It could just be my misplays with Ajani, as I mentioned it was my first time piloting the list. I'll chuck him back in again for now.
I prefer Remand when tempo is key and I just need to draw gas or more distuption to get there. VS GR Tron I board in Stoney Silence for Maps etc and Oblivion Stone. Also Mindcensors and Counterflux. Otherwise I personally would up the cryptic count too. Bouncing Wurmcoul or Karn is a decent attempt to recover if one gets through, then another cryptic or snapcaster as a hard counter. Tron can hold of a turn if they suspect Mana Leak to make up the extra 3 mana.
For Eldrazi, is our new m14 sac an attacking creature spell viable? Also hits opposing Geist and Bogles and Infect. Maybe not, but food for thought.
Nice report earlier, glad you had fun playing the deck. As far as Ajani and Elspeth go, I play a 2-of both in the main, and I've written up a few reports about them in the previous few pages if you're curious about another opinion.
As far as Celestial Flare goes, I'm not impressed. Remember that against Geist they can choose to sacrifice the Angel if you don't time it properly.
Once you get used to the mirror, you will notice v.clique en veredicts is where its at, those 2 cards are key.
I dont think we need celestial flare, we do run hard counters for hexproof guys, and i really would recommend to run verdicts for those match ups.
Explosives works wonders too, right now im in love with that card, it can hit almost anything.
People who say Cryptic Command is too slow but then are running Electrolyze especially as a 3x or 4x crack me up...
So you are telling me that essentially an extra blue mana for 3 extra ability choices versus 2 split damage is not worth it? Give me a break...
To say Cryptic doesn't fit in tempo when it is a hard counter that draws a card is just silly...
I love the spell snare -> remand -> geist -> removal -> cryptic games when going second...2 card draws means I probably have a removal as well to let geist swing through for pretty much the rest of the match...
People who say Cryptic Command is too slow but then are running Electrolyze especially as a 3x or 4x crack me up...
So you are telling me that essentially an extra blue mana for 3 extra ability choices versus 2 split damage is not worth it? Give me a break...
To say Cryptic doesn't fit in tempo when it is a hard counter that draws a card is just silly...
I love the spell snare -> remand -> geist -> removal -> cryptic games when going second...2 card draws means I probably have a removal as well to let geist swing through for pretty much the rest of the match...
Playing with Cryptics is a personal preference. I used to run 3 but ended up giving up on it. The reason is I want to keep my curve as low as possible because unlike the control version, you need to play spells during your turn. Also, the deck doesn't play a lot of card draw like think twice etc so you normally have 5-6 lands.
You can't compare a removal spell to a hard counter. They play different roles. Cryptic Command is a good card for decks that want to play the long game. Electrolyze is something you can fire off at the end of your opponent's turn even if they don't have anything on the board. It shortens the clock and takes out relevant blockers.
You might want to think it over before you laugh at another person and think you're smarter than the rest of us. Just because that card works for you doesn't mean it is the best option for everyone. We have different metagames and that will influence how you set up your main deck.
I dont think we need celestial flare, we do run hard counters for hexproof guys, and i really would recommend to run verdicts for those match ups.
Explosives works wonders too, right now im in love with that card, it can hit almost anything.
I like Celestial Flare because it fixes holes against Bogles (the only Modern-legal hard counters that can deal with Turn 1 Slippery Bogle are Mana Tithe and Disrupting Shoal, and neither are found in stock lists), Infect (needs the least fixing, IMO), and the uncounterable Thrun (swapping your sideboard Supreme Verdicts with Wrath of Gods comes with its own drawbacks). Bogles may be able to kill you before you draw your fourth land--at least Engineered Explosives is great against them.
Playing with Cryptics is a personal preference. I used to run 3 but ended up giving up on it. The reason is I want to keep my curve as low as possible because unlike the control version, you need to play spells during your turn. Also, the deck doesn't play a lot of card draw like think twice etc so you normally have 5-6 lands.
You can't compare a removal spell to a hard counter. They play different roles. Cryptic Command is a good card for decks that want to play the long game. Electrolyze is something you can fire off at the end of your opponent's turn even if they don't have anything on the board. It shortens the clock and takes out relevant blockers.
You might want to think it over before you laugh at another person and think you're smarter than the rest of us. Just because that card works for you doesn't mean it is the best option for everyone. We have different metagames and that will influence how you set up your main deck.
The point is, if you arn't playing against other counterspells and will tap out for geist, then you can't play electrolyze until turn 4 at the earliest, and I don't see how it is superior to cryptic command AT ALL at that point...yes they do different things, but your whole point about this deck lacking card draw is exactly why cryptic command is great...
I'm not arguing against electrolyze, I am arguing against things like mana leaks being put in in place of cryptic command...
I am yet to play one game where I was sad to see a cryptic command, and while there are different metagames, the reason cryptic is so awesome is, while expensive, there basically does not exist a deck against which it doesn't do many awesome things...
