With treasure cruise seeing so much play/experimentation I would like to point out that remand is an exceptionally good card to neutralize a TC. I think if the current meta does continue to skew towards decks running delve mechanics remand will solidify as the superior pick to mana leak. Though I've always preferred remand over leak so I may be biased.
Yeah...that's kind of a given. Being as they tend to run 4-5 1cc counters, you'll need an extra counter(probably a spell pierce) if you plan on having a remand stop a TC that isn't being tossed out as bait(anyone should be able to see remands coming from a mile away).
So I played paper modern for the first time in a long time last night and went 2-1-1 with the list below. I drew with GBw after our game 3 went to time with my opponent casting a seemingly endless stream of Goyfs and Lingering Souls while I stuck a Helix on a Scepter and slowly stabilized the board. My loss was against Boggles in a match where I won game 1 by racing with nothing but burn (3 of the spells being Helix was pretty key) but lost the rest after he landed a Leyline of Sanctity in game 2 forcing me to go all in with the double strike mode of Boros Charm (I failed due to a nice play where he Nature's Claimed one of his own Auras for enough life to survive) followed by him having two Cornets to my one Snare in game 3. The wins were relatively straightforward affairs vs Faeries and Pod.
This deck is heavily inspired by a list that 4-0ed a recent MODO daily from which I cut some utility spells to fit in more burn in the form of a pair of Boros Charms, a Scepter, and a Lightning Angel. My thinking was that as the core of the deck is the full playset of Dig Through Time powered by the 11 fetches, I wanted to be able to pull out 7 or 8 points of burn as the Jeskai Burn deck from Standard frequently does. Boros Charm also synergizes well with Scepter, saving it from Abrupt Decay or providing 4 direct damage every turn. Remand outperformed Mana Leak all night so I'm going to go up to 4 instead of splitting 2/2 and I'd like to get that 4th Path back into the maindeck. Lightning Angel should probably be something else (Hellkite? Resto?) as it was never able to fulfill the aggressive blocker role that I intended for it; it was always either outclassed by a Goyf or a huge Boggle, or died immediately to removal. The sideboard is a total mess right now and will certainly evolve as I put more work into this deck.
Any feedback or stray thoughts are greatly appreciated.
4 snapcasters with 4 dig through time doesn't make any sense. The second delve would start removing all the optimal snap targets
Ya, I run 2 Snaps and 3 Cruise in my UWR Delver. Went 4-0 FNM last night. Anytime a resolved a Cruise I won the game.
2-0 UW Control (Dude was on full tilt. I normally play combo and he plays burn. He was tired of loosing so he switched to control this week... Well my midrange surprise had him pretty upset.)
2-0 UB Mill
2-1 White Weenie Knights (Ya, double Knight Exemplar can be a pain without a Path at the right time.)
2-1 Kiki Pod, Game one I kept a ok seven that didn't get better and he had triple Nobles with a Kitchen Finks beating my face in. Game two and three I burned/pathed everything he ever played. Landed Cage fallowed by a Hushwing. GG
@twinbells Thanks for posting your results. I'm all for the idea of going for a full set of remands (if my post above doesn't say that enough) and the additional PtE. As for the lightning angel replacement you probably don't want anything 5cmc with that low of a land count, perhaps a restoration angel would work better with the instant speed of the deck. In the sideboard some room should be made for a sweeper, especially with you troubles with Boggles and Goyfs.
4 snapcasters with 4 dig through time doesn't make any sense. The second delve would start removing all the optimal snap targets
In practice, I haven't had too many troubles playing a full playset of both Snapcaster and Dig. Unlike Treasure Cruise, you don't have to cast Dig on your own turn, so a lot of the time I end up tapping out for it during my opponent's end step and only having to delve away 3-5 cards. Furthermore, even if you have to delve away an answer that you need, you're very likely to find another one in the 7 that you see.
As for the 9th "creature" slot, I'm going to try Elspeth for a while, and then Resto, and then Clique.
I was playing UWR delver for awhile, and then I was playing UWR control for awhile, and now I've decided to take what I liked about the two decks and cram them together into some kind of UWR midrange pile of cards:
It's fairly sketchy (no 1/2 mana counters, just jammed 3 treasure cruise in) but super fun to play. I'm just playing Tournament Practice on MTGO but it's working fairly well.
Okay I'm going to try 2 Dig Through Time. Changed my mana base to go to 10 fetches for delve food. I'm also considering switching the Thundermaw Hellkite with the Batterskull from main to side.
