@mschu99, in my opinion the main reason to play Naya Loam is Knight of the Reliquary. He is just insane, how big it can get. The Aven Mindcensor and Leonin Arbiter interaction is in my opinion to cute. It is pretty slow and you have to give up the Fetchland Manabase, through it is constant possible to play the Seismic Assault on Turn 3. You can see it at the Modern Death and Taxes and GW Hatebears deck, that only with a full commitment on this strategy it is possible to screw the opponents manabase in the early and midgame.
@cloudman, Didn't even realize that Tamanoa exists. It looks interesting but kind of to slow. Against Zoo you would need it on Turn 3. If you want to play it in the SB you have to play it as an 4 off to get it constant. Furthermore is pretty bad against other match-ups. Additional an Anger of Gods or Firespout is at that point most of the times better.
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
@Kathal--I have been doing some testing with it and it gets to the lock turn three or turn four pretty easily. The trouble is early aggression and dealing with their board state at that point. This version I think is better against control, midrange match-ups and dominates Tron among others.
However, you might be right that the interaction may be too cute to be effective. It's really nice to strip mine, seismic and loam in the same turn. This was mainly built for budget reasons, and then I started testing it and was quite impressed. I also think cutting 1 Mulch and 1 Aven Mindcensor for 2 Wild Guess is correct. It's nice to discard your Life from the Loam and immediately dredge in response to the draw, although Mulch is a better late game card and helping to find a loam to put in the yard.
@Cloudman--I think if I went with the fetch mana base, Knight of the Reliquary build, I would definitely add Wild Nacatl for sure. There were already some loam decks playing Kird Ape, and I think it's an easy switch. I agree with Kathal that Anger of the Gods would be a better 3 drop out of the board then Tamanoa. It takes additional cards to get Tamanoa active, and doesn't do anything (besides block) to effect the board. They will still have all their dudes, and you can get blown out by a removal spell. I think it's better to just answer their creatures with a wrath, and keep digging to get your Loam plan active.
Just a rough start to things, after coming back to this deck as my "pet deck" from ages past. All the numbers are just rough at this point, and looking to toss around some ideas.
Couple things I am curious about though:
1: Arid Mesa over the Misty Rainforest. Will there really be a point when being able to fetch out the Blood crypt be better then just the other two shocklands?
2: Worm Harvest. As a late game finisher, with DRS out of the picture and multiple ways to deal with any main decked Oozes at this point, is it still a relevant card, or are Tarmogoyf/Crusher good enough on their own.
3: Raging Ravine. Is he worth the slot now, with the unbanning of bitterblossom, they could potentially have an endless course of blockers by the time he comes online. I was considering cutting this and trying out a main decked Horizon Canapy, basically for some simple "draw at instant speed" effect.
[deck]
1: Arid Mesa over the Misty Rainforest. Will there really be a point when being able to fetch out the Blood crypt be better then just the other two shocklands?
2: Worm Harvest. As a late game finisher, with DRS out of the picture and multiple ways to deal with any main decked Oozes at this point, is it still a relevant card, or are Tarmogoyf/Crusher good enough on their own.
3: Raging Ravine. Is he worth the slot now, with the unbanning of bitterblossom, they could potentially have an endless course of blockers by the time he comes online. I was considering cutting this and trying out a main decked Horizon Canapy, basically for some simple "draw at instant speed" effect.
1) It will certainly come up where you'll want a blood crypt just because of murphy's law, but your probably going to see so many lands the majority of the time it wont matter.
2) Haven't tested, but seems slower.
3) I think if you worried about Bitter Blossum you should run more Flame Jab.
Just a rough start to things, after coming back to this deck as my "pet deck" from ages past. All the numbers are just rough at this point, and looking to toss around some ideas.
Couple things I am curious about though:
1: Arid Mesa over the Misty Rainforest. Will there really be a point when being able to fetch out the Blood crypt be better then just the other two shocklands?
2: Worm Harvest. As a late game finisher, with DRS out of the picture and multiple ways to deal with any main decked Oozes at this point, is it still a relevant card, or are Tarmogoyf/Crusher good enough on their own.
3: Raging Ravine. Is he worth the slot now, with the unbanning of bitterblossom, they could potentially have an endless course of blockers by the time he comes online. I was considering cutting this and trying out a main decked Horizon Canapy, basically for some simple "draw at instant speed" effect.
Worm Harvest with Bob seems a bit loose (granted it's a 1-of) but with a high density of 3-drops as well, it seems like a bit of a non-bo since you're going to do a pretty good job of killing yourself with this deck's lands anyways. You want at least 3 but preferably 4 Faithless Looting effects in a Loam deck. It's just pure value for you. Running less than 7 or 8 fetches seems loose. They are pretty key to the deck. They let you hit your land drops and can be used as Assault/Retrace fodder later on in the game. On that note, you should cut some filter lands. Most decks run about 2 of them and generally a pair of the ones that provide the two colors you need most. Generally R and something else. You'd probably want Graven Cairns just for Liliana and Assault.
Worm Harvest and Countryside Crusher have generally been found to be lacking. Either too slow or too clunky. I don't think they are bad cards, just dated tech. You'd probably be better off with upping the numbers on other key cards like Assault, Goyf and Looting. That'd also drop your curve a bit and make Bob less painful. Other than that stuff, it looks like a pretty stock JundLoam list. I second the idea of upping your number of Flame Jabs if you're worried about Bitterblossom. Especially now that Deathrite is out of the format; Retrace becomes a lot more useful.
[deck]
1: Arid Mesa over the Misty Rainforest. Will there really be a point when being able to fetch out the Blood crypt be better then just the other two shocklands?
2: Worm Harvest. As a late game finisher, with DRS out of the picture and multiple ways to deal with any main decked Oozes at this point, is it still a relevant card, or are Tarmogoyf/Crusher good enough on their own.
3: Raging Ravine. Is he worth the slot now, with the unbanning of bitterblossom, they could potentially have an endless course of blockers by the time he comes online. I was considering cutting this and trying out a main decked Horizon Canapy, basically for some simple "draw at instant speed" effect.
1) It will certainly come up where you'll want a blood crypt just because of murphy's law, but your probably going to see so many lands the majority of the time it wont matter.
2) Haven't tested, but seems slower.
3) I think if you worried about Bitter Blossum you should run more Flame Jab.
2: Assuming you mean, Worm Harvest seems slow?
3: More flame jab, less darkblast?
- I went down to two Liliana of the Veils, thinking that there will be an influx of swarm decks and a decline in midrange decks like Jund. Zoo will pack lots of burn, so they can efficiently deal with her. Is this thinking right?
