Discard spells are absolutely abysmal in grindy matchups. They just don't do anything when you're in top deck mode, and the game will certainly get there. I disagree that a good Jund pilot has an advantage, I really do believe that the matchup is 50/50. That isn't to say that they can't have an advantage sometimes. I've played Dragonlord Ojutai previously and it was very medium. The end result didn't really measure up to the cost put into the card.
We'll agree to disagree. For me the worst possible way a game vs Jund can start is with him taking my Geist or Snap with a Kozilek or my Elspeth or Resto with a Thoughtseize. It's like you get one of your arms cut off even before the fight starts. Sometimes you just won't recover from that turn 1 discard spell, especially when they land a Lily. The fact discard spells are bad topdecks doesn't change that, many cards are bad topdecks but are still worth playing (in our case for example, Spell Snare). Also, that problem gets mitigated with Lily's +1. And again, that t1 discard spell is backbreaking, they know all we've got and get to take our best card. 1 card for your best card is always a good bargain.
I also think the MU is close to 50-50 but slightly unfavorable, we can't beat their good draws while they can beat ours. Turn 1 discard into turn 2 Goyf into turn 3 Lily will almost always result in a loss. Kalitas just made things worse for us, yet another threat we can only beat with Path.
Need more testing on Ojutai, but up until now he doesn't look that bad. Also, Slayer's Stronghold is a powerful card on its own, won me a couple games without Ojutai.
Discard spells are absolutely abysmal in grindy matchups. They just don't do anything when you're in top deck mode, and the game will certainly get there. I disagree that a good Jund pilot has an advantage, I really do believe that the matchup is 50/50. That isn't to say that they can't have an advantage sometimes. I've played Dragonlord Ojutai previously and it was very medium. The end result didn't really measure up to the cost put into the card.
We'll agree to disagree. For me the worst possible way a game vs Jund can start is with him taking my Geist or Snap with a Kozilek or my Elspeth or Resto with a Thoughtseize. It's like you get one of your arms cut off even before the fight starts. Sometimes you just won't recover from that turn 1 discard spell, especially when they land a Lily. The fact discard spells are bad topdecks doesn't change that, many cards are bad topdecks but are still worth playing (in our case for example, Spell Snare). Also, that problem gets mitigated with Lily's +1. And again, that t1 discard spell is backbreaking, they know all we've got and get to take our best card. 1 card for your best card is always a good bargain.
I also think the MU is close to 50-50 but slightly unfavorable, we can't beat their good draws while they can beat ours. Turn 1 discard into turn 2 Goyf into turn 3 Lily will almost always result in a loss. Kalitas just made things worse for us, yet another threat we can only beat with Path.
Need more testing on Ojutai, but up until now he doesn't look that bad. Also, Slayer's Stronghold is a powerful card on its own, won me a couple games without Ojutai.
I haven't faced Jund yet unfortunately. In theory though spell Queller seems really good.
Sorry, but not really. They're a spot removal deck. They'll almost always destroy your Queller and get the card back. Geist is leagues better as it forces them to have Lily.
Or a bob... or a goyf. or any creature that can block it ._.
So far in play testing: removal heavy decks do not make spell queller any less relevant.
I've beaten suicide zoo, Grixis Delver, etc. and the cards has felt amazing.
I'll be packing x4 in any deck I play, whether it's Jeskai Nahiri or Jeskai flash.
I appreciated your testing with Spell Queller but it seems you don't really understand what JeskaiFlash wants to do if you're so adamant to run 4 Quellers instead of Geists. I don't even see the logic behind it, it doesn't really help you with our bad MU. It doesn't hit anything relevant from Tron except Oblivion Stone, doesn't hit Ad Nauseam or any other big mana spells which we usually have troubles with if we don't counter. It doesn't force Jund to have a specific answer like Geist and with 2 power is a really slow clock.
It has evasion I grant him that, but we are a deck that can give pseudo evasion in the form of Restos or Eiganjo and not to mention we're packing a hefty number of spot removal options. I wish you all the best with your testing but I just don't see it unfortunately.
More like Geist it would be interesting to try Queller instead of Clique if you're so determined to play this card but Clique is such a powerful spell I just don't see it.
Clique and Spell Queller (thusfar) work great together. They preform vastly different roles.
Jeskai Flash wants to play the tempo game. With this Spell Queller helps immensely.
Also: it does hit several relevant things in tron. Stops their card search. I'll give you Ad Nauseum; however, it does hit lotus (which they can not really win without).
Two damage often is enough to kill a person in 3-4 turns, especially when paired with our other threats (snapcaster, burn, angle).
