As far as Dig replacement. Nothing really. The card was very very good. Sphinx Rev is still a pretty decent late game card. I think Anticipate also does a good job of providing some selection early and late. It's nice that it is cheap and instant speed.
Keranos seems good again. Grixis can't deal with it. Jund can't deal with it. He's slow but provides some inevitability against the decks that attrition our Restos and Colonnades. He's not hot vs the aggressive decks, for sure, though I needed to make room in the side for Geists.
I'm not opposed to a singleton Kiki. I considered that. Seemed like it was bad vs the same decks (aggro), and not as reliable vs the midrange decks as Keranos, so I ditched it. That slot might be better off as a 2nd Clique, but it's nice having access to a spell that can go over the top in the long game.
St Traft is just not good at the moment. Most decks play bigger and better creatures, and a Snappy trades with him.
Yep, that's it. This deck doens't feel solid enough on the board. When you win, you usually win like a sort of weird Burn deck. We're not able to play a controlling role in most MUs because we lack weight and size on the battlefield. We also have a fragile manabase. Jessy Hefner's TOP 8 list at SCG Open Cincinnati tries to answer these problems by cutting red, cutting Geist and running more weight (fullset of Restos, Dragonlord Ojutai, Blade Splicer, Finks...). The fact that such a list that doesn't even run the fullset of Snaps made it to a top8 in a 650 people tournament while Geist doesn't even get close to it to me proves Geist of Saint Traft himself is part of the problem. He just gets outclassed by too many creatures running around. It's not worth it to have a deck built around this card right now. UWr Midrange needs different wincons (but as I said I'm also afraid running this combination of colors itself, for a midrange deck, is very hard to justify).
I've seen you guys posting about how bad Geist is, and I think about replying, but I don't really feel like arguing the point because I'm not going to convince anyone. But that being said...
Geist is bad sometimes sure, but if your plan to defeat him is to throw a big butt in front of him, that just isn't a great plan. The deck is designed to beat that. I win more games with Geist than any other card in the deck. He shuts off all removal, and forces decks to do awkward things to try and contain him. He is literally the best card in Jeskai Midrange, and is the only reason the deck can operate on an Aggro or a Control axis. I'm not trying to say its better than Grixis or Twin against the meta, but it sure as hell beats the crap out of those decks.
The reason we don't see Geist everywhere is because everyone is convinced the deck isn't viable, and they're wrong. Is it the best deck? No, likely not. Do I think it could win a GP? Sure in the right hands, if it dodges it's terrible matchups. Which by the way is what basically every deck has to do to win a GP. Winning a big event involves a ton of luck. Simply put, I think we'd see more of this deck if more people played it. Geist is a badass, and I wont be cutting him anytime soon.
St Traft is just not good at the moment. Most decks play bigger and better creatures, and a Snappy trades with him.
Yep, that's it. This deck doens't feel solid enough on the board. When you win, you usually win like a sort of weird Burn deck. We're not able to play a controlling role in most MUs because we lack weight and size on the battlefield. We also have a fragile manabase. Jessy Hefner's TOP 8 list at SCG Open Cincinnati tries to answer these problems by cutting red, cutting Geist and running more weight (fullset of Restos, Dragonlord Ojutai, Blade Splicer, Finks...). The fact that such a list that doesn't even run the fullset of Snaps made it to a top8 in a 650 people tournament while Geist doesn't even get close to it to me proves Geist of Saint Traft himself is part of the problem. He just gets outclassed by too many creatures running around. It's not worth it to have a deck built around this card right now. UWr Midrange needs different wincons (but as I said I'm also afraid running this combination of colors itself, for a midrange deck, is very hard to justify).
I've seen you guys posting about how bad Geist is, and I think about replying, but I don't really feel like arguing the point because I'm not going to convince anyone. But that being said...
Geist is bad sometimes sure, but if your plan to defeat him is to throw a big butt in front of him, that just isn't a great plan. The deck is designed to beat that. I win more games with Geist than any other card in the deck. He shuts off all removal, and forces decks to do awkward things to try and contain him. He is literally the best card in Jeskai Midrange, and is the only reason the deck can operate on an Aggro or a Control axis. I'm not trying to say its better than Grixis or Twin against the meta, but it sure as hell beats the crap out of those decks.
The reason we don't see Geist everywhere is because everyone is convinced the deck isn't viable, and they're wrong. Is it the best deck? No, likely not. Do I think it could win a GP? Sure in the right hands, if it dodges it's terrible matchups. Which by the way is what basically every deck has to do to win a GP. Winning a big event involves a ton of luck. Simply put, I think we'd see more of this deck if more people played it. Geist is a badass, and I wont be cutting him anytime soon.