Some posters, such as Sasky and Spooly, have reported very positive results with Dig in UR and RUG Delver, respectively. Dig seems especially better here with 25 lands (vs 18-19) and an overall higher power level and answer suite. I definitely think it's worth testing as a 2-of, for starters. The card is nuts.
Some posters, such as Sasky and Spooly, have reported very positive results with Dig in UR and RUG Delver, respectively. Dig seems especially better here with 25 lands (vs 18-19) and an overall higher power level and answer suite. I definitely think it's worth testing as a 2-of, for starters. The card is nuts.
i am not saying it is not a very good card.
i am saying UR delver is not URW midrange. it's like saying serum visions is good for UR twin, i am sure it is. I would never play it in my URW midrange, though.
I'm not making anyone run anything, but I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't encourage you to give Dig a try (or another, if you have already).
I'm sure it's good but I think our graveyard is a much too important a resource to justify any more than 2 dig through time, personally I wouldnt go more than 1.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
When on the midrange plan,do you guys think it is a good idea to run vapor snag as a way to save geist at times especially when facing Jund which we can't really cast geist on turn 3 as they can cast lotv and get rid of geist? Or do you guys hold geist in your hand until you have a counter spell ready instead and run the risk of having geist being stripped off your hand by discards? Merfolk midrange and delver tempi run vapor snag to a certain lvl of success in their deck so I'm wondering if it is a good idea to try it in our midrange geist deck as well so looking for feedback here.thx.
I'm sure it's good but I think our graveyard is a much too important a resource to justify any more than 2 dig through time, personally I wouldnt go more than 1.
The deck's only interaction with the grave is Snap. I'm not advocating running 4, but 1 or 2 copies can add a lot of punch to the deck. I think it's pretty hard to debate running none, and it's almost certainly better than Electrolyze, if people still have room in their lists for that.
I'm sure it's good but I think our graveyard is a much too important a resource to justify any more than 2 dig through time, personally I wouldnt go more than 1.
The deck's only interaction with the grave is Snap. I'm not advocating running 4, but 1 or 2 copies can add a lot of punch to the deck. I think it's pretty hard to debate running none, and it's almost certainly better than Electrolyze, if people still have room in their lists for that.
I doubt Dig Through Time is better than Electrolyze in the current more UR Delver-heavy Modern meta. Electrolyze cleans out Young Pyromancer's clock fast, smacks flipped Delver, and might smack Monastery Swiftspear. It's also hard to cast DTT fast enough against Burn (you need to partially stabilize with removal/counterspells first, as the fastest I've cast DTT in UWR Midrange is Turn 4), and Electrolyze at least gets most of their guys.
I do like 2 DTTs in regular UWR Midrange decks, though. In good old Geist of Saint Win, I have a hard time supporting 3-4 and casting them fast enough--sometimes, even 2 DTT are a mite slow.
Electrolyze is certainly good against Delver (and Affinity and Pod), but outside of that, I see Dig being the better card. Delver decks are already metagaming against themselves, so I expect things to slow down a little in that sense. And unfortunately, Electrolyze feels bad on a flipped Delver or Swiftspear, the latter sometimes not even dying to it. I like Electrolyze a lot, especially in Geist lists to clear the way, but Dig is shaping up to be the next coming of Fact or Fiction (except better!). I can't imagine any of us looking back a few months from now and being glad we didn't get on the boat earlier.
Dig Through Time is the best draw spell in Modern right now because of Instant speed and the flexibility in cost. You don't have to Delve your entire graveyard like Treasure Cruise, casting Ancestral Memories Instant speed for 4 is a much better Fact or Fiction.
Young Pyromancer seems well positioned in meta whether it's to slow down aggro decks, chump block Tarmogoyf, or develop a fast clock with countermagic back up. Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique are great as Instant speed threats, I would play Restoration Angel but it costs 4 CMC, and it also doesn't have as much synergy here as typical UWr decks.
I don't really like Geist of Saint-Traft as a card right now in a Remand/Goblin Guide meta. Path to Exile seems weak in a Burn / UR Delver format; even if a Tarmogoyf gets through countermagic, you can chump block it for days with Young Pyromancer. Dig Through Time is insanely good, I don't know about 3 if the deck doesn't support a ton of cantrips, but not playing any is definitely wrong.
As a UWR Delver player who is transitioning into UWR Midrange, your list doesn't have a lot of advantages over, say, one that would cut the 2 Cliques and Colonnades for Delvers. You'd have 28 cards to flip Delver, an aggressive turn 1 play (which is very important, IMO), and it plays well with the rest of the deck, more or less.
