@ lvg, on average, what turn is traverse turned on and what turns are you casting it? Regarding Gitrog, I have come to the same conclusion. The synergy seems to be there but in the end it did not get the job done. I think something is there but I have not quite found it yet.
Thanks for the reply! I actually took the deck to modern night this week and had lots of fun.
I had some issues with merfolks though, not much we can do against Master of Waves. He dodges Abrupt Decay, has protection from Seismic Assault, Lightning Bolt and Terminate (not in your list but I had some around so I added them to my sideboard). I think that turning into a more midrange, creature based deck would be good against them.
I also played BW Eldrazi that was running main deck graveyard hate so that sucked
Gonna pick up some Kalitas and finish the sideboard and see how that goes!
The best way to handle master of waves is to make sure your opponent doesn't get ahead on board. If you let them make maybe 3 tokens maximum you are 1 loam and assault away from them having only a master. Should be cake from there. Remember if they run kira that is where you want abrupt decay to go since it can't be countered and immediately handles their protection creature.
What do you all think of Vessel of Nascency in this deck? One of the problems I've frequently found is actually drawing into seismic assault reliably and this seems to help with it. Not sure if it's really up there on power level though
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
With traverse the ulvenwald it might be the perfect way to turn on Delerium early. For those builds it seems great. Otherwise Commune with the Gods is likely just better.
Wanted to get back to this thread, after a long time away (phew, 3 weeks since last comment?). Have there been any recent developments for the more traditional Seismic Assault strategy?
Considering the whole Zombie Infestation/Call the Bloodline approach, I'm not a huge fan, but has it been working better than just going all-in with the Assault plan? Doesn't look particularly fast or solid, on first sight.
What's teh point of not running the full playset Hooting Mandrills?
It's your single-best Beater, voiding Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay - the most common removal in the Format.
With Looting it is your best-effort Tarmogoyf replacement!!!
A Turn 2 4/4 Beater is a serious threat some decks can't handle easily - so don't hesitate to exile even Lands if you absolutely in need of an early beater.
Why full playsets of Vortex and Assault? You seem to rely heavily on the Loam / Assault Engine, something that doesn't give you much drive early game. Try 3 Vortex + 2 Assault and add Commune with the Gods - a pseudo Tutor for everything relevant in your deck.
Eternal Witness is interesting, because you can grab stuff you incidentially dredged. Scavenging Ooze is a bit janky here. This decks needs Beaters, not late-game threats. Countryside Crusher --- i'm not a fan, to be honest. I like Knight of the Reliquary much more in this spot, even if you must splash W.
Your list runs 8 Beaters at all, that's too few for an Aggro Loam Deck. Try to go up to 12 - 14 to hit 2 - 3 in every match.
You got the necessity of adressing your worst Matchups at all - Combo. Being more aggressive, boarding the right hate. Your sideboard looks like you want to improve your best Matchups further but does nothing real good against Combo-strategies. Maybe run a single blood crypt and some slaughter Games in the side. Or something else to improve your worst Matchups.
Maybe a playset of Bloodghast is something to consider. It could be pitched to Faithless Looting, has synergies with Loam and is a recursive threat.
With traverse the ulvenwald it might be the perfect way to turn on Delerium early. For those builds it seems great. Otherwise Commune with the Gods is likely just better.
I´ve tried Commune. The major issue is that I´m afraid it´ll miss most of the time in my list. I only run 4x Young Pyromancer and 3x Seismic Assault for things it can hit.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
It digs 5 deep, assuming you have at least 4 in hand, plus 2 land in play, plus commune, plus possible spells or fetchlands in the yard you are likely looking at 10% of your deck. The odds of not hitting 1 of 4 young pyro or 1 of 3 assault doesn't seem likely. However, even if you miss you are likely putting lands, loam, retrace spells, etc into your yard for use later.
