@ Redflare - I don't see why you are boarding against splinter twin as your main board is very well equipped to beat it in the first place. Not too mention you already have torpor orbs for the birthing pod match up. At first I didn't like tarfire looking at your list but I get why it is in there and that is a decent idea. I think planeswalkers are probably better for you to pump that goyf extra, I would probably go with garruk relentless IMO. As for some yard hate I don't see why surical, tormod's crypt or grafdiggers cage couldn't be your hate. They are all decent ideas.
@peikko - You seem to have most of the creatureless list already, i would highly suggest trying to pilot it. I had a lot of fun with it this Saturday and I almost have the hatebears match up figured out.
On a side note. I finally got to see top control in action and it was a match up that seems extremely and incredibly in our favor, even with recurring tormod's crypt on their side.
Still haven't figured out the hate bears match up... stupid wilt-leaf liege and loxodon smiter! Ha ha. I can't seem to play around these enough that I am considering so many odd options to make the match up more favorable. I am considering damnation sideboard to wipe their board. I have also considered that since I am playing creatureless aggro loam, that my opponent will board out path to exile which means I can drop horobi, death's wail to make any flame jab an auto kill spell, I am also really considering ensnaring bridge.
Yeah, current problem with Liliana is the budget and availability (can't really borrow it from anyone and I've bought the fetches, pulses, decays and EE's and some other stuff during last month or so). I agree that it's a great card though and would really like to play a couple more of those.
One thing I could probably do is move the Pyroclasms (it doesn't quite work with Shaman) to sideboard, add a couple of Lightning Bolt to main, drop Smallpox out and maybe move the Pulse to main or increase the Decays to a full set. With Golgari Charm in the sideboard I could probably drop one Pyroclasm all together. I might also be able to drop either Rakdos Charm or Damping Matrix as they aren't necessarily both needed. Scavenging Ooze might not be a bad choice either and I also have two or three Kitchen Finks though I think I prefer Deathrite to Finks. It's so nice against opposing Snapcasters or Oozes and other things. But I'll know more once I've tried this out. Sadly there's modern tournaments only once a month locally.
I do think that I really need some dredge as it's so good with Haakon and Inversion. I probably can't drop those before I get Tarmogoyfs or Dark Confidants or more Lilianas or get access to blue. And without a good commitment to blue I can't really use Izzet Charms, which would be an amazing card in this deck. I miss blue so much My old version was a little less committed to Assault and quite a lot more committed to dredge. Imp isn't that bad if there are some evil monstrosities like Wurmcoil or pretty much any other nasty stuff on the other side.
Sorry, didn't see this post before I commented earlier today. I was at work on my phone. Makes it difficult to post in general. Haha.
I get why Deathrite Shaman is an amazing card in this format but I still am unsure of it's utility in a Loam deck. You are operating out of your graveyard and Shaman directly preys on it. Eating a Fetch to play turn 2 Assault just seems... meh. I think you'd be happier with Scavenging Ooze but it isn't a 1-drop. It's a tough call but that's just my two cents on the subject. Ooze would also allow you to keep MB Pyroclasm.
I could see why you are leaning on Dredge to get Haakon going but it just looks like you're wasting slots that would be better used for extra disruption or removal. Maybe something like Mulch or Commune with the Gods would serve you better in the interim. They'll fill your 'yard but also work towards powering up/tutoring for Assault. Something to think about.
I wouldn't recommend 4 Decays. They are a good card, but they aren't the catch-all that it sounds like on paper. I run a 2/2 split between Decay and Pulse in my GB Aggro deck and am really happy with that. I'd suggest that as a starting place and see how it treats you.
@redflare: Let me know when you have a Naya list that you are having success with and I'll update the Primer with it. It looks like it is coming together for you. I may sleeve up your list (or something similar depending on what cards I have available) for my LGS's tournament on Wednesday.
@mykatdied: I haven't had to play against HateBears much but the matches I have played, it came down to me getting the engine online quickly or not. Their LD doesn't affect us much and outside of fetches, we don't tutor. So killing off their dudes with Assault seals the game fairly easily. Smiter and Liege are annoying with Pox and Liliana. I think of the answers you listed, Ensnaring Bridge is probably the best one. I'd assume your hand is never particularly huge unless you are winning (aka full of lands). So that would put a good damper on them. Especially if it is Leige that they cheaty-faced into play pumping their other dudes out of attacking range.