GreatNate, I was about to post that as well. I've always felt this deck is very playable, and it's cool to see it do well there. The deck does require learning how to make more complex decisions regarding when to go control vs aggro. Sometimes you throw burn at the face and forget about card advantage. Other times, you have to go more controlling. Always some tough decisions.
Also, let's remember Modern is a very diverse format. This deck is great against tons of the random decks in Modern, even if BGx is a hard matchup. It has a great matchup against several tier 1 decks, including Affinity and UR Twin.
Even against UR Twin we're not in a very good shape, since all they need to beat us is a Dispel or a Spell Pierce and they run many. Not to mention our little problem with Blood Moon.
Also, I think we are the ones that need to do awkward things when a Tasigur/Angler is slammed on the board by the way, not the opposite. Our only decent answer is Path (4/60) and they draw way more than we do. At least, whenever I have Geist in play and my opponent has a Tarmogoyf, Siege Rhino, Angler or Tasigur, I've got to tell you, I'm usually the one feeling the need to do awkward things like sacrificing a Geist, theoretically the best card of the deck, and a burn spell, to trade with one of their creatures.
The Aller, I agree with your second point regarding dealing with x/4s and x/5s, but I disagree regarding UR twin. I think that matchup is fantastic. I've gone 6-1 against it over the past couple months of PPTQs/WMCQ and the like. Vendilion Clique helps out that matchup a lot. I don't see it in a lot of lists for some reason, but it fits exactly what this deck is trying to do. It's exactly the type of aggro-control card the deck wants. Turn 3 draw step Clique disrupts their combo and/or takes up their turn to clear the way for a turn 4 Geist. They have a very hard time dealing with it. We have tons of way to deal with flashed in Snaps or Pestermites, so that is not an issue. Usually we just end up Geist/burning them out way faster than they can combo us out, as long as we're smart about keeping up counters at the right times and sequencing properly. (Sequencing especially on turns 3-4 is especially important.)
Dealing with x/4s and x/5s is a pain, I agree. Paths are overloaded. Gotta rely on getting lucky drawing some combination of Snaps/Paths that they don't force us to discard. I have Snap+Bolt'ed or Snap+Helix'ed big Tasigurs/Goyfs/Anglers/Rhinos more than I'd like. It's still a 1-for-1 at its core, but it uses up one of our best cards (Snap) without getting extra value. It's also easy for them to interact with that plan (Murderous Cut, Terminate, Bolt, Abrupt Decay, Dispel/Spell Snare [Grixis]). Celestial Purge (and even Valorous Stance) out of the board seems good there. We are often just a burn deck in those matchups--just a race to 20, throwing a lot of cards away in the process. Geist sometimes needs to suicide attack at some point in these games. (Depending on draws, it is possible to become a control deck against BGx, though. Especially if you're running Cryptics to lock them out from landing Liliana or x/5's late game. I've found that to be less common, though.)
Still, in the BGx matchup, I actually think the toughest part is Liliana of the Veil, not the big guys.
Little protection (as playing too many counters is bad atm), strong threats that can operate on their own and are hard to deal with, and outs to hard MUs like Boros Charm countering Abrupt Decay or Dealing with Liliana of the Veil at first sight, and the always good last 4 damage or combat trick to save Geist (double strike against your X/2 or indestructible).
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Little protection (as playing too many counters is bad atm), strong threats that can operate on their own and are hard to deal with, and outs to hard MUs like Boros Charm countering Abrupt Decay or Dealing with Liliana of the Veil at first sight, and the always good last 4 damage or combat trick to save Geist (double strike against your X/2 or indestructible).
Interesting list. Let me know how the Boros Charms work out. I've considered running it as a 1-of or maybe 2-of if it is amazing. In the board, I'd run Stony Silence for sure and maybe Kor Firewalker depending on how much burn you're dealing with. Stony Silence is awesome right now. I don't think all of the high cmc wincons are necessary in your board. (Interesting choice to have 2 Thunderbreaks main.) I'd cut to 2 of the 4 finishers in your board. Why not 4 Snapcaster Mages? He's pretty much always been amazing from my experience, and I would never run fewer than 4. That's just my experience.
Little protection (as playing too many counters is bad atm), strong threats that can operate on their own and are hard to deal with, and outs to hard MUs like Boros Charm countering Abrupt Decay or Dealing with Liliana of the Veil at first sight, and the always good last 4 damage or combat trick to save Geist (double strike against your X/2 or indestructible).
