Best thing I could see Ojutai's Command doing is getting a Snapcaster Mage back and drawing a card. That implies having mana up to flashback the other spell, so realistically it costs 5-7mana depending on the target. You could potentially flashback the command itself off the returned snapcaster, but then you are talking 8+ mana depending on the modes chosen on the flashback copy.
Generally, draw a card is going to be the a lock for one of the selected modes so some realistic combinations could be:
Hard to tell. Seems very mana intensive for the payoff.
I feel like many of the modes occupy a similar role as Restoration Angel. E.g. 4 mana instant speed that gets extra value from Snapcaster. In the case of the command, we give up the 3/4 flyer for draw 1 card. Also relevant is that the command returns the Snapcaster from the graveyard, so in some sense should be easier to accomplish. However, you don't get the versatility of blinking a Geist after blocks declared to save him from damage, or blinking Clique on the draw step for extra value, or just casting naked and ambushing an attacker/going on the beatdown.
Ojutai's Command's versatility of other modes like 4 life / draw cards doesn't stack up that well vs Sphinx's Revelation late game (when you factor in a snap flashback). However, I suppose nets you more life when cast for 4. But is that really what you want to be doing?
Counter target creature just feels too slow to be relevant. Many big threats are coming down turn 2 and 3. And 4 drops like Rhino can only be caught when on the play. You are likely to be under pressure by the time this counter comes online.
An argument I could see for it is that it is a mainboardable sideboard card vs burn, as its versatile enough to not be a dead card in other matchups, but vs Burn it turns into a mini Sphinx Rev that has a free healing salve patched on.
Keranos seems much grindier actually, requiring the game to go on for several turns after being cast. This is a bit magical-christmas-landy, but resolving a Geist followed by a Narset backed up with our instants feels like it could be game over pretty quickly.
I pre-ordered 2 just to give it a shot, we'll see.
(and yes I know we probably aren't ever tapping out 2 turns in a row. Just sayin')
In that case, I would rather resolve geist followed by elspeth, give +3/+3 and flying to geist = 9 flying damage per turn.
Yeah, good point. Narset plays much better with our burn, but perhaps she's just better suited for UWR control, if she's modern playable at all. Just exciting to speculate on, we don't get splashy new toys very often.
Modern: RW R/W Burn WB B/W TokensXU MonuU Tron // UWX UW Tron R GoblinsW Soul SistersRWG Small ZooWUR WUR Geist/Control/Kiki-Resto Combo/NahiriUR Splinter Twin (90% Japanese)/ Grixis TwinRUB UR Delver / Grixis Delver UR Blue MoonBWU Ad NauseamWDeath and TaxesRUB Grixis ControlUMerfolksX Affinity RGB Living End UR Storm/PiF Combo RGX R/G TRON GWU Bant Eldrazi BW Eldrazi and Taxes RUBGoryos Vengeance UB Faeries Legacy:BRx Renimator Playing right now:Standard: Jeskai Control Modern; GoryosVengeance/UBFaeries/Affinity Legacy: BRx Reanimator Pauper: UR Drake (banned) Commander: Merieke Ri Berit Esper
I'm surprised SCG didn't go straight to $50, lol. Snagged mine on eBay right after they got spoiled for $30 apiece. I might be getting hosed, but I would not be surprised if this hangs around $40 for quite a while.
Just exciting to speculate on, we don't get splashy new toys very often.
True, with the planeswalker and the command, Azorius/Jeskai just got 2 new "wait-to-see-if-they-are-modern-playable" toys. It's better than just "Voice-Rhino-DTT-Ban DTT-Tasigur... go go Abzan go"
Not seeing Narset in this deck, especially in the counter heavy versions many people tend to run. The -2 works best with removal spells and the +1 is a bit weak for something that requires tapping out.
The question is, is she better than an Ajani Vengeant in the same spot? As it is, Ajani only sees fringe 1-of play and that guy straight up wins games. The bar is pretty high.