I personally want to make the change to midrange because I see UWR Midrange as the bigger brother of the American Delver deck I'm already playing. And really, running 4 Helix, 4 Remand, 4 Young Pyro, 4 Snap, and any number of Geists makes for a clunky Delver deck. I think that, as someone who wants to run a card suite like that, I'm much better off with a non Delver list because a higher land count let's me comfortably resolve all my spells without worrying about cantripping into land drops.
Another thing is that Delver itself rarely presents a lasting advantage in a format full of ways to neutralise it. Without another strong aggressive 1 drop, like Swiftspear, you can't depend on having an early clock. For these reasons, if it is your interest to eschew Delver, I would simply go bigger. Any shell where Delver could easily fit in, it probably should, so that's the issue I see with running a lean Young Pyromancer deck.
I have been trying to find a way to integrate Young Pyro into UWR midrange, but unfortunately, the lack of 1 mana cantrips renders it an unviable engine. And when you start adding 1 mana cantrips and cutting lands, we return to square one!
Going bigger than Delver (namely, with Resto and a multitude of 5 drop options) is a good game plan, with removal and counters to flesh out the early game. My main gripe with the deck is having very little early pressure and seeing hands so full of lands (I'm accustomed to Delver decks!), but on the whole, the deck seems to make up for it when it stabilises, and then you can just go over the top, which is nice. And c'mon-- Resto Angel!
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
2 Steam Vents
2 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Sacred Foundary
Creatures: 9
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Lightning Angel
4 Dig Through Time
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
2 Boros Charm
2 Electrolyze
2 Mana Leak
2 Remand
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Cryptic Command
Artifacts/Enchantments: 1
1 Isochron Scepter
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Stony Silence
2 Negate
2 Wear // Tear
1 Counterflux
1 Deflecting Palm
1 Dismember
1 Path to Exile
1 Spell Pierce
This deck is heavily inspired by a list that 4-0ed a recent MODO daily from which I cut some utility spells to fit in more burn in the form of a pair of Boros Charms, a Scepter, and a Lightning Angel. My thinking was that as the core of the deck is the full playset of Dig Through Time powered by the 11 fetches, I wanted to be able to pull out 7 or 8 points of burn as the Jeskai Burn deck from Standard frequently does. Boros Charm also synergizes well with Scepter, saving it from Abrupt Decay or providing 4 direct damage every turn. Remand outperformed Mana Leak all night so I'm going to go up to 4 instead of splitting 2/2 and I'd like to get that 4th Path back into the maindeck. Lightning Angel should probably be something else (Hellkite? Resto?) as it was never able to fulfill the aggressive blocker role that I intended for it; it was always either outclassed by a Goyf or a huge Boggle, or died immediately to removal. The sideboard is a total mess right now and will certainly evolve as I put more work into this deck.
Any feedback or stray thoughts are greatly appreciated.
Ya, I run 2 Snaps and 3 Cruise in my UWR Delver. Went 4-0 FNM last night. Anytime a resolved a Cruise I won the game.
2-0 UW Control (Dude was on full tilt. I normally play combo and he plays burn. He was tired of loosing so he switched to control this week... Well my midrange surprise had him pretty upset.)
2-0 UB Mill
2-1 White Weenie Knights (Ya, double Knight Exemplar can be a pain without a Path at the right time.)
2-1 Kiki Pod, Game one I kept a ok seven that didn't get better and he had triple Nobles with a Kitchen Finks beating my face in. Game two and three I burned/pathed everything he ever played. Landed Cage fallowed by a Hushwing. GG
In practice, I haven't had too many troubles playing a full playset of both Snapcaster and Dig. Unlike Treasure Cruise, you don't have to cast Dig on your own turn, so a lot of the time I end up tapping out for it during my opponent's end step and only having to delve away 3-5 cards. Furthermore, even if you have to delve away an answer that you need, you're very likely to find another one in the 7 that you see.
As for the 9th "creature" slot, I'm going to try Elspeth for a while, and then Resto, and then Clique.
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Blade Splicer
4 Restoration Angel
NONCREATURE SPELLS (21):
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Electrolyze
4 Path to Exile
3 Cryptic Command
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Perilous Research
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Negate
2 Counterflux
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Electrolyze
2 Wear // Tear
1 Shattering Spree
2 Spell Snare
2 Celestial Purge
It's fairly sketchy (no 1/2 mana counters, just jammed 3 treasure cruise in) but super fun to play. I'm just playing Tournament Practice on MTGO but it's working fairly well.