Interesting list. Let me know how the Boros Charms work out. I've considered running it as a 1-of or maybe 2-of if it is amazing. In the board, I'd run Stony Silence for sure and maybe Kor Firewalker depending on how much burn you're dealing with. Stony Silence is awesome right now. I don't think all of the high cmc wincons are necessary in your board. (Interesting choice to have 2 Thunderbreaks main.) I'd cut to 2 of the 4 finishers in your board. Why not 4 Snapcaster Mages? He's pretty much always been amazing from my experience, and I would never run fewer than 4. That's just my experience.
I'l be testing this list from next week (though I might play it this Modern FNM too). Keranos, Ajani, Wurmcoil and Chandra are amazing against BGx, and the walkers are also awesome against Tron, which we can outplay by with remands and cryptics until we can finish off with any of our fast clocks + burn. Affinity is not something I am very wary of with the MB + side choices. If I were playing UWR control then Stony would be a 2-3 of in my board, but having so many burns and quick clocks doesn't seem necessary (though I might be proven wrong in play). So I'll start my testing from this list and will improve it as the games go by.
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Modern like the fraction of Legacy it is meant to be, is comprised of a lot of decks. To say something isn't tier 1 doesn't mean it can't win. There are a lot of decks that have a shot if they run hot and get the right MU. However, if you want to look at EV of playing a Tier 2-3 deck vs a Tier 1 deck in a tournament, the gulf is wide between them.
UWR used to be tier 1. Simple fact is that it no longer is tier 1.
I think the community being down on UWR and Geist is a product of playing enough to see how much the deck struggles to win against some very common matchups. Even die hard guys like Shaun Mclaren seem off the deck in modern. At the Players Championship he went with UR delver instead. This is after sticking to his Jeskai guns for months. Even wrote an article in June about Jeskai on SCG.
Geist specifically might not be the best mainboard threat. Personally, I've found he's been seriously underperforming. I've gone from 4-0ing the LGS scene, to struggling to pickup wins in casual games vs brews. I'm willing to try something different so I can still play Jeskai, as it's a deck that I really enjoy playing.
Btw Interesting midrange brew that Mclaren posted in that June article btw:
Not sure how much he tested it (he seems more solidly in the control camp), as it seems rough around the edges. But maybe this is the type of shell midrange needs to move towards to keep our edge.
I'm currently having success with UWR Geist. I wont a PPTQ, I'll be playing it at the RPTQ, and I'm doing well (by my standards) on MTGO. On MTGO I have played all 8-mans this month, I have a 62% win rate over 50 matches, and 71% over my last 24. I've won the most games with with Geist, by far. I'm currently on a 9-0 streak, the last 7 of which were won with Geist.
The deck I've lost the most to is actually Affinity, I'm currently 2-4 against the deck. 3 of the 4 losses were to an unanswered Etched Champion, and one was a play mistake. This data is useful to me because it makes me realize that I likely need to tighten my play up a little bit in that matchup, and I want to include a second way to deal with Etched Champion. It's either going to be a 2nd Shatterstorm or Supreme Verdict. Considering the prvelance of the deck, it's likely the former. Sadly, I havent drawn Shatterstorm once in the 6 games.
I'm 0-3 vs Bogles, screw that matchup. It's a small part of the meta and I am not going to devote any slots to it. Even if I did, Id have to devote so much that Id screw myself in other places.
I'm 1-2 vs Amulet Bloom, it's winnable but not in our favor.
3-0 vs Grixis, with no games lost. (considered tier 1)
3-0 vs UR Twin with no games lost. (considered tier 1)
3-0 vs Merfolk, no games lost. (considered tier 1)
2-0 vs Slivers, no games lost.
2-0 vs Scapeshift, no games lost.
2-0 vs UB mill, lols.
2-0 vs burn. (considered tier 1)
1-1 vs BGx. (considered tier 1)
1-1 vs living end.
1-1 vs RG Tron.
Other random stuff....
Anyway, modern is really diverse. You aren't going to play against your bad match-ups all of the time, and even when you do, you can still win them. The big dudes are sometimes scary, but often times they aren't. Sequencing is really important, I can't stress that enough.
