So I really like lsv's version of the deck and lftl is definitely one of my favorite cards, I really want to put this deck together but dont have any goyfs. Goyf is goyf and isn't something that can be replaced for something as good but if played it w/o goyfs what could I substitute as just another good card instead. Maybe burning vengeance?
Ive been following this thread for awhile, and the banning of Bloodbraid Elf hurts our Naya Loam pretty badly. It wasnt just Jund that was damaged by the banning. =/
So I really like lsv's version of the deck and lftl is definitely one of my favorite cards, I really want to put this deck together but dont have any goyfs. Goyf is goyf and isn't something that can be replaced for something as good but if played it w/o goyfs what could I substitute as just another good card instead. Maybe burning vengeance?
I don't think there is any real replacement for Goyf in this deck. He just does everything you need him to and loves you filling your graveyard with all sorts of different cards. He is needed for playing early defense and then late aggression. The first thing coming to mind is Spellskite but that's not exactly a great filler.
LSV's list is pretty dated at this point. Deathrite Shaman more or less nullifies cards like Raven's Crime and Flame Jab. I guess I'd be more alright with keeping Raven's Crime in but it isn't nearly as reliable as a grindy card as it used to be. On the flip side of that, you get Deathrite Shaman in your own deck. As well as Abrupt Decay.
I haven't been working with any list other than my RUG list but any list needs to be updated for the current meta. Which is about to change a bit come the next few tournaments. I could probably help get the ball rolling on other styles of our decks and offer some insight on cards I've tested but I don't really have a ton of playtest experience with Jund or Naya lists.
@Skybleed: Losing Bloodbraid Elf as a deck building option does hurt but this deck is fully capable of winning without it. Discussion about that should be kept to the appropriate thread though. So lets just focus on the tools we have available to us going forward.
So as I'm looking for a strong deck for the upcoming PTQ I'm pondering between the Jund and the RUG version (I haven't played either yet):
What black offers (estimation of played numbers in brackets):
- Discard (~6; Raven's Crime, Thoughtseize, IoK)
- Liliana (3-4)
- Deathrite Shaman (4)
- Dark Confidant (4)
- Abrupt Decay (3?)
What blue offers:
- Counterspells (~6-7?; Spell Pierce, Deprive, Izzet Charm)
- Jace (2-3?)
- Snapcaster Mage (3-4)
- Cantrips (3-4; Thought Scour)
That are around 15-20 cards for either U or B if you keep the G and R part roughly the same. Has anybody experience with both versions and could share the strengths and weaknesses of either?
Personally the black version looks more powerful and also faster with Confidant, Lilly and DRS. However, blue seems more resilient and flexible.
I think that either deck is fine. I prefer Blue over Black just for the ability to say no to combo decks as well as being able to grind out aggro and mid-range decks. Black has the ability to strip combo's hand while also grinding out the aggro and mid-range decks. I would just rather top deck a counter spell late game rather than a discard spell.
Bob and Liliana are definitely strong cards. As is Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. We haven't had anyone here working on the Jund list for awhile. I could assume numbers on cards based on my own experiences with RUG though.
I've played with the numbers several times in RUG and the way I have it set up seems spot on, but that may just be my play style. 3 Jace was too many and I found myself stuck with one in hand, so I dropped to 2 and it has been really spicy at that number. Izzet Charm provides a lot of versatility and lets the deck run 8 counter spells with 11 burn spells (outside of Seismic Assault). Plus, 6 instant speed draw spells is helpful in dodging graveyard hate.
I run Volcanic Fallout and Magma Spray to help fight Deathrite Shamans and general weenie decks/Geist of St. Traft. Both of which have been awesome for me but Liliana picks up a lot of that slack and is better against the new Bogle deck than blue.
Personally I like the RUG version better but I can see the merits in both. I can help theory craft a Jund list with people but I have much more experience with the RUG variant. Either way, I think this style of deck is really strong and can be tuned to deal with just about any threat.
Ah right. I had to take off halfway through writing that post. I knew something was missing but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Faithless Looting should definitely be in the deck. I cut looting for izzet charm in my list though, it gives me more options. And to be honest, I don't know how great that effect is. I hardly ever use that mode on izzet charm and when I have, I find myself not really wanting to pitch more than one card. I understand why it is good and how you recoup the value lost through life from the loam. It just hasn't been fantastic for me recently. If it wasn't for izzet charm, I probably would have just swapped it out for another cantrip.
Bolt is an auto four-of in any red deck for me. It is just too efficient and versatile not to use in my opinion. Why wouldn't you want it in your deck?
As I see it bolt just gets a lot more valuable with Snapcaster Mage and the lack of other removal in RUG.
With black you have much more options for removal so you care more about getting the combo together where looting plays exactly that role. With blue you have plenty of card draw (Izzet Charm, Thought Scour, Jace) but less removal so playing bolt is pretty much your best bet to survive the early game.
On another note, what about Forked Bolt? Seems pretty saucy with snappy and against various mana dorks. It deals also with shaman with less effort in contrast to Flame Jab (or better: also deals with it on the draw). I'm going to test this deck a bit this weekend, pretty curious how it'll work out ^.^
I fail to see how my deck has less removal than Jund lists. If you could clarify for me, I'd appreciate it. How I see it, Black has more versatile removal but card for card, I'm running more removal slots. Jund opens you up to Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Terminate, edict effects (eg. Geth's Verdict), Doom Blade/Go for the Throat, etc. It depends on what your meta is and what kind of removal best suits that scenario.