- I think my deck wants a sweeper maindeck, so I'm running with Anger of the Gods. It's a turn faster than Damnation and kills Wild Nacatl and Merfolk strategies.
- Stinkweed Imp might be my loosest card, but it's a strong dredger/combo enabler and can eat attackers. Then again, it just dies to Lightning Bolt or Lightning Helix. What do y'all think? Should I just play another Drown in Filth or Mulch in its place? something else?
- The sideboard is where I have the most questions. I assume Pod decks are gonna be REALLY strong in the new meta, so I think Pithing Needles are a must. They're also good against Relic of Progenitus. That said, should I include a card like Extirpate to nail a Persist creature/combo piece? Might be good against Twin, too.
- Path to Exile is for Tron and Twin. I don't think Tron is gonna be as prevalent, so I'm only running one Path now instead of two.
- Two Volcanic Fallouts ... how prevalent does everyone think Faeries are gonna be? Fallout doesn't kill Wild Nacatl and a post-Lord Merfolk, which is why I'm considering running just one and either a Damnation or another Anger of the Gods in its place.
- I went down to two Liliana of the Veils, thinking that there will be an influx of swarm decks and a decline in midrange decks like Jund. Zoo will pack lots of burn, so they can efficiently deal with her. Is this thinking right?
- I think my deck wants a sweeper maindeck, so I'm running with Anger of the Gods. It's a turn faster than Damnation and kills Wild Nacatl and Merfolk strategies.
- Stinkweed Imp might be my loosest card, but it's a strong dredger/combo enabler and can eat attackers. Then again, it just dies to Lightning Bolt or Lightning Helix. What do y'all think? Should I just play another Drown in Filth or Mulch in its place? something else?
- The sideboard is where I have the most questions. I assume Pod decks are gonna be REALLY strong in the new meta, so I think Pithing Needles are a must. They're also good against Relic of Progenitus. That said, should I include a card like Extirpate to nail a Persist creature/combo piece? Might be good against Twin, too.
- Path to Exile is for Tron and Twin. I don't think Tron is gonna be as prevalent, so I'm only running one Path now instead of two.
- Two Volcanic Fallouts ... how prevalent does everyone think Faeries are gonna be? Fallout doesn't kill Wild Nacatl and a post-Lord Merfolk, which is why I'm considering running just one and either a Damnation or another Anger of the Gods in its place.
Thanks, everybody!
I'd cut a Volcanic Fallout for an Anger of the Gods. If you need to beat Faeries, more Flame Jabs seems like a better option.
Yeah, I mean Worm Harvest seems slow, but I haven't tested it. I think Seismic Assault is a good option as well, plus offers another way to answer lots of Faeries or Zoo. I like what Captain Nick said about Worm Harvest and it's interaction with Dark Confidant. I think I would cut the it for another Flame Jab, and maybe cut 1 Liliana for the 4th goyf. Also, I would want 4 faithless looting. There is nothing like turn 1 loot, discard Raven's Crime/Flame Jab and/or loam. I guess your wanting to turn 1 inquisition though.
Young Pyromancer is really good in this deck too. The reason I would say Young Pyromancer is a good option over even Goyf is because it's something that does not rely on the graveyard, and gives your deck a way to play through hate or another dimension of attack. Plus in the event that you get retrace/loam engine going, you produce so many more tokens then bitter blossom.
Hello, all. I had some questions I wanted to run by you guys regarding my current configuration. I'm gonna type it out here, but based on the answers to the questions, there will be some changes (sideboard is a rough draft at this point). Also note any stray comments or opinions not prompted by my questions are welcomed. Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to glance.
Based on some of the posts I've read above, I'd decided to relunctantly try getting rid of the Countryside Crushers and see how I like it. The Worm Harvest, too, mostly due to Bob potentially Shrapnel Blasting us as pointed out above. So this opens up 4 slots. Also based on the above commentary, one slot is definitely going to the 4th Faithless Looting, leaving us with 3. And I think I know what I want to do with another one of the slots, which leads to the first question:
1. Almost every Aggro Loam list I see runs 3 Seismic Assualts. Would it be such a mistake to run the 4th? I assume the rationale against it is how multiples are blanks. indeed they are, BUT... isn't it important enough to draw one that the risk of holding onto a blank is worth maximizing the odds of drawing the first? This may be a matter of opinion, but again, the wide consensus seems to be 3 across the board. I ran 4 back in the day and even shaved one just based on all the lists I'd seen. Now, obviously, I'm reconsidering. lol
2. What is the deal with all the Blackleave Cliffs everyone runs? I get how sweet they must be turns 1 through 3, but beyond that, isn't it just pointlessly coming in tapped? From playing Loam in the past I know this tends to matter much less later in the game, but unless we reeeeally need to avoid shocking ourselves with our lands, isn't it just kind of unnecessary? Not saying BAD, per se, just unecessary(?). I definitely expect I'm wrong here, would just like to better understand why.
3. Those were really my only 2 pressing questions, but since I went ahead and typed up the list, I might as well ask for any recommendations for the final 2 (or 3 if the argument against the 4th Seismic is compelling) vacated slots? I feel like I can come up with and try out decent ideas on my own, BUT also value the opinions of the experts and am not yet married to anything. So may as well see what you guys think. Possible ideas off the top of my head:
- The 4th Raven's Crime
- The 4th Flame Jab
- 2 Abrupt Decay (in which case maybe replace the 2 A.D.s in the board w/ Maelstrom Pulses? Just thinkin' out loud. lol)
- 2 Young Pyromancer. I never would have come to the Pyro conclusion on my own, but I've definitely seen his praises sung more than once. I kinda down I'll go that route, but if anyone happens to be of the opinion that a duo of Y.P. is the perfect way to round out the list, it's certainly worth tryin' em out. <shrug>
- A couple of Terminates or something like that.
To anyone still reading, I appreciate the time and any potential insights. I played a ton of the Naya version of Aggro Loam years ago, but haven't really gotten much chance to test since switching to the Jund version listed above. So unfortunately I'm mostly playing Theory Fighter thus far, aside from knowing that the core works. Though as mentioned, regarding the 4th Seismic Assualt, back in the day I never would've considered going down to 3. lol But I also wasn't working with the Crime/Jab retrace package back then, so maybe sticking a Seismic isn't as critical in this kind of build?
OK, going into ramble mode. Catching self and going to bed. Thanks again, and have a nice morning/afternoon/evening/night!
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Formerly JacobsCabin, thank god the new site let me change it.