As an example, in a recent match vs Grixis Control, he resolved a T3 Grumag, I untapped played a land and slammed Geist. He untaps and attacks (great for me, I have a faster clock and more burn, plus my helixes effectively counter his bolts). I untap, play a land, rumble in for 6, and pass the turn. I don't remember my hand exactly, but I know I had a Remand, Restoration Angel and Path. The way I was going to win isn't necessarily just killing the Gurmag... I need to try and sequence the attempt in a way that can benefit me. If I can make him fight over it on his upkeep, one of two things can happen. I path it and he has a dispel, to which I'll remand my own Path and go from there. This is ok, because even if I dont kill it, I am tying up his mana so that he cant develop his board, and also making sure that he cant counter the restoration angel which is going to save Geist next turn. This is what I mean about making them do awkward things! He cannot interact with Geist any other way, so he is forced into fighting over his Gurmag even tho it is tapping him out. The other side is that path resolves and great, Gurmag is gone and I have remand up. What happened is that I Path'd, he dispeled, I remanded, and he leaked my remand. So Gurmag lives, but I untapped, attacked, flashed resto in to save Geist, he took 4, that makes 10 from Geist, I had also bolted him earlier so he had taken 13 from me, some from his lands, and was going to take another 4 from Geist guaranteed, and maybe 3 from resto. Burn finished the job. That game ended with a Gurmag on the table, and a victory for me.
Now of course they don't always play out like that. Sometimes you don't have the path, but welcome to magic. Also, Grixis doesnt really tax out Path to exiles all that much. Abzan on the other hand does, between discard, and 4x Goyfs, 4x Rhinos, and some number of Tasigurs.
One last thing, it's important to remember that this deck IS NOT uwr control, and its almost pointless to compare them. We have tempo lines available to us that deck just doesnt have (like in my exampl). We are FAR more proactive, and can combine our burn with creatures to great effect.
In your example, it strikes me as a player not respecting Geist and making misplays as a result. For example, why he attacks in that scenario I do not know.
I want to add, that it is not unusual for a deck with a small number of players to come in an dominate a tournament. If UWR is truely well positioned, then I would expect for it come out of nowhere and Top8 something big. There will always be the die hard players, especially in a format that is more expensive. So there should always be that chance that we are wrong and some small set of players just run the tables.
I mean, there were a few premature pronouncements of its death. I mean it was dead and then it won a Players Championship. It was dead and then it won a Pro Tour. Though, worth noting that neither of those decks had Geist. Thing is, it really isn't surprising anyone this time around.
I think there is a lot of power there. We play a URx control shell with a white splash. White has some really good things to offer. But is it better than the black splash? White gets Path, Black has Terminate and Dismember. White gets Geist and Resto, Black gets Tasigur and Angler. Black also gets Kolghan's Command and Thoughtseize. We get Sphinx Rev and Colonnade, but it seems like those are too slow for the format. To a certain extent, Grixis seems to be the better control deck.
If we want to get more aggressive with Geist, we end up fighting against brick walls all day as even the control style decks are rocking a big butt. Geist is hard to deal with if you mean answer it directly. But most decks don't need to answer it. They just need to make it difficult to get more than a Exquisite Firecraft out of it.
I'm not trying to discourage people from playing UWR. I like the deck. I keep it built in paper and play it off and on still. I'm just being real here, trying to not wear rosy eye glasses about how good the deck is right now.
I feel like we really need to have a compelling reason to play white. I don't think Geist is that reason anymore. Resto, Path, Colonnade, Rev all seem like good reasons. Helix is also solid. Not sure if that's enough.
I'd say UWr geist is by far the strongest UWr deck right now (compared to control, kiki, flash, and other midrange respectively). It does however suffer from the same problem all UWr decks have: a difficulty with coming back from a boardstate where we're forced to be defensive. We run a ludicrous amount of removal and have tons of ways to get geist through which makes us able to race a lot of decks, but the moment we can not we run into trouble. Once the deck starts to stagger, it's really tough to get back up again.
I'm quite confident in saying that GreatNate is one of the better UWR Geist players around, and so even when the deck is 'poorly positioned', he's going to do relatively well with it. He's an example of how player skill and devotion to a particular strategy pays off more than deck choice, and while maybe the opponents he faces aren't pro-quality, the same goes for half the peeps at a GP.
As far as the UWR midrange deck goes, I'd feel a lot more comfortable just playing flash and jamming 4 Restos, 2 Cliques, 4 Walls and the usual suspects, with maybe a Kiki sideboard for fun or something. Evasion is what wins me games when the board gets tough, and often you can race Grixis due to the 8+ mainboard burn spells. Walls are great to brick wall early threats, and you can get a heap of value from them whatever stage of the game. That's not something I can say for Geist, because while he's usually pretty good early on, I just hate drawing them as the matches draw on.
Perhaps the Spellstutter Sprite plan is a good idea to go back to.
Jex, do you have a list? I'm on the fence with the Walls, owing to the fact that they are the only thing not flashy, so feel awkward casting T2. I've replaced them with a couple Shadow of Doubt, 4th Remand, and a 2nd Sphinx Rev. Current iteration:
If we're talking about UWr flash, I've been thinking about playing Pestermite. It's a great tempo card on its own, tapping down attackers and coming in for 2 flying damage a turn. And of course, the kiki combo can be ran as a backup plan
I think UWr midrange is a solid metagame choice right now. I have similar stats as Nate over a period of close to 80 matches. My winrate is 64%.