Horobi sounds like it'd be hilariously fun to play with Flame Jab but it seems a bit too vulnerable, even with them boarding out removal for game 2. I can look into more tools to combat HateBears if you want. I wouldn't say it is a particularly easy match up for us but probably along the 50-50 side of things. In the few games I've played, it is either I assembled the engine quickly and rolled them or I took a few too many turns (or they had turn 1 vial) to put things together and couldn't come back. Random 4/4s are a pain. Haha.
So in my creatureless list I have 3 raven's crime, 4 smallpox and 3 liliana. All non targeted discard which works very well against essentially every other match up, so I am not about to try and change it. I just board out raven's crime and inquisition because discard really doesn't get there. I bring in decay and explosives knowing that I am getting hit by rest in peace. I did get lucky and trick him into discarding a wilt-leaf to smallpox, which he then had to sacrifice to smallpox. Only problem there was he has a vial down so he was able to recover with hierarch, voice, smiter, liege off the vial... I can't complain about losing to that. One of the matches I have lost was on the draw, him dropping leonin arbiter and then double ghost quarter on me. Just couldn't recover from that quick enough.
One issue I have found thus far is fighting a rest in peace all while controlling the board. It gets tough but I have had a lot of decent luck so far against that. Against control it isn't a worry of mine, against aggro rest in peace just gets that much more effective. I think ensnaring bridge will be my first option. Horobi was just a very cutesy idea I randomly came up with because I was trying to figure out how to make my flame jabs better against anything bigger than a x/2. I think if I want removal then damnation is where I would be. Bridge seems better since I can kill them with it on board (being that I am "creatureless"), and they can't kill me. Anything they have that can attack through it dies to a flame jab or single assault activation.
Moral of the story... those are just a few decent ideas I came up with. One is cuter than the others.
@mykatdied: You make a valid point about the black splash and sideboard. I'll try a few of those suggestions and drop the black splash for now.
@Capt. Nick: I'll keep you posted with my lists. Right now I'm trying a bunch of variants to see what cards have good synergy in a loam build. I'm actually also playing something really similar to the 4-0 RG list you posted a few pages back. Only difference in my list is Goblin Guide over Countryside Crusher, and no Gitaxian Probe. I might try the Crushers, but they don't seem great with so few lands.
This is my latest list. It's by far the most consistent list I've tested. Dropped Knight because it was just too slow/expensive kin my testing. Sideboard could use some work.
@redflare: I like the second sideboard choice a bit better. Though I think you could wrap Finks and Smiter into one with Obstinate Baloth and open up some slots for another Pridemage and maybe a Back to Nature. The list looks good though. I'll update the OP.
Sad to hear Knight was too slow for you but I can understand it.
@Just Me: While I wouldn't rule those cards out completely, they have less synergy with the deck than Mulch or Commune with the Gods. Generally, I've never felt like I have too little dig to effectively hit what I need to that those types of cards would be necessary. Though their inclusion would be dependent on the specific build of the deck.
Knight too slow? I am lost on this idea. Our deck is slow... We don't storm off on turn 3, we don't go nuts with splinter twin on turn 4, we don't drop a bunch of tribal creatures into play turn 3/4 and swing for a huge amount. We control the board for 5/6 turns while we assemble a win condition, then drop a bomb and win or in my case, build up enough lands in hand to shock up to 10 times.
@Capt. Nick: I was mostly thinking Smiter for his uncounterable clause so I would have a threat against UWR control that gets around bolt, spellsnare, and mana leak. But I'm dropping Finks anyway the deck is already strong against aggro. This is what I'm thinking.
@mykatdied: My deck is more midrange aggro than control. I'm trying to win by dropping efficient threats that swing while I use removal to clear the board. The assault loam combo gives me a late game that can either grind out control decks, or clear the board of any blockers. Knight wasn't bad by any means but it has no evasion and often competed with Seismic Assault for what I wanted to drop on turn 3/4. I don't know maybe I'm wrong it's just what works for me.
You do have a more zooish feel to your list, so I can understand that. Knight does come with a toolbox for some forms of evasion. I think a singleton wolf run isn't bad for the late game getting knight damage through. Not sure what kind of decks you are playing against or having trouble with. If you posted anything on that I don't recall that I saw it. You do mention UWR control. I haven't had too much issue with that match up since they have to keep mana open to keep you at bay which means they aren't landing threats. Eventually we just grind them out.
