Ok, right now the cards that I'm considering the most for my sideboard that I think will be contentious are Bonfire of the Damned and Terminus. I know there is hate for miracle cards without manipulation of the top of your deck, but hear me out...
The only way this deck loses to Zoo, Faeries, Merfolk, Pod, or Affinity is generally a cluttered board on the other side. Otherwise, they don't have the access to the burn we do because we play 12 copies of bolt/helix (yay for snapcaster) and they don't have a 3 mana hexproof creature that swings for 6 on a clear board (yay geist). In those games, miracl'ing off the top almost guarantees victory as we have more card draw and snaps and tempo and colonnade, etc...
Now, most people would say, "why not run verdict instead of terminus/bonfire because it can't be countered and destroys better than bonfire and is cheaper than a non-miracle'd terminus?" There is a reason that verdict is never run in this deck practically, and that is because UWR midrange is really UWR tempo...if you are wrath'ing on turn 4 or 5, there is a good chance you are dead meat. However, if you are needing to miracle on turn 4 or 5, there is a very good chance that you can still win. If you wrath on turn 4-6 meaning you can't follow it up with a creature, faeries will keep churning out tokens and will be ready to spellstutter your geist the next turn or tap your lands or do other dirty things. Zoo draws nothing but threats or burn spells, so you are probably already cooked, and any creature will stonewall your assault. Affinity still has that cranial plating on the board, and next turn they will just pop it onto their blink/inkmoth nexus. Doesn't matter that you have wiped the board, you have already lost...
Now, if you are casting bonfire for miracle and you have anything on your side of the board, you suddenly are ahead on board presence and not behind. If you terminus, you have plenty of mana to drop a threat or counter/remove their play next turn.
In conclusion, I don't think this deck is immune from needing some form of wrath-like effect, but if we are going to run one, it needs to fit in the tempo mindset instead of control.
Essentially, if you topdeck terminus and don't want to play it, you are probably already way ahead. If you do play it, you come out ahead most of the time.
Deorum you're awesome! Thank you for your in depth analysis.
Thing is, I have the list you're talking of with the flash creatures. I don't own vendilion because of $$, but I play resto angel/thundermaw in my other deck, along with Geist x4 MB. I'm really trying to figure out how I want to play this deck - I love the colors, I love controlling people, but I also want to have threats that make them feel like they have to deal with it.
Here's the issue, and I don't know if many of you have played against it much, but the new faerie deck is extremely punishing to us. I've practiced against it in about 3 matches online and it's really tough to gain traction against them. Sure if you're able to land a turn 3 geist it's going to be really tough to keep the pressure up if they've got a T2 BB. I'm trying to figure out how to play this archetype, but not get out-countered to spellstutter x4, mana leak x 3, cryptic x4...I feel like part of their counter package is just another creature to provide pressure for them.
I don't feel defeated just yet, and I just happened upon these forums today so I was catching up after the B&R updates and figured I would comment/ask some questions, I didn't realize there was another thread for the control side of this deck. I like where this conversation is going, and look forward to more updates once things in the pro scene form a foundation. I do remember Ari Lax saying that BB would be a horrible unban and "Give me a month, and I'll show you why it's banned" in one of his articles a few months back. I am a bit worried about this matchup - every other matchup I feel is winnable with the right draw and SB plan. I beat a tron/karn/ulamog/emrakul deck earlier tonight and kept them off of everything. Along with burn, red haste gobo's, and jund. It is possible - but then again, variance is a thing.
Anyway, thanks for the comments. I'll be keeping my eye on this thread and look forward to more tuned and updated lists from the modern vets.
Deorum/Rhinne - would you guys post the current list you're running? I would really like to see where you're at with your current builds. Thanks!
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Here's the issue, and I don't know if many of you have played against it much, but the new faerie deck is extremely punishing to us. I've practiced against it in about 3 matches online and it's really tough to gain traction against them. Sure if you're able to land a turn 3 geist it's going to be really tough to keep the pressure up if they've got a T2 BB. I'm trying to figure out how to play this archetype, but not get out-countered to spellstutter x4, mana leak x 3, cryptic x4...I feel like part of their counter package is just another creature to provide pressure for them.