The thing is, against those decks, you don't have 3-4 turns, because they can just draw runner-runner and kill you.
Then Geist isn't going to save you either.
If you can't survive in 3-4 turns, chances are your hand is 100% non-interactive. Which means you are going to loose. Regardless of whether you have Geist or not.
Sorry, but not really. They're a spot removal deck. They'll almost always destroy your Queller and get the card back. Geist is leagues better as it forces them to have Lily.
Or a bob... or a goyf. or any creature that can block it ._.
So far in play testing: removal heavy decks do not make spell queller any less relevant.
I've beaten suicide zoo, Grixis Delver, etc. and the cards has felt amazing.
I'll be packing x4 in any deck I play, whether it's Jeskai Nahiri or Jeskai flash.
No, Bob and Goyf aren't necessarily good answers to Geist. We have spot removal to clear the way. The problem really is Lily. Turn 3 Geist answered by a Lily is a huge blowout. Not only she will eat our Geist, but will also stick there, forcing us to Bolt her. So takes care of Geist and 2 for 1 us. Such a powerful play Jund has against us and unfortunately with 4x Lily they can pull it off pretty often.
I see you're very enthousiastic about Queller, but we need to be rational. There's a reason if this deck is also called Jeskai Geist. It's the card that allows us to steal games we otherwise couldn't win. So, honestly: tell me which MUs are improved by replacing Geist with Queller.
So far: Suicide Zoo, Burn, and other aggro decks.
Though testing is still preliminary.
I struggle to believe that the burn matchup is better with Spell Queller. They can just Bolt it and move on, and the Geist clock is still better there.
Perhaps he is taking the bolt out of their hand? Seems bad to me, but assuming an opponent only has 1 removal in hand it does block them killing your other stuff.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pauper: UB Wight Phantasm RB Burn UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Like what? Geist has hexproof, and protecting Snaps is not exactly our main goal. Resto already survives Bolts and Decays. Anyway this is not the point. The point is on the one hand you have a fast, resilient clock this deck is built around called Geist of Saint Traft. On the other you have a 2/3 flash flier that counters a low-cost spell, but then dies to a stiff breeze and gives the card back. It's obvious the second card serves a different purpose and can't replace the first one.
I'm not saying it's a good idea, but if I absolutely wanted to play Queller, I'd rather play him in some of the slots reserved for counterspells like Leak, Remand and Snare. He is more similar to Mana Leak or Remand than he is to Geist of Saint Traft, which again, does completely different things.
Really? I thought UWr was a tempo deck based around flash synergies. Hence its post popular name UWr flash. Unless I'm mistaken and UWr flash is a different archetype than UWr midrange.
In most MUs this deck plays like a midrange deck rather than a tempo deck. By the way UWr flash is not the most popular name of the deck. It's usually called either UWr Midrange or UWr Geist. It can act as a tempo deck though. But I don't get how this definition issue is relevant on whether to replace Geist with Queller. Anyway way this deck is not, by any means, a pure tempo deck like say UR Delver. We do not run any Vapor Snags or Gitaxian Probes here.
Perhaps a separate archetype should be created? Uwr Flash has always treated Geist as an expendable card depending on the meta.
I always viewed UWr Flash and UWr midrange within the same archtype. Am I wrong?
In most MUs this deck plays like a midrange deck rather than a tempo deck. By the way UWr flash is not the most popular name of the deck. It's usually called either UWr Midrange or UWr Geist. It can act as a tempo deck though. But I don't get how this definition issue is relevant on whether to replace Geist with Queller. Anyway way this deck is not, by any means, a pure tempo deck like say UR Delver. We do not run any Vapor Snags or Gitaxian Probes here.
Perhaps a separate archetype should be created? Uwr Flash has always treated Geist as an expendable card depending on the meta.
I always viewed UWr Flash and UWr midrange within the same archtype. Am I wrong?
Here's the thing, the link you posted, despite being called UWr flash, is clearly an old UWr Control decklist with 26 lands and a singleton Sphinx's Revelation. Doing a quick google search, while a few Geist midrange decks show up, the name UWr Flash is actually used mostly for the older iterations of UWr Control.
I have been running a RG Ponza deck for a couple months now and despite how well it's doing for me as my competitive deck I am branching out to the Jeskai way to play something different. I've read back about 30 pages and ha entry seen any Delver lists that I can remember. I'm wanting to run Mana Tithe as a three of to protect it early and I think is a really great card for a tempo deck. While I haven't played UWR Geist I have play tested about 60 matches against the delver version. I can post the list I want to run later this weekend. I just wanted to hear some thoughts on Mana Tithe and particularly it's interaction with Remand and Snapcaster if anyone has used it.