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern: GWGW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR R Robots with burn R
@SnackCakes(GM), I will try to answer your questions:
1) The problem with 4 Seismics is, that if you ever draw a second one, it is a dead draw most of the time. Sure you can cycle it with the Lootings/ Lili but you need to have them.
2) Blackleave Cliffs are pretty insane in this deck. You need untapped lands the first few turns to play discard, looting, loam and many more cards. If you don´t play the Cliffs and instead you play fetchlands, you would take at least 3 damage from it, which could be prevented. The main point of this is, that you have no lifegain in this deck. Every point of damage hurts and because of the Manabase you are already dealing yourself enough damage. So a dual, which don´t hurt you is pretty insane.
3) The fourth Looting + 2x, but I wouldn´t play the Young Pyromancer, if you want to play him, you need all 4.
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I was originally just a kitchen table lurker, but after thinking about it I am going to try to take this deck to my first modern event ever. I don't have Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil, shocklands, or fetchlands. So I'll probably need to go primarily R/G, which means that I will be running Young Pyromancer. One of the things that I think could help the Pyromancer builds out a lot is the inclusion of Manamorphose. I don't know what else I'd cut to run Manamorphose, but since I need the mana fixing I think I can make it work.
Any suggestions on how to tailor this deck to manamorphose/fast lands and the 2013 core set lands?
Here is my first attempt at a budget list (no sideboard yet:
Here are some of my thought processes on card choices:
-Quirion Dryad is my budget replacement for Tarmogoyf. I think it could work very well because every card outside of Life From The Loam and the other two copies of itself pumps it up with a counter. There are 7 "free" cantriping spells between Gitaxian Probe and Manamorphose to do this. There are also 11 1 CMC spells that can help with this too. With a Flame Jab in the graveyard it is pretty much copies 4-6 of Countryside Crusher.
-Young Pyromancer wants to play off cheap free cantriping spells the same way that Quirion Dryad does.
-What is kind of cool is this deck can totally operate with a Blood Moon in play. Blood Moon would barely have any drawback because I can still reliably get green mana with manamorphose or my basic forests. Should I play it maindeck?
-I also know that a lot of people think that Hero of Leina Tower is a horrible/terrible card, but I actually think there is a use for it in this deck. With Flame Jab we have a consistent and reliable heroic enabler that allows us to just sink mana into it. If you think about it that way Heero of Leina Tower is actually an awesome top deck. Since the triggered ability goes on the stack above Flame Jab it doesn't matter if Flame Jab is countered or deals one damage. Hero of Leina Tower can obviously be killed in response by any burn or removal spell, but it is something to think about. I haven't included it yet because I am curious to hear what other people think about Hero in the deck.
1. I saw some article where a guy talked about Aggro Loam using Grizzly Savage, a card which admittedly I wasn't aware of prior. It looks like it could have nice synergy and potential with our gameplan, but I don't recall seeing it mentioned in this thread before. Has this card been tested and found to be underwhelming for us? I figure if it was that great, I'd have already seen it in a bunch of lists. What do you guys think?
2. Just curious, how aggressively do you guys tend to mulligan with this deck? I figure opinions will likely range on this one, but would very much like to know what you guys, the experts, really want to see most when looking at your opening hand. Especially since I'm personally so new to the Jund-color version of the deck.
Cloudman: you'll definitely want to do some testing before trying to make an Aggro Loam while missing all those pieces. Its not even the Bobs or Goyfs that have me 'concerned,' as much as your lacking fetchlands. They're pretty key to the deck. BUT, it very well may work fine w/o em, I'd just test pretty rigorously to make sure your land base works.
As for other cards in lieu of those pieces, maybe go a more control-ish mid-range-y sort of route with cards like Abrupt Decay, Terminate, Maelstrom Pulse, Bolts, etc? Hard to say w/o knowing which pieces you DO have, you know?
Another thought, if you're lacking Bobs and Lilis, is going the Naya route. As mentioned above, I used to play a bunch of Naya Loam. And while I'm pretty convinced the Jund versions we see nowadays are probably better, if you've got Knights of the Relequaries and Lightning Helixes(and Bolts) and a Path or two, they could make for more than adequate substitutes. <shrug>
Kathal: Thanks for the input! For point 1, I acknowledged in my post that redundant Seismics are indeed dead, but posited that increasing the odds of hitting the first one might more than compensate for that problem. In the Naya build, Assault+Loam was definitely the resounding Plan A, where as with Jund, it probably still is, but it appears the other stuff (like the Crimes and Jabs) could be strong enough to hold while we wait for a Seismic.
For point 2, alright ill assume I was very wrong on this and test with the Cliffs before trying to make judgements on em.
And for point 3, definitely did NOT wanna go the Pyromancer route, so the decision not to run 2 is that much easier to make, thanks. Lol. Maybe for those last 2 slots could do something like a pair of Bolts, or maybe 2 Eternal Witnesses? Or...
Formerly JacobsCabin, thank god the new site let me change it.
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern: GWGW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR R Robots with burn R
I have Knight of the Reliquary, Terminus, Slagstorm, and Terminate. I don't have Abrupt Decay or Maelstrom Pulse. I do have Raven's Crime as well. I just posted a deck list in my previous post that I think can easily hit its land drops. It is basically a red deck that splashes green for Quirion Dryad and Life From The Loam. The deck has 15 mana sources for green including manamorphose. I don't ever need to hit more than 1 green mana so that seems fine, and I have 19 red mana sources including manamorphose. With all of the cantriping and drawing that the deck does I don't think I'll have any trouble finding the lands I need to cast my spells.
What do you think about Hero of Leina Tower with Flame Jab? Flame Jab seems like the perfect heroic enabler to turn Hero into a mana sink. It is too bad that it is a sorcery speed mana sink, but a mana sink is a mana sink and it is repeatable.
Hello, all. I had some questions I wanted to run by you guys regarding my current configuration. I'm gonna type it out here, but based on the answers to the questions, there will be some changes (sideboard is a rough draft at this point). Also note any stray comments or opinions not prompted by my questions are welcomed. Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to glance.
Based on some of the posts I've read above, I'd decided to relunctantly try getting rid of the Countryside Crushers and see how I like it. The Worm Harvest, too, mostly due to Bob potentially Shrapnel Blasting us as pointed out above. So this opens up 4 slots. Also based on the above commentary, one slot is definitely going to the 4th Faithless Looting, leaving us with 3. And I think I know what I want to do with another one of the slots, which leads to the first question:
1. Almost every Aggro Loam list I see runs 3 Seismic Assualts. Would it be such a mistake to run the 4th? I assume the rationale against it is how multiples are blanks. indeed they are, BUT... isn't it important enough to draw one that the risk of holding onto a blank is worth maximizing the odds of drawing the first? This may be a matter of opinion, but again, the wide consensus seems to be 3 across the board. I ran 4 back in the day and even shaved one just based on all the lists I'd seen. Now, obviously, I'm reconsidering. lol
2. What is the deal with all the Blackleave Cliffs everyone runs? I get how sweet they must be turns 1 through 3, but beyond that, isn't it just pointlessly coming in tapped? From playing Loam in the past I know this tends to matter much less later in the game, but unless we reeeeally need to avoid shocking ourselves with our lands, isn't it just kind of unnecessary? Not saying BAD, per se, just unecessary(?). I definitely expect I'm wrong here, would just like to better understand why.