I don't feel defeated just yet, and I just happened upon these forums today so I was catching up after the B&R updates and figured I would comment/ask some questions, I didn't realize there was another thread for the control side of this deck. I like where this conversation is going, and look forward to more updates once things in the pro scene form a foundation. I do remember Ari Lax saying that BB would be a horrible unban and "Give me a month, and I'll show you why it's banned" in one of his articles a few months back. I am a bit worried about this matchup - every other matchup I feel is winnable with the right draw and SB plan. I beat a tron/karn/ulamog/emrakul deck earlier tonight and kept them off of everything. Along with burn, red haste gobo's, and jund. It is possible - but then again, variance is a thing.
This is why I'm even a bigger fan of mainboarding Spell Snare for this new meta. If you didn't get lucky and are on the draw, now you have a defense against that turn 2 Bitterblossom. Against fae, it's hitting BB, Mana Leak, AND Spellstutter Sprite (I thought she was 3 cmc hahah), and maybe Snapcaster too if they run him, so think about how devastating denying them a Turn 2 BB is. Without it, they can only counter your 1 cmc spells with Sprite, up to 2 if they have a Mutavault and the mana to activate it. Running Snare also increases the chances you win counter wars. And it's not limited to Fae either; countering that turn 2 Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Voice of Resurgence, Burning-Tree Emissary helps you slow down Zoo and Jund/Junk and transition into midgame so much more effectively.
I'm not so sure I would rush out Geist on turn 3, especially if Bitterblossom resolved and you know you'll be fighting through tokens, and various flash creatures. That's the situation where you hold up Geist until you can weaken their boardstate or until they tap out enough to play Geist through their counters. That does make sense right? By the time you could attack with Geist, they have 2 tokens down, which means Geist is dead, or no damage is getting through at all. I like that you're running Thundermaw, because that will just destroy Fae, as long as you've kept them off of 2 Scion of Oona's. Granted, you'll have to play around their counters, so you might not be able to slam him turn 5. Going up to 4 electrolyze for that matchup is probably another good idea. Playing Izzet Staticaster in the side (if you expect to see multiple Fae decks in the same event) is also not a bad idea.
Just thought I would pop in and give my take on the matchup, from the side of a Faeries player.
As a straight UB player, I think the matchup is honestly tough for Fae to lose, and by far their best matchup in the format. The biggest issue stems from the fact that t1 discard into t2 BB is pretty much the game. I played the matchup twice this weekend at a GPT. I mulled to 4 against my opponents 7 and beat him without much effort. That should speak to how powerful the whole deck is v Control.
The biggest thing I can recommend is looking at a more catch-all removal spell. I think now is actually a great time for UWR lists to start looking at Detention Sphere and Izzet Staticaster. Faeries really can't deal with enchantments well, and if you drop it on a Blossom turn 3 Mistbind can't protect it. I think we'll start turning away from Scion builds (for now at least) and that opens up additional lines of play. It's also excellent against Zoo, Tron, and tokens. Staticaster forces me to leave in remmoval I might otherwise side out, or waste it on it instead of Colennade. The other big thing I can't stress enough is that a deck with a good amount of burn should adapt their playstyle when playing against Faeries, especially if they land the t2 BB. If that happens, you should have two major goals: keep the board clean enough that I can't just beat you down with tokens, and let my BB do the work for you. If I'm taking 5-8 damage off of my own BB in a game, it significantly cuts down the work your burn package needs to do.
I'm happy to answer any questions you guys have for the matchup, just use reply so it flags me a notification and I'll answer as best I can.
Just thought I would pop in and give my take on the matchup, from the side of a Faeries player.
As a straight UB player, I think the matchup is honestly tough for Fae to lose, and by far their best matchup in the format. The biggest issue stems from the fact that t1 discard into t2 BB is pretty much the game. I played the matchup twice this weekend at a GPT. I mulled to 4 against my opponents 7 and beat him without much effort. That should speak to how powerful the whole deck is v Control.
The biggest thing I can recommend is looking at a more catch-all removal spell. I think now is actually a great time for UWR lists to start looking at Detention Sphere and Izzet Staticaster. Faeries really can't deal with enchantments well, and if you drop it on a Blossom turn 3 Mistbind can't protect it. I think we'll start turning away from Scion builds (for now at least) and that opens up additional lines of play. It's also excellent against Zoo, Tron, and tokens. Staticaster forces me to leave in remmoval I might otherwise side out, or waste it on it instead of Colennade. The other big thing I can't stress enough is that a deck with a good amount of burn should adapt their playstyle when playing against Faeries, especially if they land the t2 BB. If that happens, you should have two major goals: keep the board clean enough that I can't just beat you down with tokens, and let my BB do the work for you. If I'm taking 5-8 damage off of my own BB in a game, it significantly cuts down the work your burn package needs to do.
