@theflow: Hi. Ace1 pretty much explained the lands part.
I think gift of the estates is pretty hard to pull off because of the landbase that the deck runs. But could be good. it not to situational
I think a split of 4/3 og 4/2 would be good (seismic/vortex). and maybe one more vortex in the board. Molten vortex seems pretty good in the Aggro matchups which have been hard for me. Might even be good in the control matchups which have been even harder! but i doubt i would go 4/4. but commune with the gods if diffintly worth having!
Vortex being so mana intensive seems like it actually hurts the aggro match up. My game plan with loam is generally
Turn 1: Discard or hold up for bolt.
Turn 2: Decay, draw spell, loam back a couple lands, play pyromancer.
Turn 3: Spells for value, assault with land in land, etc.
With vortex it would go something like
Turn 1: Vortex, discard, or bolt.
Turn 2: Activate vortex once, maybe twice, perhaps cast discard etc and have no form of card advantage... or cast loam.
Turn 3: Loam and activate vortex once.
This is why I have an issue with vortex and would at most run 2 either main or 1/1 split between main and board. This card is definitely not the answer to aggro at all.
Vortex being so mana intensive seems like it actually hurts the aggro match up. My game plan with loam is generally
Turn 1: Discard or hold up for bolt.
Turn 2: Decay, draw spell, loam back a couple lands, play pyromancer.
Turn 3: Spells for value, assault with land in land, etc.
With vortex it would go something like
Turn 1: Vortex, discard, or bolt.
Turn 2: Activate vortex once, maybe twice, perhaps cast discard etc and have no form of card advantage... or cast loam.
Turn 3: Loam and activate vortex once.
This is why I have an issue with vortex and would at most run 2 either main or 1/1 split between main and board. This card is definitely not the answer to aggro at all.
So I'm scouring the net with an eye for something cool that comes about with vortex--I have high-ish, reasonable hopes for a brew using vortex in essentially an assault/jund shell.
While it doesn't quite fix aggro issues on the draw all alone, on the play it seems like it'd do work. I do like that you can play it turn 1 and if you have three lands in your opener and a bolt you're killing up to five toughness turn 2--that's pretty solidly a turn ahead before any attack and counter magic is up for even the earliest dork/tasigur/nacatl. In this deck it seems like an un-remandable, nearly unkillable grim lavamancer--the key is that it synergies with compounded removal the same way lavamancer activations and bolt kill every relevant thing outside of super huge goyfs and titans.
The key issue to this card as opposed to assault is that early turns you are doing minimal disruption and have limited ability to kill things like tasigur and goyf. We already run too much removal and CA for creature light decks to beat us, and we often want our lands to pitch to assault/retrace effects which means we can't commit every land we draw to the board so we can activate. Don't forget that you do still have to invest 2 mana into loam for every 3 times you activate this.
I'm on the same page with you regarding Vortex. I will probably run 0 copies, 1 at most. It just doesn't compare to the explosiveness of Seismic (or Borborygmos).
I'm wondering about the Pyromancer builds, is it worth running X Eternal Witness to be able to 1. recur killed Pyromancers, 2. recur instants/sorceries to further feed Pyromancer? Or is there a superior creature choice that I'm missing? I just know that 4 total creatures is too few, even with Souls tokens.
If you want to return pyroman, haunted fengraf could be considered, but it is probably not a great option. Reccurable so probably better than witness, but still not great. Noxious revival is probably better to run as it can trigger pyromancer while getting a spell back to possibly trigger it again. Chaining magmatic insight is probably fun that way, but probably just silly overall.
If you want to return pyroman, haunted fengraf could be considered, but it is probably not a great option. Reccurable so probably better than witness, but still not great. Noxious revival is probably better to run as it can trigger pyromancer while getting a spell back to possibly trigger it again. Chaining magmatic insight is probably fun that way, but probably just silly overall.
I'd just do what everyone else is doing and run k-command.
Here is a 4C Gifts version I threw together, just to get an idea for how it looks. I'd like to put it together and play a couple games once I obtain the cards and see how everything goes.
I already expect for it to likely be too greedy and under-perform, but that is what testing is for
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
I was playing a Gifts Ungiven Assault Loam pretty hard a while back with a ton of success, but eventually got overwhelmed with Siege Rhinos, and put the deck down. Now with Roast, and some of the new toys were about to be getting, I think it seems like the perfect time to pick the deck back up. Here's the last iteration of the deck before I stopped playing it. Any suggestions on where i should/ could take it from here?