Both decks are just stalling until you can hit the combo. Bob and looting get you there in Jund, card draw spells and Izzet Charm for RUG. So you use discard/removal to assist you in stalling in Jund and counters/removal in RUG to assist. So I don't see how Bolt is terrible in either deck. It gets you early spot removal and also helps translate mana into direct damage late game. It does what the deck wants to be doing. RUG having snapcaster gives those milled spells extra value, so it probably has more of a place in there than Jund but it still seems like a really solid inclusion to me. Even the aggro variants could make use of it despite focusing on those early turns for developing board position. Mid to late game it helps clear paths and finish off creatures as well as opponents.
The main knock I had against Forked Bolt was the sorcery speed. I was looking to replace Flame Jab and I was torn between Magma Spray and Forked Bolt. In the end, instant speed let me get more utility with snapcaster. Losing out on rare 2-for-1s in a handful of matchups didn't seem worth the more reliable versatility of Magma Spray. That said, I do really like Forked Bolt. You'd have to really look at your deck and what it needs to be doing when it comes to making that choice.
I hope testing goes well for you. Be sure to let us know how that goes for you.
I'm finding that the RUG list is a good turn or two slower to assemble the combo most games. While both lists are very, very weak to Abrupt Decay, the Jund list can disrupt the opponents hand enough where a midgame Assault is likely to stick.
The counter suite of RUG is pretty good against midrange and control decks (which don't really exist in the format in any notable way). It's about two turns too slow against the aggressive red decks. I could never stabilize. The matchup against Zoo/bant is salvageable only with sweepers. I think we need Volcanic Fallout in the maindeck.. but where? And at what cost?
I have liked Thought Scour and (sometimes) Izzet Charm, but they both severely lack the digging power of Faithless Looting. One major factor is that Looting is still valuable when milled. Charm being EOT has won me some games but it feels.. clunky.
Running Deathrite without black mana has been wasteful. Turn 2 Jace is neat, but I'm rarely comfortable dropping a turn 2 Assault without a grip full of lands. Neither play is nearly as strong as a turn 2 Lili.
Killing big Goyfs is a problem for the deck, that goes without saying. Not having Abrupt Decay sucks.. but up until recently the Jund list didn't have it either so maybe we're a bit pampered.
As much as I like the deck and want it to be legit, I feel like there are too many missing pieces.. However a splash of blue for Snapcaster and some utility may be useful moving forward.
The changes in the main were +1 goyf +1 spell pierce +2 pyroclasm -2 Magma Spray -2 Volcanic Fallout and tectonic edge -> 3rd ghost quarter.
The deck packs enough spot removal to deal with early creatures (4 bolts + 3 charms + snapcaster for redundance), especially with the pyroclasm. As soon as Assault gets online the removal becomes mostly unnecessary anyway, because of that I cut the Magma Spray's.
Pyroclasm went in instead of Fallout because i) it didn't hurt myself and ii) it was cheaper, both was relevant. It's not like we are fighting fairies anyway, the uncounterable clause never made any difference.
4th goyf got added because I always wanted one: he holds the ground and makes pressure, perfect fit.
Tec edge always felt miserable, if I wanted to kill lands I wanted them killed immediately, especially against tron when they can assemble their land combo without even needing a forth land.
Overall, the deck felt good, even very good. It is certainly powerful and has answers to almost anything thanks to the counterspells. Deprive is such a house in this deck, and also the other parts have a lot of synergy. It is, however, definitively no autopilot and needs to be operated with a lot of foresight. Almost all match ups I played felt beatable, only burn seemed really bad.
I think I will stay on this for while and get more games through to get a better picture. If anybody has recommendations for sb regarding the burn match up I'd be happy.
After playing with a Jund Loam-Pox Build, here's what I've found:
1. Deathrite Shaman is very, very good. Turning a discarded colorless land into a means of casting Seismic Assault is something I've found myself doing frequently, in addition to gaining life against aggro and even helping you win against control. I'm going to cut my Grim Lavamancers for them; aggro is pretty weak right now, and they're significantly worse now that they can't hit Bloodbraid Elf.
2. Flame Jab still has its uses as backup board control. It may be weak to opposing Shamans, but it remains a useful enough tool to include as a one-of in the maindeck.
3. The Smallpox package is quite a weapon. Being able to hit a Geist from the maindeck and wreck a stretched manabase is powerful option to have at your disposal, and Lingering Souls Jund seems to be declining in popularity. It's an interesting counterpoint to Liliana.
4. Crucible of Worlds isn't good, even as a sideboard option. Very rare is the case when you've got at least three lands and want them on the battlefield rather than in your hand.
5. Treasured Find has been better for me than Eternal Witness. The 2 mana, less green-intensive casting cost has proven significantly more relevant than the weak body in this deck.
@Synzig - I know what you mean about wanting the deck to be legitimate. I'm probably straddling the boundary between forcing the deck and making a good meta-game call. I feel like the deck is right there though and I'd like to keep working on it to get it there.
On the topic of Faithless Looting, I agree that it is a really strong effect for the deck and is effective at crafting a good hand. I just kept finding myself wanting to use the first turn for something other than Looting and then later in the game it just led to making decisions about cards to pitch and then getting burned by cards off the top of the deck.
