was against a BR Vampire deck because my opponent played at such a slow pace that it took 20 minutes to finish each game. Leaving us with not enough time to finish. Game 1 I dug through over half of my deck and couldn't find an Assault to save me, which happens from time to time. It was just unfortunate. Game 2 I was able to make 10 tokens off of Young Pyromancer. Which was fun and definitely powerful. I really liked him as an addition to the deck. Other than those two rounds I played against Naya Big Zoo, a BW Control brew, and Mono-W Hate Bears. Going 2-0 against them (though Mono-W Hate Bears scooped to me for prize splitting reasons).
Flame Jab felt really underwhelming to me. The mana investment in using it was just too awkward for my deck. The game where I pumped out a ton of tokens with Young Pyromancer was off of Loam and other spells. So I don't think it is a necessary part to that mini-engine. I'm going to cut it and go back to 4 Lightning Bolt and try out 4 Thought Scour.
The deck is still a ton of fun to play. Lots of technical decisions to make and rewards tight play. It just feels broken while playing it.
Creatureless Jund players, how do you feel about a couple maindeck Firespout and/or Anger of the Gods? And is there any other new tech you've been exploring with the new metagame?
I don't have the cards to pull this off, but I think humans + Angel of Glory's Rise is a good way to go about doing an aggro/reanimator strategy. Humans gives us Experiment One, Dark Confidant, Knight of the Reliquary, Young Pyromancer, Champion of the Parish, Grim Lavamancer, Delver of Secrets, etc. Many of the best creatures that have been mentioned in this thread already are humans anyways, so why not take advantage of that?
You could also try human allies + Angel of Glory's Rise. Allies can play the aggro game, and then they become totally nuts when you get a mass recursion with Angel of Glory's Rise. Humans also gives you some interesting side board options like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or Magus of the Moon.
Also, mykatdied, what is your current Creatureless Loam list? I want to take that style deck to my local store next Wednesday.
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Graven Cairns
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Raging Ravine
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Desperate Ravings
4 Faithless Looting
2 Flame Jab
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Life from the Loam
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Raven's Crime
3 Seismic Assault
4 Smallpox
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Damnation
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Trading Post
Best play of the night was turn 2 Smallpox on the draw against Jund. He played Dryad Arbor into Overgrown Tomb tapped. So he sac'd the Arbor and then Tomb. However, in almost every other match up, Smallpox seemed lackluster. While I was able to recur value off of it with Loam, I couldn't break the tempo hit. It set us both back to 1 land but the Lootings and Ravings I pitched have to have 3 mana to flashback. So it was slow getting back into the game when the opponents seemed to jump back in. On top of that, Raven's Crime and Flame Jab are extremely mana intensive. Getting hit by Smallpox actively hurt that engine. Which felt like a pretty significant nonbo.
Game 1 was amazing against every deck. I didn't lose a single game 1 but the follow up games were always insanely rough. I probably just need more experience with the deck but having such a linear strategy left the deck extremely susceptible to hate. I could only play around Graveyard hate so much. Having some creatures or things that didn't use mana to apply pressure would have been extremely helpful. Having to make the choice between activating a manland to apply pressure or Raven's Criming the opponent to keep their board in check was painful and often counter productive. I would have killed for a Goyf in several games.
I think there is a lot of good things going for the Creatureless list but the few nonbos I ran into made it difficult to get things rolling. I'm going to give it another try next week again. Maybe I can play better to avoid hitting myself with those plays but I don't think I played that poorly.
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Copperline Gorge
3 Graven Cairns
1 Raging Ravine
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Eternal Witness
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
Enchantments (3)
3 Seismic Assault
Spells (25)
4 Faithless Looting
3 Raven's Crime
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Flame Jab
2 Desperate Ravings
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Life from the Loam
2 Commune with the Gods
2 Anger of the Gods
I haven't built a sideboard yet because I'm considering a transformational, creature-based one, hence the Kessig Wolf Run. I figure all the graveyard hate comes in and all the spot removal comes out, so I may want to try a dude plan to increase our game 2 and 3 odds. There probably isn't enough sideboard space to do that, but it could be effective. The question is how many creatures to bring in and which ones. Kitchen Finks comes to mind, as it's outstanding against Zoo. Perhaps a miser's Thrun, the Last Troll against UWR, but that matchup is already pretty favorable. Maybe we splash white for Knight of the Reliquary(?).
In the decks splashing for Blue here, I think Oona's Grace is something worth looking into. It doesn't get you as good of digging power as Desperate Ravings but it allows you to turn your lands into Pseudo-Cycling Lands. It lets you play in response to grave hate by dredging at instant speed. I think it has potential. The mana cost has been a put-off for me but I think it is worth testing as a 2-of. Seems a lot more useful than Flame Jab to me. Possibly even Raven's Crime. I'll test it in my RUG deck once I get it put back together for the Wednesday following this coming Wednesday.
It's getting into 8-Rack territory but I think the creatureless builds would benefit more from having The Rack or Shrieking Affliction than Flame Jab. It doesn't kill your opponent's creatures but it'll clock them faster than Flame Jab while simultaneously letting you keep up the discard pressure of Raven's Crime. Then you can slam an Assault and finish them off. Just a thought.
I'm kind of guessing I'm missing or forgetting something, but my deck has 3 Lilis because research told me it should. But almost every time I saw it I was like "ew." Before I swap er for some abrupt decays or something, is there a case for that being a mistake? (Hell, I had removed 3 countryside crushers, would love those back!)
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern:
GW GW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG
RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR
R Robots with burn R