And geist is the key card in so many matchups. For example against grixis decks, we have answers to anglers (6 post board) but they have to block to take care of Geist.
Many matches go 2-1 and are skill intensive. You have to know every trick of the deck.
I am worried that abzan and jund decks are becoming more popular. Blue decks are not the problem, grixis control for me is about 40-50% and the other matchups are favorable(apart from u tron).
Jund is pretty 50/50.
Abzan on the other hand.... ugh.
I think UWr midrange is a solid metagame choice right now. I have similar stats as Nate over a period of close to 80 matches. My winrate is 64%.
And geist is the key card in so many matchups. For example against grixis decks, we have answers to anglers (6 post board) but they have to block to take care of Geist.
Many matches go 2-1 and are skill intensive. You have to know every trick of the deck.
I am worried that abzan and jund decks are becoming more popular. Blue decks are not the problem, grixis control for me is about 40-50% and the other matchups are favorable(apart from u tron).
Jund is pretty 50/50.
Abzan on the other hand.... ugh.
Agreed re: Jund vs Abzan. My single most feared card in these match ups is Liliana, not the big guys, though those extra big guys make Abzan tougher. What do you all do against liliana? She gets out of control way too often (maybe 30% of the time she comes down). There's a terrible mini game that always starts up when she lands. If I don't have immediate answers, it just feels horrible. Thoughts?
Also I think there's a feeling we have to be winning on board to win vs other midrange decks. That isn't true at all. I've found myself way behind on board but able to squeak through just enough evasive damage and burn to win. That's what is awesome about the deck: if we have a nice draw with tons of answers, sure, we'll just be ahead and win. If we don't, we can still win with proper sequencing. Geist becomes a burn spell here.
Agreed re: Jund vs Abzan. My single most feared card in these match ups is Liliana, not the big guys, though those extra big guys make Abzan tougher. What do you all do against liliana? She gets out of control way too often (maybe 30% of the time she comes down). There's a terrible mini game that always starts up when she lands. If I don't have immediate answers, it just feels horrible. Thoughts?
The only card versatile enough to deal with Lili as soon as she hits the table that I could finf is Boros Charm. Which also counters Abrupt Decay, and saves Geists, Walls, Cliques Snaps, whatever the main reason is to protect Geist anyway. But is protection, combat shennanigans (protection + removal with double strike), kills lili as soon as she goes +1, and 4 to the face is like an extra angel hit from geist.
Card doesn't seem good, but I believe in our colors is as good as it gets in mainboard material that is not dead in any matchup. I mean, Celestial Purge is awesome from the board, but it doesn't do anything against a lot of decks.
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I want to report back on Jeskai Charm, because it has been absolutely amazing for me so far. Every mode has its utility and each one of them is super powerful, especially the lifelink one. I love Electrolyze, but together with Geist charm is just way better, I really want to suggest you guys to try it out for a few more matches.
And speaking of Liliana, she dies to Jeskai Charm as well
EDIT: this is my list atm, although the sideboard is still somewhat experimental
I think Purge pulls its weight in the sideboard (I run 2x). Answers Lilli, black delve creatures, Rhino (or Bob if required) in BGx decks, answers Keranos/Blood Moon/Splinter Twin/Black delve creatures in Twin/Grixis Twin/Grixis Control decks.
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Modern
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
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Keranos seems good again. Grixis can't deal with it. Jund can't deal with it. He's slow but provides some inevitability against the decks that attrition our Restos and Colonnades. He's not hot vs the aggressive decks, for sure, though I needed to make room in the side for Geists.
I'm not opposed to a singleton Kiki. I considered that. Seemed like it was bad vs the same decks (aggro), and not as reliable vs the midrange decks as Keranos, so I ditched it. That slot might be better off as a 2nd Clique, but it's nice having access to a spell that can go over the top in the long game.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I figured someone already posted it, but Geist made it to a top 32 at GP Oklahoma City.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-jeskai-midrange-21605#online
I've seen you guys posting about how bad Geist is, and I think about replying, but I don't really feel like arguing the point because I'm not going to convince anyone. But that being said...
Geist is bad sometimes sure, but if your plan to defeat him is to throw a big butt in front of him, that just isn't a great plan. The deck is designed to beat that. I win more games with Geist than any other card in the deck. He shuts off all removal, and forces decks to do awkward things to try and contain him. He is literally the best card in Jeskai Midrange, and is the only reason the deck can operate on an Aggro or a Control axis. I'm not trying to say its better than Grixis or Twin against the meta, but it sure as hell beats the crap out of those decks.
