I like to think of it as part of my portfolio. If you don't trust the dollar you've got to put your money somewhere else. Shocks seem like a good idea because they are only going to go up once they rotate out of standard. I think I'll grab fetches when they are reprinted again.
Or dare one say far more important for this deck specifically.
Two more quick questions:
1. I've seen a few lists running 2 Inquisition of Kozileks. That seems like a strange number for that card. What are we looking for running 2 Inquisitions? Just really hoping we draw one early? Or just hoping to hold one until we're able to play a Seismic Assault (or whatever spell happens to be key at a given moment) to peek and see if they're prepared to counter it? OR is the point that we actually run 4 peek-n-deny cards but only maindeck half of it (2 Thoughseize in the board), and decide for game 2 if we want 0 or 4?
I'm running 3, and 3 usually means, "I'd really like to get one, but rather not multiples." And if I can shave one off and have that be stretgically STRONG, I'd like to do so. But I don't wanna touch 'em until I've heard a good rationale for why 2 makes sense. 0, 3, and 4 make sense. 2... what is the point?
(note, I'm very much assuming there IS a point and that I'm wrong, lest I appear authoritatively ignorant. The worst kind of ignorance. lol)
2. How do you guys feel about the land count, specifically for the standard Jund-colored Seismic Loam (as opposed to the creative variants like the Reanimators, Capt. Nick's RUG, etc)? I see a whole bunch of 26, and a whole bunch of 28. I kinda figure both ways must work fine, but figure for this kind of deck, erring on the side of more land is the safer bet. I split the difference and went w/ 27 for now. lol After asking for and receiving some land-based advice above, I currently have my manabase as follows. Very much open to input/comments/criticisms/compliments/steak tacos.
This is one fetch more and one Blackleave Cliffs less than most mana bases I've seen around. If that ends up a horrible mistake somehow, I'm happy to switch em. If I were to be told 28 is the consensus best, I feel like Raging Ravine or another Stomping Ground would be the way to go. If I were told theory dicates 26 is the number, I'd probably shave the 3rd Tarn. And if I were told that my choice of 27 ushered in a new paradigm and turned the very Modern format on its head, I'd likely nod slowly.
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Formerly JacobsCabin, thank god the new site let me change it.
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern: GWGW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR R Robots with burn R
@SnackCakes(GM), I was thinking the same thing about Inquisition of Kozilek. I run the Reanimator build, and I've been trying 2 maindeck IoKs and 2 sideboard Thoughtseizes. So far I've liked that configuration. I run 3 maindeck Raven's Crimes and 2 (but sometimes 3) Liliana of the Veil as well, so the IoKs are more of a game 1 insurance policy/hedge. Then again, I'm trying to put most of my deck into my graveyard and combo off with Unburial Rites. Plus, targeted discard is generally a poor topdeck if the game goes long, as I will have probably been extensively Crime-ing already. I'm curious what others think about the targeted discard package.
Regarding land count, I've found 26 or 27 to be a good number. Right now, I'm playing 26 lands (7 fetchlands) and 1 Mulch:
Looking at your mana base, six filter lands seems like a lot. I'd be worried about the 2-filter openers that would normally be keeps but end up as mulligans. How have they treated you so far? I also play a second Ghost Quarter and (sometimes) a Bojuka Bog in the sideboard.
It's 2:30am here, so I'm gonna hit the hay for now and respond in more detail in the am. But had to post and say I'm pretty fascinated with the idea of a reanimator package working in tandem w/ Aggro Loam! Do the 2 game plans not step on each others toes? I wasn't really looking to change my strategy, but the ability to play my favorite deck AND activate a Grieselbrand is an enticing prospect. lol I'll check out your list and reply to your post upon waking. G'night or g'morning!
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Formerly JacobsCabin, thank god the new site let me change it.
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern: GWGW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR R Robots with burn R
It's really fun to play. The deck can play a game of attrition or combo off quickly. I still run 2 maindeck Seismic Assaults to diversify my win conditions. I typically don't see too much anti-synergy, as I want to win by chucking lands with either Assault or Borborygmos Enraged. Here's my list right now:
I'm still unsure about the Stinkweed Imp. It turns on our opponents' Lightning Bolts/Lightning Helixes, and now that Zoo with all that burn will be a thing again, I'm not sure Imp is where I want to be. But dredging five cards can be (and has been) really strong sometimes. It might be better as another sweeper or another Drown in Filth, I dunno. I also used to play 1 Sun Titan, but I found that you don't always get to live the dream and recycle Liliana of the Veil. Most often, I wished it were any other creature.
