I'm actually running it with seismic assault also. If you have seismic on board, and a dakmor salvage in the yard and at least one lands in hand, you auto win. In response to path you discard the land to dredge the salvage, then pitch salvage to dredge the salvage until they die
Edit, this was suppose to be a reply to someone pay about the gitrog monster
I went 3-3, though with some better plays/luck, I think I could have gone 4-2, which would have been good enough to get into the top 8.
Jeskai Nahiri: 1-2
Game 1: Dropping Goyfs on turn 2 and 3 was too much. Short game.
Game 2: Brought in my control package of Thrun, Defense Grid, and 2x Guttural. This was a pretty long and messy game where I killed a couple of Nahiris, but he had Nihil Spellbombed out two of my Loams and Faithless Lootings, so we were topdecking until he found another Nahiri. Couldn't find Loam so she eventually ulted.
Game 3: I had a solid hand with my one-of Thrun and a couple of other threats. When I dropped Thrun on turn 4, he thought he had lost, but a clutch Timely Reinforcements got him back in the game and clogged up the board. I swear I dug in 20-25 cards deep without finding a Loam, but it was a tight game even with me throwing topdecked lands at his stuff. He exiled a bunch of Molten Vortexes and I ran out of gas.
Elves: 0-2
Game 1: I kept a shaky hand and got punished for it. Didn't have Molten/Seismic, but had 1-2 dig spells that unfortunately missed. He also had pretty much a great draw and went off pretty early.
Game 2: Brought in 3x Anger and 1x Ensnaring Bridge. Drew into both Angers as his board was developing, but he was able to Coco into an Ezuri and use Archdruid mana to save the key pieces from the first Anger. At least I got rid of Ezuri, which he told me was a 2-of. Next turn he topdecks the other Ezuri which let him swing in for lethal. Bad luck. This is usually a solid 2-0 for me. There's a guy at our FNMs who plays basically the same deck, and I've never lost. Sucks that my first loss to this deck had to be here.
Naya Burn: 2-1
Game 1: Goyfs took it away. Looking at the life pad, he went 20-17-13-9-0. I love playing against Goblin Guides when they just fuel Molten Vortex.
Game 2: Brought in Burn/Aggro package of 3x Sun Droplet and 1x Kitchen Finks. I only recently found out about Sun Droplet and I really recommend trying it out. At first reading, I thought it was kind of mediocre until I realized it happened on each upkeep. Anyway, this game I had trouble building up a board and he got what he needed.
Game 3: He had to mull down to 3, but oddly enough still put up a decent fight. Well timed Destructive Revelry for my Sun Droplet had me worried, as well as finding 2x Eidolons, but ultimately it was still a mull to 3.
RG Tron: 2-0
Game 1: I felt bad about this one as it was just brutal. I drew into a Loam lock with Ghost Quarter and started playing a war of attrition. He played a main deck Crucible of Worlds thinking he'd escaped it, but I dropped a Scooze right after that to make it completely useless. Pinged him to death 2 damage at a time with an unbuffed Scooze while keeping him on 3 lands.
Game 2: Brought in 2x Destructive Revelry. I dropped Blood Moon on turn 3 which he was clearly not happy about. I build up the board to Goyf, Scooze, Molten Vortex and he drops an O Stone thinking he's safe. I had been holding on to a Destructive Revelry since basically the beginning and blow up his O Stone, which when combining the 2 damage and the +1 to Goyf for instant finally being in the yard put him at exactly lethal. I honestly felt a bit bad at how one sided this match ended up going.
Merfolk: 0-2
Game 1: I don't even really know what went wrong here... I just couldn't find Loam when I needed it and he went off pretty quickly.
Game 2: Brought in 3x Anger. Had the board mostly under control, but it was a long and grindy game. He has lot of things that used up a lot of my land tosses like Kira, Great Glass Spinner. He managed to get his Vial up to 4 and brought out a Master of Waves on my endstep. On his following turn, he played a Phantasmal Image copying it. Couldn't do much about it. This is another match up that I'm usually comfortable with but just didn't turn out.