For example, I ran into several occasions where I pitched lands with Loam in my hand, but I'd end up wasting a turn casting Loam, to get back the lands to hit my land drops to cast Loam. While Looting itself is fairly elegant, it lead to awkward turns down the way. So, I prefer the Izzet Charm, despite itself being a bit awkward, because it can give the Looting effect when it is 100% beneficial but also serve other rolls when looting doesn't make as much sense.
The changes in the main were +1 goyf +1 spell pierce +2 pyroclasm -2 Magma Spray -2 Volcanic Fallout and tectonic edge -> 3rd ghost quarter.
The deck packs enough spot removal to deal with early creatures (4 bolts + 3 charms + snapcaster for redundance), especially with the pyroclasm. As soon as Assault gets online the removal becomes mostly unnecessary anyway, because of that I cut the Magma Spray's.
Pyroclasm went in instead of Fallout because i) it didn't hurt myself and ii) it was cheaper, both was relevant. It's not like we are fighting fairies anyway, the uncounterable clause never made any difference.
4th goyf got added because I always wanted one: he holds the ground and makes pressure, perfect fit.
Tec edge always felt miserable, if I wanted to kill lands I wanted them killed immediately, especially against tron when they can assemble their land combo without even needing a forth land.
Overall, the deck felt good, even very good. It is certainly powerful and has answers to almost anything thanks to the counterspells. Deprive is such a house in this deck, and also the other parts have a lot of synergy. It is, however, definitively no autopilot and needs to be operated with a lot of foresight. Almost all match ups I played felt beatable, only burn seemed really bad.
I think I will stay on this for while and get more games through to get a better picture. If anybody has recommendations for sb regarding the burn match up I'd be happy.
I'm glad the deck worked well for you. I can see why you made those changes. Goyf and Spell Pierce are good cards. I've been running Fallout over Pyroclasm mainly for the WUR Tempo style decks. There are so few ways to deal with Geist of St. Traft and having one that couldn't be countered seemed like the best decision. I'll have to test with Pyroclasm to get a feel for it. I only ran into the mana cost being an issue once. I need to flash it back with Snapcaster but didn't have the 5th land to get there.
The Tec Edge was pretty bad. I was testing it under the advice of another forum member but I concur that it was never really what I wanted to be seeing. I have since switched back to 3 MB Ghost Quarter. I thought I had mentioned that somewhere but I could have easily forgotten.
It's weird that you guys are mentioning burn as a bad match up. I've played against it a decent amount and it hasn't really struck me as a difficult match. If you get the combo online, they can't really beat you. Especially with counter spells to back you up. They have to have an obscene hand or you need to draw particularly awkward for it to fall largely in their favor. It isn't an easy match up by any means but it shouldn't be impossible to get a handle on. Spellskites out of the board have been the only real tech I bring in against them, taking out Fallouts for them. With the recent bannings, I'm sure the sideboard will need to change. Once a more defined meta fleshes out, it will be easier to know how to change things up. I'm guessing Mindbreak Trap won't be all that necessary any more.
My two major concerns with your list are the inclusion of Grim Lavamancer and Worm Harvest.
Most Loam players stopped running Harvest a long time ago. In a field of Pod, Combo and Tron a bunch of little 1/1s aren't getting you there fast enough. Also, this deck really wants to function on 3, sometimes 4 lands. Tapping out on five means you're not activating Loam, you're not activating DRS, you're not looting for more Loam triggers.. and the downside of sometimes taking 5 from Bob equals one unplayable card. Who is it good against?
As for Lavamancer, it might be a matter of taste.. but between DRS and Loam, I don't know how often he might be relevant. I really -really- like the card, but aside from the line of:
T1: Fetch, crack, Lavamancer
T2: Fetch, crack, kill your bird.
After that.. I don't see it. I'd take take DRS over it every day.
There are quite a few things I notice right off the bat with your deck BluishGreen, mainly that you run 28 lands. From my experience, the deck runs well on 25 but 26 is about the maximum I'd really recommend running.
I don't know if the White in the deck does much for you. Lingering Souls and Knight of the Reliquary are solid cards but I don't know if they really provide much for the deck. With going 4 colors like you are, I'd highly recommend Deathrite Shaman as a way to mana fix for you. I can only imagine that hitting RRR on turn 3 is near impossible for you. Let alone your other mana requirements.
I'm also concerned about how many 3-drops you have in the deck. Bob is going to be hitting you for a lot of damage very often. On top of that, your hands are probably going to be fairly clogged with 3 mana cards. Which will leave you very vulnerable to counter magic and general tempo cards. It is important to make sure your curve is good. I'd recommend trying to get Faithless Looting, Deathrite Shaman and possibly Lightning Bolt into the deck. 8 Discard spells seems a little excessive, I'd cut down to 4-6.
You might also want to consider Lightning Greaves with Knight of the Reliquary. It would allow you to get instant utility out of her. Plus, it works well at protecting your other creatures as well. You should really look to get Tarmogoyf in the deck as well. It is a pretty important card for the deck.
I played at FNM last night to a rousing 2-2 finish. I was plagued by some of the most awkward draws I have ever seen the deck give. Often times ending up with three of the same card in my hand or having to dig through more than half my deck and still fail to find one half of the combo. However, the games that I won, the deck performed very well. I wish I knew how the meta was shaping up so I could prepare a better sideboard. I'll post the deck list I ran, some changes I'd make to it, and then report on the tournament.