It would be great to have someone else working on a Reanimator list!
When you're putting together a mana base for these decks, think about what colors you need to hit while having 3 lands in play. As well as what order you need to hit those colors. So in the Jund builds you are going to want Black and/or Red on turn 1 (so fetching into Blood Crypt or Blackcleave Cliffs). Turn 2 you have Bob, Goyf or Loam. You won't always need the Green that turn but having it available is probably a good idea. So lets say fetching into Stomping Ground. At turn 3 we have Liliana or Assault. Making you want access to double Black and/or triple Red. Filter lands, another fetch or Ghost Quatering your own lands will get you to that color requirement. Ideally you would like to have 2x B/R duals and a G/R dual. That's where the fetches come in very handy and are so important to this deck's strategy. Filter lands and Fast lands allow you to cheat on this damage a bit since running more than 8-10 fetches gets to be too damaging and thins your diversity.
I really like the filter lands but I'd highly advise against running more than three. Their inability to activate each other for colored mana leads to consistency issues. Pick a color combination that is most important and stick to it. So for Jund Loam, I'd say run 2-3 Graven Cairns to help you hit Assault more consistently as well as Liliana.
I have been a huge fan of running a 2/1/1 split on Shocks and Basics. In my RUG list I have 2 Steam Vents, 1 Stomping Ground, and 1 Breeding Pool along with 2 Island, 1 Mountain, and 1 Forest. Most games, I'd like to see 2 Vents and 1 Stomping Ground. Breeding Pool is rarely ever used but the closet cases where it is useful, I'm glad I have it. Just because of the success I've had with this set up in my own build, I'd recommend it for others as well. Not necessarily in the exact color distribution since the color requirements for my deck are different than say Jund, where there is a much higher emphasis on B/R mana. You can get away with just one Green source there then just focus on your B/R requirements.
As far as utility lands go, I think it is a really good idea to run 2-3 MB Ghost Quarter. Tron is a serious deck and having a MB answer to their mana base is not to be underestimated. I keep the 4th Ghost Quarter in the side just to make sure the Quarter+Loam lock happens in games 2 and 3. Manlands are solid and I really like Raging Ravine. It's mana intensive, but he can finish games quickly when needed. Lavaclaw Reaches is alright as well but it's always been a fairly underwhelming card. It also nonbos with our general strategy of playing very few lands. I haven't tested with Treetop Village in this deck but I have in others and it's really solid but the lack of color fixing is a pretty big negative. Dakmor Salvage is another one that I haven't tested in a Modern environment (though I've played it in my Tiny Leaders Loam deck with decent results but that's a different build). In the Creatureless builds that operate almost entirely out of the graveyard and like Monster's Reanimator build that wants to self mill aggressively I think it can be a good fit, but in the other midrange strategies, the Dredge isn't particularly advantageous. So the value of drawing a single land for a turn is a bit less useful than it would be in other strategies.
That ended up being a lot more typing than I initially thought I'd be doing... Haha. Here's a brief outline of how I'd recommend building a land base for 3-color versions of this deck:
7-10 Fetches (personally I prefer 8)
2/1/1 split on Shocks and Basics
3-4 Fast Lands
2-3 Filter Lands
1-3 Ghost Quarter
1-2 Man Land
0-3 Flex Slot Utility Lands (Urborg, Dakmor Salvage, Horizon Canopy, etc)
Capt. Nick: That's interesting regarding the number of filter lands, only because most of my mana base is pretty much a direct port of the lists Ive seen around, be it from articles, this thread, wherever. It seems like the 4 Graven Cairns, 1 Fire-Lit, and 1 Twilight Mire are pretty much all over the place. They almost all also have 6 fetches, but I too found that to be a bit low and added a 7th. Though there's a bit of a fine line between number of fetches and number of targets. lol I agree with the Shock/basic splits, though I do think having two Stomping Ground makes perfect sense. Only reason I don't is, again, because most of the 'established lists' don't.