The reason we don't see Geist everywhere is because everyone is convinced the deck isn't viable, and they're wrong. Is it the best deck? No, likely not. Do I think it could win a GP? Sure in the right hands, if it dodges it's terrible matchups. Which by the way is what basically every deck has to do to win a GP. Winning a big event involves a ton of luck. Simply put, I think we'd see more of this deck if more people played it. Geist is a badass, and I wont be cutting him anytime soon.
GreatNate, I was about to post that as well. I've always felt this deck is very playable, and it's cool to see it do well there. The deck does require learning how to make more complex decisions regarding when to go control vs aggro. Sometimes you throw burn at the face and forget about card advantage. Other times, you have to go more controlling. Always some tough decisions.
Also, let's remember Modern is a very diverse format. This deck is great against tons of the random decks in Modern, even if BGx is a hard matchup. It has a great matchup against several tier 1 decks, including Affinity and UR Twin.
The Aller, I agree with your second point regarding dealing with x/4s and x/5s, but I disagree regarding UR twin. I think that matchup is fantastic. I've gone 6-1 against it over the past couple months of PPTQs/WMCQ and the like. Vendilion Clique helps out that matchup a lot. I don't see it in a lot of lists for some reason, but it fits exactly what this deck is trying to do. It's exactly the type of aggro-control card the deck wants. Turn 3 draw step Clique disrupts their combo and/or takes up their turn to clear the way for a turn 4 Geist. They have a very hard time dealing with it. We have tons of way to deal with flashed in Snaps or Pestermites, so that is not an issue. Usually we just end up Geist/burning them out way faster than they can combo us out, as long as we're smart about keeping up counters at the right times and sequencing properly. (Sequencing especially on turns 3-4 is especially important.)
Dealing with x/4s and x/5s is a pain, I agree. Paths are overloaded. Gotta rely on getting lucky drawing some combination of Snaps/Paths that they don't force us to discard. I have Snap+Bolt'ed or Snap+Helix'ed big Tasigurs/Goyfs/Anglers/Rhinos more than I'd like. It's still a 1-for-1 at its core, but it uses up one of our best cards (Snap) without getting extra value. It's also easy for them to interact with that plan (Murderous Cut, Terminate, Bolt, Abrupt Decay, Dispel/Spell Snare [Grixis]). Celestial Purge (and even Valorous Stance) out of the board seems good there. We are often just a burn deck in those matchups--just a race to 20, throwing a lot of cards away in the process. Geist sometimes needs to suicide attack at some point in these games. (Depending on draws, it is possible to become a control deck against BGx, though. Especially if you're running Cryptics to lock them out from landing Liliana or x/5's late game. I've found that to be less common, though.)
Still, in the BGx matchup, I actually think the toughest part is Liliana of the Veil, not the big guys.
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Path to Exile
2x Spell Snare
3x Snapcaster Mage
4x Remand
2x Boros Charm
3x Lightning Helix
4x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Electrolyze
3x Restoration Angel
2x Thunderbreak Regent
2x Cryptic Command
3x Celestial Colonnade
4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Desolate Lighthouse
2x Island
1x Plains
1x Mountain
1x Rending Volley
2x Dispel
1x Negate
2x Wear // Tear
2x Rest in Peace
1x Firespout
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Chandra Pyromaster
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Shatterstorm
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Little protection (as playing too many counters is bad atm), strong threats that can operate on their own and are hard to deal with, and outs to hard MUs like Boros Charm countering Abrupt Decay or Dealing with Liliana of the Veil at first sight, and the always good last 4 damage or combat trick to save Geist (double strike against your X/2 or indestructible).
Interesting list. Let me know how the Boros Charms work out. I've considered running it as a 1-of or maybe 2-of if it is amazing. In the board, I'd run Stony Silence for sure and maybe Kor Firewalker depending on how much burn you're dealing with. Stony Silence is awesome right now. I don't think all of the high cmc wincons are necessary in your board. (Interesting choice to have 2 Thunderbreaks main.) I'd cut to 2 of the 4 finishers in your board. Why not 4 Snapcaster Mages? He's pretty much always been amazing from my experience, and I would never run fewer than 4. That's just my experience.
I'l be testing this list from next week (though I might play it this Modern FNM too). Keranos, Ajani, Wurmcoil and Chandra are amazing against BGx, and the walkers are also awesome against Tron, which we can outplay by with remands and cryptics until we can finish off with any of our fast clocks + burn. Affinity is not something I am very wary of with the MB + side choices. If I were playing UWR control then Stony would be a 2-3 of in my board, but having so many burns and quick clocks doesn't seem necessary (though I might be proven wrong in play). So I'll start my testing from this list and will improve it as the games go by.
