to not being a Beater on there own, but being a Dude that either protects our threats (Assault or Knight) or delays
our opponents Gameplan (Voice, Priest, Lavamancer, Sculler, Pridemage). Any thoughts on that?
Zoo strategy to start, loam for that added reach after the aggro plan is foiled.
This captures why I gave up Assault Loam and went to Loam Pox. The plan in Loam Pox seems lots more cohesive, versus do one thing until you assemble your combo of sorts. Getting tons of value out of your graveyard feels much better when you've got the engine going.
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
The jund variants tend to run smallpox. They are mainly red and black with the green for loam and decay. They would run similar to loam pox but they have more efficient removal in the form of bolt and could run terminate. Plus loam plus assault just kills things.
Zoo strategy to start, loam for that added reach after the aggro plan is foiled.
This captures why I gave up Assault Loam and went to Loam Pox. The plan in Loam Pox seems lots more cohesive, versus do one thing until you assemble your combo of sorts. Getting tons of value out of your graveyard feels much better when you've got the engine going.
Yeah,
sums it ups.
In Naya my Dudes in the Yard just do nothing when Life from the Loam hits the Field.
It's just Overall dead potential.
Knight of the Reliquary is THE Dude in Naya Colors because he becomes really huge and is able to Tutor for Ghost Quarter to screw 3C / 4C Decks
or to look for Manlands like Stirring Wildwood or Raging Ravine, which often feels like Win-More Cards. Countryside Crusher is
clunky with his 3cmc, Courser of Kruphix has some interaction with the Deck, but besides that i can't find a really Value-Dude in Naya Colors.
I also considered to go more in a Board Control Shell with Cards like Anger of the Gods, Wrath of God and maybe Fiery Justice but
that leaves the Deck with a huge Gap in fighting Combo Decks.
I worked just fine for the most part (there were some weird opening hands from time to time), but with the new (old) fetches it should be consistent enough. Keep in mind that this was to support Liliana, Smallpox and Assault.
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Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
Essentially, the goal of this decklist is to double down on the Loam plan. More dig and dredge triggers with Tibalt to speed up the engine, Nykthos to power out some big turns, a more stable manabase to reliably land an Assault and survive a Blood Moon, and some alternate methods of converting your lands into an advantage.
I'm uncertain on the sideboard, but it'll probably involve some number of Grudge, Moon, and Explosives. Any advice for the tune-up?
Pox Loam is an alternative, but if you want to go the creature route, perhaps Young Pyromancer may be a decent inclusion. Sadly, nothing replaces Goyf :/
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Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
I've had more fun playing Loam Pox than any Assault variation anyway. The only money cards outside of lands are Bloodghasts, too. Tons of decisions, whereas Assault Loam seems like you're trying to buy time to assemble a combo. I do miss the direct damage, though.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
PS: When / why the Bloodghast price spiked up? When I bought them they were like 2 dollars each if I'm not mistaken.
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Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
So I went a disappointing 2-4 with Tibalt Loam at GP Charlotte. Great testing results didn't quite translate this time around. My maindeck was the same as posted above, with the exception of 2 Scavenging Ooze and a 4th Bolt in place of Goyf. Quick tournament rundown:
Warmup Match- Collected Company GW Aggro: 1-0 A long, hard-fought battle in games 1 and 2, the second of which we had to cut short. In game 1, my opponent mistimed a fetchland crack allowing me to activate Assault and burn out his Pridemage. The writing was on the wall after that, though Goyfs helped him stabilize. There was no end in sight for the second game before we called it off.
Match 1- UR Twin: 2-1 In game 1 I landed an Assault but never found Loam, and after a bit of prodding my opponent managed to find an opening and combo off. Game 2 and 3 my opponent never had a prayer after I assembled the engine. I feel particularly good about this matchup.
Match 2- Infect: 2-0 Another good matchup. You have so much uncounterable instant speed interaction that opponents never get a chance to "go for it". This one was pretty smooth sailing.
Match 3- Amulet Bloom: 0-2 Game 1 My opponent is on the play and wins on turn 3 through a Ghost Quarter. Sometimes life isn't fair. Game 2 I make a bad keep without enough interaction or looting, and my opponent simply ramps into Hive Mind. I think this matchup could be salvaged with more prison elements to the deck.