3. Those were really my only 2 pressing questions, but since I went ahead and typed up the list, I might as well ask for any recommendations for the final 2 (or 3 if the argument against the 4th Seismic is compelling) vacated slots? I feel like I can come up with and try out decent ideas on my own, BUT also value the opinions of the experts and am not yet married to anything. So may as well see what you guys think. Possible ideas off the top of my head:
- The 4th Raven's Crime
- The 4th Flame Jab
- 2 Abrupt Decay (in which case maybe replace the 2 A.D.s in the board w/ Maelstrom Pulses? Just thinkin' out loud. lol)
- 2 Young Pyromancer. I never would have come to the Pyro conclusion on my own, but I've definitely seen his praises sung more than once. I kinda down I'll go that route, but if anyone happens to be of the opinion that a duo of Y.P. is the perfect way to round out the list, it's certainly worth tryin' em out. <shrug>
- A couple of Terminates or something like that.
To anyone still reading, I appreciate the time and any potential insights. I played a ton of the Naya version of Aggro Loam years ago, but haven't really gotten much chance to test since switching to the Jund version listed above. So unfortunately I'm mostly playing Theory Fighter thus far, aside from knowing that the core works. Though as mentioned, regarding the 4th Seismic Assualt, back in the day I never would've considered going down to 3. lol But I also wasn't working with the Crime/Jab retrace package back then, so maybe sticking a Seismic isn't as critical in this kind of build?
OK, going into ramble mode. Catching self and going to bed. Thanks again, and have a nice morning/afternoon/evening/night!
1. The decision of 3 or 4 of Seismic Assault really depends on your build. If you are going with a midrange build (which it looks like you are), the preference recently has been to run 4. True, extra copies are dead but Thoughtseize, Abrupt Decay and Qasali Pridemage exist. So having back ups is never that bad. Especially when it is your primary wincon. I ran 3 for awhile in my RUG build to see if it was necessary to have 4 and found that I'd much rather have a back up than not. Plus, it helps with consistency. Making sure you hit Assault turn 3 more often than not.
2. The utility and inclusion of the Fastlands comes more from how the deck plays out. More often than not, you are going to hit 3 or 4 lands in play and not need to play any more. With an Assault in play, all you need to cast is Loam. In my RUG list I tend to hit 4 lands just so I can Snapcaster Mage+Deprive if I need to. It is very rare that you'll be needing to get a ton of lands in play (on of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of Lavaclaw Reaches here). So, if you can get your color fixing in without taking a ton of damage, it's only beneficial. I don't think any list needs more than 3, but that is definitely the right number for any midrange build.
3. I'd probably recommend running Maelstrom Pulse over Abrupt Decay in the last two slots. A lot of people have been building decks to get around Abrupt Decay. So having a more versatile card in Pulse is a bit better in my opinion. I run a 2/1 split MB in favor of Pulse in my GB Zombie deck and it has worked well for me. I think those slots should be determined by your metagame though. Having some flex spots is always nice for sideboarding as well as mainboard tuning. I don't think you need more than 3 Flame Jab for what it's worth. Though that may be wrong depending on how the new meta shapes up.
1. I saw some article where a guy talked about Aggro Loam using Grizzly Savage, a card which admittedly I wasn't aware of prior. It looks like it could have nice synergy and potential with our gameplan, but I don't recall seeing it mentioned in this thread before. Has this card been tested and found to be underwhelming for us? I figure if it was that great, I'd have already seen it in a bunch of lists. What do you guys think?
2. Just curious, how aggressively do you guys tend to mulligan with this deck? I figure opinions will likely range on this one, but would very much like to know what you guys, the experts, really want to see most when looking at your opening hand. Especially since I'm personally so new to the Jund-color version of the deck.
Cloudman: you'll definitely want to do some testing before trying to make an Aggro Loam while missing all those pieces. Its not even the Bobs or Goyfs that have me 'concerned,' as much as your lacking fetchlands. They're pretty key to the deck. BUT, it very well may work fine w/o em, I'd just test pretty rigorously to make sure your land base works.
As for other cards in lieu of those pieces, maybe go a more control-ish mid-range-y sort of route with cards like Abrupt Decay, Terminate, Maelstrom Pulse, Bolts, etc? Hard to say w/o knowing which pieces you DO have, you know?
Another thought, if you're lacking Bobs and Lilis, is going the Naya route. As mentioned above, I used to play a bunch of Naya Loam. And while I'm pretty convinced the Jund versions we see nowadays are probably better, if you've got Knights of the Relequaries and Lightning Helixes(and Bolts) and a Path or two, they could make for more than adequate substitutes. <shrug>
Kathal: Thanks for the input! For point 1, I acknowledged in my post that redundant Seismics are indeed dead, but posited that increasing the odds of hitting the first one might more than compensate for that problem. In the Naya build, Assault+Loam was definitely the resounding Plan A, where as with Jund, it probably still is, but it appears the other stuff (like the Crimes and Jabs) could be strong enough to hold while we wait for a Seismic.
For point 2, alright ill assume I was very wrong on this and test with the Cliffs before trying to make judgements on em.
And for point 3, definitely did NOT wanna go the Pyromancer route, so the decision not to run 2 is that much easier to make, thanks. Lol. Maybe for those last 2 slots could do something like a pair of Bolts, or maybe 2 Eternal Witnesses? Or...
1. We've talked about Grisly Salvage and cards like it a couple times before. Grisly Salvage is probably the weakest of the options to be honest. Mulch and Commune with the Gods are probably better if you want to run an effect like this. Mulch as a pseudo-Loam and Commune as a pseudo-Assault tutor. It just comes down to lists being very tight on card space. You already have variations of these effects that are more proactive or better costed. So, if you want the added redundancy, they aren't necessarily bad. There's just limited space and these types of cards just barely miss the cut off.