From what I know, a slower loam assault deck has trouble beating RDW so lifegain is important in some way. I know Dragon's Claw is the card most players use but I was thinking of trying Dark Heart of the Wood. Has anyone tried that card? To me it seems like it will gain more life/turn compared to the claw but I may be wrong.
I think the advantage to dragon's claw is that your opponent's spells will help you gain life, as well as your flame jabs which could be up to 3 life gained a turn while either controlling your opponents board or putting a dent in your opponent's life total when the board is clear.
From what I know, a slower loam assault deck has trouble beating RDW so lifegain is important in some way. I know Dragon's Claw is the card most players use but I was thinking of trying Dark Heart of the Wood. Has anyone tried that card? To me it seems like it will gain more life/turn compared to the claw but I may be wrong.
Dark Heart of the Wood suffers from the same problem that Trade Routes does; it actively prevents you from progressing your board-state. Without being able to break the one land per turn rule, you will only gain three life a turn. Not that three life isn't game changing (basically counters a card against Burn) but the fact that you are keeping yourself from working towards better plays by spending 2 mana on Loam and then saccing your land drop. Essentially, if you are at a point where you can sac the land without a problem, then you've already stabilized and if you aren't stabilized, saccing the lands won't pull you back into the game.
Dragon's Claw will at least work with your deck and also against an opposing Burn deck. Which makes it better but I still don't think something like that is worth the sideboard slot. It's not as proactive as I think our deck aims to be. I'd rather run something like Kitchen Finks, Obstinate Baloth, more counter spells, Leyline of Sanctity. Something along those lines.
Burn in modern scares me far less than in legacy. They mostly rely on creatures and we can handle that. The ones that don't rely on creatures just aren't as reliable and we are likely to be able to race them as they stall out. I do however think that dragon's claw is probably key as it can help us win the race against many different aggro style decks aside from burn.
You do have a more zooish feel to your list, so I can understand that. Knight does come with a toolbox for some forms of evasion. I think a singleton wolf run isn't bad for the late game getting knight damage through. Not sure what kind of decks you are playing against or having trouble with. If you posted anything on that I don't recall that I saw it. You do mention UWR control. I haven't had too much issue with that match up since they have to keep mana open to keep you at bay which means they aren't landing threats. Eventually we just grind them out.
I play in tournament testing on mtgo, so I see a lot of stuff. Off the top of my head Splinter Twin, Ad Nauseum, Hive Mind, UWR Control, Jund, GW Hate Bears, Affinity, Grixis/5c Cruel Control, Storm Ascension, UR Delver, RUG aggro, BUG aggro, Tron variants.
Control isn't a bad matchup you're right that you can grind them out even if it's just with flame jab. Still I want to try smiter not just for control, but also against the blue aggro decks and jund. I have trouble with Ad Nauseum/Hive Mind and Storm for the most part. Jund is a hard one as well.
I'm gonna test Knight in place of Young Pyromancer that's a variant I haven't really tried, and it might curve well with ape/lion into goyf then knight.
If you're having trouble with Storm style combo decks, Ethersworn Canonist goes a long way in those match ups. It kind of interferes with Loam into Flame Jab but it will buy you a lot of time. Against Jund, you might want to look into going long game with Sigarda in the sideboard. I haven't really had a ton of trouble with Jund in my list. I generally tuned my Mainboard to deal with it though. You should be able to out-attrition them with Loam and Assault/Jab though. Goyf is really the biggest problem and there isn't much to do against that other than Path it or Goyfs of your own. Elspeth, Knight-Errant may be able to help break that match up in your favor. Any of the Ajanis seem good as well.
While I think Elspeth is the right choice for the deck, I would think Ajani Goldmane would be better for the build you most recently posted. With multiple dudes in play, he minuses to make your Apes and Lions 3/4s with Vigilance and your goyfs beat other goyfs. Or he comes in and gains you 7 life (2 for the plus and then 5 loyalty). It seems stronger than Vengent despite Vengent's popularity. I don't think you can really go wrong with any of them though.
Yeah he seems like a great tool against burn and aggro even if he isn't great in the main Ill try him in the sideboard. I'm definitely going to try 3 cost Ajani to see of the +1/+1 counter ability is useful. It seems like it could be great for trumping opposing goyfs and after a few turns you'll have a huge creature to give double strike/flying to end the game.