I changed 2 Hurkyl's Recalls to 2 Ancient Grudge, and Magma Spray should be the 4th Goyf. I just haven't gotten my 4th in the mail yet. Anyways, tournament report:
Round 1: Bye
One of the people didn't show up in the pairings, so I played against him after he got his round win. He was playing RG Tron. I kept a hand with 1 Island and two Thought Scour with a Goyf and a Life from the Loam. We only got 1 round in and I did a decent job of holding him off of anything big but I didn't see a single Ghost Quarter or Seismic Assault until he was already tutoring up Eldrazi.
I resolved Assault but he followed up with Karn to exile it and tutored for Ulamog. I pulled a GQ and stuck Ulamog in his hand but he dropped a Wurmcoil. I was sitting with 3 Bolts in hand and Jace in play. I couldn't find a way to do the remaining 14 damage before Wurmcoil connected. I scooped to him but I felt like if I had draw a bit better I could have easily locked him out at a couple points along the way.
Score: 1-0
Round 2: 4 color humans
This was an interesting deck. It involved Champion of the Parish and several of the power 2cmc humans. Bob, Snapcaster, Meddling Mage and a couple others.
Game 1 he had three Cavern of Souls and I was sitting on two Spell Pierce and Deprive. I bolted an early Champion, Snapcaster+bolted his Dark Confidant. Then we traded Snapcaster attacks for awhile. I eventually hit Assault and grinded out a victory.
Game 2 he led with Champion again, he followed with Auriok Champion which I couldn't really do anything about for awhile. I stuck a Tarmogoyf as a 5/6 and started beating into him. I had Assault but no Loam, so I was only picking off problem creatures like Bob and Deathrite. Eventually he had to block the beats and when I went for the final blow he tried to path but I had Deprive.
This was an odd deck. It was reminiscent of Jund but with blue for Mana Leak, Remand, and Geist of St. Traft and ran some Path to Exile.
Game 1 was a lot of attrition. Bolting his Deathrite Shamans, counter wars, he played Liliana, I played Jace. I was digging for Assault and he couldn't wear out my hand since I had Loam going. I eventually hit Assault and pushed it through a Mana Leak and pitched a land to keep Liliana from Ult'ing. Next turn he scooped to me getting to resolve Loam 3 times.
Game 2 We spent the first few turns cracking fetches and sitting on counter magic, waiting for the other to move first. At 5 mana, I tried to resolve an Assault. He had Mana Leak, I Deprived it and he Remanded the Assault. I passed, he Thoughtseized the Assault, then Surgically Extracted it. I then sat there trying to hold off a Geist of St. Traft, eventually hit Goyf which stopped Geist but he got a Celestial Collonade which connected once before I drew a Ghostquarter. We sat there for awhile, drawing nothing but lands. He eventually attacked in with Geist, dropping me to 2 from the Angel, then shows me bolt and I couldn't counter it.
Game 3 I Thought Scoured, into Bolt + Thought Scour and dropped a Goyf with Spell Pierce back up and kept some steady pressure on him, forcing him to bolt himself off of fetches to keep up. Eventually he resolved Liliana and forced me to sac Goyf. I bolted her at the end of turn. I only had 2 red sources, 2 Island, and a Ghost Quarter with Forest in hand. I floated a Blue, Ghost Quartered an Island for a Mountain. Tapped for 3 red and cast Assault. He had Mana Leak and I sat there looking at the Forest in my hand and 1 short of paying for the Leak. Haven't stopped kicking myself about that. I had nothing left afterwards and he resolved a Geist. I lost after drawing 2 more lands with Loam in hand. I should have won this game, just punted it pretty hard on that Mana Leak.
This deck was really cool. It is similar to an idea that's been rattling around in my mind. It is a whole bunch of awesome 2 mana instants and uses Scepter to reuse them repeatedly for value.
Game 1 I thought he was on the UWR tempo plan, so I felt pretty safe until he tried to resolve Scepter on turn 4. We fought about it a bit and I won kind of. He Remanded the Scepter back to his hand. I cast Assault on the following turn with Loam in hand. He stuck the Scepter with Lightning Helix on it. Which from experience, I knew I straight lose to. Sure enough, after doing 3 damage a turn to each other, he countered my Loam one turn and put himself ahead.
Game 2 I sided in 6 hate cards. My opening seven had 3 of them but no lands. After a mull to six, my hand was decent two Islands, some counters, Thought Scour and a Goyf. I countered a Scepter and stuck Goyf as a 4/5. He pathed it right away. We sat there for awhile. He eventually got a Scepter with Remand on it. I was able to keep him from using it by Spell Piercing a second one when he was on 4 mana. But that one hit with Helix on it. I resolved Assault on my free turn but I was sitting on two more in hand as he Helixed me to death. Looked at my top 3 after I died to see the fourth Assault and lands.
Sorry about the wall o' text. Just wanted to be thorough. I felt like the matches I lost, I had a decent shot at. I just drew poorly. I want to replace the Mindbreak Traps but I'm not sure what for. I was thinking about just bumping up numbers of other cards. I guess I could go for some more hate against Tron. Maybe Sowing Salts. Not sure. Any advice or thoughts are more than welcome.
I'd hate to sound like a broken record but I'm not sold on leaving out Faithless Looting. Aside from sculpting your hand very well, it also serves the purpose of allowing you to cast loam twice more reasonably in a turn than Izzet Charm.
The more I've played with deprive the less I've liked it in matchups that aren't Tron, and even then it's usually not enough to stop them. To that end, perhaps it should be in the side? It's such an awkward card sometimes.