I understand to each their own, but people are turning this deck from midrange/tempo into straight out aggro, which I think is just silly...
You can't compare mana leak to cryptic either. Mana leak is needed to counter t2 or leaving little mana open. Cryptic is just the bomb. 4 and 3 respectively, period, I don't see much discussion needed on that...(remand and leak are just the same depending on preferences or if you play UWR Wafo Tapa vs the geist of saint win).
Yeah, I just see Remand as a 4x, and if you are running bolt and helix along with PtE and 2x electrolyze, that isn't many spots left...
So it seems to be a decision between snares and commands and mana leaks...
I'm using 4 Spellstutter Sprite & 4 Mutavaults along with Swords - Feast & Famine as well as Fire & Ice - and am having a lot of games ending up with me beating people down with these guys. Both of these guys carry the swords quite well and I'm not sure I've ever lost after hitting someone with Feast & Famine.
The point is, if you arn't playing against other counterspells and will tap out for geist, then you can't play electrolyze until turn 4 at the earliest, and I don't see how it is superior to cryptic command AT ALL at that point...yes they do different things, but your whole point about this deck lacking card draw is exactly why cryptic command is great...
I'm not arguing against electrolyze, I am arguing against things like mana leaks being put in in place of cryptic command...
I am yet to play one game where I was sad to see a cryptic command, and while there are different metagames, the reason cryptic is so awesome is, while expensive, there basically does not exist a deck against which it doesn't do many awesome things...
I understand to each their own, but people are turning this deck from midrange/tempo into straight out aggro, which I think is just silly...
I agree that cryptic is a good card. I acknowledge it is a good card, but I personally feel it doesn't belong in this deck.
I'm not sure why you're saying we are turning the deck into an aggro list. Have you ever checked the original list that Swazy used or the decks that made top 8/16 at GP Kansas? It ran 0 cryptics and a bunch of 2 mana counters. When they created the deck, they wanted the deck with cheap counters and a bunch of burn spells to back up geist. There are good players like Paul Cheon who ran Cryptics in his build, but if you look at his most recent update, the deck became a wrathless UWr Wafo Tapa control list that plays Snapcasters, Clique, and Restos as his main creatures. Don't you think you're the one who's starting to turn this deck into a control list?
But I respect that. Because at one point I used 2-3 Cryptics in the deck. When you have cryptics in the deck, you play it with mana leaks, remand and spell snare (meta dependent card). That is what I did before, but I ended up cutting Cryptics because I boarded them out a lot. Here are some reason why I think this card doesn't belong in the deck:
Counterwars - This deck, unlike the control version with think twices and revelations, the midrange build could not consistently hit land. There are games where I have the right amount of counters in hand but do not have the mana to cast it.
A lot of aggro in your meta - Where I play, the meta is pretty diverse, we have the usual Jund, UWR, Pod and combo players, but there are a lot more on aggro. Decks like GW hatebears, RG Zoo, and Affinity exist. If you face a lot of these decks, it is natural that you don't want 4 mana counters even if it is a catch all card.
Not a lot of Tron decks - Honestly speaking, this is the only MU where I wish I have cryptics in my main since they can blank out our counters fast. I ran 3 Cryptics main when my meta had a lot of Tron decks. But when it died down, I started cutting cryptics.
Guys chill, running or not running crptics doesnt define this deck, its a question of taste.
On more important maters, have you all seen the uwr control decks that are being played at worlds?
They are now playing a lot more like the midrange decks with such a high creature count for a control deck, running the full playset of tiago, 2-3 cliques and 2 restos.
I agree that cryptic is a good card. I acknowledge it is a good card, but I personally feel it doesn't belong in this deck.
I'm not sure why you're saying we are turning the deck into an aggro list. Have you ever checked the original list that Swazy used or the decks that made top 8/16 at GP Kansas? It ran 0 cryptics and a bunch of 2 mana counters. When they created the deck, they wanted the deck with cheap counters and a bunch of burn spells to back up geist. There are good players like Paul Cheon who ran Cryptics in his build, but if you look at his most recent update, the deck became a wrathless UWr Wafo Tapa control list that plays Snapcasters, Clique, and Restos as his main creatures. Don't you think you're the one who's starting to turn this deck into a control list?
But I respect that. Because at one point I used 2-3 Cryptics in the deck. When you have cryptics in the deck, you play it with mana leaks, remand and spell snare (meta dependent card). That is what I did before, but I ended up cutting Cryptics because I boarded them out a lot. Here are some reason why I think this card doesn't belong in the deck:
Counterwars - This deck, unlike the control version with think twices and revelations, the midrange build could not consistently hit land. There are games where I have the right amount of counters in hand but do not have the mana to cast it.
A lot of aggro in your meta - Where I play, the meta is pretty diverse, we have the usual Jund, UWR, Pod and combo players, but there are a lot more on aggro. Decks like GW hatebears, RG Zoo, and Affinity exist. If you face a lot of these decks, it is natural that you don't want 4 mana counters even if it is a catch all card.