2. Hands with these decks are usually fairly forgiving. There are a lot of ways to pull yourself out of card disadvantage. The main things I look for are having 2-3 lands that produce the colors I need for the first few turns (that's probably the biggest thing) and checking to see that there is at least some action in my hand. Either digging spells or removal. So basically, I want a hand that is looking to set up the lock asap or is able to stall a bit until I get things rolling. Almost any hand with a Loam is worth keeping as it fuels all the other cards in your deck.
I was originally just a kitchen table lurker, but after thinking about it I am going to try to take this deck to my first modern event ever. I don't have Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil, shocklands, or fetchlands. So I'll probably need to go primarily R/G, which means that I will be running Young Pyromancer. One of the things that I think could help the Pyromancer builds out a lot is the inclusion of Manamorphose. I don't know what else I'd cut to run Manamorphose, but since I need the mana fixing I think I can make it work.
Any suggestions on how to tailor this deck to manamorphose/fast lands and the 2013 core set lands?
Here is my first attempt at a budget list (no sideboard yet:
Here are some of my thought processes on card choices:
-Quirion Dryad is my budget replacement for Tarmogoyf. I think it could work very well because every card outside of Life From The Loam and the other two copies of itself pumps it up with a counter. There are 7 "free" cantriping spells between Gitaxian Probe and Manamorphose to do this. There are also 11 1 CMC spells that can help with this too. With a Flame Jab in the graveyard it is pretty much copies 4-6 of Countryside Crusher.
-Young Pyromancer wants to play off cheap free cantriping spells the same way that Quirion Dryad does.
-What is kind of cool is this deck can totally operate with a Blood Moon in play. Blood Moon would barely have any drawback because I can still reliably get green mana with manamorphose or my basic forests. Should I play it maindeck?
-I also know that a lot of people think that Hero of Leina Tower is a horrible/terrible card, but I actually think there is a use for it in this deck. With Flame Jab we have a consistent and reliable heroic enabler that allows us to just sink mana into it. If you think about it that way Heero of Leina Tower is actually an awesome top deck. Since the triggered ability goes on the stack above Flame Jab it doesn't matter if Flame Jab is countered or deals one damage. Hero of Leina Tower can obviously be killed in response by any burn or removal spell, but it is something to think about. I haven't included it yet because I am curious to hear what other people think about Hero in the deck.
I'd recommend trying to get a playset of Stomping Ground while they are still in standard and not terribly expensive.
I think you need to look at the way you are going to build this deck differently than most of the lists posted here. There is no real replacement for Goyf. Don't run bad cards like Vinelash Kudzu or Quirion Dryad trying to replace it. You're going to want to go with a fast aggro plan with the possibility of an Assault+Loam end game. So, I'd recommend cards like Experiment One, Goblin Guide, Flinthoof Boar, and Strangleroot Geist. Undercosted haste dudes are where you want to be.
Manamorphose and Gitaxian Probe are technically "free" spells but when you are running an aggro deck, they are information that you don't have. If you look at your opening hand of 1 land, 3 creatures, bolt and manamorphose and probe; the question of "Can I keep that hand?" becomes much more difficult. You don't know what your next few cards are. So if you can't cycle into the cards you need, then you kept a bad hand. I hope that makes sense... On one hand, yes, you are making your deck smaller and "more consistent" but it lends itself to limiting the information you have access to. I'd rather just redundant cards.
I like the idea of blanking the opponent's removal and using Raven's Crime and Flame Jab to grind out games. If Faeries gets really popular, the Flame Jabs will do some work. I can imagine Zoo to be a tough matchup though with all of their X/3's so Firespout might be better than Pyroclasm maindeck.
Cloudman: Did you edit in your list and card explanations after having typed the initial questions before it? I didn't recall seeing all that when I threw in my 2 cents (which were probably worth under a penny, anyway), so apologies that my commentary must've appeared so disconnected from it. It WAS disconnected from it. lol As for further advice, Capt. Nick's reply is better than anything I'd offer, so I'll just recommend exercising and eating healthy and leave it at that.
Capt. Nick: Hey, GREAT information, thank you! And you're totally right about not needing to continually drop lands, it's been so long since I really PLAYED the damn deck, should probably do more of that before challenging the establishment. I'm glad to see we're on the same page about the 4th Seismic Assault (ie. that it CAN be a good idea). I didn't really consider the back up copy aspect as much as the consistency argument. But both are good reasons to run, or at the very least test, 4 Seismics.
I actually kinda' reconsidered on removing the Worm Harvest, but once again I need to just PLAY some games before making decisions about it (friend availability is what's preventing this mainly). So if -3 Countryside Crusher, +1 Faithless Looting... I'm thinkin' if I DO put the 4th Assault back in, the last spot can just be a Pulse per your recommendation. If I DO opt to take out the Worm Harvest, I kinda like the singleton Eternal Witness idea. And if I ultimately decide to keep to 3 Assaults (admittedly not likely), will probably make it a 2nd Pulse.
Nick, I'll have to take a look at your RUG list too. I doubt I'm gonna change my colors again, but the prospect of Blue in Aggro Loam is, at worst, pretty neat.
Thanks again, all!
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly JacobsCabin, thank god the new site let me change it.
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern: GWGW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR R Robots with burn R
OK, so I just decided to order a full playset of every single shockland. I figured it would be a good investment, and if I'm going to get into modern then I might as well start while shocks are down. So now that I have ordered a full playset of shocklands what should I do now?
OK, so I just decided to order a full playset of every single shockland. I figured it would be a good investment, and if I'm going to get into modern then I might as well start while shocks are down. So now that I have ordered a full playset of shocklands what should I do now?
2nd mortgage?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly JacobsCabin, thank god the new site let me change it.
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern: GWGW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR R Robots with burn R
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@cloudman, Didn't even realize that Tamanoa exists. It looks interesting but kind of to slow. Against Zoo you would need it on Turn 3. If you want to play it in the SB you have to play it as an 4 off to get it constant. Furthermore is pretty bad against other match-ups. Additional an Anger of Gods or Firespout is at that point most of the times better.
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
However, you might be right that the interaction may be too cute to be effective. It's really nice to strip mine, seismic and loam in the same turn. This was mainly built for budget reasons, and then I started testing it and was quite impressed. I also think cutting 1 Mulch and 1 Aven Mindcensor for 2 Wild Guess is correct. It's nice to discard your Life from the Loam and immediately dredge in response to the draw, although Mulch is a better late game card and helping to find a loam to put in the yard.
