Went 6-2 at Ovinospring in Milan, Italy. Didn't make it to the top 16 because of rating. Ended 25th out of 225 players. It was an exciting day. I was really close to do something pretty big here: a top 8 at a relevant tournament with a Geist deck. I'm pretty pumped up: it looks like the new meta is good for Geist. I've been waiting this moment for quite some time, I love this deck, but in the last couple of years it was just unfit to the meta. I'll post a report soon, I'll just anticipate that the two losses were both at the hands of the same deck and I need to figure something out to improve that MU. All the 6 wins were to different archetypes so the deck felt pretty flexible also thanks to some good sideboard choices (in two of my six wins I lost game 1 but was able to reverse the situation after sideboarding).
So I think the 2 Avacyn with 22 lands is a bit much, even with the cantrips. I know there was a discussion on the previous page and I read it all, but I think that the top end is just a little bit too hard with 2 Avacyn. I'm wondering if you ever ran into problems during the tournament, assuming you ran this list.
I also ran 2 Mana Leaks instead of Remands but I think with 22 lands (which I am now definitely following) 4 Remand has to be correct.
I disagree a bit on 4 Colonnades because I don't like too many lands that come into play tapped in an aggressive list. I can see the argument for running 4 since by the time Colonnades become relevant you want to be drawing as many as possible, but I'm going to try a Seachrome Coast in its place for now.
The Castle I am considering picking up but I was wondering about how good it has been for you and why you weren't running the second Steam Vents. I've run into problems getting my colors during playtesting.
P.S. I wish Avacyn was only $20... I should've preordered her...
So, I'm officially stumped and frustrated. I love this deck, I've enjoyed playing it very much, and maybe I'm making some very serious misplays, but I'm having trouble closing games. I've ended more games in ties with this deck than I ever have in my life, to the point that it's almost embarrassing tying a match at FNM now. My list is below and I definitely need some help. I play in a varied, competitive modern meta -- most prevalent decks being Jund, Angel Chord, Merfolk, Junk, Elves, Burn, and some control builds (Emeria, Temur, etc). Ajani has been less than stellar and I've swapped him back and forth with Pia and Kiran Nalaar, with neither feeling really incredible in the slot. Eiganjo Castle has also underwhelmed and I've wanted to put a Desolate Lighthouse there, but also not stoked on another colorless source (unless I replace the Ghost Quarter instead). Any help on better closing games would be a huge help.
FIRST MATCH: 0-2 LOSS vs RG Scapeshift (0-1)
Game 1: Had to mulligan twice and still didn't have the second land. Decided to keep instead of going down to 4 cards. I was lucky 'cause I drew the second land off the top afer scrying. But still I was obviously off to a slow start while my opponent ramped up big amounts of mana and proceeded to cast Scapeshift for the win.
Game 2: Still had mana issues, this time it was about color. Not enough blue sources and a Cryptic Command stuck in hand I was never able to cast. To make things better, the guy slammed a Boil. I was still able to put on something of a fight, but eventually he just killed me with Primeval Titan while I was holding a useless Invasive Surgery in hand.
SECOND MATCH: 2-0 WIN vs U Tron (1-1)
Game 1: Hadn't tested this MU really and my hand wasn't very fast. But I had a key card: the singleton Vendilion Clique. His hand was full of mana and had only one threat, Ulamog. Took Ulamog with Vendilion and he didn't draw any other threat in time as I drew a couple burn spells and killed him pretty quickly.
Game 2: This was the first good game of the day. Pretty tight. He had several counterspells and it was difficult for me to find an opening for Geist. I won by beating him down with a couple Snapcasters, but it was close. He also Mindslavered me. Good decision to cast the Snapcasters without target on turn 2 and 3 just to put pressure on him, had I kept them in hand, I would have lost this game.
THIRD MATCH: 2-1 WIN vs Affinity (2-1)
Game 1: I was on the draw and literally drew the wrong half of the deck. Had a hand full of Remand, Snapcasters with no targets, Resto and lands. No Path, Bolt or Helix. He killed me with infect on turn 4.
Game 2: This was super tight. He had very good draws and almost killed me with Etched Champion, but I killed him first with fliers and burn spells.
Game 3: Similar to game two. He drew two Etched Champion and that card is a pain to deal with. He also had Ravager in all games by the way. There was sort of a race, I had Geist and Resto, he had double Champion and something else, I came out on top also thanks to a very timely Timely Reinforcements.
FOURTH MATCH: 2-0 WIN vs UR Delver (3-1)
Game 1: He was on a Stormchaser Mage brew. Started of extremely fast but I stayed alive long enough to draw the right cards and reverse the tide. Geist was very quick in closing this one out after I casted him.
Game 2: I was super afraid of Blood Moon, sided in both Purges and Wer // Tear but didn't draw any, was always holding up mana to Remand BM, but he never drew any of his BM, and I killed him with Resto + Snap-Burn, always playing in his EOT.