Match 4- Burn: 1-2 A very entertaining match. Game 1 I downright outrace him, assembling the combo immediately and getting a turn 5 kill. Game 2 I make another questionable keep and never find Assault. Game 3 was all-out war, with my opponent landing an early Kor Firewalker. I brought in Golgari Brownscale out of the sideboard for this matchup, but they underperformed pretty badly. Tibalt couldn't stick against Firewalker, and hardcasting the Brownscale was far too slow. Again I fail to find Assault, but almost pull it out until I fail to play around Monastery Swiftspear and my opponent crashes in for the win.
Match 5- Bogles: 0-2 I'd rather not talk about this one. My opponent stumbled in both games, never played a Coronet, and still beat the tar out of me. A sideboarded Rest in Peace was my undoing in game 2. Sometimes I wonder if I should play Back to Nature in the board, then I realize it wouldn't matter.
Match 6- Affinity: 0-2 Burned out and getting knocked out of top 8 contention, my heart wasn't in this one. I mulligan both games. Not keeping up a Lightning Bolt comes back to bite me as I get crushed by a 5/5 Ensouled Ornithopter in game 1. Game 2 I have plenty of removal, but my stupidity lets my opponent start activating a Steel Overseer onto 2 Blinkmoth Nexus and a Signal Pest. Death followed shortly. These matches felt very winnable and were lost mostly due to my misplays and inexperience against Affinity.
Thoughts on the deck:
-Scavenging Ooze is no Tarmogoyf. This deck simply can't execute an aggressive gameplan without all 4 Goyfs. The one I did have was fantastic all day.
-I had a hunch that Tibalt could be a liability in a lot of matchups, and I sideboarded it out a lot. This was a mistake, as this deck was pretty cold when it didn't find an Assault. You need all the dig you can get, and I lost a lot of my later matches because I flooded out and had nothing to do with the lands. Flame Jab and Conflagrate are useful but inefficient.
-Ghost Quarter really pulled its weight. I managed to apply the Crucible lock a couple of times, and some decks just can't get out from out of it.
-The devotion package was pretty weak. 90% of the time you want that Nykthos to be a Ghost Quarter and/or a mountain.
-Out of the sideboard, Destructive Revelry was fantastic. Tunnel Ignus looked promising, especially with BTE. Golgari Brownscale was bad and should probably just be Feed the Clan or something similar.
-Going forward, I think the future of this deck is in Prison, not Devotion. Blood Moon would have gone a long way in shoring up bad matchups, even as it hits your utility lands.
Don't worry, the Tibalt dream is far from over! This is a complicated deck, and I feel I know it a lot better after taking it up against real competition. I'll continue to test and post updates here.
I completely missed your original post asking for advice.
I will start to say that if you run 1 forest and 5 mountains you aren't really playing around blood moon so well. You probably want multiple forests since you need to be able to cast loam without having to worry if a blood moon drops.
Tunnel Ignus seems like a great card to own the bloom match up. They do have slaughter pact, but if you land multiples I am fairly certain they just lose.
It really seems like burning tree and nykthos really don't have a place in this deck. The devotion idea is very interesting, but would probably be better if you ran something that drew you cards more efficiently and bonfire of the damned to really give yourself a good sink for that mana that not only answers the board, but has reach. On that note though, how did wolf run perform for you?
I ran tibalt in a jund legacy loam list that I built a while ago. He really was impressive there. If we had access to wasteland, he would really shine with his -4 ability since we could get that online quickly. I will have to test something similar to your list. I find it very neat. I agree that tibalt is a tempting cut, that is an incorrect cut. He really does work digging. It is really nice to be able to actually draw a card in your draw step and then have tibalt dredge back loam.
I completely missed your original post asking for advice.
I will start to say that if you run 1 forest and 5 mountains you aren't really playing around blood moon so well. You probably want multiple forests since you need to be able to cast loam without having to worry if a blood moon drops.
Tunnel Ignus seems like a great card to own the bloom match up. They do have slaughter pact, but if you land multiples I am fairly certain they just lose.
It really seems like burning tree and nykthos really don't have a place in this deck. The devotion idea is very interesting, but would probably be better if you ran something that drew you cards more efficiently and bonfire of the damned to really give yourself a good sink for that mana that not only answers the board, but has reach. On that note though, how did wolf run perform for you?
I ran tibalt in a jund legacy loam list that I built a while ago. He really was impressive there. If we had access to wasteland, he would really shine with his -4 ability since we could get that online quickly. I will have to test something similar to your list. I find it very neat. I agree that tibalt is a tempting cut, that is an incorrect cut. He really does work digging. It is really nice to be able to actually draw a card in your draw step and then have tibalt dredge back loam.
Thanks for the response. I'm not too experienced with playing around Blood Moon, but I really want to be able to cast Assault ASAP. Fire-Lit Thicket might be a good way to squeeze in more forests. I'll probably overhaul the manabase as I move in that direction.
Burning Tree was fine and led to several random wins in testing where I went BTE, BTE, Tarmogoyf, but I agree that it and Nykthos don't really fit. My main mana sink was supposed to be flashing back Looting, but the time I wanted to do that most was when I was looking for Assault (my main devotion source), and in the later game hitting hitting lands isn't really a problem. Wolf Run ended up being my best mana sink (helps that Realms fetches it), but colorless is a significant cost this deck. I'll probably cut it when I move away from Devotion.
FWIW, here are the matchups as I've found them so far:
Very Positive: Infect, Merfolk, Elves
Slightly Positive: Delver, Twin, Jund
50/50: Affinity, Junk, CoCo combo
Slighly Negative: Bloom, Tron
Very Negative: Burn, Bogles, Ad Nauseum
Against bogles you could try something like back to nature as a sideboard card. Yes it would kill an assault if you ran one out, but it could also kill all the enchantments on their creature..if you were willing to throw a sacred foundry and a temple garden you could splash just white for ray of revelation for that match up, plus rest for the weary against burn.
I really like the singleton wolf run. Such a shame that my version doesn't make mana like yours does.
So how about running 3 Basic Forests and Nissa's Pilgrimage now? It would probably work out really well in the straight up RG Loam version as that could accommodate more basics.
I don't think it will ever be able to replace Loam, but it sure provides the same effect.
Is the goal of Nissa's Pilgrimage to ramp or to stock your hand? As much as I like the card, I wonder if its worth the space in the deck. What sort of numbers would you play?
Is the goal of Nissa's Pilgrimage to ramp or to stock your hand? As much as I like the card, I wonder if its worth the space in the deck. What sort of numbers would you play?
I saw it as a way to get 2 lands into your hand to pitch to Assault. It basically functions as extra copies of Life From the Loam. With the basic forest restriction I could only see it in a RG version as maybe a 1-2 of. Just trying to brainstorm ideas for the deck that's all.
This is currently what I'm fking with. Reanimator is strong in a format that has like 3 grave hate spells that nobody seems to play.
I'm considering cutting Liliana for Young Pyromancer, but the edict effect is arguably stronger than a token engine. I do like swarms of blockers though, especially if the opponent doesn't know about my Borborygmos plan.
Also, Seismic is in the SB for now.
i came to that conclusion myself when i tested it on Trice last Night
I thought about running other Creature-dependent Dudes like
but nobody fits the Bill perfectly.
For now i run 3 Ooze for utilizing my dead Dudes.
Green @ it's best
When i think of Commune with the Gods, FAithless Looting and Tormenting Voice i always expect to find some Bears like
Qasali Pridemage or Scavenging Ooze which helps a lot by delaying our Opponent.
Taking this Approach further i think of Creatures like
to not being a Beater on there own, but being a Dude that either protects our threats (Assault or Knight) or delays
our opponents Gameplan (Voice, Priest, Lavamancer, Sculler, Pridemage). Any thoughts on that?
Green @ it's best
This captures why I gave up Assault Loam and went to Loam Pox. The plan in Loam Pox seems lots more cohesive, versus do one thing until you assemble your combo of sorts. Getting tons of value out of your graveyard feels much better when you've got the engine going.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Yeah,
sums it ups.
In Naya my Dudes in the Yard just do nothing when Life from the Loam hits the Field.
It's just Overall dead potential.
Knight of the Reliquary is THE Dude in Naya Colors because he becomes really huge and is able to Tutor for Ghost Quarter to screw 3C / 4C Decks
or to look for Manlands like Stirring Wildwood or Raging Ravine, which often feels like Win-More Cards. Countryside Crusher is
clunky with his 3cmc, Courser of Kruphix has some interaction with the Deck, but besides that i can't find a really Value-Dude in Naya Colors.
I also considered to go more in a Board Control Shell with Cards like Anger of the Gods, Wrath of God and maybe Fiery Justice but
that leaves the Deck with a huge Gap in fighting Combo Decks.
