i feel if you're playing any number of remands or spell snares and geist... you're going to have consistency issues... most lists that run serum and have a difference of maybe 4 cards so it's not a deckbuilding problem like you're trying to pose...
in jeskai your removal and counters are all conditional and particularly in game 1s you're going to draw the bad part of your deck... it's just unavoidable... playing remands? hopefully you don't play zoo or infect... playing against tron? hope you don't top deck bolts... ad nauseam? a lot of good those paths you're drawing... serum visions filters for that a bit as well as filtering multiple geists at the cost of tempo but a snapcaster deck is going to be mostly lean already so the one mana isn't going to hurt too much... in sb games they help dig to your sb cards or whatever is relevant at the time...
this isn't a twin deck but serum was a staple in twin for this reason... you draw more of the relevant parts of your deck to make up for the fact that your answers are kind of crappy....
Remand helps the deck with consistency and to get to 3-4 mana. It helps like you're suggesting with Visions but it does it while slowing them down. Remand also has countless other applications like stopping them counterspelling you by forcing them to recast it without the mana, making them waste a delve, making them waste a Snapcaster etc. Remand fits the tempo style of play perfectly.
Spell Snare would be a problem with how narrow it is if the meta wasn't so full of 2 drops. The meta is full of relevant threats at 2 though. There is room between tapped land and bolt for a couple of other turn 1 plays as well. You can also swing with the Colonnade and cast it in the same turn due to the fact it has vigilance and Spell Snare is instant, I've hit Terminate among other things doing that.
Tron is just a bad match in general. Every deck has those though, otherwise everyone would just play the one deck. Having Snare is helpful against Tron though as it stops Pyroclasm. Post-board there are a number of things that hurt Tron though and having Path helps vs. Wurmcoil. Bolts are never useless either, even against Tron, Bolts serve fine as damage to the face.
Twin used Vision as a staple for a very different reason. It wasn't consistency, it was assembling Twin. Twin wanted two specific cards. Twin and Exarch or Pestermite. Twin used Serum Visions to assemble those two cards together. That is what Visions is good for. Storm uses it for a similar reason which is that it wants to find Pyromancers Ascension. Those decks are Combo decks. We're not a Combo deck.
Look at the sample decks on the front page. Look at actual sanctioned tournament results. No Serum Visions.
i can tell you that serum was used to assemble the combo.. sometimes... not all the time... there will be times when you already have the combo but can't go for it.. you're playing against a deck where you sided the combo out.. but serum was still there... that's because twiin could play 3 different roles in a game and even in the same matchup...
and you're right about the results.. or a result... but geist was never a great tourney deck to begin with.. i'm not going to jam the same list that might've done well in one out of a thousand tournies... i'll take it into account but in order to further the archetype you kind of have to think outside the box... and that includes thinking of cards like serum other than a combo enabler... serum might be totally incorrect but that's why we're discussing it...
if it has had consistent results that would be a different story.. then you can look at common themes among the decklists... it hasn't though so that's why this archetype is still developing...
I've played with and against Twin many times. Twin isn't this deck. It's wrong to compare them and say it's because of what Twin did. Twin had different needs. This isn't primarily a Control deck, it can just be a controlling deck against decks that run a large number of creatures. This deck isn't waiting to Combo or waiting to find a Grudge to deal with a Torpor Orb. This isn't playing full Control hoping to land a Keranos, tap+bounce or counter with Cryptic and watch them burn to death. This is a beatdown deck. It's a Tempo Midrange deck that can play the controlling gameplan via. removal against faster decks but aims to play faster than everything else otherwise relying on direct damage and evasion to set it apart. It's pretty much a goodstuff list in UWr. You're not looking for anything in particular and you shouldn't be approaching games passively like needing to play to their tune either.
Geist has actually been used in a lot of tournaments. If you look at the front page there were results at major events. No visions. Recently I won a grand prix trial. No visions. Martin Juza played Jeskai Geist on the Pro Tour and he wasn't running visions then either. His issue with the deck was that the meta at the time (Twin) was unkind to it as it relied a lot on winning the dice roll to go first to win quicker than they could combo. That was then though, this is now. This is a much better deck in a meta full of bolt targets that's not as combo heavy. Abzan Company is big. Infect is still Infect, Merfolk still exist. Zoo style decks are around again and Affinity is the most popular deck in the format. Jeskai Geist does well in that meta.