@Cloudman--I think if I went with the fetch mana base, Knight of the Reliquary build, I would definitely add Wild Nacatl for sure. There were already some loam decks playing Kird Ape, and I think it's an easy switch. I agree with Kathal that Anger of the Gods would be a better 3 drop out of the board then Tamanoa. It takes additional cards to get Tamanoa active, and doesn't do anything (besides block) to effect the board. They will still have all their dudes, and you can get blown out by a removal spell. I think it's better to just answer their creatures with a wrath, and keep digging to get your Loam plan active.
What are some good lands in modern to fetch up with Knight of the Reliquary?
In Naya, the following possibilities come to mind:
- Raging Ravine
- Stirring Wildwood
- Treetop Village
- Horizon Canopy
- Flagstones of Trokair
- Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
- Slayers' Stronghold
- Gavony Township
- Kessig Wolf Run
- Ghost Quarter/Tectonic Edge
- maybe Bojuka Bog (even though it taps for B)
I'm sure there are others that I can't think of.
3 Countryside Crusher
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Seismic Assault
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Raven's Crime
1 Worm Harvest
2 Faithless Looting
4 Life from the Loam
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Flame Jab
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Blood Crypt
3 Graven Cairns
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Twilight Mire
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Stomping Ground
1 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Darkblast
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Back to Nature
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Torpor Orb
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Horizon Canopy
Just a rough start to things, after coming back to this deck as my "pet deck" from ages past. All the numbers are just rough at this point, and looking to toss around some ideas.
Couple things I am curious about though:
1: Arid Mesa over the Misty Rainforest. Will there really be a point when being able to fetch out the Blood crypt be better then just the other two shocklands?
2: Worm Harvest. As a late game finisher, with DRS out of the picture and multiple ways to deal with any main decked Oozes at this point, is it still a relevant card, or are Tarmogoyf/Crusher good enough on their own.
3: Raging Ravine. Is he worth the slot now, with the unbanning of bitterblossom, they could potentially have an endless course of blockers by the time he comes online. I was considering cutting this and trying out a main decked Horizon Canapy, basically for some simple "draw at instant speed" effect.
1) It will certainly come up where you'll want a blood crypt just because of murphy's law, but your probably going to see so many lands the majority of the time it wont matter.
2) Haven't tested, but seems slower.
3) I think if you worried about Bitter Blossum you should run more Flame Jab.
Worm Harvest with Bob seems a bit loose (granted it's a 1-of) but with a high density of 3-drops as well, it seems like a bit of a non-bo since you're going to do a pretty good job of killing yourself with this deck's lands anyways. You want at least 3 but preferably 4 Faithless Looting effects in a Loam deck. It's just pure value for you. Running less than 7 or 8 fetches seems loose. They are pretty key to the deck. They let you hit your land drops and can be used as Assault/Retrace fodder later on in the game. On that note, you should cut some filter lands. Most decks run about 2 of them and generally a pair of the ones that provide the two colors you need most. Generally R and something else. You'd probably want Graven Cairns just for Liliana and Assault.
Worm Harvest and Countryside Crusher have generally been found to be lacking. Either too slow or too clunky. I don't think they are bad cards, just dated tech. You'd probably be better off with upping the numbers on other key cards like Assault, Goyf and Looting. That'd also drop your curve a bit and make Bob less painful. Other than that stuff, it looks like a pretty stock JundLoam list. I second the idea of upping your number of Flame Jabs if you're worried about Bitterblossom. Especially now that Deathrite is out of the format; Retrace becomes a lot more useful.
Don't forget Sejiri Steppe. It's a tutorable protection spell. It is a useful toolbox card with Knight.
2: Assuming you mean, Worm Harvest seems slow?
3: More flame jab, less darkblast?
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Raging Ravine
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Graven Cairns
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Griselbrand
3 Borborygmos Enraged
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil
Enchantments (2)
2 Seismic Assault
Spells (24)
4 Faithless Looting
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Raven's Crime
1 Flame Jab
2 Lightning Axe
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Drown in Filth
1 Mulch
4 Life from the Loam
1 Anger of the Gods
4 Unburial Rites
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Pithing Needle
1 Path to Exile
2 Thoughtseize
1 Flame Jab
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Stony Silence
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
- I went down to two Liliana of the Veils, thinking that there will be an influx of swarm decks and a decline in midrange decks like Jund. Zoo will pack lots of burn, so they can efficiently deal with her. Is this thinking right?
- I think my deck wants a sweeper maindeck, so I'm running with Anger of the Gods. It's a turn faster than Damnation and kills Wild Nacatl and Merfolk strategies.
- Stinkweed Imp might be my loosest card, but it's a strong dredger/combo enabler and can eat attackers. Then again, it just dies to Lightning Bolt or Lightning Helix. What do y'all think? Should I just play another Drown in Filth or Mulch in its place? something else?
- The sideboard is where I have the most questions. I assume Pod decks are gonna be REALLY strong in the new meta, so I think Pithing Needles are a must. They're also good against Relic of Progenitus. That said, should I include a card like Extirpate to nail a Persist creature/combo piece? Might be good against Twin, too.
- Path to Exile is for Tron and Twin. I don't think Tron is gonna be as prevalent, so I'm only running one Path now instead of two.
- Two Volcanic Fallouts ... how prevalent does everyone think Faeries are gonna be? Fallout doesn't kill Wild Nacatl and a post-Lord Merfolk, which is why I'm considering running just one and either a Damnation or another Anger of the Gods in its place.
Thanks, everybody!
I'd cut a Volcanic Fallout for an Anger of the Gods. If you need to beat Faeries, more Flame Jabs seems like a better option.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Young Pyromancer is really good in this deck too. The reason I would say Young Pyromancer is a good option over even Goyf is because it's something that does not rely on the graveyard, and gives your deck a way to play through hate or another dimension of attack. Plus in the event that you get retrace/loam engine going, you produce so many more tokens then bitter blossom.
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Stomping Ground
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Blood Crypt
4 Graven Cairn
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Twilight Mire
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Countryside Crusher
3 Planeswalkers:
3 Liliana of the Veil
19 Spells:
4 Life From the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
3 Faithless Looting
3 Flame Jab
3 Raven's Crime
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Worm Harvest
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Obstinate Baloth
2 Pyroclasm
2 Jund Charm
2 Thoughtseize
Based on some of the posts I've read above, I'd decided to relunctantly try getting rid of the Countryside Crushers and see how I like it. The Worm Harvest, too, mostly due to Bob potentially Shrapnel Blasting us as pointed out above. So this opens up 4 slots. Also based on the above commentary, one slot is definitely going to the 4th Faithless Looting, leaving us with 3. And I think I know what I want to do with another one of the slots, which leads to the first question:
1. Almost every Aggro Loam list I see runs 3 Seismic Assualts. Would it be such a mistake to run the 4th? I assume the rationale against it is how multiples are blanks. indeed they are, BUT... isn't it important enough to draw one that the risk of holding onto a blank is worth maximizing the odds of drawing the first? This may be a matter of opinion, but again, the wide consensus seems to be 3 across the board. I ran 4 back in the day and even shaved one just based on all the lists I'd seen. Now, obviously, I'm reconsidering. lol
2. What is the deal with all the Blackleave Cliffs everyone runs? I get how sweet they must be turns 1 through 3, but beyond that, isn't it just pointlessly coming in tapped? From playing Loam in the past I know this tends to matter much less later in the game, but unless we reeeeally need to avoid shocking ourselves with our lands, isn't it just kind of unnecessary? Not saying BAD, per se, just unecessary(?). I definitely expect I'm wrong here, would just like to better understand why.