My next idea had been to run Life from the Loam with Knight of the Reliquary and a Bunch of Manlands (Treetop Village, RAvine, Wildwood).
FAithless Looting and Tormenting Voice dig for the right Cards, dropping Lands to the Grave and recur them with Loam.
That's kinda clunky too.
Green @ it's best
I need to buy some parts of the Mana Base.
What would fit here?
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Graven Cairns
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
has anybody tested Kolaghan's Command ?
Green @ it's best
1 copperline gorge
1 forest
2 swamp
4 graven cairns
4 verdant catacombs
1 raging ravine
1 treetop village
1 Lavaclaw reachea
1 ghost quarter
2 overgrown tomb
1 blood crypt
1 stomping ground
I worked just fine for the most part (there were some weird opening hands from time to time), but with the new (old) fetches it should be consistent enough. Keep in mind that this was to support Liliana, Smallpox and Assault.
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Countryside Crusher
Instants/Sorceries (14)
4x Faithless Looting
3x Lightning Bolt
1x Flame Jab
4x Life From the Loam
1x Realms Uncharted
1x Conflagrate
4x Tibalt, the Fiend Blooded
4x Seismic Assault
1x Crucible of Worlds
Lands (25)
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Stomping Ground
3x Copperline Gorge
1x Raging Ravine
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Kessig Wolf Run
5x Mountain
1x Forest
Essentially, the goal of this decklist is to double down on the Loam plan. More dig and dredge triggers with Tibalt to speed up the engine, Nykthos to power out some big turns, a more stable manabase to reliably land an Assault and survive a Blood Moon, and some alternate methods of converting your lands into an advantage.
I'm uncertain on the sideboard, but it'll probably involve some number of Grudge, Moon, and Explosives. Any advice for the tune-up?
Cubetutor Link
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
This is an old list of mine (as in old!):
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Graven Cairns
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodghast
4 Faithless Looting
2 Flame Jab
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Life from the Loam
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pyroclasm
3 Raven's Crime
3 Seismic Assault
4 Smallpox
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Jund Charm
1 Nature's Claim
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Torpor Orb
PS: When / why the Bloodghast price spiked up? When I bought them they were like 2 dollars each if I'm not mistaken.
Warmup Match- Collected Company GW Aggro: 1-0 A long, hard-fought battle in games 1 and 2, the second of which we had to cut short. In game 1, my opponent mistimed a fetchland crack allowing me to activate Assault and burn out his Pridemage. The writing was on the wall after that, though Goyfs helped him stabilize. There was no end in sight for the second game before we called it off.
Match 1- UR Twin: 2-1 In game 1 I landed an Assault but never found Loam, and after a bit of prodding my opponent managed to find an opening and combo off. Game 2 and 3 my opponent never had a prayer after I assembled the engine. I feel particularly good about this matchup.
Match 2- Infect: 2-0 Another good matchup. You have so much uncounterable instant speed interaction that opponents never get a chance to "go for it". This one was pretty smooth sailing.
Match 3- Amulet Bloom: 0-2 Game 1 My opponent is on the play and wins on turn 3 through a Ghost Quarter. Sometimes life isn't fair. Game 2 I make a bad keep without enough interaction or looting, and my opponent simply ramps into Hive Mind. I think this matchup could be salvaged with more prison elements to the deck.
Match 4- Burn: 1-2 A very entertaining match. Game 1 I downright outrace him, assembling the combo immediately and getting a turn 5 kill. Game 2 I make another questionable keep and never find Assault. Game 3 was all-out war, with my opponent landing an early Kor Firewalker. I brought in Golgari Brownscale out of the sideboard for this matchup, but they underperformed pretty badly. Tibalt couldn't stick against Firewalker, and hardcasting the Brownscale was far too slow. Again I fail to find Assault, but almost pull it out until I fail to play around Monastery Swiftspear and my opponent crashes in for the win.
Match 5- Bogles: 0-2 I'd rather not talk about this one. My opponent stumbled in both games, never played a Coronet, and still beat the tar out of me. A sideboarded Rest in Peace was my undoing in game 2. Sometimes I wonder if I should play Back to Nature in the board, then I realize it wouldn't matter.