Grixis Control: 2-0
I'm calling this one Grixis Control even though it didn't actually have counterspells in it. It seemed basically like a Jund deck. Lots of kill spells, 4x Liliana of the Veil, and 4x Jace VP.
Game 1: Turn 3 Blood Moon basically locked him out of the game.
Game 2: Dropped an early Goyf and him Thought Scouring himself only made Goyf grow to a 5/6 insanely quickly. Only got to swing in once before it died, but after that I cleaned up with Molten Vortex.
Overall it was a lot of fun. I felt like I learned a bit for sure, but losing to matchups that should be on the easier side is a bit frustrating. I think this deck is definitely viable and I felt like top 8 was definitely within reach. It's such a good shell for Goyfs and main deck Blood Moons, and people really underestimate how devastating Molten Vortex can be. I think I should test Commune with the Gods a bit more. I think it could have dug further into the deck those times when I was struggling to find my Loams and might have been better than Tormenting Voice/Magmatic Insight.
Anyway, next PPTQ event is on August 27th so if I can make it I'll definitely be running this deck again!
So, I did a bit of rehauling of my 4c PyroPox Loam list. I've found a lot of problems with Smallpox. In a lot of cases outside the midgame it's downright worse than a bolt since it's a sacrifice effect. Even taking into account the discard as well I found that the cost of running Smallpox(running very few creatures and BB on turn 2) was very detrimental. In short: I durdled way too much. Lingering Souls is not a fast clock and pyromancer isn't either without a fair amount of support. Far too many games were lost because the opponent managed to cobble together the right combo of cards to kill me while I durdled looking for a Pyromancer or Seismic Assault to end the game.
I also went down to 25 lands because I very rarely find myself missing land drops/not having enough lands in the yard between Faithless Looting, dredging Loam, or even just through the large amount of fetches the deck runs. Even with cutting Smallpox I think I will have no issue getting lands into the bin. 25 lands is still quite a bit for a deck with as low curve as mine and still enough to feed the 4x Faithless Looting and Loam
-3 Smallpox Too many restrictions to use it. BB is awkward a lot of the time and skews the manabase a fair bit. Not running many creatures means that the only clocks I had were frequently combos in themselves. Pyromancer and Seismic Assault both require other pieces to be effective clocks. Lingering Souls is good for reasons other than being a clock. Raging Ravine is basically the only wincon in the deck that doesn't require other pieces to be decent and, well, winning with a creature land is just about the definition of durdle. Removal of Smallpox also allows me to run a wider range of sideboard cards such as Kitchen Finks which shores up aggro matches far better than Dragon's Claw. I remember cutting the 4th Smallpox a while back because the card is poor in multiplies if I don't have Loam backup. Well, I found that even in singles it tends to be poor without Loam backup. This deck is fairly mana-hungry in wanting to flashback those Faithless Looting and spam retrace spells after loaming and such. I love Smallpox dearly but it just hasn't worked out.
+4 Tarmogoyfs Here come the no-questions-asked clocks that I've been wanting. More creatures also makes my Commune With the Gods considerably better. This also makes any Pyroclasms/Angers in the board significantly better since I'll have a threat that survives through it(as opposed to young pyromancer or lingering souls) The deck still runs damn near half instants/sorceries so there's plenty of stuff to trigger Pyromancer.
-1 Seismic Assault I think this is much better as a backup wincon for when creatures don't quite get there. It's just way too durdly to rely on this as a wincon in modern. Between Faithless Looting and Commune With the Gods I found myself drawing the 2nd copy of this card way too often and being able to pitch it to Faithless Looting doesnt really make up for it. Again, also reduces the number of durdly wincons that require other pieces.
+1 Lightning Bolt: This makes 3. Hard to go wrong here. This may become a 3rd Abrupt Decay or maybe a Maelstrom Pulse/Terminate.