Your Assault Gifts list looks pretty juicy, but I wonder if going to 3 Bolts is a good idea? I understand you have all those 1-ofs for Gifts tricks, but removal in red is already very conditional. I could imagine you running into some trouble when facing opposing Rhinos/Goyfs/Tasigurs. The additional counterspells are probably supposed to balance that out, but we can't exactly counter every card they throw down.
I've been perusing the Jund thread, and I noticed something interesting: their curve is actually higher than ours (generally) and they still play Dark Confidant. So I'm wondering, why aren't we? The gruesome twosome of Pyromancer and Confidant seems like a powerhouse, and the best part about Seismic Loam is that we don't really care if our creatures eat removal. I'd probably have to cut Liliana, but my thinking is that Confidant is on par in terms of card advantage (i get +1 card, rather than you get -1 card).
I'd like to hear your collective thoughts on this very thrown-together core:
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
I feel as though I would want souls to be another 2 looting and a 3rd abrupt decay. Souls is good with young pyro, but he eats removal so you aren't likely to get a ton of value out of him that way. If bob is down and doesn't eat removal then souls is a bolt to your face. I might be wrong, but it seems splashing the 4th color requiring you to fetch, shock, take 3 off bob from souls is a third of your life total not including all the rest of fetching and shocking you will need to be doing while bob hurts you as well. For us I think bob is bad because we don't have finks, huntmaster, or a quick clock in goyf. If you want to run bob you probably need at least 1 of the 3 other things I mentioned to make his card advantage not kill you.
Agreed, i think confidant is an aggro card because it puts us on a clock, and i think loam is more of a controllish deck. Bob is good when we have goyf and other powerful creatures to beat down the opponent to zero life quickly, so i'd say no goyf, no bob.
Even running him with huntmaster or finks would probably be fine. I just think that without life gain OR a quick clock that he is way too risky. Especially given all the delver/delve/aggro decks out there.
I've been using Young Pyromancer along with Flame Jabs and Raven's Crimes for quite some time, and thought that Magmatic Insight could allow the deck to be faster and more oriented towards slamming Seismic Assault on turn 3. The advent of Molten Vortex improved the Twin matchup quite a bit, as well as the game 1 against Burn. In order to support both new inclusions, upped the land count to 27 so I can promptly discard lands on the earlier stages of the game even without access to Life from the Loam. The 8 looting effects have greatly increased the deck's consistency, as well as the ability to dig for appropriate answers.
Obviously, I'm still refining the list, and proceeding with further tests. Currently my results have been very good - considerable improvement upon previous RG lists. Still uncertain whether the B splash is actually worth it, but will surely test different splashes as soon as I'm comfortable with the RG core. After B, I should look for U possibilities - leaving W for last.
Regarding Molten Vortex alone, I'd say that its inclusion on midrange decks with land count superior to 23 could work somewhat well as anti-flood engine (really gotta test a bit more)
I am very surprised to hear positive testing of it. Maybe I was too quick to dismiss the mana investment required. Perhaps in a GR build it is much better but in a jund build it may not be as good because we have other forms on disruption early which can have a larger impact on the game. Keep up updated I am very interested to hear how it does. I plan to pick up 2 but I don't think I would play more than that.
I've done some testing with molten vortex and magmatic insight as well. Insight is very good, although on rare occasions it got stuck in my hand. Vortex has been pretty good as well.
I've tested vs hatebears, lantern top control and grixis delver. Vs delver, vortex is a lot easier to resolve and can kill delvers turn 2, which is very nice. It is a bit worse vs opposing gurmag anglers and tasigurs, so there's that. Vs hatebears vortex is a lot better vs opposing thalia. The mana cost for activation hasn't been a huge factor, it mattered in some games but in those games my opponent had thalia and she would have prevented me from casting seismic assault anyways.
i'm still unsure of the correct split between assault and vortex, right now i'Ve been trying out 4x vortex because i want to test the card but maybe adding 2 assault isn't a bad idea.
Has anyone looked into the Temur Control variant recently? I kinda wanna play this engine with some Cryptic Commands... Snapping back Magmatic Insight seems sweet too. Any love for Temur??
[...]
Perhaps in a GR build it is much better but in a jund build it may not be as good because we have other forms on disruption early which can have a larger impact on the game. Keep up updated I am very interested to hear how it does. I plan to pick up 2 but I don't think I would play more than that.