I have no problem running a man land, but think Raging Ravine seems to make more sense than the Lavaclaws I see in most lists, for precisely the reason you gave (the non-bo). I'm also extremely happy to see your thought process on the colors (ie. what we want to do on which turn), as it's EXACTLY how I've approached it too. It's also the reason I'm surprised to see Misty Rainforests in some (Jund) lists when they could be Scalding Tarns or Arid Mesas. Obviously having Mistys shouldn't have dire consequences or anything, but between already having 4 Verdant Catacombs and enough Green-split duals, feels like the priority should be on red availability. <shrug>
TheMonster:
I really do dig the idea! Looking at the list, my first impulse is to suggest tweaking the mana base for Blue availability and jam in some Gifts Ungivens. My second impulse is to assure you that I'm just joking. Hehe
Does anyone else run this list, or at least concept? Or is it all your own? I'm trying to id what is 'lost' by going this route, looks like Bobs and Goyfs. The irony being that one could make the statement, "I removed the 2 best creatures ever printed to make way for some better creatures." lol Borborygmos is bad ass, too!
I like the idea because of how much it goes all-in on the idea of putting our library, umm, all-in, our graveyard. lol Personally I feel like I'd want to find a way to fit in at least a 3rd Seismic Assault, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that I just love Assault-Loam, and that would kinda reinforce the idea that that is still what I'm playing. I'm just thinkin out loud, so if doing so tarnishes the deck's smoothness, obviously leave it alone. lol
It's another situation where I feel like I just have to find a way and time to sit and play some games before making judgements. The idea deserves better than Theory Fighter. But as long as you don't often find your hand, yard, and board state as a hinderance to one angle or the other, it just looks really strong and fun. If I were to play the sceptic (angel's advocate? lol), I'd ask if just going the Goryo's Vengeance reanimator route isn't just faster and more to the point. BUT, even if the answer to that is yes, it likely wouldn't be as much fun.
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Formerly JacobsCabin, thank god the new site let me change it.
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern: GWGW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR R Robots with burn R
No Gifts Ungiven! haha Take it from a guy who tried it.
Owen Turtenwald and Travis Woo messed with the idea, which is where I got it from, but I play much more removal than them to give us a little more versatility and make us less all-in on the combo. Their lists, for example, played zero Seismic Assaults, and Woo played four Stinkweed Imps. There's an argument to be made for a third Assault (and Liliana of the Veil), but since I'm binning so many cards, I don't want to play TOO many cards that don't do anything while in the graveyard. I view Assault more as an insurance policy. I messed around with one Sun Titan to bring back Assaults and Lilianas, and I may go back to that eventually if it proves to be better. But most often I wished Titan was any other idiot because Assault or Liliana aren't always in the graveyard; we can just draw into the combo with Griselbrand, for instance. I'd like to hear other opinions, though.
This deck is less of a glass cannon than the Goryo's builds, as it can win from the graveyard or the battlefield. I've won games where we exchanged resources, then Life from the Loam got Extirpated, and I swung four times with Raging Ravine, for example.
It would be wonderful to have someone else working on a Reanimator list - I'm calling it "Loam-borygmos." There are some slots in the 75 I'm unsure about still, and there are probably angles I haven't even thought of yet. The more minds on the case, the better. SnackCakes(GM), you with me?
I cant really commit yet to putting the thing together, though Im tempted, and again... feels like it needs some actual testing rather than just theory. BUT, I can say that rather than Sun Titan, maybe just Eternal Witness(es)? I kinda want to fit one of them in my regular Assault Loam list. Guess it depends if the idea was to cast Sun Titan or Reanimate 'em. If the latter, then nevermind Just hard to make any value judgements w/o sleevin' it up.
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Formerly JacobsCabin, thank god the new site let me change it.
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern: GWGW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR R Robots with burn R
From my testing, I'd only play Eternal Witness if I'm also playing Sun Titan (which is almost always getting reanimated). I just want to blank opposing removal as much as possible, and I'm starting to lean towards T3 sweeper (Anger of the Gods), Seismic Assault or a Faithless Looting/Life from the Loam turn. Plus, GG on T3 is pretty hard to come by because I want lots of B and R and want to have W available the turn before I combo off so my opponent can't, say, respond to a fetchland trigger on my combo turn if they let me get to my main phase. But if you sleeve this thing up and find a configuration that makes E-Dub work, let me know!
Yeah the Witness comment was hasty, wasn't really thinkin about the mana. As for the sweeper you're looking for, maybe Pyroclasm? Dunno if it lets live too many relevant things, though for a turn 3 sweeper, probably won't too too often.
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Formerly JacobsCabin, thank god the new site let me change it.