-1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth Less necessary with the removal of Smallpox. The need for triple or even quadruple black is much less now.
Smallpox requiring BB on T2 has opened up my manabase a bit. Copperline Gorges are to accomodate the earlier need for green mana with the addition of Goyfs. Cutting 1 Seismic Assault also allows me to distribute my mana sources a bit more evenly so -2 graven cairns for 2 twilight mire. Twilight Mire enables Turn 2 Abrupt decay very nicely while also allowing double green later in the game to cast some combination of Loam/Goyf/Commune/Abrupt Decay in the same turn.
As usual, not that great at manabases. Open to suggestions.
A more pointed question, more and more I play this the more I feel the 4th Faithless Looting is unnecessary. I always find myself with way more faithless lootings than I'll ever really cast. I feel like the card is better for lists that rely more heavily on Loam. Do you all think there is any merit to cutting the 4th Faithless Looting for another Bolt or Inquisition? What else would be a good replacement? Maybe a 1-of Traverse? Maybe a Scavenging Ooze to improve the Dredge matchup. God, not playing smallpox really opens up my options. In testing Commune with the Gods has been very good since it almost always hits now AND mills lands, lingering souls, and retrace cards. Maybe a 3rd one of those?
Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Personally I would never drop the 4th Faithless Looting. Although you may at times find more than you need, it is great late game should you need to dig. Being able to cast it with Flashback to dig for threats that you can't recur is very relevant. If you have too many, you just discard them when you cast 1. Since they recur it isn't an issue to bin them. Early game they can be very necessary to dig and sculpt your hand.
I personally would never go below 3 Seismic Assault or effects of that nature. It isn't just a win condition. It is also an instant speed answer to creatures, or the final X amount of damage to the face of your opponent. It is certainly a durdly win condition, but it works great with our loam value engine.
As for the mana base, I would still never go twilight over graven cairns. Twilight is find and everything, but you rarely ever need GG in a turn. If you do, you should be able to get a forest and Gx shockland from your deck. Having Cairns means you can more easily facilitate retracing a Flame Jab or Raven's Crime more consistently as well as multiples in a turn. I could see 1 mire and 2 Cairns. But not 2 Mire. I am not sure why you have a basic Plains in the deck either. You likely never need to worry about hardcasting Lingering Souls that much, where you need to ensure that you have a white mana source through a Blood Moon. The decks that run Blood Moon usually run several sweepers. Tokens are terrible in those match ups. Usually. Many Blue Moon players run Staticaster in my experience and having a basic Plains out could be the difference between casting an Abrupt Decay or not. I would have a second Swamp or Forest in that slot.
I agree about Smallpox. In Legacy where decks only run 15-21 Lands it is far easier to cripple them, whereas in Modern most decks run between 19-23.
Personally I would never drop the 4th Faithless Looting. Although you may at times find more than you need, it is great late game should you need to dig. Being able to cast it with Flashback to dig for threats that you can't recur is very relevant. If you have too many, you just discard them when you cast 1. Since they recur it isn't an issue to bin them. Early game they can be very necessary to dig and sculpt your hand.
I personally would never go below 3 Seismic Assault or effects of that nature. It isn't just a win condition. It is also an instant speed answer to creatures, or the final X amount of damage to the face of your opponent. It is certainly a durdly win condition, but it works great with our loam value engine.
As for the mana base, I would still never go twilight over graven cairns. Twilight is find and everything, but you rarely ever need GG in a turn. If you do, you should be able to get a forest and Gx shockland from your deck. Having Cairns means you can more easily facilitate retracing a Flame Jab or Raven's Crime more consistently as well as multiples in a turn. I could see 1 mire and 2 Cairns. But not 2 Mire. I am not sure why you have a basic Plains in the deck either. You likely never need to worry about hardcasting Lingering Souls that much, where you need to ensure that you have a white mana source through a Blood Moon. The decks that run Blood Moon usually run several sweepers. Tokens are terrible in those match ups. Usually. Many Blue Moon players run Staticaster in my experience and having a basic Plains out could be the difference between casting an Abrupt Decay or not. I would have a second Swamp or Forest in that slot.