It digs 5 deep, assuming you have at least 4 in hand, plus 2 land in play, plus commune, plus possible spells or fetchlands in the yard you are likely looking at 10% of your deck. The odds of not hitting 1 of 4 young pyro or 1 of 3 assault doesn't seem likely. However, even if you miss you are likely putting lands, loam, retrace spells, etc into your yard for use later.
You make good points. I'll test it.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
I ran it and I did like it, but I was playing a rug treasure cruise variant. So filling the yard was ideal. Since then I have gone away from it. I prefer faithless looting and magmatic insight
This is my (mostly)creatureless list running notably Young Pyromancer, Smallpox, and, more recently, Commune with the Gods. It splashes blue to flashback Desperate Ravings(which is a big reason I don't run magmatic insight) Thoughts? I've been considering running a 2nd Flame Jab to go a bit harder on the Pyromancers.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
When I ran pyromancer, I left Liliana behind because she doesn't play well with pyromancer curving. I don't know that I like having commune, plus ravings, plus looting. seems like too much dig to me. I would either leave ravings or commune (likely commune) in place of abrupt decay for the additional removal and way to trigger a young pyromancer. Liliana could likely become 3rd raven's crime, 2nd flame jab and either 2nd inquisition/maelstrom pulse/worm harvest.
When I ran pyromancer, I left Liliana behind because she doesn't play well with pyromancer curving. I don't know that I like having commune, plus ravings, plus looting. seems like too much dig to me. I would either leave ravings or commune (likely commune) in place of abrupt decay for the additional removal and way to trigger a young pyromancer. Liliana could likely become 3rd raven's crime, 2nd flame jab and either 2nd inquisition/maelstrom pulse/worm harvest.
Thanks for the feedback. I'll mull over it.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
The list for the most part is based on the Yuuki Ichikawa list from a couple pages back, but with 4x Blood Moon substituted in for 4x Goyf. There was some discussion in here recently about Blood Moons, and I have to say they're just awesome to have in the main. It's just so relevant in the meta that having 4 of them in the main gets you free wins, or at worst buys time to get the engine going. They do shut off all my utility lands, but I honestly think that contributes to the shock factor of having a Blood Moon drop in game 1. It almost always hurts them more than it will you.
About specific cards: Tireless Tracker - I'm a fan of this one. It's generally pretty easy to get a couple of Clues off of it which allow for an end step dredge of Loam or just an extra card when you have free mana. Countryside Crusher - This is a controversial one from what I've seen, but I do think he's worth playing, just maybe not at 4x. If unanswered he can just win you the game or, at worst, stall the board while guaranteeing that you draw gas (which I actually view as his main ability). Huntmaster of the Fells - He's kind of my fun-of in the deck for flavor, but if you can drop him on turn 4 right after a Blood Moon, it's pretty much game over. And obviously he's just great value generally.
Sideboard: Pulse of Murasa + Kitchen Finks for Burn/Aggro to buy time, though I sometimes contemplate Dragon Claw, Feed the Clan, or even an off-color Leyline of Sanctity. Pyroclasm + Anger of the Gods for decks going wide. Defense Grid + Thrun, the Last Troll package for control. Gaea's Blessing for the one moron running a mill deck, though actually surprisingly relevant against graveyard decks when Scooze needs backup.
I've been pretty steadily going 3-1 at my LGS. Seismic tends to do great against creature based strategies like Affinity, Abzan Coco, Elves, etc. Having the Blood Moons really helps in matches that I find tricky like Jund, Tron, Jeskai Control, and combo decks like Ad Nauseam.
I find my toughest matchups to be Burn, Mono Green Stompy (of all things), Jund if they can discard my Blood Moons, and Control if they can counter enough key plays (having Tormenting Voice Remanded feels terrible). Wondering if anyone could offer some advice about those match ups. Also, I'm not sure about my mana base. It looks like a decent spread to me, but I do have issues getting RRR on turn 3-4 sometimes.