The main problem I see with Jund based lists is reliably casting Seismic Assault/having good mana for multiple activations of Molten Vortex. The color requirements for the deck's core being RRR, BG, BB and an early G keep things awkward. I agree with you in that, in a Jund list, we have access to more reliable disruption (be it discard spells, cheap removal or Liliana of the Veil) - but that's the catch.
A Jund deck focused on Life from the Loam shenanigans (as this is the Assault Loam primer) will probably be right in dismissing Molten Vortex, as the card is NOT the early disruption it needs. However, considering a Jund list closer to Jund Midrange decks (for example, without Seismic Assault) I believe the Vortex can provide a very real board control tool, adding +2 damage and increasing the deck's reach - the core idea being that this deck does not necessarily aims to activate Vortex more than once/twice per turn, nor recurring lands as a regular play.
My first tests with Jund have been more based on a midrange list than an Assault variant (though I added Life from the Loam and some retrace spells). Results are inconclusive as of now, since I'm still struggling with land count and whether to play Young Pyromancer or not.
[...]
i'm still unsure of the correct split between assault and vortex, right now i'Ve been trying out 4x vortex because i want to test the card but maybe adding 2 assault isn't a bad idea.
IMO, as slamming a Seismic Assault on the table is a strict upgrade to Molten Vortex, I'd play more Assaults than Vortexes. Currently I'm playing a 2/4 split, with a third Vortex on the sideboard, though a 2/3 split could also be nice as the deck now draws a lot more cards - also, playing 2 Pyroclasms maindeck. The situations you need the Vortex often imply that you cast it on turn 1 or 2, so in these matches I'd simply mulligan aggressively for it.
I have already tested the deck -2 Pyroclasm, +2 Molten Vortex and was displeased with it. Though, removing Pyroclasms for 1 Vortex and another interesting tool COULD work.
Has anyone considered Risen Executioner in the Jund lists? Seems worthwhile to throw away a creature that we can recast whenever we please
Risen Executioner has a fairly weak recursion, IMO. It costs as little as 2BB, and that increases for each creature you have on the bin. I don't like the prospect of having to play land #4 and upper just so I can recur a mediocre creature - vulnerable to bolt, can't block, etc. I'd rather try Bloodghasts, for example.
On the subject of blockers, however, there were some strategies that played Haakon, Stromgald Scourge alongside with Nameless Inversions in a dredge shell.
Has anyone looked into the Temur Control variant recently? I kinda wanna play this engine with some Cryptic Commands... Snapping back Magmatic Insight seems sweet too. Any love for Temur??
Back in Delver meta (last year) I tested a couple of RUG lists, most of them based around Treasure Cruise and looting effects, as well as Izzet Charm (amazing card on the archetype) and cheap disruption (Spell Snare, Spell Pierce) composing the core of the deck. Idea was to draw as many cards as possible, assemble Seismic Assault+Life from the Loam and burn opponent down with lands/beat with Young Pyromancer's tokens.
Given this experience, I must say that the manabase was somewhat clunky (wanted early access to UR, RRR as soon as possible and required G on the spot) and land count never seemed to be enough (the deck wanted to hit all land drops, and keep up mana to disrupt/protect itself). All in all, it was hella fun, albeit slower and sometimes clunkier than more straightforward Assault lists. That said, I don't think such a deck can reliably achieve both RRR and UUU reliably, especially considering that to recur fetchlands and whatnot you'd need to cast one or more early Life from the Loam just for the sake of setting spells online, making this a very vulnerable time window in which you opponent could - with minimal disruption - set your entire game plan back for 2+ turns. Also, I don't like how vulnerable this deck would be to Ghost Quarter.
Snapcaster Mage, on the other hand, looks like a great idea. Do try developing a RUG list, but be careful with the mana requirements.
I was toying with the idea of splashing blue only for Snapcaster Mage, that way it wouldn't be too big of a burden on the mana base to support U. The other card I've been thinking about is Ensnaring Bridge to deal with bigger creatures like Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Gurmag Angler.
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I think gift of the estates is pretty hard to pull off because of the landbase that the deck runs. But could be good. it not to situational
I think a split of 4/3 og 4/2 would be good (seismic/vortex). and maybe one more vortex in the board. Molten vortex seems pretty good in the Aggro matchups which have been hard for me. Might even be good in the control matchups which have been even harder! but i doubt i would go 4/4. but commune with the gods if diffintly worth having!