I agree about Smallpox. In Legacy where decks only run 15-21 Lands it is far easier to cripple them, whereas in Modern most decks run between 19-23.
Thanks! The other major issue with Pox I find in that same vein in that without a fast clock people would generally just draw into lands eventually anyway while I looked for a Pyromancer or Assault.
This card was suggested to me when I wrote the primer; how does haunted Fengraf sound as a replacement for the plains? Basically whatever it gets back will be good whether it be a goyf or a pyromancer, gives a way to recur creatures where the deck couldn't before. The main issue is that I'm not sure it's better than running a 2nd GQ if I was going to run another colorless land or if I can even support another colorless land at all.
Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
I like the "idea" of haunted Fengraf but not the actual concept. If you want more creature threats, run more creature threats. I suggest vengeful pharoah if you want a good creature that recurs.
I've been thinking of just running 4 magmatic insight instead of 4 faithless looting. Thoughts? Maybe a 2-2 split? The card disadvantage on looting hurts a lot early game.
Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Personally I never feel like the card disadvantage on looting is all that bad. If I were on a Naya or GR build, I might care since I am limited with graveyard interaction other than Loam. But with a Jund build you have flame jab, raven's crime, lands and life from the loam to discard. Later in the game the card advantage on loam, plus flashback on looting make for a very consistent well oiled machine to gain card advantage and find some selection in the process. My personal take on it. There was a period where I ran 4 looting and 3 insight, then went down to 2 insight as I found at times that with only 3 land in hand you are screwed if you discard 1 and don't find loam or more lands. I eventually dropped insight overall since looting was all I ever found that I ever needed being essentially 8 spells in the deck including the flashback. Insight is still nice if I went back to it I would likely be on a 4/2 split on looting/insight.
Even in RG I find Looting to be too good to pass up. I don't think Insight should be used as a replacement. Turn 1 Looting to filter your hand while discarding a Loam is a great play that you would lose. With Insight you get into awkward early game situations at times unless you're running a LOT of lands, like 27-28.
That said, Insight is great as a secondary filtering spell for sure. I'm never clear on how it compares to Voice (depends on your curve, I imagine), but using 5 mana to Loam, Insight, dredge Loam and replay it is a pretty crazy line if you have Assault out.
Fair points on both ends, I'm only running 25 lands. That likely makes insights much worse.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Odds are against the land discard on Insight screwing you very unlikely. Especially since you're drawing 2. With my luck I had several games where my next 4 or 5 cards weren't land. Just my luck really. I run 25+ and find 3. I fun 18- and find 6
Just to clarify, I'm not saying you shouldn't use Insight, just that I wouldn't ditch Looting for it. The 4/2 split that mykat suggested could work well for you. The effect it gives at 1 mana is really strong. It's just that sometimes you'll miss being able to drop non-lands or have trouble casting it if you're running the full set.
Another reason I went away from insight was increasing the amount of "cantrips" make the deck more full of air. Now you have 4 looting, 4 insight and 4 loam that don't effect the board state. It gets awkward when you use these for advantage then draw into more. It starts looking like a blue tempo deck, but without the efficient creature backed by counter magic to close a game. That's why I got rid of insight. But I replaced it with dark confidant. I still get card advantage and if they kill it then I can follow up with young Pyromancer and start getting value.
Has anyone looked into an Ensnaring Bridge version? I was thinking of one along the following lines, which hunts for ensnaring bridge or loam+Molten Vortex. The deck can win by simply ensnaring bridge+molten vortex and top deck lands until it wins.