3. Those were really my only 2 pressing questions, but since I went ahead and typed up the list, I might as well ask for any recommendations for the final 2 (or 3 if the argument against the 4th Seismic is compelling) vacated slots? I feel like I can come up with and try out decent ideas on my own, BUT also value the opinions of the experts and am not yet married to anything. So may as well see what you guys think. Possible ideas off the top of my head:
- The 4th Raven's Crime
- The 4th Flame Jab
- 2 Abrupt Decay (in which case maybe replace the 2 A.D.s in the board w/ Maelstrom Pulses? Just thinkin' out loud. lol)
- 2 Young Pyromancer. I never would have come to the Pyro conclusion on my own, but I've definitely seen his praises sung more than once. I kinda down I'll go that route, but if anyone happens to be of the opinion that a duo of Y.P. is the perfect way to round out the list, it's certainly worth tryin' em out. <shrug>
- A couple of Terminates or something like that.
To anyone still reading, I appreciate the time and any potential insights. I played a ton of the Naya version of Aggro Loam years ago, but haven't really gotten much chance to test since switching to the Jund version listed above. So unfortunately I'm mostly playing Theory Fighter thus far, aside from knowing that the core works. Though as mentioned, regarding the 4th Seismic Assualt, back in the day I never would've considered going down to 3. lol But I also wasn't working with the Crime/Jab retrace package back then, so maybe sticking a Seismic isn't as critical in this kind of build?
OK, going into ramble mode. Catching self and going to bed. Thanks again, and have a nice morning/afternoon/evening/night!
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern:
GW GW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG
RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR
R Robots with burn R
1) The problem with 4 Seismics is, that if you ever draw a second one, it is a dead draw most of the time. Sure you can cycle it with the Lootings/ Lili but you need to have them.
2) Blackleave Cliffs are pretty insane in this deck. You need untapped lands the first few turns to play discard, looting, loam and many more cards. If you don´t play the Cliffs and instead you play fetchlands, you would take at least 3 damage from it, which could be prevented. The main point of this is, that you have no lifegain in this deck. Every point of damage hurts and because of the Manabase you are already dealing yourself enough damage. So a dual, which don´t hurt you is pretty insane.
3) The fourth Looting + 2x, but I wouldn´t play the Young Pyromancer, if you want to play him, you need all 4.
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Any suggestions on how to tailor this deck to manamorphose/fast lands and the 2013 core set lands?
Here is my first attempt at a budget list (no sideboard yet:
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Quirion Dryad
3 Countryside Crusher
Enchantments (3):
3 Seismic Assault
Instants/Sorceries (25):
4 Life From The Loam
3 Manamorphose
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Slagstorm/Wrath of the Gods
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Flame Jab
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Forest
8 Mountain
2 Ghost Quarter
Here are some of my thought processes on card choices:
-Quirion Dryad is my budget replacement for Tarmogoyf. I think it could work very well because every card outside of Life From The Loam and the other two copies of itself pumps it up with a counter. There are 7 "free" cantriping spells between Gitaxian Probe and Manamorphose to do this. There are also 11 1 CMC spells that can help with this too. With a Flame Jab in the graveyard it is pretty much copies 4-6 of Countryside Crusher.
-Young Pyromancer wants to play off cheap free cantriping spells the same way that Quirion Dryad does.
-What is kind of cool is this deck can totally operate with a Blood Moon in play. Blood Moon would barely have any drawback because I can still reliably get green mana with manamorphose or my basic forests. Should I play it maindeck?
-I also know that a lot of people think that Hero of Leina Tower is a horrible/terrible card, but I actually think there is a use for it in this deck. With Flame Jab we have a consistent and reliable heroic enabler that allows us to just sink mana into it. If you think about it that way Heero of Leina Tower is actually an awesome top deck. Since the triggered ability goes on the stack above Flame Jab it doesn't matter if Flame Jab is countered or deals one damage. Hero of Leina Tower can obviously be killed in response by any burn or removal spell, but it is something to think about. I haven't included it yet because I am curious to hear what other people think about Hero in the deck.
1. I saw some article where a guy talked about Aggro Loam using Grizzly Savage, a card which admittedly I wasn't aware of prior. It looks like it could have nice synergy and potential with our gameplan, but I don't recall seeing it mentioned in this thread before. Has this card been tested and found to be underwhelming for us? I figure if it was that great, I'd have already seen it in a bunch of lists. What do you guys think?
2. Just curious, how aggressively do you guys tend to mulligan with this deck? I figure opinions will likely range on this one, but would very much like to know what you guys, the experts, really want to see most when looking at your opening hand. Especially since I'm personally so new to the Jund-color version of the deck.
Cloudman: you'll definitely want to do some testing before trying to make an Aggro Loam while missing all those pieces. Its not even the Bobs or Goyfs that have me 'concerned,' as much as your lacking fetchlands. They're pretty key to the deck. BUT, it very well may work fine w/o em, I'd just test pretty rigorously to make sure your land base works.
As for other cards in lieu of those pieces, maybe go a more control-ish mid-range-y sort of route with cards like Abrupt Decay, Terminate, Maelstrom Pulse, Bolts, etc? Hard to say w/o knowing which pieces you DO have, you know?
Another thought, if you're lacking Bobs and Lilis, is going the Naya route. As mentioned above, I used to play a bunch of Naya Loam. And while I'm pretty convinced the Jund versions we see nowadays are probably better, if you've got Knights of the Relequaries and Lightning Helixes(and Bolts) and a Path or two, they could make for more than adequate substitutes. <shrug>
Kathal: Thanks for the input! For point 1, I acknowledged in my post that redundant Seismics are indeed dead, but posited that increasing the odds of hitting the first one might more than compensate for that problem. In the Naya build, Assault+Loam was definitely the resounding Plan A, where as with Jund, it probably still is, but it appears the other stuff (like the Crimes and Jabs) could be strong enough to hold while we wait for a Seismic.