As good as Jund is if everyone was playing BW tokens it would be awful. That's just Magic. There is no one deck to beat them all. It's exactly the same with this. The reason it's developing is not that it doesn't work effectively, it's purely popularity. That's how tiers are based, they're based on how popular a deck is, not on how good a deck is. Decks get more popular when more people represent them, they go through fads. Right now that fad is Podless Pod, also known as Abzan Company which we do well against, especially with sideboard options like Linvala and Hallowed Moonlight.
We're 194 pages into a thread. You're not walking in here with some revelation about Serum Visions that will suddenly change the archetype.
the reason why we're in the same thread is we both feel that the shell is well positioned... so yes i agree with you that the shell is good... we're really talking about a difference of 4 cards... or maybe about 8-10 cards if you compare my list to yours...
but in any case... the difference isn't much...
as far as tiers go yes... i agree with you but there are plenty of ppl who run geists and there are plenty of ppl who ran it at tournaments... i'm talking consistent results... abzan coco is a very good deck and recently has put up those results... geist is not even in the same vicinity and has nothing to do with popularity... when it gets results popularity will go up... this isn't some new thing that ppl are discovering...
i'm not really interested in taking another decklist and getting the same results as they have... because it's just not there... i'd rather try to push the archetype further because i am positive that ppl aren't playing with optimized lists... and i'm pretty sure serum is part of that...
Debating weather or not to run Serum Visions is very inconsequential. Either you run 3-4 SV, or you are running 1 Land and 2-3 extra of the two mana counterspells. Do either have a huge impact on the deck, probably not. I personally like having answers right away in my hand, but that is because I built the deck to be more controlling. If you are running the tempo game a little more, serum visions isn't a bad option.
i feel if you're playing any number of remands or spell snares and geist... you're going to have consistency issues... most lists that run serum and have a difference of maybe 4 cards so it's not a deckbuilding problem like you're trying to pose...
in jeskai your removal and counters are all conditional and particularly in game 1s you're going to draw the bad part of your deck... it's just unavoidable... playing remands? hopefully you don't play zoo or infect... playing against tron? hope you don't top deck bolts... ad nauseam? a lot of good those paths you're drawing... serum visions filters for that a bit as well as filtering multiple geists at the cost of tempo but a snapcaster deck is going to be mostly lean already so the one mana isn't going to hurt too much... in sb games they help dig to your sb cards or whatever is relevant at the time...
this isn't a twin deck but serum was a staple in twin for this reason... you draw more of the relevant parts of your deck to make up for the fact that your answers are kind of crappy....
Idk, I like Remands against Zoo and Infect. Not my favorite card, but it's not THAT bad.
So far I'm running the more controlling Geist version with 3 V-Clique and 9 counters, no Serum Visions and I've been pretty happy about it. I don't own any Visions, so I can't really test to say which I like better. In either case, I'm not convinced the difference of 4 cards (and it's cantrips vs. no-cantrips of all things...) is really gonna push us from developing to tier 1.
It might. But that'd have to be in conjunction with something else entirely. I do still like the deck a lot; it has solid game against a lot of decks.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Main things I took away from that list. I'm too lazy to keep looking for other Geists list right now. Maybe later. For a while though, I've been really wanting to convert to either Jeskai Thopters/Kiki or Gifts Thopter though...lol they seem like loads of fun with new toys.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Love the Thing in the Ice that's why I decided to drop the average cmc and run spell pierce and such. I hope 23 lands are enough since I was getting flooded constantly with 24. I haven't tested this list but I hope to get some games tomorrow and will update with some feedback. A store is running a modern side event this weekend, hopefully I'll get a chance to play (maybe I will be too tired since I'll be playing at least 2 standard tourneys).
i never leave in remands against aggro... there's enough 1 mana stuff in their decks that you're losing tempo... it's not horrendous but there are better options available...
i used to run 2 cliques myself and loved it but it lines up poorly against jund and other bolt decks... i'm down to 1 and 1 finks...
It runs a pretty weird creature base of 1x Goblin Dark Dwellers, 3x Resto, 3x Wall of Omens, 4x Snapcaster, 1x Kiki-Jiki, and 2x Geist. The list seems really all over the place, but obviously did well. I would personally cut the GDD and AV from the list, but Geist and Kiki together seems interesting. Is it too inconsistent to pack in a single Kiki-Jiki or is it worth trying?
