MTG Salvation

Quote from iamghost

thanks for replying.
mystic gate seems fine sometimes since i run command, clique, wrath of god, supreme verdict, and those all require double (or triple!) U and W. My concerns regard mostly eiganjo because i think that with all those 2/3 and 3/3 creatures running wild around these days, it can allow your GoST to safely attack through them.

You could still run castle in the second mana base you had, i guess - 1 sulfur falls. I did try it that way for a bit, but i always wanted an early red for Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, or an Anger of the Gods so i dropped it.

BUT being able to attack (or block) into 3/3 and survive is nice.

I personally think that if you're going to run GoST in the current meta that Eiganjo Castle is something that you will want to run as well. It allows him to survive sweepers and blockers and both of those are quite prevalent where I play at least.

Quote from iamghost

my concern about going 4x arid mesa is the fact i would then run 8 fetches for a total of 9 fetchable lands. this could leave me with a fetch in hand and no land to search for. plus, taking out 2 lands for a land and a fetch, would actually mean playing with one land less, diminishing the probability to draw one and i don't want to miss more land drops than the ones i already skip. so my idea would be to take out one between gate and castle for one more sulfur falls.

Out of all the games I've ever played I only ran into that situation once. It's not a fear I personally share with you.

Quote from iamghost

Quote from JPoJohnson

Quote from iamghost

my concern about going 4x arid mesa is the fact i would then run 8 fetches for a total of 9 fetchable lands. this could leave me with a fetch in hand and no land to search for. plus, taking out 2 lands for a land and a fetch, would actually mean playing with one land less, diminishing the probability to draw one and i don't want to miss more land drops than the ones i already skip. so my idea would be to take out one between gate and castle for one more sulfur falls.

Out of all the games I've ever played I only ran into that situation once. It's not a fear I personally share with you.

but since you fetch you still lower your probability to draw a land

I don't understand what that has to do with having a fetch without a legal target? I would rather have the flexibility to swap my fetch for a basic land or the exact color duo that I desire than draw a land and be stuck with it. Especially with Blood Moon becoming more and more popular to run at tournaments. I won't personally decrease the fetch count. It's too important to me.

Quote from iamghost

Quote from JPoJohnson

Quote from iamghost

Quote from JPoJohnson

Quote from iamghost

my concern about going 4x arid mesa is the fact i would then run 8 fetches for a total of 9 fetchable lands. this could leave me with a fetch in hand and no land to search for. plus, taking out 2 lands for a land and a fetch, would actually mean playing with one land less, diminishing the probability to draw one and i don't want to miss more land drops than the ones i already skip. so my idea would be to take out one between gate and castle for one more sulfur falls.

Out of all the games I've ever played I only ran into that situation once. It's not a fear I personally share with you.

but since you fetch you still lower your probability to draw a land

I don't understand what that has to do with having a fetch without a legal target? I would rather have the flexibility to swap my fetch for a basic land or the exact color duo that I desire than draw a land and be stuck with it. Especially with Blood Moon becoming more and more popular to run at tournaments. I won't personally decrease the fetch count. It's too important to me.

nothing, theory are 2 different concerns.

You make no sense.

Can you guys please help me with my sideboard for gp richmond it is as follows

• 3 Spellskite
  
• 2 Counterflux
  
• 2 Shadow of Doubt
  
• 1 Vendilion Clique
  
• 1 Leyline of Sanctity
  
• 2 Rest in Peace
  
• 2 Stony Silence
  
• 1 Damping Matrix
  
• 1 Engineered Explosives

i really feel like i need 1-2 wraths not sure what to put in i don't run any main and use a rather un conventional list with delver in more of a tempo build it is as follows

any help on the deck would be helpful as well was contemplating cutting 1 Sacred Foundry for a mountain?

I dont really understand your list, you want to play a delver deck with only 2 serum visions, and 3 cryptic commands?
You dont even run 4 bolts and paths to clear the way?

its not all in delver but it uses him to win i basically put out a clock and let the opponent try and stop it it functions like aggro some games like control others and like aggro control at other times. i find 3 bolts 3 helix's and 3 paths to be plenty of removal most of their threats just get countered. 2 visions is all u need delver flips by him self very easily with 45 spells.

Forgive me fellow Midrangers, for I have sinned.