FIFTH MATCH: 2-1 WIN vs Esper Thopter/Sword (4-1)
Game 1: I missplayed, wasted my Spell Snare and he was able to put the combo in place very quickly. I had no answer to 5 thopters per turn.
Game 2: My opponent didn't understand I was on Geist, thought I was Jeskai Control, and this happened in other cases as well and it's very good for us. Boarded out all of his Verdicts, once I landed Geist turn 3 he didn't really have any anwers, rode Geist to victory.
Game 3: Tight game, long game. Was able to prevent him from ever putting the combo in play. Dispelled a Gifts, Snared a Foundry. At the end I won with Geist again.
SIXTH MATCH: 0-2 LOSS vs RUG Bring to Light Scapeshift (4-2)
Game 1: My hand was decent, but the MU just felt bad. Once again my opponent ramped up large amounts of mana, and when he had 9 lands in play while I had just 4, proceeded to cast Bring to Light for Scapshift. I had Remand, but he would've just re-casted Scapeshift. I had Crypitc, and tried to use it to counter his Scapeshift, but he had not one, but two Remand of his own.
Game 2: Same as above. He searched for lands until he was far ahead on mana, casted Scapshift, I tried to counter it with Invasive Surgery with Remand backup, but he had two counterspells of his own. I felt a bit helpless after this match.
SEVENTH MATCH: 2-0 WIN vs Burn (5-2)
Game 1: Triple Lightning Helix + Snapcaster sealed the deal.
Game 2: Timely Reinforcements + Snapcaster sealed the deal. I ended the game at something like 16 life. MU feels like a bye. It's not like he had bad draws or something. He was always trying to answer my life gains with Atarka and Skullcrack, but Spell Snare, Dispel and Remand were there to prevent him from doing so.
EIGHTH MATCH: 2-0 WIN vs Grishoalbrand (6-2)
Game 1: He had the turn 2 combo, I had Spell Snare. Tried to go off again later, I had Remand. Closed him out with Geist.
Game 2: Again, he didn't find the opening, as I dispelled a Through the Breach and took a piece of the combo with Clique. Beat him down with Clique and Snap.
Cards that overperformed (outside of the Snap-Geist-Resto-Bolt-Path-Helix-Remand shell):
* Spell Snare. Drew a lot of them, and was always a good, if not vital thing. Will consider adding a third copy. It's a great card vs Thopter/Sword, a difficult MU and a deck on the rise. Solid vs virtually all aggro decks, very good vs some combo decks like Grishoalbrand or Storm, good in counter wars, good vs BGx, good vs any Snapcaster deck.
* Vendilion Clique. Might want to play both copies maindeck. Card is never really bad. Against Affinity it's still a flash blocker for their fliers, almost like a removal. VS combo and big mana decks card is a house.
* Electrolyze. Card advantage with Snap, solid EOT cycling vs control decks, good vs aggro decks. Might want a second copy.
* Dispel. Whether it's a way to get Geist through, an answer to combo decks, to Gifts, a way to win counter wars...this card is just so efficient I might want a third copy.
* Timely Reinforcements. Good vs midrange, good vs aggro and Burn. This is one of the most useful SB cards and running 3 wouldn't be that absurd.
Cards that underperformed:
* Eiganjo Castle. Got to use it once, didn't really matter. Forced me to mulligan a couple times, got me in trouble in game 2 of the first match. I'll probably play a third Island instead.
* Cryptic Command. You can't say Cryptic is useless or a bad card, it has so much value, allows Geist to get through, takes care of otherwise deadly cards like Ensnaring Bridge. It wasn't that bad. But it did feel lackluster. Also, triple blue is not always easy to achieve by turn 4. It's very weak vs decks with counterspells. And I definitely felt like 1 is enought in any MU, you don't want to draw the second. Will be thinking about cutting one, or maybe even both.
* Invasive Surgery. Didn't save me vs Scapeshift. They can win with Primeval Titan and other cards. Having delirium on is not that easy (I never achieved it).
Two issues I'll be trying to deal with:
* Scapeshift looked like a worse MU than I had thought. I defeated it in online testing, but the pilots weren't that good. When well piloted, this deck is deadly for us. Surgery didn't seem to cut it. I'll be looking for other ways to deal with it. In my UW Control I used to run cards like Aven Mindcensor, Shadow of Doubt and Runed Halo.
* I felt vulnerable to Blood Moon. Never caused me problems yesterday, but it's a fact we don't run a lot of basics and need a lot of blue and white mana to run smoothly. Adding a third Island instead of Eiganjo Castle might be a good idea, keeping both Celestial Purges an even better one.
Nice work. I haven't gotten around to testing Archangel Avacyn yet, what are your thoughts?
After hundreds upon hundreds of games, I think the correct number of Cryptic Commands is 0-1, unless the meta is in such a place where more really is that good. My personal preference is to try and keep one in the list, but with the format as aggressive as it is right now, a case can be made for 0.
I have gone back to a one of Counterflux in the SB, this can help vs Scapeshift.
I'm not a fan of Cryptic in this deck at all. Cryptic Command is a great card but it's much better in Jeskai Control.