Turn 1: Discard or hold up for bolt.
Turn 2: Decay, draw spell, loam back a couple lands, play pyromancer.
Turn 3: Spells for value, assault with land in land, etc.
With vortex it would go something like
Turn 1: Vortex, discard, or bolt.
Turn 2: Activate vortex once, maybe twice, perhaps cast discard etc and have no form of card advantage... or cast loam.
Turn 3: Loam and activate vortex once.
This is why I have an issue with vortex and would at most run 2 either main or 1/1 split between main and board. This card is definitely not the answer to aggro at all.
So I'm scouring the net with an eye for something cool that comes about with vortex--I have high-ish, reasonable hopes for a brew using vortex in essentially an assault/jund shell.
While it doesn't quite fix aggro issues on the draw all alone, on the play it seems like it'd do work. I do like that you can play it turn 1 and if you have three lands in your opener and a bolt you're killing up to five toughness turn 2--that's pretty solidly a turn ahead before any attack and counter magic is up for even the earliest dork/tasigur/nacatl. In this deck it seems like an un-remandable, nearly unkillable grim lavamancer--the key is that it synergies with compounded removal the same way lavamancer activations and bolt kill every relevant thing outside of super huge goyfs and titans.
I'm wondering about the Pyromancer builds, is it worth running X Eternal Witness to be able to 1. recur killed Pyromancers, 2. recur instants/sorceries to further feed Pyromancer? Or is there a superior creature choice that I'm missing? I just know that 4 total creatures is too few, even with Souls tokens.
I'd just do what everyone else is doing and run k-command.
I already expect for it to likely be too greedy and under-perform, but that is what testing is for
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Unburial Rites
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Magmatic Insight
3 Molten Vortex
1 Seismic Assault
1 Woodland Bellower
3 Path to Exile
3 Life from the Loam
2 Eternal Witness
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
3 Stomping Ground
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Temple Garden
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Breeding Pool
2 Raging Ravine
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Stony Silence
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Thragtusk
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Rending Volley
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Remand
3 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
2 Izzet Charm
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Searing Blaze
1 Electrolyze
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Slagstorm
1 Pyroclasm
2 Life from the Loam
1 Noxious Revival
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Treetop Village
1 Raging Ravine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Tectonic Edge
3 Dragon's Claw
2 Pithing Needle
2 Combust
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Deglamer
1 Unravel the Æther
1 Damping Matrix
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Keranos, God of Storms
Man even just typing this out, and looking at the old list is making me hungry to brew again! So cool we get some new stuff to work with soon here!
I've been perusing the Jund thread, and I noticed something interesting: their curve is actually higher than ours (generally) and they still play Dark Confidant. So I'm wondering, why aren't we? The gruesome twosome of Pyromancer and Confidant seems like a powerhouse, and the best part about Seismic Loam is that we don't really care if our creatures eat removal. I'd probably have to cut Liliana, but my thinking is that Confidant is on par in terms of card advantage (i get +1 card, rather than you get -1 card).
I'd like to hear your collective thoughts on this very thrown-together core:
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Life from the Loam
3 Seismic Assault
3 Raven's Crime
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Magmatic Insight
2 Faithless Looting
3 Lingering Souls
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
36 cards, which leaves 24 slots for lands. The lowered curve should allow 24 to function well. If this looks silly to anyone, feel free to say so.
Currently testing the following list, as straightforward as it gets:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Stomping Ground
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Raging Ravine
3 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Countrside Crusher
1 Eternal Witness
//Spells (18)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Magmatic Insight
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroclasm
4 Life from the Loam
//Enchantments (6)
2 Molten Vortex
4 Seismic Assault
1 Molten Vortex
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Combust
3 Destructive Revelry
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Guttural Response
I've been using Young Pyromancer along with Flame Jabs and Raven's Crimes for quite some time, and thought that Magmatic Insight could allow the deck to be faster and more oriented towards slamming Seismic Assault on turn 3. The advent of Molten Vortex improved the Twin matchup quite a bit, as well as the game 1 against Burn. In order to support both new inclusions, upped the land count to 27 so I can promptly discard lands on the earlier stages of the game even without access to Life from the Loam. The 8 looting effects have greatly increased the deck's consistency, as well as the ability to dig for appropriate answers.