Regarding the Tron matchup, I really don't think it's salvageable. If they "go off" and assemble in the first five turns or so there's nothing we can do without drawing magically into Ghost Quarter every game. Such a crap shoot. Sowing Salt seems a turn too slow. They have imminence and pressure that we lack.. Could LD be the answer? Boom/Bust and Stone Rain? It will slow our kill down but if we stop them from casting Karns, Mindslaver locks and Eldrazi early we should be able to grind them out if it goes long.
I think we need to invest heavily in beating them.. as it's the only strategy that really goes over the top on us. The Twin decks (POD or standard) are all easy enough to beat by playing carefully.. Tron just dunks on us.
EDIT: It's worth noting that Scapeshift is starting to gather some steam.. so the LD package might serve double duty in the coming months.
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I don't think there is any real replacement for Goyf in this deck. He just does everything you need him to and loves you filling your graveyard with all sorts of different cards. He is needed for playing early defense and then late aggression. The first thing coming to mind is Spellskite but that's not exactly a great filler.
LSV's list is pretty dated at this point. Deathrite Shaman more or less nullifies cards like Raven's Crime and Flame Jab. I guess I'd be more alright with keeping Raven's Crime in but it isn't nearly as reliable as a grindy card as it used to be. On the flip side of that, you get Deathrite Shaman in your own deck. As well as Abrupt Decay.
I haven't been working with any list other than my RUG list but any list needs to be updated for the current meta. Which is about to change a bit come the next few tournaments. I could probably help get the ball rolling on other styles of our decks and offer some insight on cards I've tested but I don't really have a ton of playtest experience with Jund or Naya lists.
@Skybleed: Losing Bloodbraid Elf as a deck building option does hurt but this deck is fully capable of winning without it. Discussion about that should be kept to the appropriate thread though. So lets just focus on the tools we have available to us going forward.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Loam%20Vengeance&format=Modern
So as I'm looking for a strong deck for the upcoming PTQ I'm pondering between the Jund and the RUG version (I haven't played either yet):
What black offers (estimation of played numbers in brackets):
- Discard (~6; Raven's Crime, Thoughtseize, IoK)
- Liliana (3-4)
- Deathrite Shaman (4)
- Dark Confidant (4)
- Abrupt Decay (3?)
What blue offers:
- Counterspells (~6-7?; Spell Pierce, Deprive, Izzet Charm)
- Jace (2-3?)
- Snapcaster Mage (3-4)
- Cantrips (3-4; Thought Scour)
That are around 15-20 cards for either U or B if you keep the G and R part roughly the same. Has anybody experience with both versions and could share the strengths and weaknesses of either?
Personally the black version looks more powerful and also faster with Confidant, Lilly and DRS. However, blue seems more resilient and flexible.
Thoughts?
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/654861-lyzolda-blood-fiend
Bob and Liliana are definitely strong cards. As is Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. We haven't had anyone here working on the Jund list for awhile. I could assume numbers on cards based on my own experiences with RUG though.
The core cards for the deck are always going to be:
3-4 Tarmogoyf
3-4 Seismic Assault
4 Life from the Loam
4 Lightning Bolt
0-3 Flame Jab (I've recently cut these because of Deathrite Shaman but it is still an awesome card in this deck)
25-26 Lands
Black support would be something like this:
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2-3 Abrupt Decay
0-1 Maelstrom Pulse
2-3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2-3 Raven's Crime
Blue support is more or less like this:
3-4 Thought Scour
2 Jace Beleren
3-4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Deprive
2 Spell Pierce
3 Izzet Charm
I've played with the numbers several times in RUG and the way I have it set up seems spot on, but that may just be my play style. 3 Jace was too many and I found myself stuck with one in hand, so I dropped to 2 and it has been really spicy at that number. Izzet Charm provides a lot of versatility and lets the deck run 8 counter spells with 11 burn spells (outside of Seismic Assault). Plus, 6 instant speed draw spells is helpful in dodging graveyard hate.
I run Volcanic Fallout and Magma Spray to help fight Deathrite Shamans and general weenie decks/Geist of St. Traft. Both of which have been awesome for me but Liliana picks up a lot of that slack and is better against the new Bogle deck than blue.
Personally I like the RUG version better but I can see the merits in both. I can help theory craft a Jund list with people but I have much more experience with the RUG variant. Either way, I think this style of deck is really strong and can be tuned to deal with just about any threat.
Bolt is an auto four-of in any red deck for me. It is just too efficient and versatile not to use in my opinion. Why wouldn't you want it in your deck?
With black you have much more options for removal so you care more about getting the combo together where looting plays exactly that role. With blue you have plenty of card draw (Izzet Charm, Thought Scour, Jace) but less removal so playing bolt is pretty much your best bet to survive the early game.
On another note, what about Forked Bolt? Seems pretty saucy with snappy and against various mana dorks. It deals also with shaman with less effort in contrast to Flame Jab (or better: also deals with it on the draw). I'm going to test this deck a bit this weekend, pretty curious how it'll work out ^.^
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/654861-lyzolda-blood-fiend
Both decks are just stalling until you can hit the combo. Bob and looting get you there in Jund, card draw spells and Izzet Charm for RUG. So you use discard/removal to assist you in stalling in Jund and counters/removal in RUG to assist. So I don't see how Bolt is terrible in either deck. It gets you early spot removal and also helps translate mana into direct damage late game. It does what the deck wants to be doing. RUG having snapcaster gives those milled spells extra value, so it probably has more of a place in there than Jund but it still seems like a really solid inclusion to me. Even the aggro variants could make use of it despite focusing on those early turns for developing board position. Mid to late game it helps clear paths and finish off creatures as well as opponents.