Not sure that I like Tarmogoyf in this build. You have enchantment, planeswalker, artifact, plus sorcery, instant, creatures and land. You can make a very big goyf already and it's not likely that it will really get to attack through your own bridge. I suppose if everything goes perfect then it's fine since you can build up your hand size. I would personally like to see neonate become lightning bolt. If you want to hide behind ensnaring bridge then worm harvest or syphon life can be a great way to further extend a lead. Syphon life would give you a better game 1 against burn. Molten vortex and flame jab are practically the same thing, I'm not sure you need both. I would love to see a couple of abrupt decay in here to deal with opposing Tarmogoyf which will likely be out of vortex range. It can also be an easy way to remove a bridge and get through a final punch with a goyf. Naturally you do have liliana to help clean up an opponents board at the same time you have a lot of mana hungry stuff in here where your 3 drops seem a bit cluttered with liliana and bridge
Not sure that I like Tarmogoyf in this build. You have enchantment, planeswalker, artifact, plus sorcery, instant, creatures and land. You can make a very big goyf already and it's not likely that it will really get to attack through your own bridge. I suppose if everything goes perfect then it's fine since you can build up your hand size. I would personally like to see neonate become lightning bolt. If you want to hide behind ensnaring bridge then worm harvest or syphon life can be a great way to further extend a lead. Syphon life would give you a better game 1 against burn. Molten vortex and flame jab are practically the same thing, I'm not sure you need both. I would love to see a couple of abrupt decay in here to deal with opposing Tarmogoyf which will likely be out of vortex range. It can also be an easy way to remove a bridge and get through a final punch with a goyf. Naturally you do have liliana to help clean up an opponents board at the same time you have a lot of mana hungry stuff in here where your 3 drops seem a bit cluttered with liliana and bridge
Agreed on most counts. I couldn't find a good replacement for Goyf, I might run the abrupt decays in its place.
Agreed on Flame Jab, it was in there for its synergy with Young Pyromancer, but I removed Young Pyromancer because I felt like I was making poor plays to activate it.
Worm Harvest definitely should be in here you can likely drop the 4th decay.
Grim Flayer could be an interesting replacement for goyf as well. His triggered ability could give you information on whether or not to dredge (if you're looking for bridge or vortex), or help fill the yard early and get your loams online.
Worm Harvest definitely should be in here you can likely drop the 4th decay.
Grim Flayer could be an interesting replacement for goyf as well. His triggered ability could give you information on whether or not to dredge (if you're looking for bridge or vortex), or help fill the yard early and get your loams online.
Worm Harvest is nice. I agree it should go in for one of the abrupt decays. Grim Flayer is a nice early game card, sadly it gets stuck if it gets delirium.
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Pauper: UB Wight Phantasm RB Burn UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Yeah. I think worm harvest is the right call. I was just suggesting Flayer because you said you weren't sure what else to out there. A maximum 4/4 is easier to get under a bridge, then empty your hand than a potential 6/7.
I've been underwhelmed with Flayer so far. My current build isn't optimized for him, but I too frequently only end up with sorceries and lands in my graveyard, since you're really incentivized to keep action spells in your hand. That Ensnaring Bridge build does look interesting though; it might be the missing piece against Bant Eldrazi, which has been a rather troublesome matchup for me.
Edit, this was suppose to be a reply to someone pay about the gitrog monster
4x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
Spells (16)
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Faithless Looting
2x Magmatic Insight
2x Tormenting Voice
4x Life from the Loam
Enchantment (10)
4x Molten Vortex
2x Seismic Assault
4x Blood Moon
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath
3x Stomping Ground
1x Rootbound Crag
1x Karplusan Forest
3x Raging Ravine
2x Treetop Village
2x Copperline Gorge
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Mountain
2x Forest
1x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Anger of the Gods
2x Guttural Response
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Destructive Revelry
1x Kitchen Finks
3x Sun Droplet
1x Defense Grid
I went 3-3, though with some better plays/luck, I think I could have gone 4-2, which would have been good enough to get into the top 8.
Jeskai Nahiri: 1-2
Game 1: Dropping Goyfs on turn 2 and 3 was too much. Short game.