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern: GWGW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR R Robots with burn R
First of all, I have never played Assault Loam before and after some testing I can say that it's really fun a has a lot of nice synergies. I think I also have never played a deck with such a difficult mana base. I got some really good tips for that on the last few pages of this thread that helped me a lot while throwing this deck together but if anyone hase some tips for me I'm glad to hear them.
Some explantations for the deck list. After deciding to play white, I thought I gonna do it right and added KotR and LS. Both have really nice synergies in this deck. KotR is usually even bigger than Goyf and also provides us some nice tutoring for Horizon Canopy (lets you Dredge your Loam while still being able to draw a card, Ghost Quarter, Raging Ravine and stuff like Bojuka Bog in the Side.
The whole deck is quite dredgy so LS are just great CA, buy time or close out out long games.
The sad part is that I realized that the reanimator way seems to be no good. I lost most games while testing because it took me just too much time to assemble my main Wincon. And that is bad. Also it's another strategy that relies on the graveyard, which makes the deck even more vulnerable to hate. It also needs whole 7 spaces in the deck, way too many in my opinion.
I think I'm gonna try the original Seismic Assault way with Commune with the Gods next. (Makes the Manabase even harder:D).
Some instant removal could be nice too (probably Abrupt Decay).
Someone mentioned the idea of playing Young Pyromancer earlier here, how are the opinions on that card? Vulnerable to removal yeah, but I like the idea of having a non-graveyard-based Plan B.
Like I said, I'm new to the deck, tips are gladly seen
rayo, that's why I play two Seismic Assaults in my list - to diversify our win conditions and give us more access to land-chucking. I also noticed that you don't play Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, a card I've found to be invaluable in the Reanimator strategy. You could also use ways to put your fatties in the graveyard like Lightning Axe and Liliana of the Veil. A couple maindeck sweepers could probably help give you more game against aggro strategies.
Also, if you're gonna play Knight of the Reliquary, (which I like,) I might suggest running more than five lands with type "Plains" and "Forest." I might be wrong, but I have a hunch.
Lingering Souls worked for you, eh? I've always found them to be awkward, especially because of the way my mana develops in the first three turns; most often I want to either play Liliana, sweep with Anger of the Gods or set up a T4 combo. And they frequently chump-blocked, so I'd rather just play a removal spell to deal with that threat or something to abet the graveyard plan. Yeah, they were occasionally ridiculous with Elesh Norn, but those games were rare. If someone can find a configuration that makes Souls awesome, I'm all ears because I want them to be good!
The way I see the deck is more of a control shell with inevitability as opposed to something like Splinter Twin or Goryo's Vengeance that wants to rush it out there.
I wasn't really aware of the fact that I only play 5 Forest/Plains for KotR definetely need to work on that.
One of my biggest problems about the whole reanimator package is that without Gifts Ungiven I need to mill two pieces into my graveyard. If want to be able to do that consistently I need to play more copies of them in my deck (Unlike with Gifts, the deck plays usually only two fatties and one Unburial Rites). The fact that I need to run a package of 7-8 cards to make it work annoys me in combination with the fact that I honestly never want to draw (not even to mill) two Rites or two Boborygmos. I tried out Elesh Norn as a one of like in your build, but she felt really out of place as a not-searchabble one-of. Maybe I should play the two Assaults instead of Borborygmos but but 2-3 Elesh Norn and/or Sun Titan? Seems worth consideration (Elesh Norn is a game winner in herself. She hits the Field and creature baed decks ust Scoop. Borborygmos needs either a Loam or a hand filled with lands to be really good).
Like I said, my build plays quite dredgy and that's exactly the point why I like my LS. They have flashback. I did not found any good removal that can offer me that. Maybe I'm gonna go down to 3 to make some room for other stuff but I really like them.
I never really found me in a situation where I didnt find a way to discard my Reanimator parts. Faithless Looting already does a really good Job with that. So I don't consider Lightning Axe to be that helpful. Liliana on the other hand is still a damn good card that needs to be tried out.
All in all thanks for the Input, think I'm gonna brew some new Versions together now.
Ya know, now that you mention it, going down to 2 Borborygmos Enraged in favor of another fatty might be a good idea. There have been numerous instances where I could reanimate B.E. but didn't have lands in hand. A second Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite could be good in this new meta of X/1s and Wild Nacatls. I've always been hung up on Sun Titan; some games it's a straight-up "do nothing," while occasionally I get to chain Liliana of the Veils or bring back a milled Seismic Assault. If you decide to test it, I'm curious about your opinion. Did you try Griselbrand at all? I've found the lifelink to be very relevant, and drawing seven cards ain't too shabby either. And I may try to rework my list to incorporate Lingering Souls, especially if playing the second Elesh Norn turns out to be better. I may not, though, because I want to play maindeck sweepers.