What do you all think it would take for Assault Loam to be a T1/2 deck? I think the cycle lands(forgotten cave, tranquil thicket etc) would be amazing if they entered the modern card pool.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
The cycle lands would possibly send it over the top. Honestly I think the deck just needs better tools like mox diamond, exploration, etc that make lands style decks in legacy so strong. A card like gamble would be great for it as well since many games we play we could have every piece but never find a loam to really get going.
Don't make me dream... cycle lands would be insane.
Realistically, I'd like to see something with a powerful activation effect for sacrificing a land. Maybe something along the lines of Sylvan Safekeeper. Something with "Sac a land: draw a card" would probably be too crazy, but a less crappy version of Aggressive Mining would be pretty sweet.
The cycle lands would possibly send it over the top. Honestly I think the deck just needs better tools like mox diamond, exploration, etc that make lands style decks in legacy so strong. A card like gamble would be great for it as well since many games we play we could have every piece but never find a loam to really get going.
Hold on now. Cycle lands would be amazing(and I could see them being printed in standard tbh, just need cycling to come back) but I don't think it would send the deck over the top Tier 2 at best
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
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Modern
RGB Grishoalbrand
U Merfolks
Legacy
U Merfolks
I had some issues with merfolks though, not much we can do against Master of Waves. He dodges Abrupt Decay, has protection from Seismic Assault, Lightning Bolt and Terminate (not in your list but I had some around so I added them to my sideboard). I think that turning into a more midrange, creature based deck would be good against them.
I also played BW Eldrazi that was running main deck graveyard hate so that sucked
Gonna pick up some Kalitas and finish the sideboard and see how that goes!
Modern
RGB Grishoalbrand
U Merfolks
Legacy
U Merfolks
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
What's teh point of not running the full playset Hooting Mandrills?
It's your single-best Beater, voiding Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay - the most common removal in the Format.
With Looting it is your best-effort Tarmogoyf replacement!!!
A Turn 2 4/4 Beater is a serious threat some decks can't handle easily - so don't hesitate to exile even Lands if you absolutely in need of an early beater.
if terminate or path to exile cares about your beater, you need another one - so run 4.
Why full playsets of Vortex and Assault? You seem to rely heavily on the Loam / Assault Engine, something that doesn't give you much drive early game. Try 3 Vortex + 2 Assault and add Commune with the Gods - a pseudo Tutor for everything relevant in your deck.
Eternal Witness is interesting, because you can grab stuff you incidentially dredged. Scavenging Ooze is a bit janky here. This decks needs Beaters, not late-game threats. Countryside Crusher --- i'm not a fan, to be honest. I like Knight of the Reliquary much more in this spot, even if you must splash W.
Your list runs 8 Beaters at all, that's too few for an Aggro Loam Deck. Try to go up to 12 - 14 to hit 2 - 3 in every match.
You got the necessity of adressing your worst Matchups at all - Combo. Being more aggressive, boarding the right hate. Your sideboard looks like you want to improve your best Matchups further but does nothing real good against Combo-strategies. Maybe run a single blood crypt and some slaughter Games in the side. Or something else to improve your worst Matchups.
Maybe a playset of Bloodghast is something to consider. It could be pitched to Faithless Looting, has synergies with Loam and is a recursive threat.
Hope i could help a bit here.