I'm happy to answer any questions you guys have for the matchup, just use reply so it flags me a notification and I'll answer as best I can.
That's some great insight, thanks very much. In my previous post I had forgotten to consider the implications of Thoughtseize/Inquisition because I derped hard and forgot you ran them. I guess I made some assumptions too, and would like to clarify; do you find cards like Spell Snare and Electrolyze troublesome for Fae? Killing tokens and your x/1's seems pretty powerful, as long as the UWR plays around the plethora of counterspells you'll have, and stopping the turn 2 BB with Snare also seems quite powerful. Just thought I'd ask to see if I was really off base here.
Currently I won't play around Spell Snare very much in Game 1. I don't think many maindeck it, nor do I think it's particularly good in the current meta. If I KNOW I'm against Control, I'll hold BB unless I have a t1 discard to make sure it gets through. Otherwise, I just wait til t4 and either Clique on t3/play it t4 or play it with either mana leakOR spellstutter sprite backup. It's not dead vs. the deck, but I know I really don't care about it once I've resolved a Bitterblossom.
Electrolyze in my eyes is fairly garbage. I don't care if the tokens die, because Bitterblossom gives me a near-endless stream of them. I don't have Scions for it to hit (actually the reason I think Scion is terrible right now), and whats more I think it's bad against the other creature-based decks in the meta like Tokens and Zoo. I'm much more a fan of going the boardwipe route. I think Volcanic Fallout is great against Fae (can wipe out all the manlands and everything but Mistbind, and is uncounterable). The big issue with Fallout is it doesnt do much against Zoo, whereas Anger does. Depends which matchup you feel you need to shore more I guess?
Interesting. I've always found Electrolyze to be a really powerful card in most situations. At worst it's 2 damage to the face and it replaces itself; at best, it's 2-for-1-ing your opponent in some way. I think it's a very efficient spell that fits well with the efficient theme of UWR. So I guess then, what does your Scion-less build look like? Might be useful to have an idea of the direction the fae decks are moving in.
Maybe I'm leaning too far into my time on Tron but Oblivion Stone did a whole lot of work against the matchups like Affinity and Melira where the opponent would clog the board up with garbage. I'm considering 1-3 between main and side. It's a whole lot slower than either EE or Supreme Verdict, but it can both eliminate everything and save my lone attacker. If we're blessed with all the time in the world, it also clears Bogles out pretty well.
I've got a feeling that Restoration Angel is pretty great against Faeries if it sticks. Hard to muster the faeries to counter with Spellstutter and it absorbs a lot of attackers while you burn them out.
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I dont mean to be a jerk, but fgrom what i read here, you guys are making a mistake. This deck isnt control, you know?
So you dont play 4 cryptics, and you certainly dont have a bad mu vs fae.
I have played at least 10 games vs fae, and, barring terribad hands, i have yet to lose. Granted, the players may have been bad, or their lists may have been bad.
But the fact stands that fae is a hard deck to play, so it isnt unlikely that players will make mistakes with it, and while this deck has the same attribute, i think an experienced player can really get ahead from capitalizing those mistakes.
I at first was worried that fae would be a terrible match, but up to know i think its safe to say the game should be at least 50/50, if not more for us. Faeries has for a long time now have a problem handling burn, and they run absolutely zero lifegain to combat it.
Not only is fae a difficult deck to play, but it requires expert timing AND knowledge of every other deck to play. Similar to UWR control but a little bit easier. Wrong timing, wrong casting, wrong stacking on a deck and someone is going to blow you out of the water for your one misplay, and it isn't a deck that recovers from mistakes nicely. They don't have an "oops I made a mistake, lets boardwipe and start over" card like Wafo control. I think there are a few players that it'll be a tough matchup against, but we'll see. I think proper timing and putting a clock out there will make for a decent matchup, not a blow-us-out matchup. I agree with Rhinne on all points.
Also Eyron, I think you're posting in the wrong board?
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I play both UWR and UB Fae. I posted that list in response to someone asking what list I ran this weekend.