I have been running a RG Ponza deck for a couple months now and despite how well it's doing for me as my competitive deck I am branching out to the Jeskai way to play something different. I've read back about 30 pages and ha entry seen any Delver lists that I can remember. I'm wanting to run Mana Tithe as a three of to protect it early and I think is a really great card for a tempo deck. While I haven't played UWR Geist I have play tested about 60 matches against the delver version. I can post the list I want to run later this weekend. I just wanted to hear some thoughts on Mana Tithe and particularly it's interaction with Remand and Snapcaster if anyone has used it.
I just got back into modern and I found out about Jeskai geist. I really like the deck but I got a major problem. I dont have the the money to buy all the deck.(I live in Canada and the price of mtg card are 30% higher.(scalding tar = 110$ canadian).I can pretty much buy everything , exept the big peace that I need to cut. Snapcaster is expensive but i dont think i can build jeskai geist without him. Celestial colonade can be a 2 of for now(I guess).I made a deck and Id like to have comment on it.
I just got back into modern and I found out about Jeskai geist. I really like the deck but I got a major problem. I dont have the the money to buy all the deck.(I live in Canada and the price of mtg card are 30% higher.(scalding tar = 110$ canadian).I can pretty much buy everything , exept the big peace that I need to cut. Snapcaster is expensive but i dont think i can build jeskai geist without him. Celestial colonade can be a 2 of for now(I guess).I made a deck and Id like to have comment on it.
2 celestial colonnade is fine; in fact there are those who forgo 4 copies intentionally because Jeskai Geist has a lot of different win-cons and a lot of 1 mana spells to cast on curve. Having 4 snapcaster mage is a necessity however.
I just got back into modern and I found out about Jeskai geist. I really like the deck but I got a major problem. I dont have the the money to buy all the deck.(I live in Canada and the price of mtg card are 30% higher.(scalding tar = 110$ canadian).I can pretty much buy everything , exept the big peace that I need to cut. Snapcaster is expensive but i dont think i can build jeskai geist without him. Celestial colonade can be a 2 of for now(I guess).I made a deck and Id like to have comment on it.
Scalding tarn:
I want to be able to fetch every type of basic land with my fetch land. But with that setup , i can only draw islands and plain. I try to build 2 polluted, 2 bloodstained and 4 flooded. Result : I have 6 ways of getting an island , 2 ways of getting a mountain and 4 ways of getting a plain. That is why i choose to go with 4 bloodstained and 4 flooded, I than have 4 ways of getting every basic land. (I know i have my shock , but i know that blood moon is heavily played at my shop.
Clique:
I've never really played modern , but I don't find clique very good in the Main board. Let my explain , It's very good to be able to remove card from you opponent + getting a 3/1 flyer.(In instant speed) But the card is put in the bottom of the librarie. And he still get to draw afterward. I try the deck on Xmage and I clique the guys (who's was playing naya burn) at his draw step. He had guide + bolt. I take off is bolt so is next attack will deal only 2 damage. But by removing bolt , he drew atarka's command , dealing 5 more damage.
In some case , against combo , clique is very good , but vs common aggro match up I dont personally think clique is very good in MB. In the SB no question's ask
Now please , explain me why im wrong.
I would really like to have a better understanding of this card.
Wall of omen: It wasn't a replacement for clique , it's just because the meta a my shop is fast ( Zoo , burn , naya , tron , infect, merfolk)so i needed a good blocker on early turn. Plus this guys isn't a bad draw. For two mana you get to have a 0/4 blocker plus a card. Kitchen finks will go in SB but not in MB because his pretty bad late game and need something else than a weak body and two life. On early turn is good , but 1 more mana than wall.( And I understand that turn 3 is pretty much getting geist in play)
And for the price of the card, currently the Canadian dollar is 0.30$ less than the the US dollar. And the euro is 50% more. (1$ Canadian is 1.46 euro)
So building a modern deck is very expensive. Here a couple a staple card in Canadian money from a local shop.
(Buying from other country is pretty much the same with the conversion + shipping fee).
Scalding tarn:
I want to be able to fetch every type of basic land with my fetch land. But with that setup , i can only draw islands and plain. I try to build 2 polluted, 2 bloodstained and 4 flooded. Result : I have 6 ways of getting an island , 2 ways of getting a mountain and 4 ways of getting a plain. That is why i choose to go with 4 bloodstained and 4 flooded, I than have 4 ways of getting every basic land. (I know i have my shock , but i know that blood moon is heavily played at my shop.