Not a lot of Tron decks - Honestly speaking, this is the only MU where I wish I have cryptics in my main since they can blank out our counters fast. I ran 3 Cryptics main when my meta had a lot of Tron decks. But when it died down, I started cutting cryptics.
You bring up a lot of good point in this post in a very respectful way. I guess it is just a different way of seeing this deck IS the truth...
When you have 3x Vendilion, people running Ajani, and things like that, it just seems so controly to me...
I can totally see the value in cutting things like cryptic for quicker options, I just like the versatility of cryptic to let it go so easily...
And while people think that running cryptic or not running cryptic is just a taste or metagame thing, I think it is the biggest difference that warrants discussion in competitive metagame...It totally speaks to the different flavors of this deck and is a huuuuuuuge difference positively or negatively depending on perspective.
The future of this deck will be do you go more control or less, and Ajani/Cryptic versus other options to me is central to that discussion...
You bring up a lot of good point in this post in a very respectful way. I guess it is just a different way of seeing this deck IS the truth...
When you have 3x Vendilion, people running Ajani, and things like that, it just seems so controly to me...
I can totally see the value in cutting things like cryptic for quicker options, I just like the versatility of cryptic to let it go so easily...
And while people think that running cryptic or not running cryptic is just a taste or metagame thing, I think it is the biggest difference that warrants discussion in competitive metagame...It totally speaks to the different flavors of this deck and is a huuuuuuuge difference positively or negatively depending on perspective.
The future of this deck will be do you go more control or less, and Ajani/Cryptic versus other options to me is central to that discussion...
Deciding which cards to play with really affects how the deck will work. The way I see it, UWR has 3 different versions:
UWR Control - We have the traditional control list that plays with Wrath effects, more counters and a lot of burn spells.
UWR Midrange - The Midrange variant that plays with more creatures.. Geist, Clique and and Resto.. they play with cheap counter magic and all they want to do is to be able to protect their guys and burn you out.
And the last one would be players that want to be in the middle of the two. These guys want the best of both worlds. Having good cards like Geist, Cryptics and to some extend PWs like Ajani and Elspeth
Just to add, when I was using GP Kansas as reference, I was actually thinking of GP Portland, which was the last time the Midrange build placed.
I happen to be one of the guys that want to end the game quickly. I really wish I could still play cryptics profitably since I got them the moment MMA came out. I've played against a lot of Jund and sometimes Pod decks. And in my experience, whenever the Jund deck plays their disruption I wanted as many 2 mana counters as possible so I can conunter their follow up cards like Tarmo and Liliana. This is why Cryptics came off my list. Had it been another 2 mana counter I didn't have to worry about them. Now my cryptics are sitting in my binder and I am not happy about it. Against Pod, you'll want as much removal as possible and some other hate cards like Stony Silence and Surgical Extraction. So there, I also boarded them out vs Pod.
I know for some Cliques feels controlling, but I personally feel it is a must have in the deck because it lets you decide your next few moves and at the same time plays as a safety net before you play your Geist. On Ajani, it's definitely a good card, but I'm playing restoration angels in its place.
Right now, I am comfortable with 4x Remand and a 2/1 split of Mana Leak and Izzet Charm. If I need more counters, then that's the time I bring in Counterflux and Negate/Dispel.
Regardless of our card choices, I believe we all agree that the core of the deck would be Snaps, Geist, Cliques, the burn spells and counters. It is up to you if you want to add Cryptics and PWs like Ajani V or Elspeth.
Imo in that last sentence you should switch Geist for Cryptic, the rest seemed correct.
Just look at the World's decks, even if it's not a full metagame. Yes, there is a wide extent of gameplay timing (aggrocontrol to midrange to control) that the deck can encompass and depending on which you want to play you'll cut certain things. The unremovable core would be:
I was just saying a no cryptic build only makes sense to me playing aggrocontrol because you don't want to excede your curve so much. But then, switch collonades for mutavaults and spellstutters or something.
I chose to cut cryptics not because it is too high for the curve, but because it costs 4 which makes it harder to protect geist when you put him into play. You want to protect him as much as you can, because your opponent will try his best to find ways to kill Geist before you untap. The deck that you are talking about is a hybrid build that was played in Worlds. It plays the long game and has cards like Think Twice, Sphinx Rev and Cryptic Commands. Imo, that's a modified UWR Wafo Tapa Control list. I can see in your sig that you are playing UWR control. Just because the Geist deck and UWR control shares a lot of cards doesn't mean it has the same game plan, which is why I didn't mention Cryptic Command as one of it's core cards. Not all UWR midrange lists play with Cryptics.