If you want to go ahead and underestimate Fae as a matchup that's fine, but that's how it's always crushed people, and will continue to do so. Especially if you don't have the deck properly prepared to face it. I know I'm cutting Electrolyzes down to two for maindeck cards that deal with the matchup appropriately. The deck also does have the ability for some lifegain in the forms of Sword of Light and Shadow, Wurmcoil Engine, and Batterskull, as well as Spellskite to redirect burn damange (only Wurmcoil was available from these the last time this deck was a threat). Since the only real fliers outside of the faerie creatures themselves are white or black tokens, I would absolutely expect SoLaS to be maindecked in most lists not running Scion of Oona, so there is some lifegain to be had.
Shrug. If you want to keep playing Geists MD in a meta that doesn't let it work well, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping you. Spell Snare is literally one of the most meta-dependent cards possible. And Electrolyze doesn't deal with ANY creature in Zoo, Bogles, Tokens with ANY sort of anthem effect, Faeries, Living End, reanimation strategies, etc. etc. etc. If you want to be so narrow-minded that you can't realize that the deck HAS to change in a drastically changing meta, enjoying getting crushed each week.
Chill guys, he's giving another point of view and that's always welcome. Don't make the mistake of not hearing different opinions, be it in MtG or anywhere else in your life.
If Fae and Zoo gets popular, then Electrolyze will be a lot worse, unfortunately. UBx Fae will also have the Thoughtseize/IoK => BB opening and that's really strong. Decks relying on Pyroclasm will also be worse if that happens. Volcanic Fallout will be a SB card at most, given it does nothing vs Zoo.
IMHO UWR Wafo will change more than the Midrange version, but both will have to adapt. I would listen to any input and adjust carefully.
Rhinne - I don't think you're being a jerk, you obviously have a different perspective from others, which I think is awesome. It would help if you could shed some light on the situation instead of just stating that you've won 10 matches against fae and it wasn't close.. Can you share your list please? Talk about some of the choices you've made?
Eyron I think it's great that you came here to share your perspective of the matchup, I don't get the self-righteous responses from people telling you to fk off, dont' pay attention. This should be a constructive atmosphere to talk strategy.
Anyway, everytime I've cast Electrolyze to clean up tokens, in comes Spellstutter Sprite, The thing is, that after BB lands, if you don't have a way to either deal with it, or put GoST on the board the turn after, you have 0 pressure. If someone feels otherwise, please, by all means explain how to win from there if you can't fight against Spellstutter Sprite + Mana Leak if you're just trying to burn them or 2/1 them somehow. You just can't counter anything and they won't be casting any spells because they will kill you with JUST BB if you don't attempt to stop them and play into Spellstutter Sprite, Vendillion Clique, Mana Leak, Cryptic Command, etc. Maybe I'm playing this deck wrong, or the matchup wrong, but that's why I'm here, someone please shed some light on plays to make!
No worries Paul. I actually play both of the decks (though now I lean more towards Fae), which is actually why I came in here. From the UWR perspective:
- You have a bad day when Bitterblossom lands unconstested, especially if it follows t1 discard. When you look at your opening hand, I prefer to look at it through the vein of "can this hand handle that worst-case scenario". If it can, usually a snap-keep.
- Once Blossom lands, the matchup changes how its played. Faeries goes from a semi-tempo deck to a draw-go deck because every Faerie has flash and they can sit on them+counters+removal. So it needs to be treated as a matchup where we play that. This is partially why I've cut down on Geists and gone more on the Snap/Resto plan maindeck, because it works very well against both Zoo and Faeries. I'm maindecking two Volcanic Fallout because my meta is fairly creature-dependent, and Resto is sweet with it.
- A big thing to remember is how Mistbind Clique works. For those who haven't played against it before: Once it resolves, it chooses a target to champion. If you kill it IN RESPONSE to the champion trigger, its effect will fizzle. Meaning the card is not Championed and your lands, more importantly, are not tapped. I've seen people lose games due to thinking "I can't counter this, guess I'll just float mana and kill it after the trigger resolves." If you have Path/burn/whatever but no counter, it's not the end of the world.
A second there. I never said it wasnt close. Do not underestimate fae, the deck is solid. Im just not buying into this panic that suddenly fae and zoo are the best decks ever and the rest doesnt stand a chance.
I disagree on electrolyze being bad vs fae, specially in lists that dont run scion, but i agree on it being bad vs the rest of those decks.