Well, played RUG Loam at my LGS this evening to a dismal 1-2 in a tourney of 8 people. The games I won, I crushed but I think I just forgot how to mulligan properly. I kept some kind of loose hands and got punished for it. I can post more info on the evening but it isn't really all that exciting. I either had control into the combo and won, or I didn't see jack and lost. Played against BW Tokens, 5 color Defenders?, and MonoG Devotion Combo. Lost to Tokens and Devotion. The deck feels powerful still, just my poor piloting.
Would dropping the guides and going 4x ape 4x lion be the way to go? Goblin guide is awesome but giving free cards to your opponent kind of sucks, and it adds some resilience to pyroclasm. I'll test waves of aggression although 5 mana is a lot, it likely wins the game on the spot.
I've also tested this pyromancer loam list and it definitely has some cool interactions like being able to put counters on ascension with just 2 flame jabs, but it's rather clunky.
I dropped the morphs out of this lists and added commute with the gods as well as an extra fire-lit Thicket and this rg list is running extremely fast. I'm just now getting into modern and have been playing the Jund version of assault Loam -goyf +dryads, this version seems to just run way faster and the communes help fill the yard up faster. I really like the deck and hope to make it a competitor.
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@peikko - You seem to have most of the creatureless list already, i would highly suggest trying to pilot it. I had a lot of fun with it this Saturday and I almost have the hatebears match up figured out.
On a side note. I finally got to see top control in action and it was a match up that seems extremely and incredibly in our favor, even with recurring tormod's crypt on their side.
Still haven't figured out the hate bears match up... stupid wilt-leaf liege and loxodon smiter! Ha ha. I can't seem to play around these enough that I am considering so many odd options to make the match up more favorable. I am considering damnation sideboard to wipe their board. I have also considered that since I am playing creatureless aggro loam, that my opponent will board out path to exile which means I can drop horobi, death's wail to make any flame jab an auto kill spell, I am also really considering ensnaring bridge.
Sorry, didn't see this post before I commented earlier today. I was at work on my phone. Makes it difficult to post in general. Haha.
I get why Deathrite Shaman is an amazing card in this format but I still am unsure of it's utility in a Loam deck. You are operating out of your graveyard and Shaman directly preys on it. Eating a Fetch to play turn 2 Assault just seems... meh. I think you'd be happier with Scavenging Ooze but it isn't a 1-drop. It's a tough call but that's just my two cents on the subject. Ooze would also allow you to keep MB Pyroclasm.
I could see why you are leaning on Dredge to get Haakon going but it just looks like you're wasting slots that would be better used for extra disruption or removal. Maybe something like Mulch or Commune with the Gods would serve you better in the interim. They'll fill your 'yard but also work towards powering up/tutoring for Assault. Something to think about.
I wouldn't recommend 4 Decays. They are a good card, but they aren't the catch-all that it sounds like on paper. I run a 2/2 split between Decay and Pulse in my GB Aggro deck and am really happy with that. I'd suggest that as a starting place and see how it treats you.
@redflare: Let me know when you have a Naya list that you are having success with and I'll update the Primer with it. It looks like it is coming together for you. I may sleeve up your list (or something similar depending on what cards I have available) for my LGS's tournament on Wednesday.
@mykatdied: I haven't had to play against HateBears much but the matches I have played, it came down to me getting the engine online quickly or not. Their LD doesn't affect us much and outside of fetches, we don't tutor. So killing off their dudes with Assault seals the game fairly easily. Smiter and Liege are annoying with Pox and Liliana. I think of the answers you listed, Ensnaring Bridge is probably the best one. I'd assume your hand is never particularly huge unless you are winning (aka full of lands). So that would put a good damper on them. Especially if it is Leige that they cheaty-faced into play pumping their other dudes out of attacking range.
Horobi sounds like it'd be hilariously fun to play with Flame Jab but it seems a bit too vulnerable, even with them boarding out removal for game 2. I can look into more tools to combat HateBears if you want. I wouldn't say it is a particularly easy match up for us but probably along the 50-50 side of things. In the few games I've played, it is either I assembled the engine quickly and rolled them or I took a few too many turns (or they had turn 1 vial) to put things together and couldn't come back. Random 4/4s are a pain. Haha.