I think we're not communicating properly here. When I said I want cheaper counters, it doesn't mean I have to drop Colonades entirely, since that is the deck's alternate finisher. And if ever I'll have a change of heart and start playing a real tempo list (which is not even good right now because we don't have good library manipulation cards like ponder) with delvers, I'd think of cards like Seachrome Coast and Moorland Haunt before playing Mutavaults. Having several colorless manlands in a 3 color decks means I will lose consistency. Which is why you only limit yourself to 2 colorless nonbasics in a 25 lander deck
Mutavault + Spellstutter - these are interesting cards, but I have no plans on switching to fairies. I've seen UR Fairies lists that runs delver, with a lot of counters and burn.
I'm sorry to say this, but without the deck's core card: Bitterblossom, I won't even consider running something like that. We don't have enough fairies to get value out of sprite, and activating a mutavault for the sake of countering a 2 mana spell in a meta filled with lightning bolts is something I don't want to do.
I'm the first advocate of the faeries deck trust me (in my sig as well), my suggestion wasn't to play UR faeries, which is an entirely different deck, but mutavaults + sss in a more aggrocontrol orientated build isn't that insane.
I'm still not convinced to run SSS because you need more fairies if you want to counter cards with CMC 2 and up. Most of the time, it's just counter target spell with CMC of 1. We have mutavaults to increase the count, but most of the deck that I play with has red. I just don't like the idea of getting 2 for 1'd when they play a 2 drop and my mutavault gets bolted and SSS just became a useless 1/1. If this format was legacy, it's probably alright to have SSS even if you don't have other fairies aside from Cliques since most of the decks play with a lot of 1 drops.
I do play UWR control...now. I started with the first incarnation of caw go, then the UW restoration deck with blade splicers and stuff. I got to play Cloudshift at one tourney to some success. Then I added red once my budget allowed it, 4 geists etc, i.e. geist of saint win. If i'm talking about this deck I am so, not talking about UWR Wafo or control variants. I don't even own Revelations yet anyway, and I don't use think twice in my build, I'm testing 1 isochron scepter, 1 gideon 1 elspeth 1 ajani, and the rest of the core.
PWs are great. But the deck doesn't have a lot of space for it. If you are playing with a lot of counters and the usual number of burn spells in the deck (bolt, helix, electrolyze), it sounds like you added those PWs in place of V Cliques. If that's the case, imo, that is no longer a midrange build but more of a control build since your game plan seems like you want to control the board as much as possible, which makes sense why you want Cryptics in your build. If I will run cryptic commands in my deck, I would max it out and take out GoST completely and play the deck Fairies style.
Already running mana leaks and spell snares depending on the version, you have protection to play geist + protect that same turn if you so need, but you don't most of the time. If you play geist and untap t4 you have cryptic mana which serves best than anything to tap, counter or bounce whatever interfers, and even cantrips or gets you a 2x1 tempo-wise (tap bounce if it's the best option). I don't think it needs cutting for the problem you're posing, at least not to 0 copies.
I play against a lot of Jund decks. The reason why I want all of my counters to cost 2 or less is because I want to increase the chance of countering a turn 2 or 3 liliana of the veil. I had a lot of matches where they drop lilly but couldn't cast cryptic because I only have 2-3 mana in play. Another reason is I want to increase my chances of playing geist on turn 5 with a 2 mana counter in hand. It is not that I don't respect the power of Cryptic. I know how good it is and saw how it wrecked standard with fairies. I could always add cryptics in addition to my counters, but I don't have a lot of space left and I prefer to run with more creatures so I can apply more pressure.
As per colorless sources, I run 2 tectonics only, just as you said, in a 25 lander.
As per delver, again, that's just another deck and yes, seachromes do fit as a nice substitution to shocks to have a better chance vs aggro but only if your curve stops at 3.
I've never thought of substituting Seachromes for shocks. You play seachromes with shocklands in a typical delver deck. I mentioned fast duals because you were suggesting that I replace Colonades with Mutavaults.. which I feel is not right for a 3 color deck.
well, the point of spellstutter sprite in the ur delver deck is to have a hard counter for 1 and 2cmc removal when leak and remand stop being effective.
the geist deck doesn't need the full 4 cryptics. it aims to win before getting to the late game, when cryptic really shines. its more, "swing twice with geist, throw all the burn at them." that being said, there are currently bigger things than geist being played. i moved away from the resto build a long time ago, and haven't revisited it simply because i stopped playing the deck for no reason.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
the geist deck doesn't need the full 4 cryptics. it aims to win before getting to the late game, when cryptic really shines. its more, "swing twice with geist, throw all the burn at them." that being said, there are currently bigger things than geist being played. i moved away from the resto build a long time ago, and haven't revisited it simply because i stopped playing the deck for no reason.
Thank you for explaining it in detail. This is what I've been trying to tell Hammer-head The goal of the deck is to kill your opponent asap before we reach the long game. Colonades are just there as insurance in case things go wrong. This is the reason why I don't think Cryptic belongs in the deck.
well, the point of spellstutter sprite in the ur delver deck is to have a hard counter for 1 and 2cmc removal when leak and remand stop being effective.