Geist isnt bad vs fae either, they have very few ways to profitably interact with him, and no, double blocks from tokens arent one of it, you are still giving 2 life and 2 turns worth of tokens for that, and keep in mind that uwr still runs eiganjo, or bolt effects.
Fae does have its own threats for sure, and personally im most afraid of scion, that card together with blossom is totally insane, but its not impossible to handle, either.
What im trying to say is that many things have changed since fae was a dominating force, a lot of answers that didnt exist before are now available. The mu wont be a walk in the park, but an experienced uwr player should make short work of most mae players. The interesting matches will be when both payers really know their decks inside out, but even then, uwr has at least 1 and a half years worth of players experimenting with it vs the month, month and a half of fae players, so i think we have a bit of an advantage in the testing area, too.
The way i have faced the match is as a tempo deck. They are just as fast as us, but they lose a lot of life with seize, BB and their lands. So i decided that racing them was the only real shot at winning. The longer the game, the more the fae player will grind you out.
I just tryid to aim every bolt at the face, play snapcasters for more burn instead of counters, and take every opening to hit the fae player. In the end, i could turn their lifeloss into my win, much like we did vs jund in the old days of uwr delver.
Shrug. If you want to keep playing Geists MD in a meta that doesn't let it work well, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping you. Spell Snare is literally one of the most meta-dependent cards possible. And Electrolyze doesn't deal with ANY creature in Zoo, Bogles, Tokens with ANY sort of anthem effect, Faeries, Living End, reanimation strategies, etc. etc. etc. If you want to be so narrow-minded that you can't realize that the deck HAS to change in a drastically changing meta, enjoying getting crushed each week.
The meta hasn't changed yet, so don't act like you know what exactly is going to happen either. Geist is the only threat we have that threatens our opponents. If you remove Geist from the deck, other decks get inevitability, meaning they can just wait us out. You clearly like UWR control, but I don't think you understand how UWR midrange operates. Our goal in game 1 is generally to land Geist and clear the board for swings, and all the removal in our deck allows for that pretty well. For example, against Zoo, if you remove all their threats but have none of your own and they keep drawing gas it doesn't matter. But since they fetch and shock a lot, they are already hurting themselves for 3-5 a game, so one gesit swing already has them half dead, a second spells game with burn to the face or manland over the top...
Eyron, thank you for posting your thoughts on the RWU vs UB Faeries matchup that is sure to be popular over the next PTQ season. A question: since you consider Electrolyze a poor choice in the upcoming meta (I agree it is generally poor against Zoo, I'll have to see it in action against Fae to form an opinion there) do you think it possible that RWU Control will be better off dropping the red for a different color in the future? Electrolyze is the real reason to run red in my opinion. Exchanging it for something like black would allow the use of various tools like actual removal spells (Doom Blade, Smother, etc.) as well as discard of its own. It also would gain access to new tools, such as Esper Charm (a main deck able answer to BB) and potentially even Mystical Teachings.
Edit: ugh, the new forum format is horrendous for posting with a Galaxy.
The only way this deck loses to Zoo, Faeries, Merfolk, Pod, or Affinity is generally a cluttered board on the other side. Otherwise, they don't have the access to the burn we do because we play 12 copies of bolt/helix (yay for snapcaster) and they don't have a 3 mana hexproof creature that swings for 6 on a clear board (yay geist). In those games, miracl'ing off the top almost guarantees victory as we have more card draw and snaps and tempo and colonnade, etc...
Now, most people would say, "why not run verdict instead of terminus/bonfire because it can't be countered and destroys better than bonfire and is cheaper than a non-miracle'd terminus?" There is a reason that verdict is never run in this deck practically, and that is because UWR midrange is really UWR tempo...if you are wrath'ing on turn 4 or 5, there is a good chance you are dead meat. However, if you are needing to miracle on turn 4 or 5, there is a very good chance that you can still win. If you wrath on turn 4-6 meaning you can't follow it up with a creature, faeries will keep churning out tokens and will be ready to spellstutter your geist the next turn or tap your lands or do other dirty things. Zoo draws nothing but threats or burn spells, so you are probably already cooked, and any creature will stonewall your assault. Affinity still has that cranial plating on the board, and next turn they will just pop it onto their blink/inkmoth nexus. Doesn't matter that you have wiped the board, you have already lost...