I think this is the definitve list i will play since today
I was doubing about 2x Remand, 2x Mana Leak and 2x Spell Snare, combinations can be infite, 4x Remand + 2 Spell Snare, or 3x Remand + 3x Mana leak instead, i want spell snare mainboard but i want mana leak too because its a hard counter, remand its better for sure but its only gain time so i need to kill threats for beating whit Geist ...
Modern: RW R/W Burn WB B/W TokensXU MonuU Tron // UWX UW Tron R GoblinsW Soul SistersRWG Small ZooWUR WUR Geist/Control/Kiki-Resto Combo/NahiriUR Splinter Twin (90% Japanese)/ Grixis TwinRUB UR Delver / Grixis Delver UR Blue MoonBWU Ad NauseamWDeath and TaxesRUB Grixis ControlUMerfolksX Affinity RGB Living End UR Storm/PiF Combo RGX R/G TRON GWU Bant Eldrazi BW Eldrazi and Taxes RUBGoryos Vengeance UB Faeries Legacy:BRx Renimator Playing right now:Standard: Jeskai Control Modern; GoryosVengeance/UBFaeries/Affinity Legacy: BRx Reanimator Pauper: UR Drake (banned) Commander: Merieke Ri Berit Esper
That sort of tuning is really dependant on your meta.
Leak is good general counter. It is useful in pretty much any matchup, but gets worse when things go long. I like it in an FNM setting where your not as likely to be facing stock tier level decks.
Snare is good, but it definitely gets worse when you are not facing the usual stock lists. It can be fairly effective in counterwars.
Remand is more of a weak time walk effect rather than a counter. I would think of it more as a draw card spell (like think twice). Also, keep in mind that remand gets significantly worse against aggro/burn decks.
That being said, if you are in an aggro heavy format. I'd be playing less remands (maybe cut entirely), more leaks and snares.
Hi folks. I watch the topic since ever and it´s my first post. I´m playing with the deck since the pod-age and I think the Remand is the glue of the deck. Because your creatures costs 3 ou more, the god hand is a removal for T1, Remand for 2 than you drop your creatures. Because of that, I´m playing 4 remands and is my only counters.
The real problem with the deck is the lack of decent draw spells style fact of fiction. The generic spell is Sphynx´s revelation but they not did quite well in this deck. If you choose UWR control, you are playing with 26 lands + 9 to 11 cards that have "draw a card" in the text. Because of that, you have less lands in play and sphynx doesn´t really to work in some part of the games, in midrange deck.
I´m playing testing Narset since the spoiler and she really compensates the lack of draw. Of course that she hits one card with +1 40-44% of the times (depending of the build), but the real power is in the -2 hability where the firestorm begins. Using -2 and lightning helix is the same of get two time walks. Of course that against burn and tron, Narset is a poor card, but the deck itself perfoming great against this archetypes. I´m running a 5-0 record against this decks without use a single sideboard card (but I´m playing with 3 vendilion clique´s what explain this records because is too damn good agains this decks - vendilion to put the skullcrack on the bottom and then play the lightning helix win´s the most part of the games.).
Geist of Saint Traft is a bad card againt junk. And the burns of the core of the deck doesn´t help too much. Because of that (and because I´m not running sideboard against burn and tron) I play a excentric version of the UWR midrange on the sideboard. I put 3 Explosives and 2 wrath of god to transforme the Midrange in a Control role against affinity, zoo and junk (where the geist doesn´t perfoming well).
I´m testing the Cryptic´s on the deck, but I don´t like it. The main reason is the with the cryptic´s you don´t save a ton of life. Several times I end a game with 4 ou 3 life against a lot of decks (without cryptic´s). And not playing then make you to win games that of lose instead if you are playing for a more hungry mana base.
Explosives is insane against junk and zoo (one great part of my field) and solves the problems with the chalices of void in merfolk deck. And agains´t affinity? Sweet! I´m running Wrath of God instead of Supreme Veredict because Thrun is a major thread that the deck doesn´t has responses to. Wrath is awfull against spell pierce, but the combination of explosives + wrath + removals MD is hard to fight against in the merfolk match.
I´m playing with this:
4 geist of saint traft
3 restoration angel
4 snapcaster mage
3 vendilion clique
In the lands section, I´m using 2 tectonics because in the sideboard I have 1 Crucible of Worlds. And then I testing eiganjo castle but I don´t really like it... Instead I´m playing with 1 Cavern of Souls. Resolve a geist with no interaction of the opponent is to good and the wizards on the deck is now 7.
*I´m not a english speaker, most part of the this post is a job of the google translator, pardon for any mystakes*
@Julioceliao2015: The deck definitely relies on Remand, Electrolyse, Snapcaster Mage for it their card draw (flashback as sudo card draw in the case of the Mage). I haven't had as much of an issue with card draw, but I do play a single Sphinx's Revelation.
I dont know how much raw card advantage Geist version needs given its more of a tempo deck. The heavier draw card feels like it's more suited for the control shell. I'm not as hopeful for Narset since Jace, Architect of Thought doesn't see play, but it would be interesting so hear how your testing goes.
Fact of Fiction would be awesome. Here's hoping they print it in MM2, though feels unlikely unless they ban Twin. I wonder if Gifts Ungiven does a good enough impression that it could be used as a value engine?
Also : use [ deck ][/ deck] without the spaces to format your list. Makes it much easier to read.
What do you guys think of Dragonlord Ojutai for a bomb? Recently I have been reading that having 2 high cast creatures is good for late game usually Krenaos, Batterskull, or Thundermaw. Ojutai seems like an interesting choice, partially resistant to removal, not only card draw but selecting from 3. Decent body. Think it could work here?
This is the list I ran at FNM last night -2 mystic teachings + 1 Path +1 Helix.
Went 3-1,
R1 UWB gifts value deck - G1 was close with him cloning my geist with Phantasmal image and cantripping with thirst for knowledge and thought scour to dump more phantasmal images, unburial rites and sun titans into the yard. I managed to burn him out with bolts/snapcaster/helix and colonnades, winning the game with double bolts, (he had 3 sun titans on board).
G2 was similar, he phantasmal imaged my t3 geist making me unable to swing, I pushed damage through with an angel on my geist after blocks. He again resolved the chain of sun titan into 2 images. He passed the turn with 3 mana open, I casted cryptic tapping his team and bouncing his blue source, leaving him with W B, he paths the angel. I untap jam thundermaw hellkite and swing with the team with a bolt and a helix for 17 to finish.
R2 against Soul Sistrs. Usually a pretty bad match up. G1 I had all the answers, several bolts on his sisters and continous 1 for 1s led to a top deck battle, in which my colonnades did work.
G2 Engineered explosived blew him out and path into snap caster path on his Archangel of Thune's got me the win.
R3 against Young Pyromancer cantrips. Wasn't really a teir deck, he casted in excess of 10-15 cantrips per game but could never stick a young pyromancer. Not a hard win.
R4 BG infect in the final where Phyrexian crusader hosed 80% of my deck. This card is insane against us and left me scratching my head when I didn't draw my Bskull/Supreme verdicts.
All in all we played 3 very uninteractive games where he either drew crusader or didnt. G1 he did - I lost G2 I remanded into crypic on the crusader and managed to get a win. G3 I countered 1 and he jammed 2 more and swung for the win. QQ infect so grotty.
Overall though i felt the deck did well, I was really happpy with the reach and and versitity.
The sideboard felt good as well, happy with how lingering souls performed, but I need something to combat infect apparently.
I found that I wanted something to cast other than an angel or snap caster when the opponent just passed the turn and mystical teachings seems perfect for the deck (it also can be flashed back if countered). It fits with the black splash for lingering souls, gets you the answer you need (cryptic vs crusader) and provides CA when the game goes long.
Cryptic Command is pretty amazing.
Generally, draw a card is going to be the a lock for one of the selected modes so some realistic combinations could be:
4mana: Counter creature, draw 1 card.
4mana: Gain 4, draw 1 card.
5mana: Snapcaster (Bolt), 3 damage, draw 1 card.
6mana: Snapcaster (Remand), tempo counter, draw 2 cards.
7mana: Snapcaster (Electrolyze), 1 damage, 1 damage, draw 2 cards.
8mana: Snapcaster (Ojutai), 4 life, draw 2 cards.
8mana: Snapcaster (Cryptic), counterspell, draw 2 cards.
Hard to tell. Seems very mana intensive for the payoff.
I feel like many of the modes occupy a similar role as Restoration Angel. E.g. 4 mana instant speed that gets extra value from Snapcaster. In the case of the command, we give up the 3/4 flyer for draw 1 card. Also relevant is that the command returns the Snapcaster from the graveyard, so in some sense should be easier to accomplish. However, you don't get the versatility of blinking a Geist after blocks declared to save him from damage, or blinking Clique on the draw step for extra value, or just casting naked and ambushing an attacker/going on the beatdown.
Ojutai's Command's versatility of other modes like 4 life / draw cards doesn't stack up that well vs Sphinx's Revelation late game (when you factor in a snap flashback). However, I suppose nets you more life when cast for 4. But is that really what you want to be doing?
Counter target creature just feels too slow to be relevant. Many big threats are coming down turn 2 and 3. And 4 drops like Rhino can only be caught when on the play. You are likely to be under pressure by the time this counter comes online.
An argument I could see for it is that it is a mainboardable sideboard card vs burn, as its versatile enough to not be a dead card in other matchups, but vs Burn it turns into a mini Sphinx Rev that has a free healing salve patched on.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Probably not good enough, but I'm at least going to give her a chance. Curiosity = piqued.
I think it has potential to find a home in some Esper/UW control decks. If running red Keranos ends the game faster.
I pre-ordered 2 just to give it a shot, we'll see.
(and yes I know we probably aren't ever tapping out 2 turns in a row. Just sayin')
UR TwinLegacy
UWR MiraclesYeah, good point. Narset plays much better with our burn, but perhaps she's just better suited for UWR control, if she's modern playable at all. Just exciting to speculate on, we don't get splashy new toys very often.
RW R/W Burn WB B/W TokensXU MonuU Tron // UWX UW Tron
R GoblinsW Soul SistersRWG Small ZooWUR WUR Geist/Control/Kiki-Resto Combo/NahiriUR Splinter Twin (90% Japanese)/ Grixis TwinRUB UR Delver / Grixis Delver UR Blue MoonBWU Ad NauseamWDeath and TaxesRUB Grixis ControlUMerfolksX Affinity RGB Living End UR Storm/PiF Combo RGX R/G TRON GWU Bant Eldrazi BW Eldrazi and Taxes RUBGoryos Vengeance UB Faeries
Legacy:BRx Renimator
Playing right now: Standard: Jeskai Control Modern; GoryosVengeance/UBFaeries/Affinity Legacy: BRx Reanimator Pauper: UR Drake (banned) Commander: Merieke Ri Berit Esper
I'm surprised SCG didn't go straight to $50, lol. Snagged mine on eBay right after they got spoiled for $30 apiece. I might be getting hosed, but I would not be surprised if this hangs around $40 for quite a while.
Edit: SCG does have them at $50 now, lol.
True, with the planeswalker and the command, Azorius/Jeskai just got 2 new "wait-to-see-if-they-are-modern-playable" toys. It's better than just "Voice-Rhino-DTT-Ban DTT-Tasigur... go go Abzan go"
UR TwinLegacy
UWR MiraclesModern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/dragons-of-tarkir-preview-card-ojutai-exemplars/
UR TwinLegacy
UWR MiraclesI was doubing about 2x Remand, 2x Mana Leak and 2x Spell Snare, combinations can be infite, 4x Remand + 2 Spell Snare, or 3x Remand + 3x Mana leak instead, i want spell snare mainboard but i want mana leak too because its a hard counter, remand its better for sure but its only gain time so i need to kill threats for beating whit Geist ...
Whats its the best combination of it?
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Restoration Angel
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
Instants/Sorceries (22):
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
2 Spell Snare
2 Cryptic Command
2 Remand
2 Mana Leak
2 Electrolyze
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Engangle Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
RW R/W Burn WB B/W TokensXU MonuU Tron // UWX UW Tron
R GoblinsW Soul SistersRWG Small ZooWUR WUR Geist/Control/Kiki-Resto Combo/NahiriUR Splinter Twin (90% Japanese)/ Grixis TwinRUB UR Delver / Grixis Delver UR Blue MoonBWU Ad NauseamWDeath and TaxesRUB Grixis ControlUMerfolksX Affinity RGB Living End UR Storm/PiF Combo RGX R/G TRON GWU Bant Eldrazi BW Eldrazi and Taxes RUBGoryos Vengeance UB Faeries
Legacy:BRx Renimator
Playing right now: Standard: Jeskai Control Modern; GoryosVengeance/UBFaeries/Affinity Legacy: BRx Reanimator Pauper: UR Drake (banned) Commander: Merieke Ri Berit Esper
Leak is good general counter. It is useful in pretty much any matchup, but gets worse when things go long. I like it in an FNM setting where your not as likely to be facing stock tier level decks.
Snare is good, but it definitely gets worse when you are not facing the usual stock lists. It can be fairly effective in counterwars.
Remand is more of a weak time walk effect rather than a counter. I would think of it more as a draw card spell (like think twice). Also, keep in mind that remand gets significantly worse against aggro/burn decks.
That being said, if you are in an aggro heavy format. I'd be playing less remands (maybe cut entirely), more leaks and snares.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
The real problem with the deck is the lack of decent draw spells style fact of fiction. The generic spell is Sphynx´s revelation but they not did quite well in this deck. If you choose UWR control, you are playing with 26 lands + 9 to 11 cards that have "draw a card" in the text. Because of that, you have less lands in play and sphynx doesn´t really to work in some part of the games, in midrange deck.
I´m playing testing Narset since the spoiler and she really compensates the lack of draw. Of course that she hits one card with +1 40-44% of the times (depending of the build), but the real power is in the -2 hability where the firestorm begins. Using -2 and lightning helix is the same of get two time walks. Of course that against burn and tron, Narset is a poor card, but the deck itself perfoming great against this archetypes. I´m running a 5-0 record against this decks without use a single sideboard card (but I´m playing with 3 vendilion clique´s what explain this records because is too damn good agains this decks - vendilion to put the skullcrack on the bottom and then play the lightning helix win´s the most part of the games.).
Geist of Saint Traft is a bad card againt junk. And the burns of the core of the deck doesn´t help too much. Because of that (and because I´m not running sideboard against burn and tron) I play a excentric version of the UWR midrange on the sideboard. I put 3 Explosives and 2 wrath of god to transforme the Midrange in a Control role against affinity, zoo and junk (where the geist doesn´t perfoming well).
I´m testing the Cryptic´s on the deck, but I don´t like it. The main reason is the with the cryptic´s you don´t save a ton of life. Several times I end a game with 4 ou 3 life against a lot of decks (without cryptic´s). And not playing then make you to win games that of lose instead if you are playing for a more hungry mana base.