Yeah. That got suggested about a year ago and I gave it a whirl. It wasn't bad but it didn't pull you back into a game when you were behind and it only really helped when you were ahead of the opponent. So I deemed it as win more. The problem was that you couldn't put lands back into play fast enough to offset bouncing them. It lent itself to losing your board pressence for cards that you then would have trouble playing. So unless you were already comfortably ahead of the opponent and could afford to play lands instead of pitching them to Assault, it didn't do much. Cool card though.
Gifts is basically for value, hence all the one-ofs, no reanimator shennanigans. The deck features a lock down that you can search for with gifts: raven's crime, alchemist's refuge, dakmor salvage and life from the loam. You just activate refuge during your opponent's draw step and flash raven's crime, discarding dakmor salvage or any land for retrace. That way your opponent will discard his card in top deck mode (easy to achieve with raven's crime) without having the chance to cast it (unless it is an instant). If you have a burning vengeance you can win the game this way, just dredge back dakmor salvage or loam with enought mana. Alchemist's refuge is also pretty sweet with flame jab or sweepers if you have enough mana.
Gifts can get you 2 sweepers, 2 removal spells, worm harvest for the win, retrace spells + loam, and so on. That's pretty good value
Izzet charm is another reason for the blue splash, the looting effect is pretty powerful in this deck and the other two mode can be useful too from time to time.
So, thoughts?
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Legacy: UBRG Czech Pile, WWW Death & Taxes, many other things
Modern: UBR Grixis, RWG Burn, UR UR Storm, BBB 8 Rack, whatever other control deck I can force
Multiplayer EDH: RR Norin the Wary, UU Barrin, Master Wizard, UB Wrexial, the Risen Deep, GR Borborygmos, Enraged
I like to think of it as part of my portfolio. If you don't trust the dollar you've got to put your money somewhere else. Shocks seem like a good idea because they are only going to go up once they rotate out of standard. I think I'll grab fetches when they are reprinted again.
Two more quick questions:
1. I've seen a few lists running 2 Inquisition of Kozileks. That seems like a strange number for that card. What are we looking for running 2 Inquisitions? Just really hoping we draw one early? Or just hoping to hold one until we're able to play a Seismic Assault (or whatever spell happens to be key at a given moment) to peek and see if they're prepared to counter it? OR is the point that we actually run 4 peek-n-deny cards but only maindeck half of it (2 Thoughseize in the board), and decide for game 2 if we want 0 or 4?
I'm running 3, and 3 usually means, "I'd really like to get one, but rather not multiples." And if I can shave one off and have that be stretgically STRONG, I'd like to do so. But I don't wanna touch 'em until I've heard a good rationale for why 2 makes sense. 0, 3, and 4 make sense. 2... what is the point?
(note, I'm very much assuming there IS a point and that I'm wrong, lest I appear authoritatively ignorant. The worst kind of ignorance. lol)
2. How do you guys feel about the land count, specifically for the standard Jund-colored Seismic Loam (as opposed to the creative variants like the Reanimators, Capt. Nick's RUG, etc)? I see a whole bunch of 26, and a whole bunch of 28. I kinda figure both ways must work fine, but figure for this kind of deck, erring on the side of more land is the safer bet. I split the difference and went w/ 27 for now. lol After asking for and receiving some land-based advice above, I currently have my manabase as follows. Very much open to input/comments/criticisms/compliments/steak tacos.
This is one fetch more and one Blackleave Cliffs less than most mana bases I've seen around. If that ends up a horrible mistake somehow, I'm happy to switch em. If I were to be told 28 is the consensus best, I feel like Raging Ravine or another Stomping Ground would be the way to go. If I were told theory dicates 26 is the number, I'd probably shave the 3rd Tarn. And if I were told that my choice of 27 ushered in a new paradigm and turned the very Modern format on its head, I'd likely nod slowly.
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern:
GW GW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG
RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR
R Robots with burn R
Regarding land count, I've found 26 or 27 to be a good number. Right now, I'm playing 26 lands (7 fetchlands) and 1 Mulch:
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Raging Ravine (in case it all goes to hell)
1 Dakmor Salvage (great with Retrace and a combo enabler)
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Graven Cairns
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Looking at your mana base, six filter lands seems like a lot. I'd be worried about the 2-filter openers that would normally be keeps but end up as mulligans. How have they treated you so far? I also play a second Ghost Quarter and (sometimes) a Bojuka Bog in the sideboard.
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern:
GW GW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG
RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR
R Robots with burn R
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Raging Ravine
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Graven Cairns
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Griselbrand
3 Borborygmos Enraged
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil
Enchantments (2)
2 Seismic Assault
Spells (24)
4 Faithless Looting
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Raven's Crime
1 Flame Jab
2 Lightning Axe
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Drown in Filth
1 Mulch
4 Life from the Loam
1 Anger of the Gods
4 Unburial Rites
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Pithing Needle
1 Path to Exile
2 Thoughtseize
1 Flame Jab
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Stony Silence
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
I'm still unsure about the Stinkweed Imp. It turns on our opponents' Lightning Bolts/Lightning Helixes, and now that Zoo with all that burn will be a thing again, I'm not sure Imp is where I want to be. But dredging five cards can be (and has been) really strong sometimes. It might be better as another sweeper or another Drown in Filth, I dunno. I also used to play 1 Sun Titan, but I found that you don't always get to live the dream and recycle Liliana of the Veil. Most often, I wished it were any other creature.
It would be great to have someone else working on a Reanimator list!
I really like the filter lands but I'd highly advise against running more than three. Their inability to activate each other for colored mana leads to consistency issues. Pick a color combination that is most important and stick to it. So for Jund Loam, I'd say run 2-3 Graven Cairns to help you hit Assault more consistently as well as Liliana.
I have been a huge fan of running a 2/1/1 split on Shocks and Basics. In my RUG list I have 2 Steam Vents, 1 Stomping Ground, and 1 Breeding Pool along with 2 Island, 1 Mountain, and 1 Forest. Most games, I'd like to see 2 Vents and 1 Stomping Ground. Breeding Pool is rarely ever used but the closet cases where it is useful, I'm glad I have it. Just because of the success I've had with this set up in my own build, I'd recommend it for others as well. Not necessarily in the exact color distribution since the color requirements for my deck are different than say Jund, where there is a much higher emphasis on B/R mana. You can get away with just one Green source there then just focus on your B/R requirements.
As far as utility lands go, I think it is a really good idea to run 2-3 MB Ghost Quarter. Tron is a serious deck and having a MB answer to their mana base is not to be underestimated. I keep the 4th Ghost Quarter in the side just to make sure the Quarter+Loam lock happens in games 2 and 3. Manlands are solid and I really like Raging Ravine. It's mana intensive, but he can finish games quickly when needed. Lavaclaw Reaches is alright as well but it's always been a fairly underwhelming card. It also nonbos with our general strategy of playing very few lands. I haven't tested with Treetop Village in this deck but I have in others and it's really solid but the lack of color fixing is a pretty big negative. Dakmor Salvage is another one that I haven't tested in a Modern environment (though I've played it in my Tiny Leaders Loam deck with decent results but that's a different build). In the Creatureless builds that operate almost entirely out of the graveyard and like Monster's Reanimator build that wants to self mill aggressively I think it can be a good fit, but in the other midrange strategies, the Dredge isn't particularly advantageous. So the value of drawing a single land for a turn is a bit less useful than it would be in other strategies.
That ended up being a lot more typing than I initially thought I'd be doing... Haha. Here's a brief outline of how I'd recommend building a land base for 3-color versions of this deck:
7-10 Fetches (personally I prefer 8)
2/1/1 split on Shocks and Basics
3-4 Fast Lands
2-3 Filter Lands
1-3 Ghost Quarter
1-2 Man Land
0-3 Flex Slot Utility Lands (Urborg, Dakmor Salvage, Horizon Canopy, etc)
I have no problem running a man land, but think Raging Ravine seems to make more sense than the Lavaclaws I see in most lists, for precisely the reason you gave (the non-bo). I'm also extremely happy to see your thought process on the colors (ie. what we want to do on which turn), as it's EXACTLY how I've approached it too. It's also the reason I'm surprised to see Misty Rainforests in some (Jund) lists when they could be Scalding Tarns or Arid Mesas. Obviously having Mistys shouldn't have dire consequences or anything, but between already having 4 Verdant Catacombs and enough Green-split duals, feels like the priority should be on red availability. <shrug>
TheMonster:
I really do dig the idea! Looking at the list, my first impulse is to suggest tweaking the mana base for Blue availability and jam in some Gifts Ungivens. My second impulse is to assure you that I'm just joking. Hehe
Does anyone else run this list, or at least concept? Or is it all your own? I'm trying to id what is 'lost' by going this route, looks like Bobs and Goyfs. The irony being that one could make the statement, "I removed the 2 best creatures ever printed to make way for some better creatures." lol Borborygmos is bad ass, too!
