Yeah a GP is much different because you face a wider range of decks and a more standard spread of them. Boggles isn't a tier 1 deck but against certain decks it has a really good matchup. The interview Shahar did he said he thought the matchup was 90/10 in Reid's favour and someone told him it wasn't even that good for him, it was like 95/5. Reid just knew exactly what to bring that day.
A GP is just more difficult because you will face more standard stuff like Jund, Affinity, Twin, Pod, etc. You also have to play a lot more rounds
The point is you have access to counterspells to back up the Geist at which point he is completely superior to Spilcer in every way. Was it just coincidence that the GP Prague winner ran 0 Splicers and 4 Geists with 3 Cryptic Commands backing it up? Let's learn from our successes as well as our failures no?
Way to completely miss the point of what I was saying dude. I agree that Geist is the correct choice in this deck, check my post before that. And yes I understand you are trying to help the people in this thread to reach a consensus on the best core of the deck, but you have to use real arguments.
You can't come in here and spout stuff that is blatantly wrong as your evidence for the superiority of Geist and that was what I was pointing out. Once again your zealousness in getting everyone to agree with your point of view has completely undermined your argument. What happens if a new player comes in here and no one calls you on how blatantly wrong that was. They run out Geist because they think its a strong play against lil decks?
Splicer is better against Lil. Fact. Geist dies to a lil played after him always. Just deal and reason your arguments better.
Way to completely miss the point of what I was saying dude. I agree that Geist is the correct choice in this deck, check my post before that. And yes I understand you are trying to help the people in this thread to reach a consensus on the best core of the deck, but you have to use real arguments.
You can't come in here and spout stuff that is blatantly wrong as your evidence for the superiority of Geist and that was what I was pointing out. Once again your zealousness in getting everyone to agree with your point of view has completely undermined your argument. What happens if a new player comes in here and no one calls you on how blatantly wrong that was. They run out Geist because they think its a strong play against lil decks?
Splicer is better against Lil. Fact. Geist dies to a lil played after him always. Just deal and reason your arguments better.
I linked the results of SPlicer in tournys and the results of Geist in tourneys. Geist won the GP. DO i really need to keep justifying Geist? If you actually agree he belongs here then how about hopping on board and working towards a consolidated core that defines the deck instead of nitpicking and arguing semantics about hypothetical situations.
I linked the results of SPlicer in tournys and the results of Geist in tourneys. Geist won the GP. DO i really need to keep justifying Geist? If you actually agree he belongs here then how about hopping on board and working towards a consolidated core that defines the deck instead of nitpicking and arguing semantics about hypothetical situations.
Yes, you do. This is a midrange deck, there's not really a core. Sure, there are some cards that seem better than others, but there's no definitive core. It's not like, say Tron, where you have a definitive core of 12 Tron lands and 4 Expedition Maps, in any version of the deck.
Sure, Geist is probably better than Splicer. But I've seen Splicer in play before and I've seen it do some good things. I think it's possible it's better against Liliana. And in a specific meta, you may make such a decision, just the same way you might make the decision to just play no Geist and play control rather than midrange.
I think we all already know what the core is, but we'd rather find what's the optimal build and find what some meta decisions are. I find we get more out of this discussion to argue how good certain cards are than to accept "Geist is just the best". What if Geist wasn't the best? What if, in a hypothetical situation, Splicer was better. Then someone would be saying "see, I told you so". You can't just assume Geist must be the best unless you have data about both subjects to back it up.
Also, this is the internet. We love nitpicking and arguing semantics. I thought you'd get that by now.
There is no established core, we are trying to interact with our opponents. Geist is better at this time but for some reason maybe tomorrow everyone starts playing lil decks. Great we are now prepared to switch our gameplan for the splicer, angel build.
There should not be a core you 'must' play, as a player you should playtest your deck and tweak it according to your playstyle, christ deckbuilding is such an important part of the game and not learning it will impact on your play. Yes I said that, deckbuilding helps you play, youll understand stats and chances and bluffs and reads far better.
There is no established core, we are trying to interact with our opponents. Geist is better at this time but for some reason maybe tomorrow everyone starts playing lil decks. Great we are now prepared to switch our gameplan for the splicer, angel build.
There should not be a core you 'must' play, as a player you should playtest your deck and tweak it according to your playstyle, christ deckbuilding is such an important part of the game and not learning it will impact on your play. Yes I said that, deckbuilding helps you play, youll understand stats and chances and bluffs and reads far better.
You aren't telling me anything I don't already know. Deck building and innovating is what I am good at. There is, however, an advantage to consolidating a core for this deck and establishing an identity - we can begin to quantify the deck and develop consistent strategies regarding it. If you leave this thread to the way it has been in the past you are basically talking about a whole range of decks, varying from the highly aggro to the borderline control. The line where a deck like this ceases to become "UWR Midrange" needs to be drawn. The GP winning list was borderline UWR control. I submit that discussions should be focused on walking that fine line between midrange and control.