4 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Restoration Angel
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Keranos, God of Storms
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
4 Remand
4 Lightning Helix
2 Electrolyze
2 Dig Through Time
3 Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Spellskite
1 Batterskull
1 Combust
2 Counterflux
2 Wear // Tear
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Wrath of God
1 Sowing Salt
1 Celestial Purge
1 Anger of the Gods
I'm not making anyone run anything, but I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't encourage you to give Dig a try (or another, if you have already).
The deck's only interaction with the grave is Snap. I'm not advocating running 4, but 1 or 2 copies can add a lot of punch to the deck. I think it's pretty hard to debate running none, and it's almost certainly better than Electrolyze, if people still have room in their lists for that.
I doubt Dig Through Time is better than Electrolyze in the current more UR Delver-heavy Modern meta. Electrolyze cleans out Young Pyromancer's clock fast, smacks flipped Delver, and might smack Monastery Swiftspear. It's also hard to cast DTT fast enough against Burn (you need to partially stabilize with removal/counterspells first, as the fastest I've cast DTT in UWR Midrange is Turn 4), and Electrolyze at least gets most of their guys.
I do like 2 DTTs in regular UWR Midrange decks, though. In good old Geist of Saint Win, I have a hard time supporting 3-4 and casting them fast enough--sometimes, even 2 DTT are a mite slow.
Cheers!
2x Celestial Colonnade
4x Flooded Strand
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Steam Vents
2x Cryptic Command
3x Dig Through Time
2x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Lightning Helix
2x Mana Leak
3x Remand
2x Spell Snare
1x Flame Jab
3x Gitaxian Probe
2x Pillar of Flame
4x Serum Visions
Creature (10)
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Young Pyromancer
Dig Through Time is the best draw spell in Modern right now because of Instant speed and the flexibility in cost. You don't have to Delve your entire graveyard like Treasure Cruise, casting Ancestral Memories Instant speed for 4 is a much better Fact or Fiction.
Young Pyromancer seems well positioned in meta whether it's to slow down aggro decks, chump block Tarmogoyf, or develop a fast clock with countermagic back up. Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique are great as Instant speed threats, I would play Restoration Angel but it costs 4 CMC, and it also doesn't have as much synergy here as typical UWr decks.
I don't really like Geist of Saint-Traft as a card right now in a Remand/Goblin Guide meta. Path to Exile seems weak in a Burn / UR Delver format; even if a Tarmogoyf gets through countermagic, you can chump block it for days with Young Pyromancer. Dig Through Time is insanely good, I don't know about 3 if the deck doesn't support a ton of cantrips, but not playing any is definitely wrong.
I personally want to make the change to midrange because I see UWR Midrange as the bigger brother of the American Delver deck I'm already playing. And really, running 4 Helix, 4 Remand, 4 Young Pyro, 4 Snap, and any number of Geists makes for a clunky Delver deck. I think that, as someone who wants to run a card suite like that, I'm much better off with a non Delver list because a higher land count let's me comfortably resolve all my spells without worrying about cantripping into land drops.
Another thing is that Delver itself rarely presents a lasting advantage in a format full of ways to neutralise it. Without another strong aggressive 1 drop, like Swiftspear, you can't depend on having an early clock. For these reasons, if it is your interest to eschew Delver, I would simply go bigger. Any shell where Delver could easily fit in, it probably should, so that's the issue I see with running a lean Young Pyromancer deck.
I have been trying to find a way to integrate Young Pyro into UWR midrange, but unfortunately, the lack of 1 mana cantrips renders it an unviable engine. And when you start adding 1 mana cantrips and cutting lands, we return to square one!
Going bigger than Delver (namely, with Resto and a multitude of 5 drop options) is a good game plan, with removal and counters to flesh out the early game. My main gripe with the deck is having very little early pressure and seeing hands so full of lands (I'm accustomed to Delver decks!), but on the whole, the deck seems to make up for it when it stabilises, and then you can just go over the top, which is nice. And c'mon-- Resto Angel!
-Mark
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Restoration Angel
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
4 Remand
3 Spell Snare
1 Electrolyze
1 Dig Through Time
24 lands
1 Spellskite
1 Combust
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Counterflux
2 Wear/Tear
2 Refraction Trap
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Stony Silence
1 Celestial Purge
1 Izzet Staticaster
Haven't worked out the manabase yet.
3 finks, 3 resto, 4 helix, 4 snap seems decent against the delver/burn stuff happening.