Game 2: Brought in my control package of Thrun, Defense Grid, and 2x Guttural. This was a pretty long and messy game where I killed a couple of Nahiris, but he had Nihil Spellbombed out two of my Loams and Faithless Lootings, so we were topdecking until he found another Nahiri. Couldn't find Loam so she eventually ulted.
Game 3: I had a solid hand with my one-of Thrun and a couple of other threats. When I dropped Thrun on turn 4, he thought he had lost, but a clutch Timely Reinforcements got him back in the game and clogged up the board. I swear I dug in 20-25 cards deep without finding a Loam, but it was a tight game even with me throwing topdecked lands at his stuff. He exiled a bunch of Molten Vortexes and I ran out of gas.
Elves: 0-2
Game 1: I kept a shaky hand and got punished for it. Didn't have Molten/Seismic, but had 1-2 dig spells that unfortunately missed. He also had pretty much a great draw and went off pretty early.
Game 2: Brought in 3x Anger and 1x Ensnaring Bridge. Drew into both Angers as his board was developing, but he was able to Coco into an Ezuri and use Archdruid mana to save the key pieces from the first Anger. At least I got rid of Ezuri, which he told me was a 2-of. Next turn he topdecks the other Ezuri which let him swing in for lethal. Bad luck. This is usually a solid 2-0 for me. There's a guy at our FNMs who plays basically the same deck, and I've never lost. Sucks that my first loss to this deck had to be here.
Naya Burn: 2-1
Game 1: Goyfs took it away. Looking at the life pad, he went 20-17-13-9-0. I love playing against Goblin Guides when they just fuel Molten Vortex.
Game 2: Brought in Burn/Aggro package of 3x Sun Droplet and 1x Kitchen Finks. I only recently found out about Sun Droplet and I really recommend trying it out. At first reading, I thought it was kind of mediocre until I realized it happened on each upkeep. Anyway, this game I had trouble building up a board and he got what he needed.
Game 3: He had to mull down to 3, but oddly enough still put up a decent fight. Well timed Destructive Revelry for my Sun Droplet had me worried, as well as finding 2x Eidolons, but ultimately it was still a mull to 3.
RG Tron: 2-0
Game 1: I felt bad about this one as it was just brutal. I drew into a Loam lock with Ghost Quarter and started playing a war of attrition. He played a main deck Crucible of Worlds thinking he'd escaped it, but I dropped a Scooze right after that to make it completely useless. Pinged him to death 2 damage at a time with an unbuffed Scooze while keeping him on 3 lands.
Game 2: Brought in 2x Destructive Revelry. I dropped Blood Moon on turn 3 which he was clearly not happy about. I build up the board to Goyf, Scooze, Molten Vortex and he drops an O Stone thinking he's safe. I had been holding on to a Destructive Revelry since basically the beginning and blow up his O Stone, which when combining the 2 damage and the +1 to Goyf for instant finally being in the yard put him at exactly lethal. I honestly felt a bit bad at how one sided this match ended up going.
Merfolk: 0-2
Game 1: I don't even really know what went wrong here... I just couldn't find Loam when I needed it and he went off pretty quickly.
Game 2: Brought in 3x Anger. Had the board mostly under control, but it was a long and grindy game. He has lot of things that used up a lot of my land tosses like Kira, Great Glass Spinner. He managed to get his Vial up to 4 and brought out a Master of Waves on my endstep. On his following turn, he played a Phantasmal Image copying it. Couldn't do much about it. This is another match up that I'm usually comfortable with but just didn't turn out.
Grixis Control: 2-0
I'm calling this one Grixis Control even though it didn't actually have counterspells in it. It seemed basically like a Jund deck. Lots of kill spells, 4x Liliana of the Veil, and 4x Jace VP.
Game 1: Turn 3 Blood Moon basically locked him out of the game.
Game 2: Dropped an early Goyf and him Thought Scouring himself only made Goyf grow to a 5/6 insanely quickly. Only got to swing in once before it died, but after that I cleaned up with Molten Vortex.