The main knock I had against Forked Bolt was the sorcery speed. I was looking to replace Flame Jab and I was torn between Magma Spray and Forked Bolt. In the end, instant speed let me get more utility with snapcaster. Losing out on rare 2-for-1s in a handful of matchups didn't seem worth the more reliable versatility of Magma Spray. That said, I do really like Forked Bolt. You'd have to really look at your deck and what it needs to be doing when it comes to making that choice.
I hope testing goes well for you. Be sure to let us know how that goes for you.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/654861-lyzolda-blood-fiend
The counter suite of RUG is pretty good against midrange and control decks (which don't really exist in the format in any notable way). It's about two turns too slow against the aggressive red decks. I could never stabilize. The matchup against Zoo/bant is salvageable only with sweepers. I think we need Volcanic Fallout in the maindeck.. but where? And at what cost?
I have liked Thought Scour and (sometimes) Izzet Charm, but they both severely lack the digging power of Faithless Looting. One major factor is that Looting is still valuable when milled. Charm being EOT has won me some games but it feels.. clunky.
Running Deathrite without black mana has been wasteful. Turn 2 Jace is neat, but I'm rarely comfortable dropping a turn 2 Assault without a grip full of lands. Neither play is nearly as strong as a turn 2 Lili.
Killing big Goyfs is a problem for the deck, that goes without saying. Not having Abrupt Decay sucks.. but up until recently the Jund list didn't have it either so maybe we're a bit pampered.
As much as I like the deck and want it to be legit, I feel like there are too many missing pieces.. However a splash of blue for Snapcaster and some utility may be useful moving forward.
4 Seismic Assault
2 Jace Beleren
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Izzet Charm
4 Life from the Loam
3 Deprive
3 Spell Pierce
3 Thought Scour
2 Pyroclasm
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Raging Ravine
1 Forest
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
2 Cascade Bluffs
2 Steam Vents
3 Copperline Gorge
1 Mountain
SB: 2 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Spellskite
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 Obstinate Baloth
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
The changes in the main were +1 goyf +1 spell pierce +2 pyroclasm -2 Magma Spray -2 Volcanic Fallout and tectonic edge -> 3rd ghost quarter.
The deck packs enough spot removal to deal with early creatures (4 bolts + 3 charms + snapcaster for redundance), especially with the pyroclasm. As soon as Assault gets online the removal becomes mostly unnecessary anyway, because of that I cut the Magma Spray's.
Pyroclasm went in instead of Fallout because i) it didn't hurt myself and ii) it was cheaper, both was relevant. It's not like we are fighting fairies anyway, the uncounterable clause never made any difference.
4th goyf got added because I always wanted one: he holds the ground and makes pressure, perfect fit.
Tec edge always felt miserable, if I wanted to kill lands I wanted them killed immediately, especially against tron when they can assemble their land combo without even needing a forth land.
Overall, the deck felt good, even very good. It is certainly powerful and has answers to almost anything thanks to the counterspells. Deprive is such a house in this deck, and also the other parts have a lot of synergy. It is, however, definitively no autopilot and needs to be operated with a lot of foresight. Almost all match ups I played felt beatable, only burn seemed really bad.
I think I will stay on this for while and get more games through to get a better picture. If anybody has recommendations for sb regarding the burn match up I'd be happy.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/654861-lyzolda-blood-fiend
1. Deathrite Shaman is very, very good. Turning a discarded colorless land into a means of casting Seismic Assault is something I've found myself doing frequently, in addition to gaining life against aggro and even helping you win against control. I'm going to cut my Grim Lavamancers for them; aggro is pretty weak right now, and they're significantly worse now that they can't hit Bloodbraid Elf.
2. Flame Jab still has its uses as backup board control. It may be weak to opposing Shamans, but it remains a useful enough tool to include as a one-of in the maindeck.
3. The Smallpox package is quite a weapon. Being able to hit a Geist from the maindeck and wreck a stretched manabase is powerful option to have at your disposal, and Lingering Souls Jund seems to be declining in popularity. It's an interesting counterpoint to Liliana.
4. Crucible of Worlds isn't good, even as a sideboard option. Very rare is the case when you've got at least three lands and want them on the battlefield rather than in your hand.
5. Treasured Find has been better for me than Eternal Witness. The 2 mana, less green-intensive casting cost has proven significantly more relevant than the weak body in this deck.
Cubetutor Link
On the topic of Faithless Looting, I agree that it is a really strong effect for the deck and is effective at crafting a good hand. I just kept finding myself wanting to use the first turn for something other than Looting and then later in the game it just led to making decisions about cards to pitch and then getting burned by cards off the top of the deck.
For example, I ran into several occasions where I pitched lands with Loam in my hand, but I'd end up wasting a turn casting Loam, to get back the lands to hit my land drops to cast Loam. While Looting itself is fairly elegant, it lead to awkward turns down the way. So, I prefer the Izzet Charm, despite itself being a bit awkward, because it can give the Looting effect when it is 100% beneficial but also serve other rolls when looting doesn't make as much sense.