Match 6- Affinity: 0-2 Burned out and getting knocked out of top 8 contention, my heart wasn't in this one. I mulligan both games. Not keeping up a Lightning Bolt comes back to bite me as I get crushed by a 5/5 Ensouled Ornithopter in game 1. Game 2 I have plenty of removal, but my stupidity lets my opponent start activating a Steel Overseer onto 2 Blinkmoth Nexus and a Signal Pest. Death followed shortly. These matches felt very winnable and were lost mostly due to my misplays and inexperience against Affinity.
Thoughts on the deck:
-Scavenging Ooze is no Tarmogoyf. This deck simply can't execute an aggressive gameplan without all 4 Goyfs. The one I did have was fantastic all day.
-I had a hunch that Tibalt could be a liability in a lot of matchups, and I sideboarded it out a lot. This was a mistake, as this deck was pretty cold when it didn't find an Assault. You need all the dig you can get, and I lost a lot of my later matches because I flooded out and had nothing to do with the lands. Flame Jab and Conflagrate are useful but inefficient.
-Ghost Quarter really pulled its weight. I managed to apply the Crucible lock a couple of times, and some decks just can't get out from out of it.
-The devotion package was pretty weak. 90% of the time you want that Nykthos to be a Ghost Quarter and/or a mountain.
-Out of the sideboard, Destructive Revelry was fantastic. Tunnel Ignus looked promising, especially with BTE. Golgari Brownscale was bad and should probably just be Feed the Clan or something similar.
-Going forward, I think the future of this deck is in Prison, not Devotion. Blood Moon would have gone a long way in shoring up bad matchups, even as it hits your utility lands.
Don't worry, the Tibalt dream is far from over! This is a complicated deck, and I feel I know it a lot better after taking it up against real competition. I'll continue to test and post updates here.
Cubetutor Link
I will start to say that if you run 1 forest and 5 mountains you aren't really playing around blood moon so well. You probably want multiple forests since you need to be able to cast loam without having to worry if a blood moon drops.
Tunnel Ignus seems like a great card to own the bloom match up. They do have slaughter pact, but if you land multiples I am fairly certain they just lose.
It really seems like burning tree and nykthos really don't have a place in this deck. The devotion idea is very interesting, but would probably be better if you ran something that drew you cards more efficiently and bonfire of the damned to really give yourself a good sink for that mana that not only answers the board, but has reach. On that note though, how did wolf run perform for you?
I ran tibalt in a jund legacy loam list that I built a while ago. He really was impressive there. If we had access to wasteland, he would really shine with his -4 ability since we could get that online quickly. I will have to test something similar to your list. I find it very neat. I agree that tibalt is a tempting cut, that is an incorrect cut. He really does work digging. It is really nice to be able to actually draw a card in your draw step and then have tibalt dredge back loam.
Thanks for the response. I'm not too experienced with playing around Blood Moon, but I really want to be able to cast Assault ASAP. Fire-Lit Thicket might be a good way to squeeze in more forests. I'll probably overhaul the manabase as I move in that direction.
Burning Tree was fine and led to several random wins in testing where I went BTE, BTE, Tarmogoyf, but I agree that it and Nykthos don't really fit. My main mana sink was supposed to be flashing back Looting, but the time I wanted to do that most was when I was looking for Assault (my main devotion source), and in the later game hitting hitting lands isn't really a problem. Wolf Run ended up being my best mana sink (helps that Realms fetches it), but colorless is a significant cost this deck. I'll probably cut it when I move away from Devotion.
FWIW, here are the matchups as I've found them so far:
Very Positive: Infect, Merfolk, Elves
Slightly Positive: Delver, Twin, Jund
50/50: Affinity, Junk, CoCo combo
Slighly Negative: Bloom, Tron
Very Negative: Burn, Bogles, Ad Nauseum
Cubetutor Link
I really like the singleton wolf run. Such a shame that my version doesn't make mana like yours does.
I don't think it will ever be able to replace Loam, but it sure provides the same effect.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I'm considering cutting Liliana for Young Pyromancer, but the edict effect is arguably stronger than a token engine. I do like swarms of blockers though, especially if the opponent doesn't know about my Borborygmos plan.
Also, Seismic is in the SB for now.
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Urborgh, Tomb of the Yawgmoth
1 Raging Ravine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
3 Graven Cairns
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Boborygmos, the Enraged
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Eternal Witness
Spells: 27
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Life from the Loam
2 Flame Jab
3 Raven's Crime
4 Unburial Rites
4 Lingering Souls
2 Mulch
4 Faithless Looting
2 Abrupt Decay