For point 2, alright ill assume I was very wrong on this and test with the Cliffs before trying to make judgements on em.
And for point 3, definitely did NOT wanna go the Pyromancer route, so the decision not to run 2 is that much easier to make, thanks. Lol. Maybe for those last 2 slots could do something like a pair of Bolts, or maybe 2 Eternal Witnesses? Or...
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern:
GW GW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG
RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR
R Robots with burn R
What do you think about Hero of Leina Tower with Flame Jab? Flame Jab seems like the perfect heroic enabler to turn Hero into a mana sink. It is too bad that it is a sorcery speed mana sink, but a mana sink is a mana sink and it is repeatable.
1. The decision of 3 or 4 of Seismic Assault really depends on your build. If you are going with a midrange build (which it looks like you are), the preference recently has been to run 4. True, extra copies are dead but Thoughtseize, Abrupt Decay and Qasali Pridemage exist. So having back ups is never that bad. Especially when it is your primary wincon. I ran 3 for awhile in my RUG build to see if it was necessary to have 4 and found that I'd much rather have a back up than not. Plus, it helps with consistency. Making sure you hit Assault turn 3 more often than not.
2. The utility and inclusion of the Fastlands comes more from how the deck plays out. More often than not, you are going to hit 3 or 4 lands in play and not need to play any more. With an Assault in play, all you need to cast is Loam. In my RUG list I tend to hit 4 lands just so I can Snapcaster Mage+Deprive if I need to. It is very rare that you'll be needing to get a ton of lands in play (on of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of Lavaclaw Reaches here). So, if you can get your color fixing in without taking a ton of damage, it's only beneficial. I don't think any list needs more than 3, but that is definitely the right number for any midrange build.
3. I'd probably recommend running Maelstrom Pulse over Abrupt Decay in the last two slots. A lot of people have been building decks to get around Abrupt Decay. So having a more versatile card in Pulse is a bit better in my opinion. I run a 2/1 split MB in favor of Pulse in my GB Zombie deck and it has worked well for me. I think those slots should be determined by your metagame though. Having some flex spots is always nice for sideboarding as well as mainboard tuning. I don't think you need more than 3 Flame Jab for what it's worth. Though that may be wrong depending on how the new meta shapes up.
1. We've talked about Grisly Salvage and cards like it a couple times before. Grisly Salvage is probably the weakest of the options to be honest. Mulch and Commune with the Gods are probably better if you want to run an effect like this. Mulch as a pseudo-Loam and Commune as a pseudo-Assault tutor. It just comes down to lists being very tight on card space. You already have variations of these effects that are more proactive or better costed. So, if you want the added redundancy, they aren't necessarily bad. There's just limited space and these types of cards just barely miss the cut off.
2. Hands with these decks are usually fairly forgiving. There are a lot of ways to pull yourself out of card disadvantage. The main things I look for are having 2-3 lands that produce the colors I need for the first few turns (that's probably the biggest thing) and checking to see that there is at least some action in my hand. Either digging spells or removal. So basically, I want a hand that is looking to set up the lock asap or is able to stall a bit until I get things rolling. Almost any hand with a Loam is worth keeping as it fuels all the other cards in your deck.
I'd recommend trying to get a playset of Stomping Ground while they are still in standard and not terribly expensive.
I think you need to look at the way you are going to build this deck differently than most of the lists posted here. There is no real replacement for Goyf. Don't run bad cards like Vinelash Kudzu or Quirion Dryad trying to replace it. You're going to want to go with a fast aggro plan with the possibility of an Assault+Loam end game. So, I'd recommend cards like Experiment One, Goblin Guide, Flinthoof Boar, and Strangleroot Geist. Undercosted haste dudes are where you want to be.
Manamorphose and Gitaxian Probe are technically "free" spells but when you are running an aggro deck, they are information that you don't have. If you look at your opening hand of 1 land, 3 creatures, bolt and manamorphose and probe; the question of "Can I keep that hand?" becomes much more difficult. You don't know what your next few cards are. So if you can't cycle into the cards you need, then you kept a bad hand. I hope that makes sense... On one hand, yes, you are making your deck smaller and "more consistent" but it lends itself to limiting the information you have access to. I'd rather just redundant cards.
I'd probably run something like this:
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
3 Mountain
2 Forest
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Experiment One
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Flinthoof Boar
2 Hellrider
3 Seismic Assault
3 Life from the Loam
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Flame Jab
At least that's where I'd start.
Here's one of my old lists that I found when digging through my cards:
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Faithless Looting
3 Flame Jab
2 Pyroclasm
4 Life from the Loam
Instants
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Desperate Ravings
3 Seismic Assault
Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Raging Ravine
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Watery Grave
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Graven Cairns
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
I like the idea of blanking the opponent's removal and using Raven's Crime and Flame Jab to grind out games. If Faeries gets really popular, the Flame Jabs will do some work. I can imagine Zoo to be a tough matchup though with all of their X/3's so Firespout might be better than Pyroclasm maindeck.
Modern: G/R Tron + RUG Scapeshift
Legacy: Reanimator
Standard: G/b Devotion
Capt. Nick: Hey, GREAT information, thank you! And you're totally right about not needing to continually drop lands, it's been so long since I really PLAYED the damn deck, should probably do more of that before challenging the establishment. I'm glad to see we're on the same page about the 4th Seismic Assault (ie. that it CAN be a good idea). I didn't really consider the back up copy aspect as much as the consistency argument. But both are good reasons to run, or at the very least test, 4 Seismics.
I actually kinda' reconsidered on removing the Worm Harvest, but once again I need to just PLAY some games before making decisions about it (friend availability is what's preventing this mainly). So if -3 Countryside Crusher, +1 Faithless Looting... I'm thinkin' if I DO put the 4th Assault back in, the last spot can just be a Pulse per your recommendation. If I DO opt to take out the Worm Harvest, I kinda like the singleton Eternal Witness idea. And if I ultimately decide to keep to 3 Assaults (admittedly not likely), will probably make it a 2nd Pulse.
Nick, I'll have to take a look at your RUG list too. I doubt I'm gonna change my colors again, but the prospect of Blue in Aggro Loam is, at worst, pretty neat.
Thanks again, all!
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern:
GW GW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG
RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR
R Robots with burn R
2nd mortgage?
Also very much into fighting games (mostly UMvC3) and chess, feel free to hit me up about either!
Modern:
GW GW Sovereigning Trap (my own design, feedback welcome!) WG
RGB Aggro Loam (does a more fun deck exist?) BGR
R Robots with burn R