Now, if you are casting bonfire for miracle and you have anything on your side of the board, you suddenly are ahead on board presence and not behind. If you terminus, you have plenty of mana to drop a threat or counter/remove their play next turn.
In conclusion, I don't think this deck is immune from needing some form of wrath-like effect, but if we are going to run one, it needs to fit in the tempo mindset instead of control.
Essentially, if you topdeck terminus and don't want to play it, you are probably already way ahead. If you do play it, you come out ahead most of the time.
Thing is, I have the list you're talking of with the flash creatures. I don't own vendilion because of $$, but I play resto angel/thundermaw in my other deck, along with Geist x4 MB. I'm really trying to figure out how I want to play this deck - I love the colors, I love controlling people, but I also want to have threats that make them feel like they have to deal with it.
Here's the issue, and I don't know if many of you have played against it much, but the new faerie deck is extremely punishing to us. I've practiced against it in about 3 matches online and it's really tough to gain traction against them. Sure if you're able to land a turn 3 geist it's going to be really tough to keep the pressure up if they've got a T2 BB. I'm trying to figure out how to play this archetype, but not get out-countered to spellstutter x4, mana leak x 3, cryptic x4...I feel like part of their counter package is just another creature to provide pressure for them.
I don't feel defeated just yet, and I just happened upon these forums today so I was catching up after the B&R updates and figured I would comment/ask some questions, I didn't realize there was another thread for the control side of this deck. I like where this conversation is going, and look forward to more updates once things in the pro scene form a foundation. I do remember Ari Lax saying that BB would be a horrible unban and "Give me a month, and I'll show you why it's banned" in one of his articles a few months back. I am a bit worried about this matchup - every other matchup I feel is winnable with the right draw and SB plan. I beat a tron/karn/ulamog/emrakul deck earlier tonight and kept them off of everything. Along with burn, red haste gobo's, and jund. It is possible - but then again, variance is a thing.
Anyway, thanks for the comments. I'll be keeping my eye on this thread and look forward to more tuned and updated lists from the modern vets.
Deorum/Rhinne - would you guys post the current list you're running? I would really like to see where you're at with your current builds. Thanks!
This is why I'm even a bigger fan of mainboarding Spell Snare for this new meta. If you didn't get lucky and are on the draw, now you have a defense against that turn 2 Bitterblossom. Against fae, it's hitting BB, Mana Leak, AND Spellstutter Sprite (I thought she was 3 cmc hahah), and maybe Snapcaster too if they run him, so think about how devastating denying them a Turn 2 BB is. Without it, they can only counter your 1 cmc spells with Sprite, up to 2 if they have a Mutavault and the mana to activate it. Running Snare also increases the chances you win counter wars. And it's not limited to Fae either; countering that turn 2 Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Voice of Resurgence, Burning-Tree Emissary helps you slow down Zoo and Jund/Junk and transition into midgame so much more effectively.
I'm not so sure I would rush out Geist on turn 3, especially if Bitterblossom resolved and you know you'll be fighting through tokens, and various flash creatures. That's the situation where you hold up Geist until you can weaken their boardstate or until they tap out enough to play Geist through their counters. That does make sense right? By the time you could attack with Geist, they have 2 tokens down, which means Geist is dead, or no damage is getting through at all. I like that you're running Thundermaw, because that will just destroy Fae, as long as you've kept them off of 2 Scion of Oona's. Granted, you'll have to play around their counters, so you might not be able to slam him turn 5. Going up to 4 electrolyze for that matchup is probably another good idea. Playing Izzet Staticaster in the side (if you expect to see multiple Fae decks in the same event) is also not a bad idea.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
As a straight UB player, I think the matchup is honestly tough for Fae to lose, and by far their best matchup in the format. The biggest issue stems from the fact that t1 discard into t2 BB is pretty much the game. I played the matchup twice this weekend at a GPT. I mulled to 4 against my opponents 7 and beat him without much effort. That should speak to how powerful the whole deck is v Control.
The biggest thing I can recommend is looking at a more catch-all removal spell. I think now is actually a great time for UWR lists to start looking at Detention Sphere and Izzet Staticaster. Faeries really can't deal with enchantments well, and if you drop it on a Blossom turn 3 Mistbind can't protect it. I think we'll start turning away from Scion builds (for now at least) and that opens up additional lines of play. It's also excellent against Zoo, Tron, and tokens. Staticaster forces me to leave in remmoval I might otherwise side out, or waste it on it instead of Colennade. The other big thing I can't stress enough is that a deck with a good amount of burn should adapt their playstyle when playing against Faeries, especially if they land the t2 BB. If that happens, you should have two major goals: keep the board clean enough that I can't just beat you down with tokens, and let my BB do the work for you. If I'm taking 5-8 damage off of my own BB in a game, it significantly cuts down the work your burn package needs to do.
I'm happy to answer any questions you guys have for the matchup, just use reply so it flags me a notification and I'll answer as best I can.
UB Faeries GP Record - 22/9/2, 1 Top 64
That's some great insight, thanks very much. In my previous post I had forgotten to consider the implications of Thoughtseize/Inquisition because I derped hard and forgot you ran them. I guess I made some assumptions too, and would like to clarify; do you find cards like Spell Snare and Electrolyze troublesome for Fae? Killing tokens and your x/1's seems pretty powerful, as long as the UWR plays around the plethora of counterspells you'll have, and stopping the turn 2 BB with Snare also seems quite powerful. Just thought I'd ask to see if I was really off base here.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
Electrolyze in my eyes is fairly garbage. I don't care if the tokens die, because Bitterblossom gives me a near-endless stream of them. I don't have Scions for it to hit (actually the reason I think Scion is terrible right now), and whats more I think it's bad against the other creature-based decks in the meta like Tokens and Zoo. I'm much more a fan of going the boardwipe route. I think Volcanic Fallout is great against Fae (can wipe out all the manlands and everything but Mistbind, and is uncounterable). The big issue with Fallout is it doesnt do much against Zoo, whereas Anger does. Depends which matchup you feel you need to shore more I guess?
UB Faeries GP Record - 22/9/2, 1 Top 64
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
I've got a feeling that Restoration Angel is pretty great against Faeries if it sticks. Hard to muster the faeries to counter with Spellstutter and it absorbs a lot of attackers while you burn them out.
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Mistbind Clique
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
Spells
4 Bitterblossom
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Thoughtseize
3 Mana Leak
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Smother
1 Go for the Throat
1 Agony Warp
1 Vapor Snag
4 Cryptic Command
4 Secluded Glen
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Mutavault
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Watery Grave
5 Island
2 Swamp
2 Spellskite
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Negate
2 Damnation
2 Deathmark
2 Spreading Seas
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Surgical Extraction
Deck should have 4 River of Tears instead of the shocks/2 islands, and I wanted a SoFaI over SoFaF but couldn't locate it.
UB Faeries GP Record - 22/9/2, 1 Top 64
So you dont play 4 cryptics, and you certainly dont have a bad mu vs fae.
I have played at least 10 games vs fae, and, barring terribad hands, i have yet to lose. Granted, the players may have been bad, or their lists may have been bad.
But the fact stands that fae is a hard deck to play, so it isnt unlikely that players will make mistakes with it, and while this deck has the same attribute, i think an experienced player can really get ahead from capitalizing those mistakes.
I at first was worried that fae would be a terrible match, but up to know i think its safe to say the game should be at least 50/50, if not more for us. Faeries has for a long time now have a problem handling burn, and they run absolutely zero lifegain to combat it.
Also Eyron, I think you're posting in the wrong board?
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
If you want to go ahead and underestimate Fae as a matchup that's fine, but that's how it's always crushed people, and will continue to do so. Especially if you don't have the deck properly prepared to face it. I know I'm cutting Electrolyzes down to two for maindeck cards that deal with the matchup appropriately. The deck also does have the ability for some lifegain in the forms of Sword of Light and Shadow, Wurmcoil Engine, and Batterskull, as well as Spellskite to redirect burn damange (only Wurmcoil was available from these the last time this deck was a threat). Since the only real fliers outside of the faerie creatures themselves are white or black tokens, I would absolutely expect SoLaS to be maindecked in most lists not running Scion of Oona, so there is some lifegain to be had.
UB Faeries GP Record - 22/9/2, 1 Top 64
UB Faeries GP Record - 22/9/2, 1 Top 64
UB Faeries GP Record - 22/9/2, 1 Top 64
If Fae and Zoo gets popular, then Electrolyze will be a lot worse, unfortunately. UBx Fae will also have the Thoughtseize/IoK => BB opening and that's really strong. Decks relying on Pyroclasm will also be worse if that happens. Volcanic Fallout will be a SB card at most, given it does nothing vs Zoo.