Obviously, I'm still refining the list, and proceeding with further tests. Currently my results have been very good - considerable improvement upon previous RG lists. Still uncertain whether the B splash is actually worth it, but will surely test different splashes as soon as I'm comfortable with the RG core. After B, I should look for U possibilities - leaving W for last.
Regarding Molten Vortex alone, I'd say that its inclusion on midrange decks with land count superior to 23 could work somewhat well as anti-flood engine (really gotta test a bit more)
I've tested vs hatebears, lantern top control and grixis delver. Vs delver, vortex is a lot easier to resolve and can kill delvers turn 2, which is very nice. It is a bit worse vs opposing gurmag anglers and tasigurs, so there's that. Vs hatebears vortex is a lot better vs opposing thalia. The mana cost for activation hasn't been a huge factor, it mattered in some games but in those games my opponent had thalia and she would have prevented me from casting seismic assault anyways.
i'm still unsure of the correct split between assault and vortex, right now i'Ve been trying out 4x vortex because i want to test the card but maybe adding 2 assault isn't a bad idea.
The main problem I see with Jund based lists is reliably casting Seismic Assault/having good mana for multiple activations of Molten Vortex. The color requirements for the deck's core being RRR, BG, BB and an early G keep things awkward. I agree with you in that, in a Jund list, we have access to more reliable disruption (be it discard spells, cheap removal or Liliana of the Veil) - but that's the catch.
A Jund deck focused on Life from the Loam shenanigans (as this is the Assault Loam primer) will probably be right in dismissing Molten Vortex, as the card is NOT the early disruption it needs. However, considering a Jund list closer to Jund Midrange decks (for example, without Seismic Assault) I believe the Vortex can provide a very real board control tool, adding +2 damage and increasing the deck's reach - the core idea being that this deck does not necessarily aims to activate Vortex more than once/twice per turn, nor recurring lands as a regular play.
My first tests with Jund have been more based on a midrange list than an Assault variant (though I added Life from the Loam and some retrace spells). Results are inconclusive as of now, since I'm still struggling with land count and whether to play Young Pyromancer or not.
IMO, as slamming a Seismic Assault on the table is a strict upgrade to Molten Vortex, I'd play more Assaults than Vortexes. Currently I'm playing a 2/4 split, with a third Vortex on the sideboard, though a 2/3 split could also be nice as the deck now draws a lot more cards - also, playing 2 Pyroclasms maindeck. The situations you need the Vortex often imply that you cast it on turn 1 or 2, so in these matches I'd simply mulligan aggressively for it.
I have already tested the deck -2 Pyroclasm, +2 Molten Vortex and was displeased with it. Though, removing Pyroclasms for 1 Vortex and another interesting tool COULD work.
Risen Executioner has a fairly weak recursion, IMO. It costs as little as 2BB, and that increases for each creature you have on the bin. I don't like the prospect of having to play land #4 and upper just so I can recur a mediocre creature - vulnerable to bolt, can't block, etc. I'd rather try Bloodghasts, for example.
On the subject of blockers, however, there were some strategies that played Haakon, Stromgald Scourge alongside with Nameless Inversions in a dredge shell.
Back in Delver meta (last year) I tested a couple of RUG lists, most of them based around Treasure Cruise and looting effects, as well as Izzet Charm (amazing card on the archetype) and cheap disruption (Spell Snare, Spell Pierce) composing the core of the deck. Idea was to draw as many cards as possible, assemble Seismic Assault+Life from the Loam and burn opponent down with lands/beat with Young Pyromancer's tokens.
Given this experience, I must say that the manabase was somewhat clunky (wanted early access to UR, RRR as soon as possible and required G on the spot) and land count never seemed to be enough (the deck wanted to hit all land drops, and keep up mana to disrupt/protect itself). All in all, it was hella fun, albeit slower and sometimes clunkier than more straightforward Assault lists. That said, I don't think such a deck can reliably achieve both RRR and UUU reliably, especially considering that to recur fetchlands and whatnot you'd need to cast one or more early Life from the Loam just for the sake of setting spells online, making this a very vulnerable time window in which you opponent could - with minimal disruption - set your entire game plan back for 2+ turns. Also, I don't like how vulnerable this deck would be to Ghost Quarter.
Snapcaster Mage, on the other hand, looks like a great idea. Do try developing a RUG list, but be careful with the mana requirements.