Thanks for pointing that out. SSS is indeed a good card and will do a lot of work in the right deck.
PW's applied to UWR control, not Midrange. 4 snappies, 2 cliques, 2 restos, 1 geist, 3 pws, and the main core spells is my setup right now.
Tbh, your current build looks like an incomplete UWR Control build and you are trying to shift to Geist Midrange. I'm still clueless why you consider your version with 3 PWs and only 1 GoST as "midrange" when it is clearly a control variant. I find it very odd tbh. Not unless you are still in the process of getting 3 more geists and will eventually cut those PWs for it. Anyway, the bottom line is, as long as it works for you that's what matters most.
I was just saying a no cryptic build only makes sense to me playing aggrocontrol because you don't want to excede your curve so much. But then, switch collonades for mutavaults and spellstutters or something.
I'm not sure if I understood this correctly, but if you're saying that it is alright to cut your dual colored manlands for mutavaults in a 3 color deck... well, for the sake of testing, I will give it a shot, though I'm sure it will screw me up more than help me.
I'm just worried that with this type of configuration that you suggested... having 2 blue sources early game might even become a problem
Let's put an end to this. I don't see the point of continuing this argument. It is obvious that we see things differently and have our own style. I think we're better off talking about something else.
How can you say I consider my deck midrange if not 2 sentences before you just quoted myself saying it was control...
And no, my process is playing control not midrange, the geist is there as a redundancy.
As per geist deck, from "not needing the full 4" (germanturkey) to "should play 0" (cahoots) there's quite a difference. You're not swinging for lethal with geist until t 6, that's 2 turns later than cryptic is viable. hence not having a reason not to play it 1-2 copies as I've been saying. (even with burn, it's at least t5, in a dream case burning them early a lot could be t4, cryptic still taps the blockers or bounces whatever problem).
As per new strategies: I'm growing more and more in love with Sower against non bolt decks, but as with anything I'd like outside feedback to tell me I'm crazy if so.
Let's make it easier for us. You play your cryptics, I will play with 0. Thank you for reminding me how good Cryptic is, but no thanks, I won't play it. You can stop forcing your ideas to me and let's move on. I'm tired of having this back and forth argument because I know this is getting nowhere. Maybe it was my mistake for assuming you are play Midrange when you are posting in the UWr Midrange thread.
There's an actual UW/x Control thread if that's the direction of your deck. Even if you have singleton Geist for redundancy, that falls under the control category.
Yea I want to steer this conversation in a more productive direction. IF you play cryptic, is it too slow against decks like Affinity or RG aggro? Consider the rest of the shell, 4 bolts helices, 3 electrolyze, 3-4 path; that should keep you in it until turn 4 and get cryptic online. Personally, I play 3, and I think in these matchups I would board out 1 and drop to 2 to make sure I don't see that in the opener, but being able to fog an aggro deck and cantrip is theoretically good.
Yea I want to steer this conversation in a more productive direction. IF you play cryptic, is it too slow against decks like Affinity or RG aggro? Consider the rest of the shell, 4 bolts helices, 3 electrolyze, 3-4 path; that should keep you in it until turn 4 and get cryptic online. Personally, I play 3, and I think in these matchups I would board out 1 and drop to 2 to make sure I don't see that in the opener, but being able to fog an aggro deck and cantrip is theoretically good.
Thoughts, opinions?
This was my thought process as well, actually. This is the list I plan on playing.
I think we can run Cryptic Command and still be a midrange tempo deck. I don't think it's by any means required, and the triple blue may be difficult to get while still running Tectonic Edge, but I think it can work well in the deck. On that subject, how necessary is Tectonic Edge now? Is it still mandatory, or could more color fixing or something else be run in its place? I've also been considering Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep as a second Eiganjo Castle. No, it's not as good as Castle (not even close, really), but it could work to protect Geist and Clique in combat when we don't draw Castle. It is a color producing land, so including it wouldn't be a tremendous strain.
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Currently playing:
In Modern:
:symu::symw::symr: Holy Rollers (Geist Tempo)
Last I checked, people can play more than one deck. Even more when those two share around 45/60 cards and maybe more. Which I did say earlier, I'm thinking you don't read my posts as thorowly or I just explained myself utterly wrong. To clarify, you asked about my deck and I answered that, in no way did I ask for opinions on my control deck since I would (and have) do so in the corresponding topic. Here, talking about Geist, I'd play 3 cryptics because I'm me, but in a general term, 1-2 seems right, period. Do what you want with your own deck but don't say I'm forcing anything considering the arguments given.
First of all, nobody is stopping you from playing more than one deck. I only asked about your deck to check if we are on the same page, and if we are really playing with the same archetype. Apparently, we are not and this is why I tried to end the conversation by asking you that we end this argument because it is pointless. You kept coming back so I am under the impression that you want me to acknowledge your ideas first before we stop this nonsense.