Love the Thing in the Ice that's why I decided to drop the average cmc and run spell pierce and such. I hope 23 lands are enough since I was getting flooded constantly with 24. I haven't tested this list but I hope to get some games tomorrow and will update with some feedback. A store is running a modern side event this weekend, hopefully I'll get a chance to play (maybe I will be too tired since I'll be playing at least 2 standard tourneys).
No Geist mainboard? Your list honestly looks closer to the UWR Control decks than UWR midrange.
(Which again reiterates what I've been saying about serum visions: it belongs in the control variant of the deck, not the midrange one.)
Interesting list. However I don't think cutting Spell Snare is a good idea right now, current meta is great for Snare.
On Visions: although I'm happy with them, I don't think a full playset is needed. 'Cause we don't want to Visions into Visions. Running 3 instead of 4 should be enough not to start chaining them and losing time, but a case can be made for running just 2 of them. I think the magic number is either 3 or 2, probably 3.
Yeah, Spell Snare at 1-2 at the very least. It's pretty damn well-positioned right now.
i never leave in remands against aggro... there's enough 1 mana stuff in their decks that you're losing tempo... it's not horrendous but there are better options available...
i used to run 2 cliques myself and loved it but it lines up poorly against jund and other bolt decks... i'm down to 1 and 1 finks...
Don't get me wrong -- I don't LIKE the card against these decks; it's not like I'm actively looking to keep the card in vs. Hyper Aggro. If there's something better to side it out for, I'll do it in an instant. Just game 1...I don't hate it. Except against Burn. Much better to just Leak the card than stall.
It runs a pretty weird creature base of 1x Goblin Dark Dwellers, 3x Resto, 3x Wall of Omens, 4x Snapcaster, 1x Kiki-Jiki, and 2x Geist. The list seems really all over the place, but obviously did well. I would personally cut the GDD and AV from the list, but Geist and Kiki together seems interesting. Is it too inconsistent to pack in a single Kiki-Jiki or is it worth trying?
Not gonna lie. That list looks like a pile of cards mashed together...
I won't say I'm not tempted/impressed though; a list like that lets me keep playing Geist meanwhile also getting to play an "Oops I win" combo. And then AV + GDD on top of that for raw card advantage! Jesus...
I wanna say he got a good bit of luck to get that far, but at the same time, 2nd place isn't something to sneeze at. And the individual cards aren't bad by any stretch. I somewhat prefer a little more direction in my decks than that, but I shouldn't judge; I built a Kiki-Thopter-Sword combo deck the other day. lol More or less like this guy's...
Probably the best way to figure out what we want to do is for all of us to jam this kind of list like, 100+ games or something. Then figure out what card combos work and don't (GDD isn't pulling its weight, "I want more Kiki's", "Geist is definitely wrong in this deck", "Wow, Geist works just fine next to Kiki", etc. etc.).
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
No Geist mainboard? Your list honestly looks closer to the UWR Control decks than UWR midrange. (Which again reiterates what I've been saying about serum visions: it belongs in the control variant of the deck, not the midrange one.)
I side the thing in the ice copies for the geist of saint traft. It's a trollish move (that's why I don't play eiganjo castle)and honestly I don't think geist is enough to qualify a deck as midrange since my past list was running 4 mana leak instead of the serum visions and had the geist MB.
Archangel Avacyn is awesome, almost like having extra colonnades. I like this list but I was thinking to change the vendilion clique for an extra land or maybe a peek, but maybe it's the old twin player in me that's pushing to play my old cards. I greatly prefer tempo over control.
Hi guys. I'm new to the forum. I started in the Prowess build, but once I started playing in my new meta, I knew right away after two nights of modern... that i needed a new approach, and midrange is more my style anyways.
-So i'm not sure how this build looks, i think i might cut down on one of my paths, to make room for another counterspell.
-I also think i may take out a check land for another basic, i played against living end last night and fulminator mage was not friendly to me.
-my meta is pretty competative, and quite serious, which is a huge difference from what im used to.
-during my 2 nights of playing, i literally saw every deck archetype under the sun: Affinity, Infect, Jund, Temur Goyf, STUPID THOPTER BUILDS, lingering souls everywhere , 3 different delver builds, Abzan, soul sisters, reanimator, dredge, Tron of course, grixis control with/without thing in the ice, burn and zoo or course, and of course chord of calling decks. So i need a sideboard that will hit as much as possible on my bad match ups.