Overall it was a lot of fun. I felt like I learned a bit for sure, but losing to matchups that should be on the easier side is a bit frustrating. I think this deck is definitely viable and I felt like top 8 was definitely within reach. It's such a good shell for Goyfs and main deck Blood Moons, and people really underestimate how devastating Molten Vortex can be. I think I should test Commune with the Gods a bit more. I think it could have dug further into the deck those times when I was struggling to find my Loams and might have been better than Tormenting Voice/Magmatic Insight.
Anyway, next PPTQ event is on August 27th so if I can make it I'll definitely be running this deck again!
2x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Copperline Gorge
1x Blood Crypt
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Godless Shrine
1x Graven Cairns
2x Twilight Mire
4x Marsh Flats
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Raging Ravine
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Faithless Looting
2x Flame Jab
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Life from the Loam
4x Lingering Souls
2x Raven's Crime
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Seismic Assault
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Young Pyromancer
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Bojuka Bog
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Guttural Response
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Ray of Revelation
So, I did a bit of rehauling of my 4c PyroPox Loam list. I've found a lot of problems with Smallpox. In a lot of cases outside the midgame it's downright worse than a bolt since it's a sacrifice effect. Even taking into account the discard as well I found that the cost of running Smallpox(running very few creatures and BB on turn 2) was very detrimental. In short: I durdled way too much. Lingering Souls is not a fast clock and pyromancer isn't either without a fair amount of support. Far too many games were lost because the opponent managed to cobble together the right combo of cards to kill me while I durdled looking for a Pyromancer or Seismic Assault to end the game.
I also went down to 25 lands because I very rarely find myself missing land drops/not having enough lands in the yard between Faithless Looting, dredging Loam, or even just through the large amount of fetches the deck runs. Even with cutting Smallpox I think I will have no issue getting lands into the bin. 25 lands is still quite a bit for a deck with as low curve as mine and still enough to feed the 4x Faithless Looting and Loam
-3 Smallpox Too many restrictions to use it. BB is awkward a lot of the time and skews the manabase a fair bit. Not running many creatures means that the only clocks I had were frequently combos in themselves. Pyromancer and Seismic Assault both require other pieces to be effective clocks. Lingering Souls is good for reasons other than being a clock. Raging Ravine is basically the only wincon in the deck that doesn't require other pieces to be decent and, well, winning with a creature land is just about the definition of durdle. Removal of Smallpox also allows me to run a wider range of sideboard cards such as Kitchen Finks which shores up aggro matches far better than Dragon's Claw. I remember cutting the 4th Smallpox a while back because the card is poor in multiplies if I don't have Loam backup. Well, I found that even in singles it tends to be poor without Loam backup. This deck is fairly mana-hungry in wanting to flashback those Faithless Looting and spam retrace spells after loaming and such. I love Smallpox dearly but it just hasn't worked out.
+4 Tarmogoyfs Here come the no-questions-asked clocks that I've been wanting. More creatures also makes my Commune With the Gods considerably better. This also makes any Pyroclasms/Angers in the board significantly better since I'll have a threat that survives through it(as opposed to young pyromancer or lingering souls) The deck still runs damn near half instants/sorceries so there's plenty of stuff to trigger Pyromancer.
-1 Seismic Assault I think this is much better as a backup wincon for when creatures don't quite get there. It's just way too durdly to rely on this as a wincon in modern. Between Faithless Looting and Commune With the Gods I found myself drawing the 2nd copy of this card way too often and being able to pitch it to Faithless Looting doesnt really make up for it. Again, also reduces the number of durdly wincons that require other pieces.
+1 Lightning Bolt: This makes 3. Hard to go wrong here. This may become a 3rd Abrupt Decay or maybe a Maelstrom Pulse/Terminate.
-1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth Less necessary with the removal of Smallpox. The need for triple or even quadruple black is much less now.