UWR used to be tier 1. Simple fact is that it no longer is tier 1.
I think the community being down on UWR and Geist is a product of playing enough to see how much the deck struggles to win against some very common matchups. Even die hard guys like Shaun Mclaren seem off the deck in modern. At the Players Championship he went with UR delver instead. This is after sticking to his Jeskai guns for months. Even wrote an article in June about Jeskai on SCG.
Geist specifically might not be the best mainboard threat. Personally, I've found he's been seriously underperforming. I've gone from 4-0ing the LGS scene, to struggling to pickup wins in casual games vs brews. I'm willing to try something different so I can still play Jeskai, as it's a deck that I really enjoy playing.
Btw Interesting midrange brew that Mclaren posted in that June article btw:
4 Restoration Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Wall of Omens
1 Vendilion Clique
Lands (25)
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
4 Celestial Colonnade
3 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
3 Tectonic Edge
4 Cryptic Command
4 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
2 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
2 Remand
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Stony Silence
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Celestial Purge
1 Logic Knot
1 Negate
1 Wear
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
Not sure how much he tested it (he seems more solidly in the control camp), as it seems rough around the edges. But maybe this is the type of shell midrange needs to move towards to keep our edge.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
The deck I've lost the most to is actually Affinity, I'm currently 2-4 against the deck. 3 of the 4 losses were to an unanswered Etched Champion, and one was a play mistake. This data is useful to me because it makes me realize that I likely need to tighten my play up a little bit in that matchup, and I want to include a second way to deal with Etched Champion. It's either going to be a 2nd Shatterstorm or Supreme Verdict. Considering the prvelance of the deck, it's likely the former. Sadly, I havent drawn Shatterstorm once in the 6 games.
I'm 0-3 vs Bogles, screw that matchup. It's a small part of the meta and I am not going to devote any slots to it. Even if I did, Id have to devote so much that Id screw myself in other places.
I'm 1-2 vs Amulet Bloom, it's winnable but not in our favor.
3-0 vs Grixis, with no games lost. (considered tier 1)
3-0 vs UR Twin with no games lost. (considered tier 1)
3-0 vs Merfolk, no games lost. (considered tier 1)
2-0 vs Slivers, no games lost.
2-0 vs Scapeshift, no games lost.
2-0 vs UB mill, lols.
2-0 vs burn. (considered tier 1)
1-1 vs BGx. (considered tier 1)
1-1 vs living end.
1-1 vs RG Tron.
Other random stuff....
Anyway, modern is really diverse. You aren't going to play against your bad match-ups all of the time, and even when you do, you can still win them. The big dudes are sometimes scary, but often times they aren't. Sequencing is really important, I can't stress that enough.
As an example, in a recent match vs Grixis Control, he resolved a T3 Grumag, I untapped played a land and slammed Geist. He untaps and attacks (great for me, I have a faster clock and more burn, plus my helixes effectively counter his bolts). I untap, play a land, rumble in for 6, and pass the turn. I don't remember my hand exactly, but I know I had a Remand, Restoration Angel and Path. The way I was going to win isn't necessarily just killing the Gurmag... I need to try and sequence the attempt in a way that can benefit me. If I can make him fight over it on his upkeep, one of two things can happen. I path it and he has a dispel, to which I'll remand my own Path and go from there. This is ok, because even if I dont kill it, I am tying up his mana so that he cant develop his board, and also making sure that he cant counter the restoration angel which is going to save Geist next turn. This is what I mean about making them do awkward things! He cannot interact with Geist any other way, so he is forced into fighting over his Gurmag even tho it is tapping him out. The other side is that path resolves and great, Gurmag is gone and I have remand up. What happened is that I Path'd, he dispeled, I remanded, and he leaked my remand. So Gurmag lives, but I untapped, attacked, flashed resto in to save Geist, he took 4, that makes 10 from Geist, I had also bolted him earlier so he had taken 13 from me, some from his lands, and was going to take another 4 from Geist guaranteed, and maybe 3 from resto. Burn finished the job. That game ended with a Gurmag on the table, and a victory for me.
Now of course they don't always play out like that. Sometimes you don't have the path, but welcome to magic. Also, Grixis doesnt really tax out Path to exiles all that much. Abzan on the other hand does, between discard, and 4x Goyfs, 4x Rhinos, and some number of Tasigurs.
One last thing, it's important to remember that this deck IS NOT uwr control, and its almost pointless to compare them. We have tempo lines available to us that deck just doesnt have (like in my exampl). We are FAR more proactive, and can combine our burn with creatures to great effect.