There is one concern I always had with my flash Midrange build and it was the fact that it was hard to comeback if I got behind. When I was ahead, it was phenomenal because there were so many combat tricks that I could manage in order to stay ahead. The value-town engine of Wall of Omens/Snapcaster Mage/Vendilion Clique combined with either Restoration Angel/Splinter Twin is too fantastic to pass up. All the combo enabling pieces to win the game are safe from sweepers and have flash. Play enough removal to prevent the opponent from doing anything drastically lethal while keeping position on the board. For the most part, it plays out as a midrange deck. I win more often without ever going 'infinite' in attackers vs just out-valuing my opponent with blockers and attackers. The oops-I-win aspect of the deck is also nice. It's also practically immune to Blood Moon. There is no card costing more than 2 of a colored mana other than Splinter Twin and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Break and they cost red so there is no impact there.

I know this decklist probably doesn't belong in this list at this point since it has more aspects of a different deck than it does with Midrange, but I figured I would post it here as part of the deck's evolution to where it has gotten (since I started with Geist-of-Saint-Win->Flash UWR Midrange->Flash UWR Midrange Twin).

UWR twin is a huge value deck and I like it/may try it (when I can around to spending more money on cards for this deck). My question is, why not just cut the twin combo and stick with the value train with walls, splicers and angels?

Quote from alpinefroggy

UWR twin is a huge value deck and I like it/may try it (when I can around to spending more money on cards for this deck). My question is, why not just cut the twin combo and stick with the value train with walls, splicers and angels?

With most of your T3 onward spells being instants/flash except for the combo winning piece (kiki/Splinter), you play the midrange control game all the way until there is an opening. Midrange can't exploit small openings nearly as much as Tempo Twin can. I end up losing out on what? Cryptic Command and Geist of Saint Traft? Small loss for the exponential power that is gained I feel. Especially once you sideboard against certain decks and have Dispel to use at your leisure to counter their silver bullet.

The deck also isn't as strongly shutdown against twin hate because of the tempo package packing quite a punch. I've enjoyed the deck more than anything else I've played in modern (in the UWr category... I still love my 'folk).

Quote from Dr. Dude

its not all in delver but it uses him to win i basically put out a clock and let the opponent try and stop it it functions like aggro some games like control others and like aggro control at other times. i find 3 bolts 3 helix's and 3 paths to be plenty of removal most of their threats just get countered. 2 visions is all u need delver flips by him self very easily with 45 spells.

45 spells? I don't think that's accurate. Delver is bad in Modern, especially with the lack of deck manipulation (and you aren't even running the full suite of Visions). This sounds like a case of a deck looking really good to you on paper, but I assume you haven't playtested it heavily.

@JPoJohnson
How was going the flashy version doing?

How well does the deck apply pressure without geist?

How well does the deck function on a more instant speed basis rather than with clunky (but powerful) sorcery speed threats. It seems like something I might want to do because a couple of articles said geist seems to be a bad thing to be using right now.

Quote from alpinefroggy

@JPoJohnson
How was going the flashy version doing?

How well does the deck apply pressure without geist?

How well does the deck function on a more instant speed basis rather than with clunky (but powerful) sorcery speed threats. It seems like something I might want to do because a couple of articles said geist seems to be a bad thing to be using right now.

How was the flash version doing:

Fantastic. I absolutely loved running 4 Restoration Angels with their ability to basically double down on my ETB triggers on Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique. Also protected them from spot removal (which I used on Vendilion Clique mostly since he had the most damage. I did use it on a Celestial Colonnade once though). Obviously there was less pressure than running Geist. Storm was a harder matchup.

How did the deck apply pressure:
In regards to applying pressure... it did alright. You grind out the first couple of turns making sure they don't gain control of the board and then everything you do is in response to them. There are a lot of decks that just can't handle that type of control. Being able to always deny them either creatures or spells while doing it at instant speed and leaving threats in their wake was great. There are a lot of games like Zoo that I felt like it went great. I could instant-block with Angel, deny them a blocker, blink a snapcaster, and Path their other critter and then swing for 3-5 next turn all for 5 mana. Beautiful.

The playstyle is completely different. You're more reactive with the way you play and threat based. It takes some getting use to, but I definitely prefer the flash deck to the regular one.