Every netdeck has a core, Jund, Pod, even Red Burn which has a multitude of interchangeable spells. Without a defining core the thread and deck becomes convoluted and almost impossible to develop. How can someone with a good idea respond to a post if he has no idea what version the poster is running?
Guys, i think you are discussing different things. Its one thing to argue who is better between geist and splicer (btw, geist is) and another matter to argue who is better in a specific situation or a certain match up, for example agaisnt a resolved liliana otv (btw, splicer is).
A card may be better in general, but worse in a certain game, hence the sideboard. I dont think this discussion is gonna be useful at all, to be honest.
So, I started playing this deck this weekend with the GP list and would like to ask you guys some questions:
How aggressively you play Geist? Slam it ASAP (unless against combo, of course)?
How do you sideboard? I saw myself taking out 2-3 copies of Geist a lot of times, especially versus combo decks or decks that just can block me all day despite my removal. Is that right?
In which matchups you assume the control role? By that I mean, taking out all Geists and boarding in more counters/removal etc.
So, I started playing this deck this weekend with the GP list and would like to ask you guys some questions:
How aggressively you play Geist? Slam it ASAP (unless against combo, of course)?
How do you sideboard? I saw myself taking out 2-3 copies of Geist a lot of times, especially versus combo decks or decks that just can block me all day despite my removal. Is that right?
In which matchups you assume the control role? By that I mean, taking out all Geists and boarding in more counters/removal etc.
I want to slam Geist if I'm reasonably sure it will survive the next turn and won't be countered. So against some other UWR deck with 2 mana up, I'll save my Geist. If there's some combo that will win next turn I'll save my Geist as well. Barring that, I generally want to just slam it and hope it pans out.
The whole reason the format moved to UWR Control was because Geist wasn't that great. There are way too many decks that they simply just block Geist. Pod is a good example, they'll happily trade their Finks for our Geist. Especially against combo decks like Twin you don't really get any value from Geist, you'd rather bank on something like Colonnade or Snapcaster with counter backup.
The way I like to view matchups is to see whether Geist + Bolt will win. If I can just Geist and Bolt my way to victory, then I'm down to keep as the aggressor. If I suspect that Geist won't get through very often or I'll die tapping out for Geist, I'll just move to a more controlling shell. So like, against Twin and Pod I'd rather move to a control shell, aggro I'd probably want to keep Geist in, UWR Control I definitely want Geist in. Jund it's probably still fine since your Bolt goes a long way.
I'm considering this deck for GP Richmond. It seems to have a decent Affinity/Twin match-up while being even against Jund. Is that accurate? What are the bad match-ups?
I want to slam Geist if I'm reasonably sure it will survive the next turn and won't be countered. So against some other UWR deck with 2 mana up, I'll save my Geist. If there's some combo that will win next turn I'll save my Geist as well. Barring that, I generally want to just slam it and hope it pans out.
The whole reason the format moved to UWR Control was because Geist wasn't that great. There are way too many decks that they simply just block Geist. Pod is a good example, they'll happily trade their Finks for our Geist. Especially against combo decks like Twin you don't really get any value from Geist, you'd rather bank on something like Colonnade or Snapcaster with counter backup.
The way I like to view matchups is to see whether Geist + Bolt will win. If I can just Geist and Bolt my way to victory, then I'm down to keep as the aggressor. If I suspect that Geist won't get through very often or I'll die tapping out for Geist, I'll just move to a more controlling shell. So like, against Twin and Pod I'd rather move to a control shell, aggro I'd probably want to keep Geist in, UWR Control I definitely want Geist in. Jund it's probably still fine since your Bolt goes a long way.
That seems pretty accurate. Just watch out if jund has double B on the table, a liliana might be coming down next turn, dont play geist unless you have a bolt or an electrolyze to get liliana.
Regarding match ups, i dont think there are any real BAD ones. I suppose jund is the one i ant to faceless, since its really op draw dependant, mmm maybe the mirror too, its really a "who can get a geist online first" game.
Boggles would be the worst, if that deck even exists anymore.
That seems pretty accurate. Just watch out if jund has double B on the table, a liliana might be coming down next turn, dont play geist unless you have a bolt or an electrolyze to get liliana.
Regarding match ups, i dont think there are any real BAD ones. I suppose jund is the one i ant to faceless, since its really op draw dependant, mmm maybe the mirror too, its really a "who can get a geist online first" game.
Boggles would be the worst, if that deck even exists anymore.