I did reference the UW/x Control thread because you were asking things about if Sower would be good in your control deck, and I thought that if you are posting at the right thread since most of the guys there are very experienced with control version.
So now, for the 3rd time, let's stop this so we can move on. We can talk about something else if you are still interested.
Nice report earlier, glad you had fun playing the deck. As far as Ajani and Elspeth go, I play a 2-of both in the main, and I've written up a few reports about them in the previous few pages if you're curious about another opinion.
As far as Celestial Flare goes, I'm not impressed. Remember that against Geist they can choose to sacrifice the Angel if you don't time it properly.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
I dont think we need celestial flare, we do run hard counters for hexproof guys, and i really would recommend to run verdicts for those match ups.
Explosives works wonders too, right now im in love with that card, it can hit almost anything.
So you are telling me that essentially an extra blue mana for 3 extra ability choices versus 2 split damage is not worth it? Give me a break...
To say Cryptic doesn't fit in tempo when it is a hard counter that draws a card is just silly...
I love the spell snare -> remand -> geist -> removal -> cryptic games when going second...2 card draws means I probably have a removal as well to let geist swing through for pretty much the rest of the match...
Playing with Cryptics is a personal preference. I used to run 3 but ended up giving up on it. The reason is I want to keep my curve as low as possible because unlike the control version, you need to play spells during your turn. Also, the deck doesn't play a lot of card draw like think twice etc so you normally have 5-6 lands.
You can't compare a removal spell to a hard counter. They play different roles. Cryptic Command is a good card for decks that want to play the long game. Electrolyze is something you can fire off at the end of your opponent's turn even if they don't have anything on the board. It shortens the clock and takes out relevant blockers.
You might want to think it over before you laugh at another person and think you're smarter than the rest of us. Just because that card works for you doesn't mean it is the best option for everyone. We have different metagames and that will influence how you set up your main deck.
I like Celestial Flare because it fixes holes against Bogles (the only Modern-legal hard counters that can deal with Turn 1 Slippery Bogle are Mana Tithe and Disrupting Shoal, and neither are found in stock lists), Infect (needs the least fixing, IMO), and the uncounterable Thrun (swapping your sideboard Supreme Verdicts with Wrath of Gods comes with its own drawbacks). Bogles may be able to kill you before you draw your fourth land--at least Engineered Explosives is great against them.
The point is, if you arn't playing against other counterspells and will tap out for geist, then you can't play electrolyze until turn 4 at the earliest, and I don't see how it is superior to cryptic command AT ALL at that point...yes they do different things, but your whole point about this deck lacking card draw is exactly why cryptic command is great...
I'm not arguing against electrolyze, I am arguing against things like mana leaks being put in in place of cryptic command...
I am yet to play one game where I was sad to see a cryptic command, and while there are different metagames, the reason cryptic is so awesome is, while expensive, there basically does not exist a deck against which it doesn't do many awesome things...
I understand to each their own, but people are turning this deck from midrange/tempo into straight out aggro, which I think is just silly...
Yeah, I just see Remand as a 4x, and if you are running bolt and helix along with PtE and 2x electrolyze, that isn't many spots left...
So it seems to be a decision between snares and commands and mana leaks...
I agree that cryptic is a good card. I acknowledge it is a good card, but I personally feel it doesn't belong in this deck.
I'm not sure why you're saying we are turning the deck into an aggro list. Have you ever checked the original list that Swazy used or the decks that made top 8/16 at GP Kansas? It ran 0 cryptics and a bunch of 2 mana counters. When they created the deck, they wanted the deck with cheap counters and a bunch of burn spells to back up geist. There are good players like Paul Cheon who ran Cryptics in his build, but if you look at his most recent update, the deck became a wrathless UWr Wafo Tapa control list that plays Snapcasters, Clique, and Restos as his main creatures. Don't you think you're the one who's starting to turn this deck into a control list?
But I respect that. Because at one point I used 2-3 Cryptics in the deck. When you have cryptics in the deck, you play it with mana leaks, remand and spell snare (meta dependent card). That is what I did before, but I ended up cutting Cryptics because I boarded them out a lot. Here are some reason why I think this card doesn't belong in the deck:
Counterwars - This deck, unlike the control version with think twices and revelations, the midrange build could not consistently hit land. There are games where I have the right amount of counters in hand but do not have the mana to cast it.
A lot of aggro in your meta - Where I play, the meta is pretty diverse, we have the usual Jund, UWR, Pod and combo players, but there are a lot more on aggro. Decks like GW hatebears, RG Zoo, and Affinity exist. If you face a lot of these decks, it is natural that you don't want 4 mana counters even if it is a catch all card.
Not a lot of Tron decks - Honestly speaking, this is the only MU where I wish I have cryptics in my main since they can blank out our counters fast. I ran 3 Cryptics main when my meta had a lot of Tron decks. But when it died down, I started cutting cryptics.