IMHO UWR Wafo will change more than the Midrange version, but both will have to adapt. I would listen to any input and adjust carefully.
Eyron I think it's great that you came here to share your perspective of the matchup, I don't get the self-righteous responses from people telling you to fk off, dont' pay attention. This should be a constructive atmosphere to talk strategy.
Anyway, everytime I've cast Electrolyze to clean up tokens, in comes Spellstutter Sprite, The thing is, that after BB lands, if you don't have a way to either deal with it, or put GoST on the board the turn after, you have 0 pressure. If someone feels otherwise, please, by all means explain how to win from there if you can't fight against Spellstutter Sprite + Mana Leak if you're just trying to burn them or 2/1 them somehow. You just can't counter anything and they won't be casting any spells because they will kill you with JUST BB if you don't attempt to stop them and play into Spellstutter Sprite, Vendillion Clique, Mana Leak, Cryptic Command, etc. Maybe I'm playing this deck wrong, or the matchup wrong, but that's why I'm here, someone please shed some light on plays to make!
- You have a bad day when Bitterblossom lands unconstested, especially if it follows t1 discard. When you look at your opening hand, I prefer to look at it through the vein of "can this hand handle that worst-case scenario". If it can, usually a snap-keep.
- Once Blossom lands, the matchup changes how its played. Faeries goes from a semi-tempo deck to a draw-go deck because every Faerie has flash and they can sit on them+counters+removal. So it needs to be treated as a matchup where we play that. This is partially why I've cut down on Geists and gone more on the Snap/Resto plan maindeck, because it works very well against both Zoo and Faeries. I'm maindecking two Volcanic Fallout because my meta is fairly creature-dependent, and Resto is sweet with it.
- A big thing to remember is how Mistbind Clique works. For those who haven't played against it before: Once it resolves, it chooses a target to champion. If you kill it IN RESPONSE to the champion trigger, its effect will fizzle. Meaning the card is not Championed and your lands, more importantly, are not tapped. I've seen people lose games due to thinking "I can't counter this, guess I'll just float mana and kill it after the trigger resolves." If you have Path/burn/whatever but no counter, it's not the end of the world.
UB Faeries GP Record - 22/9/2, 1 Top 64
I disagree on electrolyze being bad vs fae, specially in lists that dont run scion, but i agree on it being bad vs the rest of those decks.
Geist isnt bad vs fae either, they have very few ways to profitably interact with him, and no, double blocks from tokens arent one of it, you are still giving 2 life and 2 turns worth of tokens for that, and keep in mind that uwr still runs eiganjo, or bolt effects.
Fae does have its own threats for sure, and personally im most afraid of scion, that card together with blossom is totally insane, but its not impossible to handle, either.
What im trying to say is that many things have changed since fae was a dominating force, a lot of answers that didnt exist before are now available. The mu wont be a walk in the park, but an experienced uwr player should make short work of most mae players. The interesting matches will be when both payers really know their decks inside out, but even then, uwr has at least 1 and a half years worth of players experimenting with it vs the month, month and a half of fae players, so i think we have a bit of an advantage in the testing area, too.
The way i have faced the match is as a tempo deck. They are just as fast as us, but they lose a lot of life with seize, BB and their lands. So i decided that racing them was the only real shot at winning. The longer the game, the more the fae player will grind you out.
I just tryid to aim every bolt at the face, play snapcasters for more burn instead of counters, and take every opening to hit the fae player. In the end, i could turn their lifeloss into my win, much like we did vs jund in the old days of uwr delver.
The meta hasn't changed yet, so don't act like you know what exactly is going to happen either. Geist is the only threat we have that threatens our opponents. If you remove Geist from the deck, other decks get inevitability, meaning they can just wait us out. You clearly like UWR control, but I don't think you understand how UWR midrange operates. Our goal in game 1 is generally to land Geist and clear the board for swings, and all the removal in our deck allows for that pretty well. For example, against Zoo, if you remove all their threats but have none of your own and they keep drawing gas it doesn't matter. But since they fetch and shock a lot, they are already hurting themselves for 3-5 a game, so one gesit swing already has them half dead, a second spells game with burn to the face or manland over the top...
Edit: ugh, the new forum format is horrendous for posting with a Galaxy.