I like the idea because of how much it goes all-in on the idea of putting our library, umm, all-in, our graveyard. lol Personally I feel like I'd want to find a way to fit in at least a 3rd Seismic Assault, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that I just love Assault-Loam, and that would kinda reinforce the idea that that is still what I'm playing. I'm just thinkin out loud, so if doing so tarnishes the deck's smoothness, obviously leave it alone. lol
It's another situation where I feel like I just have to find a way and time to sit and play some games before making judgements. The idea deserves better than Theory Fighter. But as long as you don't often find your hand, yard, and board state as a hinderance to one angle or the other, it just looks really strong and fun. If I were to play the sceptic (angel's advocate? lol), I'd ask if just going the Goryo's Vengeance reanimator route isn't just faster and more to the point. BUT, even if the answer to that is yes, it likely wouldn't be as much fun.
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern:
GW GW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG
RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR
R Robots with burn R
Owen Turtenwald and Travis Woo messed with the idea, which is where I got it from, but I play much more removal than them to give us a little more versatility and make us less all-in on the combo. Their lists, for example, played zero Seismic Assaults, and Woo played four Stinkweed Imps. There's an argument to be made for a third Assault (and Liliana of the Veil), but since I'm binning so many cards, I don't want to play TOO many cards that don't do anything while in the graveyard. I view Assault more as an insurance policy. I messed around with one Sun Titan to bring back Assaults and Lilianas, and I may go back to that eventually if it proves to be better. But most often I wished Titan was any other idiot because Assault or Liliana aren't always in the graveyard; we can just draw into the combo with Griselbrand, for instance. I'd like to hear other opinions, though.
This deck is less of a glass cannon than the Goryo's builds, as it can win from the graveyard or the battlefield. I've won games where we exchanged resources, then Life from the Loam got Extirpated, and I swung four times with Raging Ravine, for example.
It would be wonderful to have someone else working on a Reanimator list - I'm calling it "Loam-borygmos." There are some slots in the 75 I'm unsure about still, and there are probably angles I haven't even thought of yet. The more minds on the case, the better. SnackCakes(GM), you with me?
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern:
GW GW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG
RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR
R Robots with burn R
Yeah the Witness comment was hasty, wasn't really thinkin about the mana. As for the sweeper you're looking for, maybe Pyroclasm? Dunno if it lets live too many relevant things, though for a turn 3 sweeper, probably won't too too often.
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern:
GW GW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG
RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR
R Robots with burn R
Here the list i came up with (I call it Enraged Loam:D):
3x Boborygmos Enraged
3x Knight of the Reliquary
Spells:
4x Life from the Loam
2x Flame Jab
3x Drown in Filth
3x Mulch
4x Lingering Souls
4x Faithless Looting
4x Raven's Crime
4x Unburial Rites
3x Blackcleave Cliffs
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Blood Crypt
2x Arid Mesa
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Copperline Gorge
1x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
2x Graven Cairns
1x Mountain
1x Marsh Flats
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Swamp
1x Raging Ravine
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
First of all, I have never played Assault Loam before and after some testing I can say that it's really fun a has a lot of nice synergies. I think I also have never played a deck with such a difficult mana base. I got some really good tips for that on the last few pages of this thread that helped me a lot while throwing this deck together but if anyone hase some tips for me I'm glad to hear them.
Some explantations for the deck list. After deciding to play white, I thought I gonna do it right and added KotR and LS. Both have really nice synergies in this deck. KotR is usually even bigger than Goyf and also provides us some nice tutoring for Horizon Canopy (lets you Dredge your Loam while still being able to draw a card, Ghost Quarter, Raging Ravine and stuff like Bojuka Bog in the Side.
The whole deck is quite dredgy so LS are just great CA, buy time or close out out long games.
The sad part is that I realized that the reanimator way seems to be no good. I lost most games while testing because it took me just too much time to assemble my main Wincon. And that is bad. Also it's another strategy that relies on the graveyard, which makes the deck even more vulnerable to hate. It also needs whole 7 spaces in the deck, way too many in my opinion.