"45 spells? I don't think that's accurate. Delver is bad in Modern, especially with the lack of deck manipulation (and you aren't even running the full suite of Visions). This sounds like a case of a deck looking really good to you on paper, but I assume you haven't playtested it heavily."


why is delver bad in modern but awesome in legacy then? he is just as good in modern. i have play tested it i cant see playing a deck without him that's blue. he either eats a lighting bolt or causes mayhem. either way my life total is safe and after i untap with 2 lands its gg cause they are playing catch up and i sit back and counter. if they tapp out vs any blue deck i just counter or kill untap play giest and now they are in a worse position. applying pressure makes people fold most of the time and 3-4 turns with delver can get the job done as i sit back with my stuff untapped. i don't want to get in an argument over this all i wanted was some sideboard help.

Quote from Dr. Dude

Can you guys please help me with my sideboard for gp richmond it is as follows

• 3 Spellskite
  
• 2 Counterflux
  
• 2 Shadow of Doubt
  
• 1 Vendilion Clique
  
• 1 Leyline of Sanctity
  
• 2 Rest in Peace
  
• 2 Stony Silence
  
• 1 Damping Matrix
  
• 1 Engineered Explosives

Shadow of Doubt is really bad. It looks good and we think "oh yeah, we're gonna Snapcast that thing" but:

-half the games we play, our opponent is going first and will get two fetchland activations before we get Shadow off
-a crucial part of the early game is fetch into either Steam Vents + Plains or Sacred Foundry + Island, which gets even more important with Blood Moon out.
-UU requires you to get two blue sources on turn 2, which can cost a lot of life.
-it's low-down, no good, terrible off the top of the deck
-even if you catch someone with it, it's typically at your end step so you have to tap down low
-it doesn't strategically do much, since you aren't able to land a heater and Stone Rain/Vapor Snag someone for four turns like UW Delver did in Standard.
-in general, sideboard cards are best when they are either permanents or are good whenever you draw them. So things like Mindcensor are good and Wear/Tear is going to be fine whenever you draw it.

3 Spellskite is weird, do you fear Bogles that much? Twin is not really an issue.

1 Leyline is weird, too.

No Batterskull means you've got a weaker game vs. aggro and long-game control.

No Wear/Tear means you're giving up a really good answer to Blood Moon.

In general, Vendilion Clique is just so much better than Delver. Both lose hard to Electrolyze, so you might as well run the better card.

For what it's worth by the way, I've grudgingly tried Eiganjo Castle and it's fine. I cut an Edge for it since mana is already an issue. It stops flashed Snapcasters, which is more important than stopping Kird Apes.

could one play 3 angels with 3 cliques and 4 snapcasters. I have the problem of not having access to the full four angels right now but is playing 4 angels decent? Why not 3 cliques

Quote from alpinefroggy

could one play 3 angels with 3 cliques and 4 snapcasters. I have the problem of not having access to the full four angels right now but is playing 4 angels decent? Why not 3 cliques

Angels combo with your other pieces very nicely. I was almost never sad to see an Angel in my hand. Flash either Snapcaster Mage or Vendilion Clique EoT and then I can flash in Angel to either protect them from removal or double their ETB effect.

Quote from Dr. Dude

"45 spells? I don't think that's accurate. Delver is bad in Modern, especially with the lack of deck manipulation (and you aren't even running the full suite of Visions). This sounds like a case of a deck looking really good to you on paper, but I assume you haven't playtested it heavily."


why is delver bad in modern but awesome in legacy then? he is just as good in modern. i have play tested it i cant see playing a deck without him that's blue. he either eats a lighting bolt or causes mayhem. either way my life total is safe and after i untap with 2 lands its gg cause they are playing catch up and i sit back and counter. if they tapp out vs any blue deck i just counter or kill untap play giest and now they are in a worse position. applying pressure makes people fold most of the time and 3-4 turns with delver can get the job done as i sit back with my stuff untapped. i don't want to get in an argument over this all i wanted was some sideboard help.

You are wrong, I'm a huge Delver fan but delver is terrible in Modern. It doesn't flip often because you can't usually play 18 lands and 12 creatures because of bad cantrips, it doesn't flip because of bad cantrips, and it easily dies because of no free countermagic. It's also much worse when your opponent has 4+ lands for example, which (almost) never happens in Legacy due to Waste + Stifle and augments its power by tenfold.

In short, playing Delver in Legacy is like driving a Porsche and in Modern is like a Seat Ibiza. Don't play it in any blue deck, honestly

Suggestions against mill decks?