-bonfire of the damned is a pet card, i want to try it out against all the token builds like thopters and lingering souls, and all the small aggro decks.
-dont mock gideon. I love smashing him in on an open board. He has won games for me by himself lol but im open to suggestions gang
How does the sideboard look so far guys? Any tips/tricks? I would like to make some room for another timely reinforcements... i figured kor firewalker wouldn't be too easy on the mana base and with my board wipes doesn't make much sense.
-Do people prefer anger of the gods or supreme verdict or try to find room for both?
-Should I find room for spellskite?
- how about grim lavamancer? I have 3 that I would gladly use
Hi guys. I'm new to the forum. I started in the Prowess build, but once I started playing in my new meta, I knew right away after two nights of modern... that i needed a new approach, and midrange is more my style anyways.
-So i'm not sure how this build looks, i think i might cut down on one of my paths, to make room for another counterspell.
-I also think i may take out a check land for another basic, i played against living end last night and fulminator mage was not friendly to me.
-my meta is pretty competative, and quite serious, which is a huge difference from what im used to.
-during my 2 nights of playing, i literally saw every deck archetype under the sun: Affinity, Infect, Jund, Temur Goyf, STUPID THOPTER BUILDS, lingering souls everywhere , 3 different delver builds, Abzan, soul sisters, reanimator, dredge, Tron of course, grixis control with/without thing in the ice, burn and zoo or course, and of course chord of calling decks. So i need a sideboard that will hit as much as possible on my bad match ups.
-bonfire of the damned is a pet card, i want to try it out against all the token builds like thopters and lingering souls, and all the small aggro decks.
-dont mock gideon. I love smashing him in on an open board. He has won games for me by himself lol but im open to suggestions gang
How does the sideboard look so far guys? Any tips/tricks? I would like to make some room for another timely reinforcements... i figured kor firewalker wouldn't be too easy on the mana base and with my board wipes doesn't make much sense.
-Do people prefer anger of the gods or supreme verdict or try to find room for both?
-Should I find room for spellskite?
Very cool list! Bonfire of the Damned + Serum Visions is a really good idea. I imagine that could lead to some massive blow-outs. The full 4 paths are usually necessary in the deck, so I wouldn't run any less. The only changes I could potentially see are:
1. OUT: 1x Forked Bolt and 1x Spell Pierce, IN: 2x Remand. Forked bolt and spell pierce are both great cards, but only against specific match-ups. Remand is a more general tempo generator that can help us lock out the game. You already have better Forked Bolt and Spell Pierce-like cards in the sideboard that can come in if you need them.
2. OUT: 1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, IN: 1x Archangel Avacyn. Gideon is also an awesome card, but we can't take advantage of him the same way that tokens or any other go-wide strategy can. Avacyn is much more in-line with your deck's strategy by being able to protect Geist, but is also stellar against aggro in the same way that Gideon is.
3. OUT: 1x Clifftop Retreat, IN:Ghost Quarter or Desolate Lighthouse. You seem to have more than enough sources of each color, so I would recommend trying out one or two utility lands. Ghost Quarter can be immensely helpful against enemy man-lands, tron pieces, or Gavonry townships.
4. OUT: 1x Essence Scatter, IN:1x Celestial Purge. Essence scatter is a bit redundant when we have a ton of removal and better two mana counterspells. Celestial purge helps us get rid of things like Liliana of the Veil.
That Bonfire of the Damned is seriously a cool idea, I might try it out myself!
[quote from="Rutherjc19 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/220049-uwr-midrange?comment=4887"]
Very cool list! Bonfire of the Damned + Serum Visions is a really good idea. I imagine that could lead to some massive blow-outs. The full 4 paths are usually necessary in the deck, so I wouldn't run any less. The only changes I could potentially see are:
1. OUT: 1x Forked Bolt and 1x Spell Pierce, IN: 2x Remand. Forked bolt and spell pierce are both great cards, but only against specific match-ups. Remand is a more general tempo generator that can help us lock out the game. You already have better Forked Bolt and Spell Pierce-like cards in the sideboard that can come in if you need them.
2. OUT: 1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, IN: 1x Archangel Avacyn. Gideon is also an awesome card, but we can't take advantage of him the same way that tokens or any other go-wide strategy can. Avacyn is much more in-line with your deck's strategy by being able to protect Geist, but is also stellar against aggro in the same way that Gideon is.
3. OUT: 1x Clifftop Retreat, IN:Ghost Quarter or Desolate Lighthouse. You seem to have more than enough sources of each color, so I would recommend trying out one or two utility lands. Ghost Quarter can be immensely helpful against enemy man-lands, tron pieces, or Gavonry townships.
4. OUT: 1x Essence Scatter, IN:1x Celestial Purge. Essence scatter is a bit redundant when we have a ton of removal and better two mana counterspells. Celestial purge helps us get rid of things like Liliana of the Veil.
That Bonfire of the Damned is seriously a cool idea, I might try it out myself!
Thanks for the quick reply!
I updated the list because I forgot I did have a desolate lighthouse mainboard and only 3 colonnades, my 4th one is in the mail as well speak.
I will gladly put remand in my list. I have only 1 so I'll pick up another one.
Avacyn I might be able to get a hold of. It makes sense why she is better so I will see if I can get it.
Celestial purge also makes sense as well. Thank you
in jeskai your removal and counters are all conditional and particularly in game 1s you're going to draw the bad part of your deck... it's just unavoidable... playing remands? hopefully you don't play zoo or infect... playing against tron? hope you don't top deck bolts... ad nauseam? a lot of good those paths you're drawing... serum visions filters for that a bit as well as filtering multiple geists at the cost of tempo but a snapcaster deck is going to be mostly lean already so the one mana isn't going to hurt too much... in sb games they help dig to your sb cards or whatever is relevant at the time...
this isn't a twin deck but serum was a staple in twin for this reason... you draw more of the relevant parts of your deck to make up for the fact that your answers are kind of crappy....
Spell Snare would be a problem with how narrow it is if the meta wasn't so full of 2 drops. The meta is full of relevant threats at 2 though. There is room between tapped land and bolt for a couple of other turn 1 plays as well. You can also swing with the Colonnade and cast it in the same turn due to the fact it has vigilance and Spell Snare is instant, I've hit Terminate among other things doing that.
Tron is just a bad match in general. Every deck has those though, otherwise everyone would just play the one deck. Having Snare is helpful against Tron though as it stops Pyroclasm. Post-board there are a number of things that hurt Tron though and having Path helps vs. Wurmcoil. Bolts are never useless either, even against Tron, Bolts serve fine as damage to the face.
Twin used Vision as a staple for a very different reason. It wasn't consistency, it was assembling Twin. Twin wanted two specific cards. Twin and Exarch or Pestermite. Twin used Serum Visions to assemble those two cards together. That is what Visions is good for. Storm uses it for a similar reason which is that it wants to find Pyromancers Ascension. Those decks are Combo decks. We're not a Combo deck.
Look at the sample decks on the front page. Look at actual sanctioned tournament results. No Serum Visions.
and you're right about the results.. or a result... but geist was never a great tourney deck to begin with.. i'm not going to jam the same list that might've done well in one out of a thousand tournies... i'll take it into account but in order to further the archetype you kind of have to think outside the box... and that includes thinking of cards like serum other than a combo enabler... serum might be totally incorrect but that's why we're discussing it...
if it has had consistent results that would be a different story.. then you can look at common themes among the decklists... it hasn't though so that's why this archetype is still developing...
Geist has actually been used in a lot of tournaments. If you look at the front page there were results at major events. No visions. Recently I won a grand prix trial. No visions. Martin Juza played Jeskai Geist on the Pro Tour and he wasn't running visions then either. His issue with the deck was that the meta at the time (Twin) was unkind to it as it relied a lot on winning the dice roll to go first to win quicker than they could combo. That was then though, this is now. This is a much better deck in a meta full of bolt targets that's not as combo heavy. Abzan Company is big. Infect is still Infect, Merfolk still exist. Zoo style decks are around again and Affinity is the most popular deck in the format. Jeskai Geist does well in that meta.
As good as Jund is if everyone was playing BW tokens it would be awful. That's just Magic. There is no one deck to beat them all. It's exactly the same with this. The reason it's developing is not that it doesn't work effectively, it's purely popularity. That's how tiers are based, they're based on how popular a deck is, not on how good a deck is. Decks get more popular when more people represent them, they go through fads. Right now that fad is Podless Pod, also known as Abzan Company which we do well against, especially with sideboard options like Linvala and Hallowed Moonlight.
We're 194 pages into a thread. You're not walking in here with some revelation about Serum Visions that will suddenly change the archetype.
but in any case... the difference isn't much...
as far as tiers go yes... i agree with you but there are plenty of ppl who run geists and there are plenty of ppl who ran it at tournaments... i'm talking consistent results... abzan coco is a very good deck and recently has put up those results... geist is not even in the same vicinity and has nothing to do with popularity... when it gets results popularity will go up... this isn't some new thing that ppl are discovering...
i'm not really interested in taking another decklist and getting the same results as they have... because it's just not there... i'd rather try to push the archetype further because i am positive that ppl aren't playing with optimized lists... and i'm pretty sure serum is part of that...
we'll agree to disagree...
Idk, I like Remands against Zoo and Infect. Not my favorite card, but it's not THAT bad.
So far I'm running the more controlling Geist version with 3 V-Clique and 9 counters, no Serum Visions and I've been pretty happy about it. I don't own any Visions, so I can't really test to say which I like better. In either case, I'm not convinced the difference of 4 cards (and it's cantrips vs. no-cantrips of all things...) is really gonna push us from developing to tier 1.
It might. But that'd have to be in conjunction with something else entirely. I do still like the deck a lot; it has solid game against a lot of decks.
4th place list at States.
4x Geist, Nalaar parents, 4x Serum Visions, 2x Cryptic Commands
Main things I took away from that list. I'm too lazy to keep looking for other Geists list right now. Maybe later. For a while though, I've been really wanting to convert to either Jeskai Thopters/Kiki or Gifts Thopter though...lol they seem like loads of fun with new toys.
3x Celestial Colonnade
4x Flooded Strand
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
Sorcery (4)
4x Serum Visions
2x Cryptic Command
2x Electrolyze
1x Izzet Charm
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
3x Path to Exile
4x Remand
2x Spell Pierce
2x Spell Snare
Creature (10)
2x Archangel Avacyn
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Thing in the Ice
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Crumble to Dust
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Kozilek's Return
3x Geist of Saint Thraft
1x Path to Exile
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Spellskite
1x Stony Silence
1x Wear // Tear
Love the Thing in the Ice that's why I decided to drop the average cmc and run spell pierce and such. I hope 23 lands are enough since I was getting flooded constantly with 24. I haven't tested this list but I hope to get some games tomorrow and will update with some feedback. A store is running a modern side event this weekend, hopefully I'll get a chance to play (maybe I will be too tired since I'll be playing at least 2 standard tourneys).
i used to run 2 cliques myself and loved it but it lines up poorly against jund and other bolt decks... i'm down to 1 and 1 finks...
It runs a pretty weird creature base of 1x Goblin Dark Dwellers, 3x Resto, 3x Wall of Omens, 4x Snapcaster, 1x Kiki-Jiki, and 2x Geist. The list seems really all over the place, but obviously did well. I would personally cut the GDD and AV from the list, but Geist and Kiki together seems interesting. Is it too inconsistent to pack in a single Kiki-Jiki or is it worth trying?
No Geist mainboard? Your list honestly looks closer to the UWR Control decks than UWR midrange.
(Which again reiterates what I've been saying about serum visions: it belongs in the control variant of the deck, not the midrange one.)
Yeah, Spell Snare at 1-2 at the very least. It's pretty damn well-positioned right now.
Don't get me wrong -- I don't LIKE the card against these decks; it's not like I'm actively looking to keep the card in vs. Hyper Aggro. If there's something better to side it out for, I'll do it in an instant. Just game 1...I don't hate it. Except against Burn. Much better to just Leak the card than stall.
Not gonna lie. That list looks like a pile of cards mashed together...
I won't say I'm not tempted/impressed though; a list like that lets me keep playing Geist meanwhile also getting to play an "Oops I win" combo. And then AV + GDD on top of that for raw card advantage! Jesus...
I wanna say he got a good bit of luck to get that far, but at the same time, 2nd place isn't something to sneeze at. And the individual cards aren't bad by any stretch. I somewhat prefer a little more direction in my decks than that, but I shouldn't judge; I built a Kiki-Thopter-Sword combo deck the other day. lol More or less like this guy's...
Probably the best way to figure out what we want to do is for all of us to jam this kind of list like, 100+ games or something. Then figure out what card combos work and don't (GDD isn't pulling its weight, "I want more Kiki's", "Geist is definitely wrong in this deck", "Wow, Geist works just fine next to Kiki", etc. etc.).
I side the thing in the ice copies for the geist of saint traft. It's a trollish move (that's why I don't play eiganjo castle)and honestly I don't think geist is enough to qualify a deck as midrange since my past list was running 4 mana leak instead of the serum visions and had the geist MB.
Archangel Avacyn is awesome, almost like having extra colonnades. I like this list but I was thinking to change the vendilion clique for an extra land or maybe a peek, but maybe it's the old twin player in me that's pushing to play my old cards. I greatly prefer tempo over control.
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendillion Clique
3x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Restoration Angel
1x Thundermaw Hellkite
Sorcery (6)
1x Bonfire of the Damned
2x Forked Bolt
3x Serum Visions
Instant (16)
4x Lightning bolt
2x Mana Leak
3x Lightning Helix
2x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
4x Path to Exile
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Land (25)
4x Arid Mesa
3x Celestial Colonnade
1x Clifftop Retreat
1x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Flooded Strand
2x Glacial Fortress
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
2x Sacred Foundry
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
Hi guys. I'm new to the forum. I started in the Prowess build, but once I started playing in my new meta, I knew right away after two nights of modern... that i needed a new approach, and midrange is more my style anyways.
-So i'm not sure how this build looks, i think i might cut down on one of my paths, to make room for another counterspell.
-I also think i may take out a check land for another basic, i played against living end last night and fulminator mage was not friendly to me.
-my meta is pretty competative, and quite serious, which is a huge difference from what im used to.
-during my 2 nights of playing, i literally saw every deck archetype under the sun: Affinity, Infect, Jund, Temur Goyf, STUPID THOPTER BUILDS, lingering souls everywhere , 3 different delver builds, Abzan, soul sisters, reanimator, dredge, Tron of course, grixis control with/without thing in the ice, burn and zoo or course, and of course chord of calling decks. So i need a sideboard that will hit as much as possible on my bad match ups.
-bonfire of the damned is a pet card, i want to try it out against all the token builds like thopters and lingering souls, and all the small aggro decks.
-dont mock gideon. I love smashing him in on an open board. He has won games for me by himself lol but im open to suggestions gang
Sideboard 15
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Essence Scatter
1x Pithing Needle
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Wear // Tear
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Timely Reinforcements
How does the sideboard look so far guys? Any tips/tricks? I would like to make some room for another timely reinforcements... i figured kor firewalker wouldn't be too easy on the mana base and with my board wipes doesn't make much sense.
-Do people prefer anger of the gods or supreme verdict or try to find room for both?
-Should I find room for spellskite?
- how about grim lavamancer? I have 3 that I would gladly use
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
Very cool list! Bonfire of the Damned + Serum Visions is a really good idea. I imagine that could lead to some massive blow-outs. The full 4 paths are usually necessary in the deck, so I wouldn't run any less. The only changes I could potentially see are:
1. OUT: 1x Forked Bolt and 1x Spell Pierce, IN: 2x Remand. Forked bolt and spell pierce are both great cards, but only against specific match-ups. Remand is a more general tempo generator that can help us lock out the game. You already have better Forked Bolt and Spell Pierce-like cards in the sideboard that can come in if you need them.
2. OUT: 1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, IN: 1x Archangel Avacyn. Gideon is also an awesome card, but we can't take advantage of him the same way that tokens or any other go-wide strategy can. Avacyn is much more in-line with your deck's strategy by being able to protect Geist, but is also stellar against aggro in the same way that Gideon is.
3. OUT: 1x Clifftop Retreat, IN:Ghost Quarter or Desolate Lighthouse. You seem to have more than enough sources of each color, so I would recommend trying out one or two utility lands. Ghost Quarter can be immensely helpful against enemy man-lands, tron pieces, or Gavonry townships.
4. OUT: 1x Essence Scatter, IN:1x Celestial Purge. Essence scatter is a bit redundant when we have a ton of removal and better two mana counterspells. Celestial purge helps us get rid of things like Liliana of the Veil.
That Bonfire of the Damned is seriously a cool idea, I might try it out myself!
Thanks for the quick reply!
I updated the list because I forgot I did have a desolate lighthouse mainboard and only 3 colonnades, my 4th one is in the mail as well speak.
I will gladly put remand in my list. I have only 1 so I'll pick up another one.
Avacyn I might be able to get a hold of. It makes sense why she is better so I will see if I can get it.
Celestial purge also makes sense as well. Thank you
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.