Green @ it's best
I´ve tried Commune. The major issue is that I´m afraid it´ll miss most of the time in my list. I only run 4x Young Pyromancer and 3x Seismic Assault for things it can hit.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
You make good points. I'll test it.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
4x Young Pyromancer
4 Creatures
Spells
4x Life From the Loam
2x Raven's Crime
1x Flame Jab
3x Seismic Assault
2x Lightning Bolt
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Smallpox
4x Faithless Looting
3x Desperate Ravings
3x Commune with the Gods
3x Liliana of the Veil
29 Spells
Lands
3x Scalding Tarn
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Steam Vents
1x Watery Grave
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Lavaclaw Reaches
4x Graven Cairns
1x Blood Crypt
2x Stomping Ground
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
1x Forest
27 Lands
2x Guttural Response
3x Dragon's Claw
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Golgari Charm
2x Pyroclasm
2x Witchbane Orb
This is my (mostly)creatureless list running notably Young Pyromancer, Smallpox, and, more recently, Commune with the Gods. It splashes blue to flashback Desperate Ravings(which is a big reason I don't run magmatic insight) Thoughts? I've been considering running a 2nd Flame Jab to go a bit harder on the Pyromancers.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Thanks for the feedback. I'll mull over it.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
4x Scavenging Ooze
2x Tireless Tracker
3x Countryside Crusher
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
Spells (12)
3x Magmatic Insight
4x Tormenting Voice
4x Life from the Loam
1x Beast Within
Enchantment (12)
4x Molten Vortex
4x Seismic Assault
4x Blood Moon
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath
2x Arid Mesa
2x Stomping Ground
2x Rootbound Crag
1x Karplusan Forest
3x Raging Ravine
2x Treetop Village
1x Kessig Wolf Run
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Mountain
2x Forest
1x Pyroclasm
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Defense Grid
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Pulse of Murasa
1x Kitchen Finks
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Beast Within
1x Gaea's Blessing
The list for the most part is based on the Yuuki Ichikawa list from a couple pages back, but with 4x Blood Moon substituted in for 4x Goyf. There was some discussion in here recently about Blood Moons, and I have to say they're just awesome to have in the main. It's just so relevant in the meta that having 4 of them in the main gets you free wins, or at worst buys time to get the engine going. They do shut off all my utility lands, but I honestly think that contributes to the shock factor of having a Blood Moon drop in game 1. It almost always hurts them more than it will you.
About specific cards:
Tireless Tracker - I'm a fan of this one. It's generally pretty easy to get a couple of Clues off of it which allow for an end step dredge of Loam or just an extra card when you have free mana.
Countryside Crusher - This is a controversial one from what I've seen, but I do think he's worth playing, just maybe not at 4x. If unanswered he can just win you the game or, at worst, stall the board while guaranteeing that you draw gas (which I actually view as his main ability).
Huntmaster of the Fells - He's kind of my fun-of in the deck for flavor, but if you can drop him on turn 4 right after a Blood Moon, it's pretty much game over. And obviously he's just great value generally.
Sideboard:
Pulse of Murasa + Kitchen Finks for Burn/Aggro to buy time, though I sometimes contemplate Dragon Claw, Feed the Clan, or even an off-color Leyline of Sanctity.
Pyroclasm + Anger of the Gods for decks going wide.
Defense Grid + Thrun, the Last Troll package for control.
Gaea's Blessing for the one moron running a mill deck, though actually surprisingly relevant against graveyard decks when Scooze needs backup.
I've been pretty steadily going 3-1 at my LGS. Seismic tends to do great against creature based strategies like Affinity, Abzan Coco, Elves, etc. Having the Blood Moons really helps in matches that I find tricky like Jund, Tron, Jeskai Control, and combo decks like Ad Nauseam.
I find my toughest matchups to be Burn, Mono Green Stompy (of all things), Jund if they can discard my Blood Moons, and Control if they can counter enough key plays (having Tormenting Voice Remanded feels terrible). Wondering if anyone could offer some advice about those match ups. Also, I'm not sure about my mana base. It looks like a decent spread to me, but I do have issues getting RRR on turn 3-4 sometimes.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
Realistically, I'd like to see something with a powerful activation effect for sacrificing a land. Maybe something along the lines of Sylvan Safekeeper. Something with "Sac a land: draw a card" would probably be too crazy, but a less crappy version of Aggressive Mining would be pretty sweet.
Hold on now. Cycle lands would be amazing(and I could see them being printed in standard tbh, just need cycling to come back) but I don't think it would send the deck over the top Tier 2 at best
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.