I want to add, that it is not unusual for a deck with a small number of players to come in an dominate a tournament. If UWR is truely well positioned, then I would expect for it come out of nowhere and Top8 something big. There will always be the die hard players, especially in a format that is more expensive. So there should always be that chance that we are wrong and some small set of players just run the tables.
I mean, there were a few premature pronouncements of its death. I mean it was dead and then it won a Players Championship. It was dead and then it won a Pro Tour. Though, worth noting that neither of those decks had Geist. Thing is, it really isn't surprising anyone this time around.
I think there is a lot of power there. We play a URx control shell with a white splash. White has some really good things to offer. But is it better than the black splash? White gets Path, Black has Terminate and Dismember. White gets Geist and Resto, Black gets Tasigur and Angler. Black also gets Kolghan's Command and Thoughtseize. We get Sphinx Rev and Colonnade, but it seems like those are too slow for the format. To a certain extent, Grixis seems to be the better control deck.
If we want to get more aggressive with Geist, we end up fighting against brick walls all day as even the control style decks are rocking a big butt. Geist is hard to deal with if you mean answer it directly. But most decks don't need to answer it. They just need to make it difficult to get more than a Exquisite Firecraft out of it.
I'm not trying to discourage people from playing UWR. I like the deck. I keep it built in paper and play it off and on still. I'm just being real here, trying to not wear rosy eye glasses about how good the deck is right now.
I feel like we really need to have a compelling reason to play white. I don't think Geist is that reason anymore. Resto, Path, Colonnade, Rev all seem like good reasons. Helix is also solid. Not sure if that's enough.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
As far as the UWR midrange deck goes, I'd feel a lot more comfortable just playing flash and jamming 4 Restos, 2 Cliques, 4 Walls and the usual suspects, with maybe a Kiki sideboard for fun or something. Evasion is what wins me games when the board gets tough, and often you can race Grixis due to the 8+ mainboard burn spells. Walls are great to brick wall early threats, and you can get a heap of value from them whatever stage of the game. That's not something I can say for Geist, because while he's usually pretty good early on, I just hate drawing them as the matches draw on.
Perhaps the Spellstutter Sprite plan is a good idea to go back to.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Restoration Angel
Spells (26)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
2 Shadow of Doubt
3 Mana Leak
4 Remand
2 Electrolyze
2 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Cryptic Command
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
3 Celestial Colonnade
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wear // Tear
2 Stony Silence
2 Counterflux
2 Timely Reinforcements
4 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Shatterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Wall of Omens
4 Restoration Angel
Spells (21)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Electrolyze
2 Lightning Helix
2 Remand
2 Mana Leak
1 Logic Knot
2 Cryptic Command
1 Think Twice
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
Obviously the sideboard doesn't need to be added. It should constantly be changing.
If we decide to try Spellstutter Sprites, they'd replace the Wall of Omens, and that'd probably be enough.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
Jund is pretty 50/50.
Abzan on the other hand.... ugh.
Agreed re: Jund vs Abzan. My single most feared card in these match ups is Liliana, not the big guys, though those extra big guys make Abzan tougher. What do you all do against liliana? She gets out of control way too often (maybe 30% of the time she comes down). There's a terrible mini game that always starts up when she lands. If I don't have immediate answers, it just feels horrible. Thoughts?
Also I think there's a feeling we have to be winning on board to win vs other midrange decks. That isn't true at all. I've found myself way behind on board but able to squeak through just enough evasive damage and burn to win. That's what is awesome about the deck: if we have a nice draw with tons of answers, sure, we'll just be ahead and win. If we don't, we can still win with proper sequencing. Geist becomes a burn spell here.
The only card versatile enough to deal with Lili as soon as she hits the table that I could finf is Boros Charm. Which also counters Abrupt Decay, and saves Geists, Walls, Cliques Snaps, whatever the main reason is to protect Geist anyway. But is protection, combat shennanigans (protection + removal with double strike), kills lili as soon as she goes +1, and 4 to the face is like an extra angel hit from geist.
Card doesn't seem good, but I believe in our colors is as good as it gets in mainboard material that is not dead in any matchup. I mean, Celestial Purge is awesome from the board, but it doesn't do anything against a lot of decks.
And speaking of Liliana, she dies to Jeskai Charm as well
EDIT: this is my list atm, although the sideboard is still somewhat experimental
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Restoration Angel
spells
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
2 Remand
3 Lightning Helix
2 Jeskai Charm
2 Cryptic Command
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Wear // Tear
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Dispel
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Stony Silence
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver