I think it is better to run blood crypt by far as it is fetched by all 8 fetches. While that may not prove important most of the time, it will matter occasionally. I feel like 4 gifts is too many, but maybe I'm off on that. I guess if I am running the one black/red or black/blue shock, I could stick with 1 Unburial Rights. Now the question is Iona + Elesh Norn, or just Elesh Norn. I feel like Iona doesn't do as much as you would want her to, as if you are turn 4 Gift'ing and turn 5 using Rites, they will have at least something on board, meaning Pod can Pod to destroy her (Shriekmaw), Faeries can chump her for days with a bitterblossom up, Splinter Twin either already has the exarch/pestermite up so you have to call red meaning they can cryptic command, and she clearly doesn't do much against affinity.
I don't play Cryptics, as I like to be more aggressive. For your list maybe cut one geist, the hellkite, and one cryptic? One electrolyze can go as well if you like any of those other cards (though I would recommend cutting that one geist strongly if you want to run brimaz).
I think three is the right number for Brimaz.
And yeah, he is really expensive. Which makes me wonder if that's the main reason no one here seems to be trying him out. He does everything we want a creature to do and complements geist nicely.
I will try cutting a cryptic, a geist and an electrolyze. I love hellkite, I am sticking with it. If I can get Brimaz's of course. I may also add back an electrolyze and try onless brimaz but lyze seems bad with zoo being such a thing.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy: UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander: UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
I feel like Iona doesn't do as much as you would want her to, as if you are turn 4 Gift'ing and turn 5 using Rites, they will have at least something on board, meaning Pod can Pod to destroy her (Shriekmaw), Faeries can chump her for days with a bitterblossom up, Splinter Twin either already has the exarch/pestermite up so you have to call red meaning they can cryptic command, and she clearly doesn't do much against affinity.
I think you dont get the point of Iona. It doesnt matter that she is a 7/7 with flying (well, it does, but its not the reason you play her)
The point is, cutting one color off leaves your opp deck walking on one leg. Fae? cut blue and half their deck is usless, barring they hitting their most likely one or two off Gftt. Zoo? cut red and they cant bolt/helix. Uwr? cut white and they cant path. Pod? Cut red for kiki, and maybe green or black for melira. Twin? cut blue. Jund? cut black.
If you cut the color of removal in their deck, she is unkillable. Only then, she being a 7/7 becomes relevant.
Sure, they may have removal in 2 colors, but thats not very common. It doesnt matter that they can chump block her, since they are wasting resources to do so, and you keep playing your own game, while the useless cards in their hand keep piling.
Suppose I'm siding into a Gifts package. Are there any worthwhile targets against Tron? Elesh Norn/Iona just die to Disk or Karn. Inkwell beats Karn, but not Disk. Avacyn beats Disk, but not Karn. Can't figure out if there's a package worth bringing in against them.
Assuming that it's not good enough, what is an acceptable SB plan against Tron? I've been playing 3 Sowing Salts, but sometimes I just don't see it. Maybe I should side Stony Silences as well...
I'm clearly not trying to argue that Iona is worthless, I just don't see very many scenarios where she is better than Elesh Norn to the point where I wouldn't necessarily use a slot on her. I was using faeries as an example where she seems like she would clearly shine, and even then I think Norn is better. If they have Scion + Bitterblossom and 1/2 tokens and a mutavault or two then you can turn off blue all you want, but they just need 1 token that they make each turn to block, and can swing with mutavaults ftw...Elesh Norn, on the other hand, with any mana up for counters to protect her instantly kills their entire deck outside of Mistbind.
I wasn't, again, arguing that Iona is weak, just in our midrange variety, I think we want Norn pretty much every single time. That being said, I guess Iona could shine against Merfolk and Jund. Against merfolk, however, if they don't have much board presence by turn 5 then you probably already won. I guess Jund is a real thing though, but against, Scooze hates the combo out anyways.
Has anyone thought of SB Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir ? I feel like a 1 of could be backbreaking against fae or possibly even in the mirror. An EoT Teferi when they're tapped out or at any point they can't answer him seems like it might be worth the slot in the SB. Not sure what he'd replace however - but it doesn't seem terrible. Makes combat extremely terrible for our opponents as well, and they can't react to counters.
Take it from someone that has cast Gifts->Unburial Rites like a thousand times.
Affinity - Elesh Norn basically kills everything in the deck. They normally pump only toughness. Maybe a stray Arcbound Ravager or Master of Etherium, but if you draw a single Path it's game. And even still, the creature becomes not that scary until there's a Cranial Plating. Without it you can usually afford to just block it since they're playing only like 2 Galvanic Blasts, or just wait it out depending on what you drew before and how much you took. I don't remember ever losing after resolving her but then again they generally weren't playing Master at that time either.
Burn - Iona generally wins games. Alternatively Wurmcoil Engine is a beating too, since gaining life just once is usually enough.
RG Tron - Terastodon is the only card that does anything. Even if you get it, there's no guarantee it instantly wins, like most cards do. They can just draw into more Tron and fetch for it, and Karn away your Terastodon. Or sometimes they get the Oblivion Stone down before and blow everything up. Even still, they are eventually going to get to Tron again, so you'd better find ways to hurt them, and fast.
UWR Midrange/Control - Sundering Titan is cool, you generally buy yourself enough time. You can try your luck with Iona but I find even if you name white, most cards are not white. And then you still have to deal with Cryptic + bounce. In the list's playing Geist, you can typically get away with going for Elesh Norn to buy you time, but it depends on whether buying time is actually good enough.
Merfolk - Iona is generally best here. They're mono blue but often play Vapor Snags which you need to be careful of. The problem with slamming Iona is that things can get out of hand from Aether Vial without casting stuff. You can try and race them, if you've got a bit of removal she should be golden. You can also just block with her, they don't have any tricks really.
UR Delver - Again Iona naming blue generally wins the game. The red spells aren't impressive enough. If they manage to triple Bolt her I'm okay with that.
Jund/BGx - Calling black before Liliana enters play is generally a win. All the removal is black so they get to cast like Bolts or Goyfs which I could care less about when Iona is in play. I don't much care for Elesh Norn here because she dies to a lot of things. It would depend on the exact list, if they're not playing Terminate or Maelstrom Pulse and you're only dodging Liliana, it might be okay.
Twin - Calling blue is generally the best since some lists play Boomerang or Cryptic. The only caveat is that they may have a chance to flash in Pestermite or Exarch. Since Iona is an "as it enters" ability, which isn't a trigger, you get to always have the last say. If they flash in a dude, you always call red so you don't lose next turn. I'd much rather call blue, but honestly, I'm not going to bank on them not having a red card to win with the following turn. Elesh Norn is also not bad simply because they can't combo anymore. It should kill basically every creature in the deck except Exarch, who's now a -1/2, which I'm fine with. They can still answer her but she at least stops them.
Kiki Pod/Melira Pod - Elesh Norn is pretty cool. It kills almost the entire deck, and stops every win condition dead in its tracks. Melira used to play a Metamorph but now that they stopped, we're good. Kiki still plays Zealous Conscripts and Phantasmal Image which can seriously hurt you. You just need to watch out for them, but otherwise you're fine. Iona was awful in my experience, generally speaking they could win from multiple colours because of Pod/Chord. Like in Kiki, even if you named green, the win conditions were blue/white and red. I suppose Melira needs to be green, but even still, if Pod is already in play they can win without casting a green card.
Living End - Iona calling black is pretty much game. The only threats are Living End and Fulminator Mage. You need to watch out for Beast Within but it shouldn't be too bad. Elesh Norn doesn't do anything against Living End.
Scapeshift - Probably the only one we can't win off of this. Sundering Titan hitting 3 lands doesn't help that much to be honest. You don't win fast enough and they can just ramp around it. Iona naming green means they can just bounce from Cryptic, and naming blue means they can just win the game still.
Take it how you will and decide what you'd like to do. I think it costs too many slots. You could probably get away with the 7 that they used to play when they ran this (4 Gifts, 1 Rites, Iona, Elesh Norn). I know for sure I've seen Shahar Shenhar run this out of a USA Delver at a GP (Chicago? it was probably earlier).
Take it from someone that has cast Gifts->Unburial Rites like a thousand times.
Affinity - Elesh Norn basically kills everything in the deck. They normally pump only toughness. Maybe a stray Arcbound Ravager or Master of Etherium, but if you draw a single Path it's game. And even still, the creature becomes not that scary until there's a Cranial Plating. Without it you can usually afford to just block it since they're playing only like 2 Galvanic Blasts, or just wait it out depending on what you drew before and how much you took. I don't remember ever losing after resolving her but then again they generally weren't playing Master at that time either.
Burn - Iona generally wins games. Alternatively Wurmcoil Engine is a beating too, since gaining life just once is usually enough.
RG Tron - Terastodon is the only card that does anything. Even if you get it, there's no guarantee it instantly wins, like most cards do. They can just draw into more Tron and fetch for it, and Karn away your Terastodon. Or sometimes they get the Oblivion Stone down before and blow everything up. Even still, they are eventually going to get to Tron again, so you'd better find ways to hurt them, and fast.
UWR Midrange/Control - Sundering Titan is cool, you generally buy yourself enough time. You can try your luck with Iona but I find even if you name white, most cards are not white. And then you still have to deal with Cryptic + bounce. In the list's playing Geist, you can typically get away with going for Elesh Norn to buy you time, but it depends on whether buying time is actually good enough.
Merfolk - Iona is generally best here. They're mono blue but often play Vapor Snags which you need to be careful of. The problem with slamming Iona is that things can get out of hand from Aether Vial without casting stuff. You can try and race them, if you've got a bit of removal she should be golden. You can also just block with her, they don't have any tricks really.
UR Delver - Again Iona naming blue generally wins the game. The red spells aren't impressive enough. If they manage to triple Bolt her I'm okay with that.
Jund/BGx - Calling black before Liliana enters play is generally a win. All the removal is black so they get to cast like Bolts or Goyfs which I could care less about when Iona is in play. I don't much care for Elesh Norn here because she dies to a lot of things. It would depend on the exact list, if they're not playing Terminate or Maelstrom Pulse and you're only dodging Liliana, it might be okay.
Twin - Calling blue is generally the best since some lists play Boomerang or Cryptic. The only caveat is that they may have a chance to flash in Pestermite or Exarch. Since Iona is an "as it enters" ability, which isn't a trigger, you get to always have the last say. If they flash in a dude, you always call red so you don't lose next turn. I'd much rather call blue, but honestly, I'm not going to bank on them not having a red card to win with the following turn. Elesh Norn is also not bad simply because they can't combo anymore. It should kill basically every creature in the deck except Exarch, who's now a -1/2, which I'm fine with. They can still answer her but she at least stops them.
Kiki Pod/Melira Pod - Elesh Norn is pretty cool. It kills almost the entire deck, and stops every win condition dead in its tracks. Melira used to play a Metamorph but now that they stopped, we're good. Kiki still plays Zealous Conscripts and Phantasmal Image which can seriously hurt you. You just need to watch out for them, but otherwise you're fine. Iona was awful in my experience, generally speaking they could win from multiple colours because of Pod/Chord. Like in Kiki, even if you named green, the win conditions were blue/white and red. I suppose Melira needs to be green, but even still, if Pod is already in play they can win without casting a green card.
Living End - Iona calling black is pretty much game. The only threats are Living End and Fulminator Mage. You need to watch out for Beast Within but it shouldn't be too bad. Elesh Norn doesn't do anything against Living End.
Scapeshift - Probably the only one we can't win off of this. Sundering Titan hitting 3 lands doesn't help that much to be honest. You don't win fast enough and they can just ramp around it. Iona naming green means they can just bounce from Cryptic, and naming blue means they can just win the game still.
Take it how you will and decide what you'd like to do. I think it costs too many slots. You could probably get away with the 7 that they used to play when they ran this (4 Gifts, 1 Rites, Iona, Elesh Norn). I know for sure I've seen Shahar Shenhar run this out of a USA Delver at a GP (Chicago? it was probably earlier).
Isn't Elesh Norn better than Iona against Delver? It kills every creature in their deck and the only bounce that they play is Vapor Snag.
Has anyone thought of SB Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir ? I feel like a 1 of could be backbreaking against fae or possibly even in the mirror. An EoT Teferi when they're tapped out or at any point they can't answer him seems like it might be worth the slot in the SB. Not sure what he'd replace however - but it doesn't seem terrible. Makes combat extremely terrible for our opponents as well, and they can't react to counters.
I actually played him in a few events recently. I had it as a 1-of and boarded it in against UWR Control and Twin. The basic issue is that as a 1-of, you don't see him often enough in those matches because your Electrolyzes and Remands aren't getting cast. He's killer for sure, don't get me wrong on that. I only cast him once and he was Mana Leaked. I have yet to try a plan that involves something like 3 Teferi, though.
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Isn't Elesh Norn better than Iona against Delver? It kills every creature in their deck and the only bounce that they play is Vapor Snag.
Sometimes they play Cryptic, I've at least seen it. And the thing is, with Vapor Snag if they bounce it you basically lost a ton of value. I guess if you kill some creatures. But the thing is, I don't expect to get burned out, especially if they can't cast blue cards as well. Eventually you'll just draw the answers you need for the board state.
I will point out that sometimes you are forced to fetch Elesh Norn when Iona is better against the deck as a whole. I've fetched Elesh Norn against Burn in situations where I'd otherwise be dead on board. So if UR Delver goes turn 1 Delver, turn 2 Pyromancer, turn 3 cast a couple Probes, you might want Elesh Norn instead.
Well, im still running castle and i have been satisfied with it, it has given me more than a few wins helping geist push through, and even a few times my oponentes forgot i had it.
I've been very happy with dropping Eiganjo from my list. It's not basic, unfetchable, and only taps for white. Not all that impressive, actually.
Yeah, Castle is bad. It doesn't save Cliques from the Bolts that they inevitably draw out.
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Well, that's lucky. I guess bad opponents never hurts
Taking advantage of opponents misplays is also an important part of the game. Think of it this way, if i didnt have castle, my opponent wouldnt have misplayed.
Its not like having castle will really make your deck better, but it doesnt hurt either, and it can come in handy, specially vs zoo.
I could cut a CC for a helix. I dont have access to Remands right now. Also I'm really torn between The blade splicer vs geist. A friend of mine said BLade splicer would be better vs. Zoo. Also I was thinking about putting in Slagstorm in place of Anger of the Gods. Should this be an ok replacement?
I think I'm settling on:
3x Gifts Ungiven
1x Unburial Rites
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
I will try cutting a cryptic, a geist and an electrolyze. I love hellkite, I am sticking with it. If I can get Brimaz's of course. I may also add back an electrolyze and try onless brimaz but lyze seems bad with zoo being such a thing.
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
I think you dont get the point of Iona. It doesnt matter that she is a 7/7 with flying (well, it does, but its not the reason you play her)
The point is, cutting one color off leaves your opp deck walking on one leg. Fae? cut blue and half their deck is usless, barring they hitting their most likely one or two off Gftt. Zoo? cut red and they cant bolt/helix. Uwr? cut white and they cant path. Pod? Cut red for kiki, and maybe green or black for melira. Twin? cut blue. Jund? cut black.
If you cut the color of removal in their deck, she is unkillable. Only then, she being a 7/7 becomes relevant.
Sure, they may have removal in 2 colors, but thats not very common. It doesnt matter that they can chump block her, since they are wasting resources to do so, and you keep playing your own game, while the useless cards in their hand keep piling.
Assuming that it's not good enough, what is an acceptable SB plan against Tron? I've been playing 3 Sowing Salts, but sometimes I just don't see it. Maybe I should side Stony Silences as well...
I wasn't, again, arguing that Iona is weak, just in our midrange variety, I think we want Norn pretty much every single time. That being said, I guess Iona could shine against Merfolk and Jund. Against merfolk, however, if they don't have much board presence by turn 5 then you probably already won. I guess Jund is a real thing though, but against, Scooze hates the combo out anyways.
Affinity - Elesh Norn basically kills everything in the deck. They normally pump only toughness. Maybe a stray Arcbound Ravager or Master of Etherium, but if you draw a single Path it's game. And even still, the creature becomes not that scary until there's a Cranial Plating. Without it you can usually afford to just block it since they're playing only like 2 Galvanic Blasts, or just wait it out depending on what you drew before and how much you took. I don't remember ever losing after resolving her but then again they generally weren't playing Master at that time either.
Burn - Iona generally wins games. Alternatively Wurmcoil Engine is a beating too, since gaining life just once is usually enough.
RG Tron - Terastodon is the only card that does anything. Even if you get it, there's no guarantee it instantly wins, like most cards do. They can just draw into more Tron and fetch for it, and Karn away your Terastodon. Or sometimes they get the Oblivion Stone down before and blow everything up. Even still, they are eventually going to get to Tron again, so you'd better find ways to hurt them, and fast.
UWR Midrange/Control - Sundering Titan is cool, you generally buy yourself enough time. You can try your luck with Iona but I find even if you name white, most cards are not white. And then you still have to deal with Cryptic + bounce. In the list's playing Geist, you can typically get away with going for Elesh Norn to buy you time, but it depends on whether buying time is actually good enough.
Merfolk - Iona is generally best here. They're mono blue but often play Vapor Snags which you need to be careful of. The problem with slamming Iona is that things can get out of hand from Aether Vial without casting stuff. You can try and race them, if you've got a bit of removal she should be golden. You can also just block with her, they don't have any tricks really.
UR Delver - Again Iona naming blue generally wins the game. The red spells aren't impressive enough. If they manage to triple Bolt her I'm okay with that.
Jund/BGx - Calling black before Liliana enters play is generally a win. All the removal is black so they get to cast like Bolts or Goyfs which I could care less about when Iona is in play. I don't much care for Elesh Norn here because she dies to a lot of things. It would depend on the exact list, if they're not playing Terminate or Maelstrom Pulse and you're only dodging Liliana, it might be okay.
Twin - Calling blue is generally the best since some lists play Boomerang or Cryptic. The only caveat is that they may have a chance to flash in Pestermite or Exarch. Since Iona is an "as it enters" ability, which isn't a trigger, you get to always have the last say. If they flash in a dude, you always call red so you don't lose next turn. I'd much rather call blue, but honestly, I'm not going to bank on them not having a red card to win with the following turn. Elesh Norn is also not bad simply because they can't combo anymore. It should kill basically every creature in the deck except Exarch, who's now a -1/2, which I'm fine with. They can still answer her but she at least stops them.
Kiki Pod/Melira Pod - Elesh Norn is pretty cool. It kills almost the entire deck, and stops every win condition dead in its tracks. Melira used to play a Metamorph but now that they stopped, we're good. Kiki still plays Zealous Conscripts and Phantasmal Image which can seriously hurt you. You just need to watch out for them, but otherwise you're fine. Iona was awful in my experience, generally speaking they could win from multiple colours because of Pod/Chord. Like in Kiki, even if you named green, the win conditions were blue/white and red. I suppose Melira needs to be green, but even still, if Pod is already in play they can win without casting a green card.
Living End - Iona calling black is pretty much game. The only threats are Living End and Fulminator Mage. You need to watch out for Beast Within but it shouldn't be too bad. Elesh Norn doesn't do anything against Living End.
Scapeshift - Probably the only one we can't win off of this. Sundering Titan hitting 3 lands doesn't help that much to be honest. You don't win fast enough and they can just ramp around it. Iona naming green means they can just bounce from Cryptic, and naming blue means they can just win the game still.
Take it how you will and decide what you'd like to do. I think it costs too many slots. You could probably get away with the 7 that they used to play when they ran this (4 Gifts, 1 Rites, Iona, Elesh Norn). I know for sure I've seen Shahar Shenhar run this out of a USA Delver at a GP (Chicago? it was probably earlier).
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Isn't Elesh Norn better than Iona against Delver? It kills every creature in their deck and the only bounce that they play is Vapor Snag.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I actually played him in a few events recently. I had it as a 1-of and boarded it in against UWR Control and Twin. The basic issue is that as a 1-of, you don't see him often enough in those matches because your Electrolyzes and Remands aren't getting cast. He's killer for sure, don't get me wrong on that. I only cast him once and he was Mana Leaked. I have yet to try a plan that involves something like 3 Teferi, though.
Sometimes they play Cryptic, I've at least seen it. And the thing is, with Vapor Snag if they bounce it you basically lost a ton of value. I guess if you kill some creatures. But the thing is, I don't expect to get burned out, especially if they can't cast blue cards as well. Eventually you'll just draw the answers you need for the board state.
I will point out that sometimes you are forced to fetch Elesh Norn when Iona is better against the deck as a whole. I've fetched Elesh Norn against Burn in situations where I'd otherwise be dead on board. So if UR Delver goes turn 1 Delver, turn 2 Pyromancer, turn 3 cast a couple Probes, you might want Elesh Norn instead.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Well, that's lucky. I guess bad opponents never hurts
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Yeah, Castle is bad. It doesn't save Cliques from the Bolts that they inevitably draw out.
It is also essential if you run brimaz.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
4 celestial colonnade
4 scalding tarn
3 arid mesa
2 tectonic edge
1 plains
3 island
1 mountain
2 steam vents
2 hallowed fountain
1 sacred foundry
2 sulfur falls
I would like to work a castle in there somewhere, I just can't find what to remove.
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Taking advantage of opponents misplays is also an important part of the game. Think of it this way, if i didnt have castle, my opponent wouldnt have misplayed.
Its not like having castle will really make your deck better, but it doesnt hurt either, and it can come in handy, specially vs zoo.
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
3 Tectonic Edge
2 Restoration Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Mana Leak
3 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Blade Splicer
2 Stony Silence
2 Wear // Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Combust
2 Celestial Purge
1 Counterflux
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Volcanic Fallout
I really have no idea what to do at Sbing. Does anyone have a guide on what cards they usually take out?