I think I'm gonna try the original Seismic Assault way with Commune with the Gods next. (Makes the Manabase even harder:D).
Some instant removal could be nice too (probably Abrupt Decay).
Someone mentioned the idea of playing Young Pyromancer earlier here, how are the opinions on that card? Vulnerable to removal yeah, but I like the idea of having a non-graveyard-based Plan B.
Like I said, I'm new to the deck, tips are gladly seen
Also, if you're gonna play Knight of the Reliquary, (which I like,) I might suggest running more than five lands with type "Plains" and "Forest." I might be wrong, but I have a hunch.
Lingering Souls worked for you, eh? I've always found them to be awkward, especially because of the way my mana develops in the first three turns; most often I want to either play Liliana, sweep with Anger of the Gods or set up a T4 combo. And they frequently chump-blocked, so I'd rather just play a removal spell to deal with that threat or something to abet the graveyard plan. Yeah, they were occasionally ridiculous with Elesh Norn, but those games were rare. If someone can find a configuration that makes Souls awesome, I'm all ears because I want them to be good!
The way I see the deck is more of a control shell with inevitability as opposed to something like Splinter Twin or Goryo's Vengeance that wants to rush it out there.
I can't speak to Young Pyromancer, but I can see the upside with lots of Retrace and perhaps Gitaxian Probes(?).
I wasn't really aware of the fact that I only play 5 Forest/Plains for KotR definetely need to work on that.
One of my biggest problems about the whole reanimator package is that without Gifts Ungiven I need to mill two pieces into my graveyard. If want to be able to do that consistently I need to play more copies of them in my deck (Unlike with Gifts, the deck plays usually only two fatties and one Unburial Rites). The fact that I need to run a package of 7-8 cards to make it work annoys me in combination with the fact that I honestly never want to draw (not even to mill) two Rites or two Boborygmos. I tried out Elesh Norn as a one of like in your build, but she felt really out of place as a not-searchabble one-of. Maybe I should play the two Assaults instead of Borborygmos but but 2-3 Elesh Norn and/or Sun Titan? Seems worth consideration (Elesh Norn is a game winner in herself. She hits the Field and creature baed decks ust Scoop. Borborygmos needs either a Loam or a hand filled with lands to be really good).
Like I said, my build plays quite dredgy and that's exactly the point why I like my LS. They have flashback. I did not found any good removal that can offer me that. Maybe I'm gonna go down to 3 to make some room for other stuff but I really like them.
I never really found me in a situation where I didnt find a way to discard my Reanimator parts. Faithless Looting already does a really good Job with that. So I don't consider Lightning Axe to be that helpful. Liliana on the other hand is still a damn good card that needs to be tried out.
All in all thanks for the Input, think I'm gonna brew some new Versions together now.
Let me know what you come up with!
4 faithless looting
3 raven's crime
3 flame jab
4 life from the loam
1 anger of the gods
1 slagstorm
1 firespout
1 mystic retrieval
1 damnation
1 worm harvest
instants: 12
1 lightning axe
1 darkblast
4 izzet charm
1 abrupt decay
1 dismember
4 gifts ungiven
4 burning vengeance
lands: 24
3 verdant catacombs
3 misty rainforest
2 scalding tarn
4 blackcleave cliffs
1 swamp
1 island
1 mountain
1 forest
1 dakmor salvage
1 alchemist's refuge
1 raging ravine
1 stomping ground
1 breeding pool
1 steam vents
1 overgrown tomb
1 watery grave
Gifts is basically for value, hence all the one-ofs, no reanimator shennanigans. The deck features a lock down that you can search for with gifts: raven's crime, alchemist's refuge, dakmor salvage and life from the loam. You just activate refuge during your opponent's draw step and flash raven's crime, discarding dakmor salvage or any land for retrace. That way your opponent will discard his card in top deck mode (easy to achieve with raven's crime) without having the chance to cast it (unless it is an instant). If you have a burning vengeance you can win the game this way, just dredge back dakmor salvage or loam with enought mana. Alchemist's refuge is also pretty sweet with flame jab or sweepers if you have enough mana.
Gifts can get you 2 sweepers, 2 removal spells, worm harvest for the win, retrace spells + loam, and so on. That's pretty good value
Izzet charm is another reason for the blue splash, the looting effect is pretty powerful in this deck and the other two mode can be useful too from time to time.
So, thoughts?