I'm glad the deck worked well for you. I can see why you made those changes. Goyf and Spell Pierce are good cards. I've been running Fallout over Pyroclasm mainly for the WUR Tempo style decks. There are so few ways to deal with Geist of St. Traft and having one that couldn't be countered seemed like the best decision. I'll have to test with Pyroclasm to get a feel for it. I only ran into the mana cost being an issue once. I need to flash it back with Snapcaster but didn't have the 5th land to get there.
The Tec Edge was pretty bad. I was testing it under the advice of another forum member but I concur that it was never really what I wanted to be seeing. I have since switched back to 3 MB Ghost Quarter. I thought I had mentioned that somewhere but I could have easily forgotten.
It's weird that you guys are mentioning burn as a bad match up. I've played against it a decent amount and it hasn't really struck me as a difficult match. If you get the combo online, they can't really beat you. Especially with counter spells to back you up. They have to have an obscene hand or you need to draw particularly awkward for it to fall largely in their favor. It isn't an easy match up by any means but it shouldn't be impossible to get a handle on. Spellskites out of the board have been the only real tech I bring in against them, taking out Fallouts for them. With the recent bannings, I'm sure the sideboard will need to change. Once a more defined meta fleshes out, it will be easier to know how to change things up. I'm guessing Mindbreak Trap won't be all that necessary any more.
I could see him being used in a Necrotic Ooze deck. Otherwise, he's far too expensive, and this deck isn't really partial to a reanimation plan.
Cubetutor Link
Most Loam players stopped running Harvest a long time ago. In a field of Pod, Combo and Tron a bunch of little 1/1s aren't getting you there fast enough. Also, this deck really wants to function on 3, sometimes 4 lands. Tapping out on five means you're not activating Loam, you're not activating DRS, you're not looting for more Loam triggers.. and the downside of sometimes taking 5 from Bob equals one unplayable card. Who is it good against?
As for Lavamancer, it might be a matter of taste.. but between DRS and Loam, I don't know how often he might be relevant. I really -really- like the card, but aside from the line of:
T1: Fetch, crack, Lavamancer
T2: Fetch, crack, kill your bird.
After that.. I don't see it. I'd take take DRS over it every day.
also: where's Goyf?!
4x Dark Confidant
3x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Raven's Crime
3x Lingering Souls
3x Liliana of the Veil
3x Seismic Assault
4x Life From the Loam
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
2x Horizon Canopy
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Stomping Ground
1x Blood Crypt
1x Godless Shrine
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Temple Garden
1x Wooded Bastion
1x Graven Cairnes
1x Rugged Prairie
1x Fire-Lit Thicket
1x Swamp
1x Forest
2x Ghost Quarter
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Stony Silence
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Ray of Revelation
3x Leyline of Sanctity
Been working on this deck for a while now and finally got it to where i want it.
Will be taking it to the PTQ in Miami next month.
I don't know if the White in the deck does much for you. Lingering Souls and Knight of the Reliquary are solid cards but I don't know if they really provide much for the deck. With going 4 colors like you are, I'd highly recommend Deathrite Shaman as a way to mana fix for you. I can only imagine that hitting RRR on turn 3 is near impossible for you. Let alone your other mana requirements.
I'm also concerned about how many 3-drops you have in the deck. Bob is going to be hitting you for a lot of damage very often. On top of that, your hands are probably going to be fairly clogged with 3 mana cards. Which will leave you very vulnerable to counter magic and general tempo cards. It is important to make sure your curve is good. I'd recommend trying to get Faithless Looting, Deathrite Shaman and possibly Lightning Bolt into the deck. 8 Discard spells seems a little excessive, I'd cut down to 4-6.
You might also want to consider Lightning Greaves with Knight of the Reliquary. It would allow you to get instant utility out of her. Plus, it works well at protecting your other creatures as well. You should really look to get Tarmogoyf in the deck as well. It is a pretty important card for the deck.
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
Spells: 29
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Magma Spray
3 Spell Pierce
3 Thought Scour
3 Deprive
3 Izzet Charm
4 Life from the Loam
2 Pyroclasm
4 Seismic Assault
2 Jace Beleren
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Copperline Gorge
1 Raging Ravine
2 Cascade Bluffs
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Nature's Claim
2 Spellskite
2 Dismember
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Back to Nature
I changed 2 Hurkyl's Recalls to 2 Ancient Grudge, and Magma Spray should be the 4th Goyf. I just haven't gotten my 4th in the mail yet. Anyways, tournament report:
One of the people didn't show up in the pairings, so I played against him after he got his round win. He was playing RG Tron. I kept a hand with 1 Island and two Thought Scour with a Goyf and a Life from the Loam. We only got 1 round in and I did a decent job of holding him off of anything big but I didn't see a single Ghost Quarter or Seismic Assault until he was already tutoring up Eldrazi.
I resolved Assault but he followed up with Karn to exile it and tutored for Ulamog. I pulled a GQ and stuck Ulamog in his hand but he dropped a Wurmcoil. I was sitting with 3 Bolts in hand and Jace in play. I couldn't find a way to do the remaining 14 damage before Wurmcoil connected. I scooped to him but I felt like if I had draw a bit better I could have easily locked him out at a couple points along the way.
Score: 1-0
Round 2: 4 color humans
This was an interesting deck. It involved Champion of the Parish and several of the power 2cmc humans. Bob, Snapcaster, Meddling Mage and a couple others.