Explosives is insane against junk and zoo (one great part of my field) and solves the problems with the chalices of void in merfolk deck. And agains´t affinity? Sweet! I´m running Wrath of God instead of Supreme Veredict because Thrun is a major thread that the deck doesn´t has responses to. Wrath is awfull against spell pierce, but the combination of explosives + wrath + removals MD is hard to fight against in the merfolk match.
I´m playing with this:
4 geist of saint traft
3 restoration angel
4 snapcaster mage
3 vendilion clique
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
4 path to exile
4 remand
3 Narset Transcedent
2 Electrolyse
25 lands (the classic ones)
In the lands section, I´m using 2 tectonics because in the sideboard I have 1 Crucible of Worlds. And then I testing eiganjo castle but I don´t really like it... Instead I´m playing with 1 Cavern of Souls. Resolve a geist with no interaction of the opponent is to good and the wizards on the deck is now 7.
*I´m not a english speaker, most part of the this post is a job of the google translator, pardon for any mystakes*
I dont know how much raw card advantage Geist version needs given its more of a tempo deck. The heavier draw card feels like it's more suited for the control shell. I'm not as hopeful for Narset since Jace, Architect of Thought doesn't see play, but it would be interesting so hear how your testing goes.
Fact of Fiction would be awesome. Here's hoping they print it in MM2, though feels unlikely unless they ban Twin. I wonder if Gifts Ungiven does a good enough impression that it could be used as a value engine?
Also : use [ deck ][/ deck] without the spaces to format your list. Makes it much easier to read.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Went 3-1,
R1 UWB gifts value deck - G1 was close with him cloning my geist with Phantasmal image and cantripping with thirst for knowledge and thought scour to dump more phantasmal images, unburial rites and sun titans into the yard. I managed to burn him out with bolts/snapcaster/helix and colonnades, winning the game with double bolts, (he had 3 sun titans on board).
G2 was similar, he phantasmal imaged my t3 geist making me unable to swing, I pushed damage through with an angel on my geist after blocks. He again resolved the chain of sun titan into 2 images. He passed the turn with 3 mana open, I casted cryptic tapping his team and bouncing his blue source, leaving him with W B, he paths the angel. I untap jam thundermaw hellkite and swing with the team with a bolt and a helix for 17 to finish.
R2 against Soul Sistrs. Usually a pretty bad match up. G1 I had all the answers, several bolts on his sisters and continous 1 for 1s led to a top deck battle, in which my colonnades did work.
G2 Engineered explosived blew him out and path into snap caster path on his Archangel of Thune's got me the win.
R3 against Young Pyromancer cantrips. Wasn't really a teir deck, he casted in excess of 10-15 cantrips per game but could never stick a young pyromancer. Not a hard win.
R4 BG infect in the final where Phyrexian crusader hosed 80% of my deck. This card is insane against us and left me scratching my head when I didn't draw my Bskull/Supreme verdicts.
All in all we played 3 very uninteractive games where he either drew crusader or didnt. G1 he did - I lost G2 I remanded into crypic on the crusader and managed to get a win. G3 I countered 1 and he jammed 2 more and swung for the win. QQ infect so grotty.
Overall though i felt the deck did well, I was really happpy with the reach and and versitity.
The sideboard felt good as well, happy with how lingering souls performed, but I need something to combat infect apparently.
I found that I wanted something to cast other than an angel or snap caster when the opponent just passed the turn and mystical teachings seems perfect for the deck (it also can be flashed back if countered). It fits with the black splash for lingering souls, gets you the answer you need (cryptic vs crusader) and provides CA when the game goes long.
3 Restoration Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
2 Mystical Teachings
3 Path to Exile
4 Remand
2 Spell Snare
1 Valorous Stance
4 Flooded Strand
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Watery Grave
1 Celestial Purge
1 Counterflux
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Lingering Souls
1 Negate
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Stony Silence
1 Valorous Stance
2 Wear // Tear
Has anyone else tried Mystical Teachings?
Any advice/criticism on the list would be greatly appreciated!