I really like Ojutai for finishing games, I'm actually digging 15 creatures right now. 4 Snappy, 4 Geist, 2 Clique, 3 Resto, 2 Ojutai. It packs good punch. I'm still at 24 land though. I'm not a big fan of the decks running 18-22 and packing cantrips. Outside of Remand/Electrolyze I tend to avoid Cantrips as while they give you some consistency, you lose tempo, I prefer to play fast.
Against Scapeshift I use Leyline of Sanctity which helps against Jund/Junk and Burn as well. I have a Spell Pierce maindeck as well which is pretty sweet, even if they try protect the Scapeshift cast Spell Pierce with your own Remand forcing them to recast their counterspell almost always stops it.
The deck has been improved since then. I dropped an Electrolyze for a second Clique. I dropped Sacred Foundry for a Sulfur Falls (useful vs. Choke) and my sideboard has completely changed. That SB was during the Eldrazi meta. My new SB is a lot better. One non-Eldrazi change was I just swapped out Crumble for 2 GQ. I find they help against Jund/Infect for stopping manlands, I just swap them 2 for 2 with Minamo/Slayers.
I run 2 Snares, 1 Pierce. With Snapcasters you can re-use Pierce and it hits a lot of things like Walkers etc. as well. I'd run more but it's not useful at all in certain matchups. Having it as a 1 of makes it easy to board out however.
On Ojutai being a 5 drop without Flash, Geist is a 3 drop without Flash. You treat it exactly the same as you'd treat Geist just when you have more land. It has Hexproof so it doesn't just die to Terminate after you cast it either. Ojutai doesn't need Minamo + Stronghold they just make it broken, even without them you can untap him with Resto Angel if they try remove him, he'll survive a turn due to Hexproof and his ability ends games as it lets you dig for burn spells to finish someone.
Minamo + Stronghold work outside of Ojutai as well. Minamo is a Blue land that doesn't get hit by Choke for one. Stronghold can let you pump something to win trades (lets a Clique kill a Resto Angel or Tasigur for example), it can also let you drop something and give it Haste. Even just having Stronghold turn Resto Angel into a 5/4 Vigilance flyer is impressive. I board them out for GQs when relevant and don't get stuck with Ghost Quarters when they're irrelevant.
Counterflux is a counterspell, which is fine but it's just that. You need to leave mana open to counterspell. Leyline you force them to deal with it while you execute your gameplan. It pretty much wins that matchup when you have it in your opening hand and it's invaluable against Jund/Junk as it stops Liliana forcing you to sac the Geist.
I've tried less lands, it's always awful, I always stick to 24 with 4 Remand, 2 Electrolyze. I don't run Visions, I hate that card in this deck as I've stated numerous times in this thread.
1) Avacyn can die to terminate if they do it before the enter the battlefield trigger resolves. That said I do really like her so far in testing. I also liked keranos or Thundermaw in that spot.
2) CounterFlux is a very versatile sideboard card. It is a hard no and great in many matchups.
3) My problem with the 22 land but lots of cantrips debate is that when you take an early turn to play a card to dig for your land drops you are missing the tempo of either killing an opponent's creature, landing a geist, or countering their spell. with the exception of remand and electrolyze, I see very little need for can tripping in midrange tempo decks. I cannot imagine running 22 lands and 5 drops unless I'm tron. I think 24 is the right number. I used to run 25 but cut one for a shadow of doubt and am loving it.
So, I'm officially stumped and frustrated. I love this deck, I've enjoyed playing it very much, and maybe I'm making some very serious misplays, but I'm having trouble closing games. I've ended more games in ties with this deck than I ever have in my life, to the point that it's almost embarrassing tying a match at FNM now. My list is below and I definitely need some help. I play in a varied, competitive modern meta -- most prevalent decks being Jund, Angel Chord, Merfolk, Junk, Elves, Burn, and some control builds (Emeria, Temur, etc). Ajani has been less than stellar and I've swapped him back and forth with Pia and Kiran Nalaar, with neither feeling really incredible in the slot. Eiganjo Castle has also underwhelmed and I've wanted to put a Desolate Lighthouse there, but also not stoked on another colorless source (unless I replace the Ghost Quarter instead). Any help on better closing games would be a huge help.
Your list looks typical, although I would make a few changes. Geist kills quick once he hits. once I land him I do everything I can to clear the path for him to attack safely. and in a lot of cases I will attack in, knowing he will die just to deal 4 to their face. this is not a control deck and the lightning bolts can also help close out games as well.
I would cut a cryptic command to run the 4th geist. and cut ajani for the 4th lightning helix. you could also try boros charm instead of elspeth to speed your clock up if you'd like.
Ajani has been on the way out, but I was unsure of what to replace him with. 4th Helix sounds like a good point and I'm still really iffy on the 4th Geist from previous experience. My initial plan was to try the Serum Visions route -- I haven't been a fan of it in this shell in theory, but other players do seem to see success with it. Maybe dropping 1x CC, 1x Ajani, 1x Remand, 1x Ghost Quarter (it's severely underperformed in my local meta) for 3x Serum Visions and 1x Lightning Helix? The note on the playstyle of the deck is important, though, for my mindset. I think I've been too set on leaving mana up for counters than I have for tempoing my opponent out and laying down beats with Geist.
In my honest opinion 4 geists is necessary. worst case scenario you have another in hand and can swing it into blockers without hesitation. That's not a bad spot to be in. I really like remand. When it is on, it is a time walk. At worst it cycles and makes the opponent pay mana. So I wouldn't cut one for a serum visions.
Regarding serum visions. I've tested without and with it. Without it, you top deck gas which is good in a proactive list. With it you can keep more hands and can dig for sideboard hate. That said, I'm running 1 right now and it might be the worst card in my deck. If your playstyle is controlling rather than "burn them out" like mine, then it will be better for you. I like this deck because it allows me to be reactive in the early turns until I land a threat and then turn the corner guns a blazing, like John Wayne kicking in a saloon door or something crazy. That is how geist is when he sticks: game over.
Thank you for these comments! I think they make a lot of sense and I'll move the 4th Geist into my list and put Remand back -- I will definitely say that I found myself missing the 4th Remand while it was gone, so that point also makes sense.
Your list looks typical, although I would make a few changes. Geist kills quick once he hits. once I land him I do everything I can to clear the path for him to attack safely. and in a lot of cases I will attack in, knowing he will die just to deal 4 to their face. this is not a control deck and the lightning bolts can also help close out games as well.
I would cut a cryptic command to run the 4th geist. and cut ajani for the 4th lightning helix. you could also try boros charm instead of elspeth to speed your clock up if you'd like.
I don't really think the 4th Geist is necessary. Depending on how you build this deck, it can really be a control deck. The list that @nomemorial posted shares 70/75 cards with the typical UWR control build. I think you're right that there are two different ways to play the deck, which is why it is so flexible compared to a pure control build. You can go in gun's blazing against other control and combo decks or you can play control yourself against aggro and midrange. For that reason, I think 4 Geist's is never a good idea because it takes away from the flexibility of the deck. When you are forced to play the control role, sitting with two Geists in hand is really a burden.
I'm surprised people are suggesting cutting Cryptic Command. The meta looks like it is slowing down, and it is one of our best cards in slower match-ups especially against BGx. It's probably our biggest source of card advantage as well. I agree that it's bad against aggro, but at least then the bounce + draw or tap + draw is relevant for Geist getting through. I'd say it's a 1-2 of, but never more.
i will say this about cryptics... it is such a crucial card against other non blue mid range decks.. particularly abzan coco, kiki chord, gbx and i think it is playable against aggro decks... i can see how having it in your opening makes it a clunky draw... but after you get to 4 mana there isn't a better top deck since a lot of times it is a damage race....
now the number of cryptics i've always felt was right was dependant on how many other blue decks are in the format... this was more from my twin days and when twin was popular 1 was probably correct...
i would say the format is very much medium speed ... gbx is very popular... as are the chord decks.. so you definitely would need 1 for those matchups.... and cryptic isn't a bad draw against aggro since it helps turn the corner... i play 2 and have had good success with it but i probably play a different version than the rest....
i would say the format is very much medium speed ... gbx is very popular... as are the chord decks.. so you definitely would need 1 for those matchups.... and cryptic isn't a bad draw against aggro since it helps turn the corner... i play 2 and have had good success with it but i probably play a different version than the rest....
I disagre. Serum Visions is good in this deck regardless of your playstile. If you want to burn them out, Visions will give you more chances of finding that burn spell and less chances to mana flood. If you need a Geist or a creature, Visions will give you more chances of finding it. Visions will give you more chances of drawing whatever you need. We do not lose tempo by casting it turn 1 or 2. And even in later turns, it will allow you to set up plays when played alongside another card or two. I don't see how without Visions "you topdeck gas", in fact, you are more likely to topdeck lands when you need gas, and so on. And again, if you need a Bolt to close the game out, you're happier to have a Visions in hand than most other cards, as your chances to hit that burn spells in time will increase dramatically.
I disagree with 2 points here.
You are correct in stating that visions helps reduce mana flood. But it draws you the card before you scry 2, so it costs U to replace itself. Sometimes that one mana counts. If you are trying to close the game out fast then I would rather top deck another burn spell (in the same spot as visions) then visions. Visions is great at setting up when you will be turning the corner, but if you have already done so and need a bolt right now (not a bolt next turn) it is simply worse because it makes you wait for it.
Visions is anti tempo. I cannot stress that enough. Turn 1 colonnade or spell snare is probably the best play we have. Turn 1 visions means we will probably be shocking ourselves. So if we don't want to do that, then when do we play it? Turn 2 we want remand/leak/lightning helix up. Turn 3 we want to be dropping geist if able. So turn 4? At that point I'd rather spend my mana protecting geist or snap remanding. I certainly do not want to be scrying 2 and praying I hit a land because I'm running only 22 lands. If we were talking about preordain I would agree with you. Preordain would be an instant include. But this is serum visions. The scry comes after, meaning the opportunity of the card effects later turns. It is anti tempo. That is the nature of anti tempo: spending early turns to help future ones. I'm arguing (and have been for quite some pages in this forum now) that if you prefer the controlling route then serum visions is great. If you like the speed potential that this deck has once it does turn the corner, then serum visions is significantly worse.
I disagre. Serum Visions is good in this deck regardless of your playstile. If you want to burn them out, Visions will give you more chances of finding that burn spell and less chances to mana flood. If you need a Geist or a creature, Visions will give you more chances of finding it. Visions will give you more chances of drawing whatever you need. We do not lose tempo by casting it turn 1 or 2. And even in later turns, it will allow you to set up plays when played alongside another card or two. I don't see how without Visions "you topdeck gas", in fact, you are more likely to topdeck lands when you need gas, and so on. And again, if you need a Bolt to close the game out, you're happier to have a Visions in hand than most other cards, as your chances to hit that burn spells in time will increase dramatically.
I disagree with 2 points here.
You are correct in stating that visions helps reduce mana flood. But it draws you the card before you scry 2, so it costs U to replace itself. Sometimes that one mana counts. If you are trying to close the game out fast then I would rather top deck another burn spell (in the same spot as visions) then visions. Visions is great at setting up when you will be turning the corner, but if you have already done so and need a bolt right now (not a bolt next turn) it is simply worse because it makes you wait for it.
Visions is anti tempo. I cannot stress that enough. Turn 1 colonnade or spell snare is probably the best play we have. Turn 1 visions means we will probably be shocking ourselves. So if we don't want to do that, then when do we play it? Turn 2 we want remand/leak/lightning helix up. Turn 3 we want to be dropping geist if able. So turn 4? At that point I'd rather spend my mana protecting geist or snap remanding. I certainly do not want to be scrying 2 and praying I hit a land because I'm running only 22 lands. If we were talking about preordain I would agree with you. Preordain would be an instant include. But this is serum visions. The scry comes after, meaning the opportunity of the card effects later turns. It is anti tempo. That is the nature of anti tempo: spending early turns to help future ones. I'm arguing (and have been for quite some pages in this forum now) that if you prefer the controlling route then serum visions is great. If you like the speed potential that this deck has once it does turn the corner, then serum visions is significantly worse.
i will agree that serum is anti-tempo but if you're playing 23 lands the only reason that is possible is because of serum... so it's not as simple as replacing serum with just another card... 4 serum replaces 2 lands plus whatever 2 cards you were planning to include....
in a midrange deck especially one that runs counterspells you're going to be in very different kinds of games and you need to hit the relevant parts of your deck... if you're running a bunch of remands or mana leaks this is especially relevant after turn 4...
If you run more mana, the need to make your mana more consistent goes away. Don't keep 1 land hands is another. Don't crack fetches to thin the deck if you have another land you can play is another.
Serum Visions isn't something I ever want to be doing, it's something to do if there is nothing else to do and those sort of things are better when they're instant speed, particularly in a deck like this.
t1 I want to remove something they play, drop a tapped land (colonnade) or fetch an untapped shocked. If I'm on the draw Spell Snare is also great here. That gives me a lot of options for what I want to be doing t1.
t2 I want to remove something they play or Remand.
t3 I'm dropping a Geist or I'm hanging out for removal/clique/electrolyze.
t4 I generally aim to play Resto Angel, or I'm using Snapcasters.
t5 I drop bombs.
t6 I hopefully curve into Colonnade or offload any Burn left in my hand to kill them outright. I'm hoping to win around t6.
Against a non-creature based Combo or something like Tron instead of removal I'm burning them every turn on curve when I'm not playing creatures to try win as quickly as possible. Against a lot of decks there are also optimal plays based on sideboard options like Stony Silence. Cantrips are always just a "if things are not working out," play, you're wasting mana that could be doing something like Remand/Snare or Burn. Cantrips are better in decks that use Delve and decks that use Delver. They're better in decks that need to dig for a specific card as well. They don't actually fit the gameplan on this deck.
I've won a Grand Prix trial playing Jeskai Geist. I have won FNM multiple times playing Jeskai Geist against good players.
A big part of a reason not to cut lands for cantrips is it reduces the amount of lands you average in your starting hand. Yes visions let's you keep more mana screwed hands, but it could be a mana screwed hand because that vision would have been a land if you were not running visions.
I still feel that taking an early turn away from the plan sabin frost noted above hurts the overall gameplay.
I still can find no good reason not to run Visions.
"Can't find the right turn to cast it" is, as I said, a very poor reason not to run it.
The gameplan you're giving is simplistic and doesn't cover the majority of scenarios. For example against draw-go control decks you have nothing to remove or to counter in the first turns and Serum Visions is exactly what you want to be doing there. Another example, against combo decks you don't want to tap out for a Geist on turn 3 or for a bomb on turn 5 usually. Finding the right answer to their combo by casting a Visions is on the other hand a very good thing to be doing. I could go on and on.
This deck can certainly work without Visions, but it's hard to argue that the card is unplayable in the deck 'cause you can't find the right turn to cast it.
It's not a poor reason at all. If you don't have a turn in your gameplan where it's optimal, it doesn't fit the gameplan, it's just there.
It's a fairly simplistic deck. It's remove all the creatures they play and swing with Geist. If they don't play creatures or you don't see Geist you burn them in the face and rely on evasion from Clique/Angel/Manland. Remand helps delay the game to achieve this. That is how this deck plays. It's not Jeskai Control, it wants to actively win the game and put them on a clock. If you're playing slow you're better off playing Control.
The example you gave about Draw-Go Control is horrible as well. One that's a very, very small percentage of the meta. Secondly playing a cantrip is not the correct play there, the correct play would be either playing a manland where it wont hurt the rest of your curve or burn them. You want to race them and essentially aggro them down. It's the same vs. linear combo you're trying to play as fast as you can before they win.
Against Combo the priority is removal if they are a creature based combo like Abzan Company. If they are not, and they are a linear Combo like Storm/Tooth and Nail/Instant Reanimator you absolutely do want to tapout for Geist or play Clique to disrupt their hand. You need to race them. We're not Control, we don't run Mana Leak and Dispel and get into counterspell wars. We might have options for them post-board but mainboard the way you beat Linear Combo is go too fast for them and hope they don't have the instant win godhand. Digging for the answer you're giving up critical mana which gives them exactly what they want to go off, time.
Serum Visions might make you feel like it's doing a lot if your deck is built poorly or your opponents aren't good at executing their gameplans but it's not where this deck wants to be. Visions is delve fuel, Visions is for digging for combo pieces or controlling the top card of your library when you want a Delver to flip. Visions isn't Brainstorm, it can't be used at Instant speed, there is no Force of Will and you can't put cards from your hand onto your library and shuffle them away with a fetch. All it does is replace itself at a cost of mana, mana equals tempo. It replaces itself and it lets you scry which can be useful, but not more useful than answering a threat or executing your gameplan.
I'd like to see your results with the deck as well. If you go on MTG Top 8 under UWr Midrange you see my first place.
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Congratulations! That's some excellent news!
Your deck is essentially what I've been building for the past year, card for card, minus a few small differences:
+1 Avacyn
+2 Remand
-2 Mana Leak
+1 Celestial Colonnade
-1 Seachrome Coast
+1 Eiganjo Castle
-1 Steam Vents
So I think the 2 Avacyn with 22 lands is a bit much, even with the cantrips. I know there was a discussion on the previous page and I read it all, but I think that the top end is just a little bit too hard with 2 Avacyn. I'm wondering if you ever ran into problems during the tournament, assuming you ran this list.
I also ran 2 Mana Leaks instead of Remands but I think with 22 lands (which I am now definitely following) 4 Remand has to be correct.
I disagree a bit on 4 Colonnades because I don't like too many lands that come into play tapped in an aggressive list. I can see the argument for running 4 since by the time Colonnades become relevant you want to be drawing as many as possible, but I'm going to try a Seachrome Coast in its place for now.
The Castle I am considering picking up but I was wondering about how good it has been for you and why you weren't running the second Steam Vents. I've run into problems getting my colors during playtesting.
P.S. I wish Avacyn was only $20... I should've preordered her...
1x Bloodstained Mire
3x Celestial Colonnade
1x Eiganjo Castle
4x Flooded Strand
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
2x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
2x Mana Leak
4x Path to Exile
4x Remand
2x Spell Snare
3x Geist of Saint Traft
3x Restoration Angel
4x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Batterskull
1x Celestial Purge
1x Dispel
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Kor Firewalker
1x Spellskite
1x Stony Silence
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Thing in the Ice
1x Timely Reinforcements
1x Wear / Tear
Thank you!
Nice work. I haven't gotten around to testing Archangel Avacyn yet, what are your thoughts?
After hundreds upon hundreds of games, I think the correct number of Cryptic Commands is 0-1, unless the meta is in such a place where more really is that good. My personal preference is to try and keep one in the list, but with the format as aggressive as it is right now, a case can be made for 0.
I have gone back to a one of Counterflux in the SB, this can help vs Scapeshift.
I really like Ojutai for finishing games, I'm actually digging 15 creatures right now. 4 Snappy, 4 Geist, 2 Clique, 3 Resto, 2 Ojutai. It packs good punch. I'm still at 24 land though. I'm not a big fan of the decks running 18-22 and packing cantrips. Outside of Remand/Electrolyze I tend to avoid Cantrips as while they give you some consistency, you lose tempo, I prefer to play fast.
Against Scapeshift I use Leyline of Sanctity which helps against Jund/Junk and Burn as well. I have a Spell Pierce maindeck as well which is pretty sweet, even if they try protect the Scapeshift cast Spell Pierce with your own Remand forcing them to recast their counterspell almost always stops it.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11778&d=267227&f=MO
The deck has been improved since then. I dropped an Electrolyze for a second Clique. I dropped Sacred Foundry for a Sulfur Falls (useful vs. Choke) and my sideboard has completely changed. That SB was during the Eldrazi meta. My new SB is a lot better. One non-Eldrazi change was I just swapped out Crumble for 2 GQ. I find they help against Jund/Infect for stopping manlands, I just swap them 2 for 2 with Minamo/Slayers.
On Ojutai being a 5 drop without Flash, Geist is a 3 drop without Flash. You treat it exactly the same as you'd treat Geist just when you have more land. It has Hexproof so it doesn't just die to Terminate after you cast it either. Ojutai doesn't need Minamo + Stronghold they just make it broken, even without them you can untap him with Resto Angel if they try remove him, he'll survive a turn due to Hexproof and his ability ends games as it lets you dig for burn spells to finish someone.
Minamo + Stronghold work outside of Ojutai as well. Minamo is a Blue land that doesn't get hit by Choke for one. Stronghold can let you pump something to win trades (lets a Clique kill a Resto Angel or Tasigur for example), it can also let you drop something and give it Haste. Even just having Stronghold turn Resto Angel into a 5/4 Vigilance flyer is impressive. I board them out for GQs when relevant and don't get stuck with Ghost Quarters when they're irrelevant.
Counterflux is a counterspell, which is fine but it's just that. You need to leave mana open to counterspell. Leyline you force them to deal with it while you execute your gameplan. It pretty much wins that matchup when you have it in your opening hand and it's invaluable against Jund/Junk as it stops Liliana forcing you to sac the Geist.
I've tried less lands, it's always awful, I always stick to 24 with 4 Remand, 2 Electrolyze. I don't run Visions, I hate that card in this deck as I've stated numerous times in this thread.
2) CounterFlux is a very versatile sideboard card. It is a hard no and great in many matchups.
3) My problem with the 22 land but lots of cantrips debate is that when you take an early turn to play a card to dig for your land drops you are missing the tempo of either killing an opponent's creature, landing a geist, or countering their spell. with the exception of remand and electrolyze, I see very little need for can tripping in midrange tempo decks. I cannot imagine running 22 lands and 5 drops unless I'm tron. I think 24 is the right number. I used to run 25 but cut one for a shadow of doubt and am loving it.
Your list looks typical, although I would make a few changes. Geist kills quick once he hits. once I land him I do everything I can to clear the path for him to attack safely. and in a lot of cases I will attack in, knowing he will die just to deal 4 to their face. this is not a control deck and the lightning bolts can also help close out games as well.
I would cut a cryptic command to run the 4th geist. and cut ajani for the 4th lightning helix. you could also try boros charm instead of elspeth to speed your clock up if you'd like.
Regarding serum visions. I've tested without and with it. Without it, you top deck gas which is good in a proactive list. With it you can keep more hands and can dig for sideboard hate. That said, I'm running 1 right now and it might be the worst card in my deck. If your playstyle is controlling rather than "burn them out" like mine, then it will be better for you. I like this deck because it allows me to be reactive in the early turns until I land a threat and then turn the corner guns a blazing, like John Wayne kicking in a saloon door or something crazy. That is how geist is when he sticks: game over.
I don't really think the 4th Geist is necessary. Depending on how you build this deck, it can really be a control deck. The list that @nomemorial posted shares 70/75 cards with the typical UWR control build. I think you're right that there are two different ways to play the deck, which is why it is so flexible compared to a pure control build. You can go in gun's blazing against other control and combo decks or you can play control yourself against aggro and midrange. For that reason, I think 4 Geist's is never a good idea because it takes away from the flexibility of the deck. When you are forced to play the control role, sitting with two Geists in hand is really a burden.
I'm surprised people are suggesting cutting Cryptic Command. The meta looks like it is slowing down, and it is one of our best cards in slower match-ups especially against BGx. It's probably our biggest source of card advantage as well. I agree that it's bad against aggro, but at least then the bounce + draw or tap + draw is relevant for Geist getting through. I'd say it's a 1-2 of, but never more.
now the number of cryptics i've always felt was right was dependant on how many other blue decks are in the format... this was more from my twin days and when twin was popular 1 was probably correct...
i would say the format is very much medium speed ... gbx is very popular... as are the chord decks.. so you definitely would need 1 for those matchups.... and cryptic isn't a bad draw against aggro since it helps turn the corner... i play 2 and have had good success with it but i probably play a different version than the rest....
Would you mind posting your list?
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells
4 Serum Visions
2 Remand
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
3 Angelic Destiny
2 Logic Knot
1 Electrolyze
2 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
3 Celestial Colonnade
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Mystic Gate
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Stony Silence
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Dispel
2 Negate
1 Meddling Mage
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Wear // Tear
1 Surgical Extraction
i do generally board out at least 1 cryptic against aggro and both on the draw... but having 2 is really good against the green based decks...
I disagree with 2 points here.
You are correct in stating that visions helps reduce mana flood. But it draws you the card before you scry 2, so it costs U to replace itself. Sometimes that one mana counts. If you are trying to close the game out fast then I would rather top deck another burn spell (in the same spot as visions) then visions. Visions is great at setting up when you will be turning the corner, but if you have already done so and need a bolt right now (not a bolt next turn) it is simply worse because it makes you wait for it.
Visions is anti tempo. I cannot stress that enough. Turn 1 colonnade or spell snare is probably the best play we have. Turn 1 visions means we will probably be shocking ourselves. So if we don't want to do that, then when do we play it? Turn 2 we want remand/leak/lightning helix up. Turn 3 we want to be dropping geist if able. So turn 4? At that point I'd rather spend my mana protecting geist or snap remanding. I certainly do not want to be scrying 2 and praying I hit a land because I'm running only 22 lands. If we were talking about preordain I would agree with you. Preordain would be an instant include. But this is serum visions. The scry comes after, meaning the opportunity of the card effects later turns. It is anti tempo. That is the nature of anti tempo: spending early turns to help future ones. I'm arguing (and have been for quite some pages in this forum now) that if you prefer the controlling route then serum visions is great. If you like the speed potential that this deck has once it does turn the corner, then serum visions is significantly worse.
i will agree that serum is anti-tempo but if you're playing 23 lands the only reason that is possible is because of serum... so it's not as simple as replacing serum with just another card... 4 serum replaces 2 lands plus whatever 2 cards you were planning to include....
in a midrange deck especially one that runs counterspells you're going to be in very different kinds of games and you need to hit the relevant parts of your deck... if you're running a bunch of remands or mana leaks this is especially relevant after turn 4...
Serum Visions isn't something I ever want to be doing, it's something to do if there is nothing else to do and those sort of things are better when they're instant speed, particularly in a deck like this.
t1 I want to remove something they play, drop a tapped land (colonnade) or fetch an untapped shocked. If I'm on the draw Spell Snare is also great here. That gives me a lot of options for what I want to be doing t1.
t2 I want to remove something they play or Remand.
t3 I'm dropping a Geist or I'm hanging out for removal/clique/electrolyze.
t4 I generally aim to play Resto Angel, or I'm using Snapcasters.
t5 I drop bombs.
t6 I hopefully curve into Colonnade or offload any Burn left in my hand to kill them outright. I'm hoping to win around t6.
Against a non-creature based Combo or something like Tron instead of removal I'm burning them every turn on curve when I'm not playing creatures to try win as quickly as possible. Against a lot of decks there are also optimal plays based on sideboard options like Stony Silence. Cantrips are always just a "if things are not working out," play, you're wasting mana that could be doing something like Remand/Snare or Burn. Cantrips are better in decks that use Delve and decks that use Delver. They're better in decks that need to dig for a specific card as well. They don't actually fit the gameplan on this deck.
I've won a Grand Prix trial playing Jeskai Geist. I have won FNM multiple times playing Jeskai Geist against good players.
I still feel that taking an early turn away from the plan sabin frost noted above hurts the overall gameplay.
It's not a poor reason at all. If you don't have a turn in your gameplan where it's optimal, it doesn't fit the gameplan, it's just there.
It's a fairly simplistic deck. It's remove all the creatures they play and swing with Geist. If they don't play creatures or you don't see Geist you burn them in the face and rely on evasion from Clique/Angel/Manland. Remand helps delay the game to achieve this. That is how this deck plays. It's not Jeskai Control, it wants to actively win the game and put them on a clock. If you're playing slow you're better off playing Control.
The example you gave about Draw-Go Control is horrible as well. One that's a very, very small percentage of the meta. Secondly playing a cantrip is not the correct play there, the correct play would be either playing a manland where it wont hurt the rest of your curve or burn them. You want to race them and essentially aggro them down. It's the same vs. linear combo you're trying to play as fast as you can before they win.
Against Combo the priority is removal if they are a creature based combo like Abzan Company. If they are not, and they are a linear Combo like Storm/Tooth and Nail/Instant Reanimator you absolutely do want to tapout for Geist or play Clique to disrupt their hand. You need to race them. We're not Control, we don't run Mana Leak and Dispel and get into counterspell wars. We might have options for them post-board but mainboard the way you beat Linear Combo is go too fast for them and hope they don't have the instant win godhand. Digging for the answer you're giving up critical mana which gives them exactly what they want to go off, time.
Serum Visions might make you feel like it's doing a lot if your deck is built poorly or your opponents aren't good at executing their gameplans but it's not where this deck wants to be. Visions is delve fuel, Visions is for digging for combo pieces or controlling the top card of your library when you want a Delver to flip. Visions isn't Brainstorm, it can't be used at Instant speed, there is no Force of Will and you can't put cards from your hand onto your library and shuffle them away with a fetch. All it does is replace itself at a cost of mana, mana equals tempo. It replaces itself and it lets you scry which can be useful, but not more useful than answering a threat or executing your gameplan.
I'd like to see your results with the deck as well. If you go on MTG Top 8 under UWr Midrange you see my first place.