One issue I have found thus far is fighting a rest in peace all while controlling the board. It gets tough but I have had a lot of decent luck so far against that. Against control it isn't a worry of mine, against aggro rest in peace just gets that much more effective. I think ensnaring bridge will be my first option. Horobi was just a very cutesy idea I randomly came up with because I was trying to figure out how to make my flame jabs better against anything bigger than a x/2. I think if I want removal then damnation is where I would be. Bridge seems better since I can kill them with it on board (being that I am "creatureless"), and they can't kill me. Anything they have that can attack through it dies to a flame jab or single assault activation.
Moral of the story... those are just a few decent ideas I came up with. One is cuter than the others.
@Capt. Nick: I'll keep you posted with my lists. Right now I'm trying a bunch of variants to see what cards have good synergy in a loam build. I'm actually also playing something really similar to the 4-0 RG list you posted a few pages back. Only difference in my list is Goblin Guide over Countryside Crusher, and no Gitaxian Probe. I might try the Crushers, but they don't seem great with so few lands.
4 Arid mesa
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Flame Jab
4 Faithless Looting
3 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Pilar of Flame
2 Torpor Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Revoke Existence
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
I'm thinking maybe this for the SB.
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Loxodon Smiter
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Revoke Existence
1 Stony Silence
Sad to hear Knight was too slow for you but I can understand it.
@Just Me: While I wouldn't rule those cards out completely, they have less synergy with the deck than Mulch or Commune with the Gods. Generally, I've never felt like I have too little dig to effectively hit what I need to that those types of cards would be necessary. Though their inclusion would be dependent on the specific build of the deck.
4 Arid mesa
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Stomping Ground
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Flame Jab
4 Faithless Looting
3 Path to Exile
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Loxodon Smiter
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Back to Nature
1 Revoke Existence
1 Stony Silence
@mykatdied: My deck is more midrange aggro than control. I'm trying to win by dropping efficient threats that swing while I use removal to clear the board. The assault loam combo gives me a late game that can either grind out control decks, or clear the board of any blockers. Knight wasn't bad by any means but it has no evasion and often competed with Seismic Assault for what I wanted to drop on turn 3/4. I don't know maybe I'm wrong it's just what works for me.
I think the advantage to dragon's claw is that your opponent's spells will help you gain life, as well as your flame jabs which could be up to 3 life gained a turn while either controlling your opponents board or putting a dent in your opponent's life total when the board is clear.
Dark Heart of the Wood suffers from the same problem that Trade Routes does; it actively prevents you from progressing your board-state. Without being able to break the one land per turn rule, you will only gain three life a turn. Not that three life isn't game changing (basically counters a card against Burn) but the fact that you are keeping yourself from working towards better plays by spending 2 mana on Loam and then saccing your land drop. Essentially, if you are at a point where you can sac the land without a problem, then you've already stabilized and if you aren't stabilized, saccing the lands won't pull you back into the game.
Dragon's Claw will at least work with your deck and also against an opposing Burn deck. Which makes it better but I still don't think something like that is worth the sideboard slot. It's not as proactive as I think our deck aims to be. I'd rather run something like Kitchen Finks, Obstinate Baloth, more counter spells, Leyline of Sanctity. Something along those lines.
I play in tournament testing on mtgo, so I see a lot of stuff. Off the top of my head Splinter Twin, Ad Nauseum, Hive Mind, UWR Control, Jund, GW Hate Bears, Affinity, Grixis/5c Cruel Control, Storm Ascension, UR Delver, RUG aggro, BUG aggro, Tron variants.
Control isn't a bad matchup you're right that you can grind them out even if it's just with flame jab. Still I want to try smiter not just for control, but also against the blue aggro decks and jund. I have trouble with Ad Nauseum/Hive Mind and Storm for the most part. Jund is a hard one as well.
I'm gonna test Knight in place of Young Pyromancer that's a variant I haven't really tried, and it might curve well with ape/lion into goyf then knight.
I dropped the morphs out of this lists and added commute with the gods as well as an extra fire-lit Thicket and this rg list is running extremely fast. I'm just now getting into modern and have been playing the Jund version of assault Loam -goyf +dryads, this version seems to just run way faster and the communes help fill the yard up faster. I really like the deck and hope to make it a competitor.