Clique:
I've never really played modern , but I don't find clique very good in the Main board. Let my explain , It's very good to be able to remove card from you opponent + getting a 3/1 flyer.(In instant speed) But the card is put in the bottom of the librarie. And he still get to draw afterward. I try the deck on Xmage and I clique the guys (who's was playing naya burn) at his draw step. He had guide + bolt. I take off is bolt so is next attack will deal only 2 damage. But by removing bolt , he drew atarka's command , dealing 5 more damage.
In some case , against combo , clique is very good , but vs common aggro match up I dont personally think clique is very good in MB. In the SB no question's ask
Now please , explain me why im wrong.
I would really like to have a better understanding of this card.
Wall of omen: It wasn't a replacement for clique , it's just because the meta a my shop is fast ( Zoo , burn , naya , tron , infect, merfolk)so i needed a good blocker on early turn. Plus this guys isn't a bad draw. For two mana you get to have a 0/4 blocker plus a card. Kitchen finks will go in SB but not in MB because his pretty bad late game and need something else than a weak body and two life. On early turn is good , but 1 more mana than wall.( And I understand that turn 3 is pretty much getting geist in play)
And for the price of the card, currently the Canadian dollar is 0.30$ less than the the US dollar. And the euro is 50% more. (1$ Canadian is 1.46 euro)
So building a modern deck is very expensive. Here a couple a staple card in Canadian money from a local shop.
(Buying from other country is pretty much the same with the conversion + shipping fee).
But how important is getting the basic mountain? Blood moon is going to make your non basics into mountains anyways.
Clique is more about being a flash flying threat that lets you look at your opponent's hand than anything else imo. If you're meta is aggro heavy, Clique isn't the greatest no, but it does have its applications.
Wall of Omens is too defensive imo. You shouldn't need a good blocker early turns, you should be bolting/helixing/pathing their early aggression. Also, with only 2 colonnades, you are making your deck extremely threat light by running Wall instead of something that can actually attack. This is a midrange deck, not a control deck, you need the ability to be aggressive when the situation calls for it.
Because I cant buy the scalding tar (yet), I decided to choose fetch that can get me the same thing has if I had scalding tar.
Is my thinking good or im getting a downside by getting bloodstained over polluted?
Ill try clique (one of've?)
Because I cant buy the scalding tar (yet), I decided to choose fetch that can get me the same thing has if I had scalding tar.
Is my thinking good or im getting a downside by getting bloodstained over polluted?
Ill try clique (one of've?)
Being able to fetch basic island or even basic plains is a lot more important than fetching the basic mountain in the deck, especially if blood moon is common where you are. I'd say even windswept heath would be a better option than mire.
If you're going budget, I'd say you can wait on clique, I was simply trying to express my opinion on its value maindeck. I'd actually say getting the third restoration angel is more important. Overall I think you should ditch the walls and get the third resto and fill the last 2 slots with kitchen finks or possibly blade splicer. Maybe spell queller if budget allows. Otherwise for budget, deck looks fine.
I haven't faced Jund yet unfortunately. In theory though spell Queller seems really good.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Or a bob... or a goyf. or any creature that can block it ._.
So far in play testing: removal heavy decks do not make spell queller any less relevant.
I've beaten suicide zoo, Grixis Delver, etc. and the cards has felt amazing.
I'll be packing x4 in any deck I play, whether it's Jeskai Nahiri or Jeskai flash.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Clique and Spell Queller (thusfar) work great together. They preform vastly different roles.
Jeskai Flash wants to play the tempo game. With this Spell Queller helps immensely.
Also: it does hit several relevant things in tron. Stops their card search. I'll give you Ad Nauseum; however, it does hit lotus (which they can not really win without).
Two damage often is enough to kill a person in 3-4 turns, especially when paired with our other threats (snapcaster, burn, angle).
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
UW Control
UWR Geist
UWR Control
Then Geist isn't going to save you either.
If you can't survive in 3-4 turns, chances are your hand is 100% non-interactive. Which means you are going to loose. Regardless of whether you have Geist or not.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
So far: Suicide Zoo, Burn, and other aggro decks.
Though testing is still preliminary.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
UW Control
UWR Geist
UWR Control
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
Really? I thought UWr was a tempo deck based around flash synergies. Hence its post popular name UWr flash. Unless I'm mistaken and UWr flash is a different archetype than UWr midrange.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Perhaps a separate archetype should be created? Uwr Flash has always treated Geist as an expendable card depending on the meta.
I always viewed UWr Flash and UWr midrange within the same archtype. Am I wrong?
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/uwr-flash-in-modern/
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Commander
U Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
RG Zilortha, Strength Incarnate
WB Amalia Benavides Aguirre
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/592647-jeskai-prowess-tempo-the-jeskai-way?page=55
If you're looking to run Delver in Jeskai colors, I recommend looking at those two threads. UWr Geist is more of a midrange deck than a tempo deck.