-2 Blackcleave Cliffs
+2 Copperline Gorge
-2 Graven Cairns
+2 Twilight Mire
Smallpox requiring BB on T2 has opened up my manabase a bit. Copperline Gorges are to accomodate the earlier need for green mana with the addition of Goyfs. Cutting 1 Seismic Assault also allows me to distribute my mana sources a bit more evenly so -2 graven cairns for 2 twilight mire. Twilight Mire enables Turn 2 Abrupt decay very nicely while also allowing double green later in the game to cast some combination of Loam/Goyf/Commune/Abrupt Decay in the same turn.
As usual, not that great at manabases. Open to suggestions.
A more pointed question, more and more I play this the more I feel the 4th Faithless Looting is unnecessary. I always find myself with way more faithless lootings than I'll ever really cast. I feel like the card is better for lists that rely more heavily on Loam. Do you all think there is any merit to cutting the 4th Faithless Looting for another Bolt or Inquisition? What else would be a good replacement? Maybe a 1-of Traverse? Maybe a Scavenging Ooze to improve the Dredge matchup. God, not playing smallpox really opens up my options. In testing Commune with the Gods has been very good since it almost always hits now AND mills lands, lingering souls, and retrace cards. Maybe a 3rd one of those?
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
I personally would never go below 3 Seismic Assault or effects of that nature. It isn't just a win condition. It is also an instant speed answer to creatures, or the final X amount of damage to the face of your opponent. It is certainly a durdly win condition, but it works great with our loam value engine.
As for the mana base, I would still never go twilight over graven cairns. Twilight is find and everything, but you rarely ever need GG in a turn. If you do, you should be able to get a forest and Gx shockland from your deck. Having Cairns means you can more easily facilitate retracing a Flame Jab or Raven's Crime more consistently as well as multiples in a turn. I could see 1 mire and 2 Cairns. But not 2 Mire. I am not sure why you have a basic Plains in the deck either. You likely never need to worry about hardcasting Lingering Souls that much, where you need to ensure that you have a white mana source through a Blood Moon. The decks that run Blood Moon usually run several sweepers. Tokens are terrible in those match ups. Usually. Many Blue Moon players run Staticaster in my experience and having a basic Plains out could be the difference between casting an Abrupt Decay or not. I would have a second Swamp or Forest in that slot.
I agree about Smallpox. In Legacy where decks only run 15-21 Lands it is far easier to cripple them, whereas in Modern most decks run between 19-23.
Thanks! The other major issue with Pox I find in that same vein in that without a fast clock people would generally just draw into lands eventually anyway while I looked for a Pyromancer or Assault.
This card was suggested to me when I wrote the primer; how does haunted Fengraf sound as a replacement for the plains? Basically whatever it gets back will be good whether it be a goyf or a pyromancer, gives a way to recur creatures where the deck couldn't before. The main issue is that I'm not sure it's better than running a 2nd GQ if I was going to run another colorless land or if I can even support another colorless land at all.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
That said, Insight is great as a secondary filtering spell for sure. I'm never clear on how it compares to Voice (depends on your curve, I imagine), but using 5 mana to Loam, Insight, dredge Loam and replay it is a pretty crazy line if you have Assault out.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Flame Jab
4 Faithless Looting
4 Life from the Loam
4 Raven's Crime
4 Molten Vortex
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Graven Cairns
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
Agreed on most counts. I couldn't find a good replacement for Goyf, I might run the abrupt decays in its place.
Agreed on Flame Jab, it was in there for its synergy with Young Pyromancer, but I removed Young Pyromancer because I felt like I was making poor plays to activate it.
Possible update:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Faithless Looting
4 Life from the Loam
4 Raven's Crime
4 Molten Vortex
2 Syphon Life
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Graven Cairns
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
Grim Flayer could be an interesting replacement for goyf as well. His triggered ability could give you information on whether or not to dredge (if you're looking for bridge or vortex), or help fill the yard early and get your loams online.
Worm Harvest is nice. I agree it should go in for one of the abrupt decays.
Grim Flayer is a nice early game card, sadly it gets stuck if it gets delirium.
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
Cubetutor Link