Game 1 he had three Cavern of Souls and I was sitting on two Spell Pierce and Deprive. I bolted an early Champion, Snapcaster+bolted his Dark Confidant. Then we traded Snapcaster attacks for awhile. I eventually hit Assault and grinded out a victory.
Game 2 he led with Champion again, he followed with Auriok Champion which I couldn't really do anything about for awhile. I stuck a Tarmogoyf as a 5/6 and started beating into him. I had Assault but no Loam, so I was only picking off problem creatures like Bob and Deathrite. Eventually he had to block the beats and when I went for the final blow he tried to path but I had Deprive.
Sideboard: -3 Spell Pierce; +1 Volcanic Fallout, +2 Engineered Explosives
Score: 2-0
Round 3: 5 color good stuff
This was an odd deck. It was reminiscent of Jund but with blue for Mana Leak, Remand, and Geist of St. Traft and ran some Path to Exile.
Game 1 was a lot of attrition. Bolting his Deathrite Shamans, counter wars, he played Liliana, I played Jace. I was digging for Assault and he couldn't wear out my hand since I had Loam going. I eventually hit Assault and pushed it through a Mana Leak and pitched a land to keep Liliana from Ult'ing. Next turn he scooped to me getting to resolve Loam 3 times.
Game 2 We spent the first few turns cracking fetches and sitting on counter magic, waiting for the other to move first. At 5 mana, I tried to resolve an Assault. He had Mana Leak, I Deprived it and he Remanded the Assault. I passed, he Thoughtseized the Assault, then Surgically Extracted it. I then sat there trying to hold off a Geist of St. Traft, eventually hit Goyf which stopped Geist but he got a Celestial Collonade which connected once before I drew a Ghostquarter. We sat there for awhile, drawing nothing but lands. He eventually attacked in with Geist, dropping me to 2 from the Angel, then shows me bolt and I couldn't counter it.
Game 3 I Thought Scoured, into Bolt + Thought Scour and dropped a Goyf with Spell Pierce back up and kept some steady pressure on him, forcing him to bolt himself off of fetches to keep up. Eventually he resolved Liliana and forced me to sac Goyf. I bolted her at the end of turn. I only had 2 red sources, 2 Island, and a Ghost Quarter with Forest in hand. I floated a Blue, Ghost Quartered an Island for a Mountain. Tapped for 3 red and cast Assault. He had Mana Leak and I sat there looking at the Forest in my hand and 1 short of paying for the Leak. Haven't stopped kicking myself about that. I had nothing left afterwards and he resolved a Geist. I lost after drawing 2 more lands with Loam in hand. I should have won this game, just punted it pretty hard on that Mana Leak.
Sideboard: -1 Magma Spray, -2 Izzet Charm; +1 Volcanic Fallout, +2 Engineered Explosives
Score: 2-1
Round 4: UWR Isochron Scepter
This deck was really cool. It is similar to an idea that's been rattling around in my mind. It is a whole bunch of awesome 2 mana instants and uses Scepter to reuse them repeatedly for value.
Game 1 I thought he was on the UWR tempo plan, so I felt pretty safe until he tried to resolve Scepter on turn 4. We fought about it a bit and I won kind of. He Remanded the Scepter back to his hand. I cast Assault on the following turn with Loam in hand. He stuck the Scepter with Lightning Helix on it. Which from experience, I knew I straight lose to. Sure enough, after doing 3 damage a turn to each other, he countered my Loam one turn and put himself ahead.
Game 2 I sided in 6 hate cards. My opening seven had 3 of them but no lands. After a mull to six, my hand was decent two Islands, some counters, Thought Scour and a Goyf. I countered a Scepter and stuck Goyf as a 4/5. He pathed it right away. We sat there for awhile. He eventually got a Scepter with Remand on it. I was able to keep him from using it by Spell Piercing a second one when he was on 4 mana. But that one hit with Helix on it. I resolved Assault on my free turn but I was sitting on two more in hand as he Helixed me to death. Looked at my top 3 after I died to see the fourth Assault and lands.
Sideboard: -2 Pyroclasm, -1 Magma Spray, -3 Lighting Bolt; +2 Nature's Claim, +2 Engineered Explosives, +2 Spellskite
Score 2-2
Sorry about the wall o' text. Just wanted to be thorough. I felt like the matches I lost, I had a decent shot at. I just drew poorly. I want to replace the Mindbreak Traps but I'm not sure what for. I was thinking about just bumping up numbers of other cards. I guess I could go for some more hate against Tron. Maybe Sowing Salts. Not sure. Any advice or thoughts are more than welcome.
The more I've played with deprive the less I've liked it in matchups that aren't Tron, and even then it's usually not enough to stop them. To that end, perhaps it should be in the side? It's such an awkward card sometimes.
Regarding the Tron matchup, I really don't think it's salvageable. If they "go off" and assemble in the first five turns or so there's nothing we can do without drawing magically into Ghost Quarter every game. Such a crap shoot. Sowing Salt seems a turn too slow. They have imminence and pressure that we lack.. Could LD be the answer? Boom/Bust and Stone Rain? It will slow our kill down but if we stop them from casting Karns, Mindslaver locks and Eldrazi early we should be able to grind them out if it goes long.
I think we need to invest heavily in beating them.. as it's the only strategy that really goes over the top on us. The Twin decks (POD or standard) are all easy enough to beat by playing carefully.. Tron just dunks on us.
EDIT: It's worth noting that Scapeshift is starting to gather some steam.. so the LD package might serve double duty in the coming months.