On more important maters, have you all seen the uwr control decks that are being played at worlds?
They are now playing a lot more like the midrange decks with such a high creature count for a control deck, running the full playset of tiago, 2-3 cliques and 2 restos.
You bring up a lot of good point in this post in a very respectful way. I guess it is just a different way of seeing this deck IS the truth...
When you have 3x Vendilion, people running Ajani, and things like that, it just seems so controly to me...
I can totally see the value in cutting things like cryptic for quicker options, I just like the versatility of cryptic to let it go so easily...
And while people think that running cryptic or not running cryptic is just a taste or metagame thing, I think it is the biggest difference that warrants discussion in competitive metagame...It totally speaks to the different flavors of this deck and is a huuuuuuuge difference positively or negatively depending on perspective.
The future of this deck will be do you go more control or less, and Ajani/Cryptic versus other options to me is central to that discussion...
Deciding which cards to play with really affects how the deck will work. The way I see it, UWR has 3 different versions:
UWR Control - We have the traditional control list that plays with Wrath effects, more counters and a lot of burn spells.
UWR Midrange - The Midrange variant that plays with more creatures.. Geist, Clique and and Resto.. they play with cheap counter magic and all they want to do is to be able to protect their guys and burn you out.
And the last one would be players that want to be in the middle of the two. These guys want the best of both worlds. Having good cards like Geist, Cryptics and to some extend PWs like Ajani and Elspeth
Just to add, when I was using GP Kansas as reference, I was actually thinking of GP Portland, which was the last time the Midrange build placed.
I happen to be one of the guys that want to end the game quickly. I really wish I could still play cryptics profitably since I got them the moment MMA came out. I've played against a lot of Jund and sometimes Pod decks. And in my experience, whenever the Jund deck plays their disruption I wanted as many 2 mana counters as possible so I can conunter their follow up cards like Tarmo and Liliana. This is why Cryptics came off my list. Had it been another 2 mana counter I didn't have to worry about them. Now my cryptics are sitting in my binder and I am not happy about it. Against Pod, you'll want as much removal as possible and some other hate cards like Stony Silence and Surgical Extraction. So there, I also boarded them out vs Pod.
I know for some Cliques feels controlling, but I personally feel it is a must have in the deck because it lets you decide your next few moves and at the same time plays as a safety net before you play your Geist. On Ajani, it's definitely a good card, but I'm playing restoration angels in its place.
Right now, I am comfortable with 4x Remand and a 2/1 split of Mana Leak and Izzet Charm. If I need more counters, then that's the time I bring in Counterflux and Negate/Dispel.
Regardless of our card choices, I believe we all agree that the core of the deck would be Snaps, Geist, Cliques, the burn spells and counters. It is up to you if you want to add Cryptics and PWs like Ajani V or Elspeth.
I chose to cut cryptics not because it is too high for the curve, but because it costs 4 which makes it harder to protect geist when you put him into play. You want to protect him as much as you can, because your opponent will try his best to find ways to kill Geist before you untap. The deck that you are talking about is a hybrid build that was played in Worlds. It plays the long game and has cards like Think Twice, Sphinx Rev and Cryptic Commands. Imo, that's a modified UWR Wafo Tapa Control list. I can see in your sig that you are playing UWR control. Just because the Geist deck and UWR control shares a lot of cards doesn't mean it has the same game plan, which is why I didn't mention Cryptic Command as one of it's core cards. Not all UWR midrange lists play with Cryptics.
I think we're not communicating properly here. When I said I want cheaper counters, it doesn't mean I have to drop Colonades entirely, since that is the deck's alternate finisher. And if ever I'll have a change of heart and start playing a real tempo list (which is not even good right now because we don't have good library manipulation cards like ponder) with delvers, I'd think of cards like Seachrome Coast and Moorland Haunt before playing Mutavaults. Having several colorless manlands in a 3 color decks means I will lose consistency. Which is why you only limit yourself to 2 colorless nonbasics in a 25 lander deck
Mutavault + Spellstutter - these are interesting cards, but I have no plans on switching to fairies. I've seen UR Fairies lists that runs delver, with a lot of counters and burn.
I'm sorry to say this, but without the deck's core card: Bitterblossom, I won't even consider running something like that. We don't have enough fairies to get value out of sprite, and activating a mutavault for the sake of countering a 2 mana spell in a meta filled with lightning bolts is something I don't want to do.
I'm still not convinced to run SSS because you need more fairies if you want to counter cards with CMC 2 and up. Most of the time, it's just counter target spell with CMC of 1. We have mutavaults to increase the count, but most of the deck that I play with has red. I just don't like the idea of getting 2 for 1'd when they play a 2 drop and my mutavault gets bolted and SSS just became a useless 1/1. If this format was legacy, it's probably alright to have SSS even if you don't have other fairies aside from Cliques since most of the decks play with a lot of 1 drops.