Commander
U Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
RG Zilortha, Strength Incarnate
WB Amalia Benavides Aguirre
I just got back into modern and I found out about Jeskai geist. I really like the deck but I got a major problem. I dont have the the money to buy all the deck.(I live in Canada and the price of mtg card are 30% higher.(scalding tar = 110$ canadian).I can pretty much buy everything , exept the big peace that I need to cut. Snapcaster is expensive but i dont think i can build jeskai geist without him. Celestial colonade can be a 2 of for now(I guess).I made a deck and Id like to have comment on it.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/06-08-16-sAc-jeskai-geist/
Sry for my bad english , im french
2 celestial colonnade is fine; in fact there are those who forgo 4 copies intentionally because Jeskai Geist has a lot of different win-cons and a lot of 1 mana spells to cast on curve. Having 4 snapcaster mage is a necessity however.
just go on tcgplayer.com or ebay and buy from americans and have it shipped to your location
I want to be able to fetch every type of basic land with my fetch land. But with that setup , i can only draw islands and plain. I try to build 2 polluted, 2 bloodstained and 4 flooded. Result : I have 6 ways of getting an island , 2 ways of getting a mountain and 4 ways of getting a plain. That is why i choose to go with 4 bloodstained and 4 flooded, I than have 4 ways of getting every basic land. (I know i have my shock , but i know that blood moon is heavily played at my shop.
Clique:
I've never really played modern , but I don't find clique very good in the Main board. Let my explain , It's very good to be able to remove card from you opponent + getting a 3/1 flyer.(In instant speed) But the card is put in the bottom of the librarie. And he still get to draw afterward. I try the deck on Xmage and I clique the guys (who's was playing naya burn) at his draw step. He had guide + bolt. I take off is bolt so is next attack will deal only 2 damage. But by removing bolt , he drew atarka's command , dealing 5 more damage.
In some case , against combo , clique is very good , but vs common aggro match up I dont personally think clique is very good in MB. In the SB no question's ask
Now please , explain me why im wrong.
I would really like to have a better understanding of this card.
Wall of omen: It wasn't a replacement for clique , it's just because the meta a my shop is fast ( Zoo , burn , naya , tron , infect, merfolk)so i needed a good blocker on early turn. Plus this guys isn't a bad draw. For two mana you get to have a 0/4 blocker plus a card. Kitchen finks will go in SB but not in MB because his pretty bad late game and need something else than a weak body and two life. On early turn is good , but 1 more mana than wall.( And I understand that turn 3 is pretty much getting geist in play)
And for the price of the card, currently the Canadian dollar is 0.30$ less than the the US dollar. And the euro is 50% more. (1$ Canadian is 1.46 euro)
So building a modern deck is very expensive. Here a couple a staple card in Canadian money from a local shop.
(Buying from other country is pretty much the same with the conversion + shipping fee).
http://www.jeuxfaceaface.com/products/search?query=Tarmogoyf
http://www.jeuxfaceaface.com/products/search?query=Liliana of the Veil
http://www.jeuxfaceaface.com/products/search?query=Scalding Tarn
http://www.jeuxfaceaface.com/products/search?query=Vendilion Clique
http://www.jeuxfaceaface.com/products/search?query=Snapcaster Mage
Clique is more about being a flash flying threat that lets you look at your opponent's hand than anything else imo. If you're meta is aggro heavy, Clique isn't the greatest no, but it does have its applications.
Wall of Omens is too defensive imo. You shouldn't need a good blocker early turns, you should be bolting/helixing/pathing their early aggression. Also, with only 2 colonnades, you are making your deck extremely threat light by running Wall instead of something that can actually attack. This is a midrange deck, not a control deck, you need the ability to be aggressive when the situation calls for it.
Commander
U Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
RG Zilortha, Strength Incarnate
WB Amalia Benavides Aguirre
Is my thinking good or im getting a downside by getting bloodstained over polluted?
Ill try clique (one of've?)
And do you think my deck list is acceptable? http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/06-08-16-sAc-jeskai-geist/
If you're going budget, I'd say you can wait on clique, I was simply trying to express my opinion on its value maindeck. I'd actually say getting the third restoration angel is more important. Overall I think you should ditch the walls and get the third resto and fill the last 2 slots with kitchen finks or possibly blade splicer. Maybe spell queller if budget allows. Otherwise for budget, deck looks fine.
Commander
U Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
RG Zilortha, Strength Incarnate
WB Amalia Benavides Aguirre