PWs are great. But the deck doesn't have a lot of space for it. If you are playing with a lot of counters and the usual number of burn spells in the deck (bolt, helix, electrolyze), it sounds like you added those PWs in place of V Cliques. If that's the case, imo, that is no longer a midrange build but more of a control build since your game plan seems like you want to control the board as much as possible, which makes sense why you want Cryptics in your build. If I will run cryptic commands in my deck, I would max it out and take out GoST completely and play the deck Fairies style.
I play against a lot of Jund decks. The reason why I want all of my counters to cost 2 or less is because I want to increase the chance of countering a turn 2 or 3 liliana of the veil. I had a lot of matches where they drop lilly but couldn't cast cryptic because I only have 2-3 mana in play. Another reason is I want to increase my chances of playing geist on turn 5 with a 2 mana counter in hand. It is not that I don't respect the power of Cryptic. I know how good it is and saw how it wrecked standard with fairies. I could always add cryptics in addition to my counters, but I don't have a lot of space left and I prefer to run with more creatures so I can apply more pressure.
I've never thought of substituting Seachromes for shocks. You play seachromes with shocklands in a typical delver deck. I mentioned fast duals because you were suggesting that I replace Colonades with Mutavaults.. which I feel is not right for a 3 color deck.
I appreciate all of your advice and I know your intention is to help, but I just don't see GoST and Cryptic in the same deck.
the geist deck doesn't need the full 4 cryptics. it aims to win before getting to the late game, when cryptic really shines. its more, "swing twice with geist, throw all the burn at them." that being said, there are currently bigger things than geist being played. i moved away from the resto build a long time ago, and haven't revisited it simply because i stopped playing the deck for no reason.
Thank you for explaining it in detail. This is what I've been trying to tell Hammer-head The goal of the deck is to kill your opponent asap before we reach the long game. Colonades are just there as insurance in case things go wrong. This is the reason why I don't think Cryptic belongs in the deck.
Thanks for pointing that out. SSS is indeed a good card and will do a lot of work in the right deck.
Tbh, your current build looks like an incomplete UWR Control build and you are trying to shift to Geist Midrange. I'm still clueless why you consider your version with 3 PWs and only 1 GoST as "midrange" when it is clearly a control variant. I find it very odd tbh. Not unless you are still in the process of getting 3 more geists and will eventually cut those PWs for it. Anyway, the bottom line is, as long as it works for you that's what matters most.
I only reacted that way because you said this:
I'm not sure if I understood this correctly, but if you're saying that it is alright to cut your dual colored manlands for mutavaults in a 3 color deck... well, for the sake of testing, I will give it a shot, though I'm sure it will screw me up more than help me.
I'm just worried that with this type of configuration that you suggested... having 2 blue sources early game might even become a problem
Let's put an end to this. I don't see the point of continuing this argument. It is obvious that we see things differently and have our own style. I think we're better off talking about something else.
Let's make it easier for us. You play your cryptics, I will play with 0. Thank you for reminding me how good Cryptic is, but no thanks, I won't play it. You can stop forcing your ideas to me and let's move on. I'm tired of having this back and forth argument because I know this is getting nowhere. Maybe it was my mistake for assuming you are play Midrange when you are posting in the UWr Midrange thread.
There's an actual UW/x Control thread if that's the direction of your deck. Even if you have singleton Geist for redundancy, that falls under the control category.
Thoughts, opinions?
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
This was my thought process as well, actually. This is the list I plan on playing.
4 Celestial Colonade
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Plains
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Baneslayer Angel
Instants/Sorceries: 22
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
4 Remand
3 Electrolyze
3 Cryptic Command
I think we can run Cryptic Command and still be a midrange tempo deck. I don't think it's by any means required, and the triple blue may be difficult to get while still running Tectonic Edge, but I think it can work well in the deck. On that subject, how necessary is Tectonic Edge now? Is it still mandatory, or could more color fixing or something else be run in its place? I've also been considering Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep as a second Eiganjo Castle. No, it's not as good as Castle (not even close, really), but it could work to protect Geist and Clique in combat when we don't draw Castle. It is a color producing land, so including it wouldn't be a tremendous strain.
In Modern:
:symu::symw::symr: Holy Rollers (Geist Tempo)
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First of all, nobody is stopping you from playing more than one deck. I only asked about your deck to check if we are on the same page, and if we are really playing with the same archetype. Apparently, we are not and this is why I tried to end the conversation by asking you that we end this argument because it is pointless. You kept coming back so I am under the impression that you want me to acknowledge your ideas first before we stop this nonsense.
I did reference the UW/x Control thread because you were asking things about if Sower would be good in your control deck, and I thought that if you are posting at the right thread since most of the guys there are very experienced with control version.
So now, for the 3rd time, let's stop this so we can move on. We can talk about something else if you are still interested.