I agree with Rhinne, UWR doesn't get blown out by many decks, but I would go so far as to say that depending on how you've tweaked your own list, some matchups might be harder than others. Right now, the way I have mine with 2 Elspeth and 2 Thundermaw main means I'm going to suffer against combo (and maybe some hyper aggro) lists, but I'm going to walk all over midrangey decks like Jund and Junk. Depending on what you expect to see in your meta, you should adjust your mainboard as well as sideboard. I'm expecting to see mostly midrange on Wednesday, so that's my reasoning for the above, but if I was expecting to see tons of combo, Elspeth wouldn't even make it into my sideboard.
Boggles is definitely an uphill battle, as are most fringe, unfair decks like Heartbeat of Spring/Early Harvest, Amulet of Vigor, Gifts Control, maybe monoblack discard? Although for mono B if you can stick Geist and dodge Lili, you're home free.
Boggles is definitely an uphill battle, as are most fringe, unfair decks like Heartbeat of Spring/Early Harvest, Amulet of Vigor, Gifts Control, maybe monoblack discard? Although for mono B if you can stick Geist and dodge Lili, you're home free.
I am curious, what makes fringe decks tough versus this deck?
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Modern: RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy: UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander: UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
I am curious, what makes fringe decks tough versus this deck?
Maybe I just haven't played against them enough and I lack the necessary skill, but it seems to me that UWR thrives against fair decks. It runs super efficient removal, super efficient beaters, and strives to slowly outvalue the opponent. A lot of fringe decks have funky combos. Take the Amulet of Vigor deck for example, if they get their combo off Turn 2 and they're on the play, you're staring down a Turn 2 Primeval Titan and it's GG unless you have path. Even then, you're 2 lands behind.
Idk, slowing them down via Bolt/Helix/Remand every turn while putting on Geist pressure is how I play the deck, and if they're going to vomit their hand onto the field or generate a ton of mana quickly and drop a huge threat, then you can't really do that.
I am curious, what makes fringe decks tough versus this deck?
Fringe decks steal wins by attacking at angles you are not prepared for. Take 8Rack for example. Hand control strategies (discard decks) are not well represented in modern, despite being strictly superior to their mass-counterspell deck cousins.
I can take 8Rack and consistently mop the floor with any UWR deck, be it control or midrange. It's not even difficult, discard the counterspells and or few critters and UWR is left with an agonizingly slow burn deck. Discard is immune to counterspells, and without those, UWR is left woefully vulnerable.
Can you defend yourself against Discard with the proper cards? Of course. Will you devote precious deck space to do so? Of course not. This conundrum is why meta assassin decks like 8Rack can prey upon the netdecking masses.
Netdeckers all share the same weakness: predictability. The savvy meta assassin can punish those who are unable or unwilling to innovate, but still want to play MTG.
Damn it Jim I'm a brewer, not a fortune teller. Jan Miller took 8Rack to 87th place in it's first appearance in a GP, and he was quite new to the deck. I make no claims that 8Rack is capable of winning a GP, but then again who knows. I have personally won 4 daily's with it in the last 3 weeks. The most recent win I beat UWR midrange in the final round. He was running those laughable blade splicers, and was thoroughly trounced.
Do remember that discard is specially effective vs counterspells and is the most efficient way to get rid of geist, so UWR decks (mainly control, but midrange too to a certain degree) ARE vulnerable to such strategies.
Try the same thing vs melira pod, junk or jund, and lets see how that goes.
Do remember that discard is specially effective vs counterspells and is the most efficient way to get rid of geist, so UWR decks (mainly control, but midrange too to a certain degree) ARE vulnerable to such strategies.
Try the same thing vs melira pod, junk or jund, and lets see how that goes.
Meh. Discussing 8rack matchup vs other decks would derail this thread. I only bring it up here because the guy asked how fringe decks can threaten uwr. My point was that fringe decks attack at angles that the predictable netdecks cannot prepare for. This point is well demonstrated in the 8rack vs uwr match up.
This is what I have been testing with recently, and it has been successful in testing, but I am still not 100% sold on it. I've seen your discussions about Blade Splicer and I am still not sure how I feel about it. I am working on a bit of a budget currently, but I plan to have all of the fetches in the not too distant future. I appreciate any help that I get, and any lists are more than welcome. I know that UWR has a lot too offer and I am excited to see what kind of decklists you guys play and have success with. Thanks!
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A GP is just more difficult because you will face more standard stuff like Jund, Affinity, Twin, Pod, etc. You also have to play a lot more rounds
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Way to completely miss the point of what I was saying dude. I agree that Geist is the correct choice in this deck, check my post before that. And yes I understand you are trying to help the people in this thread to reach a consensus on the best core of the deck, but you have to use real arguments.
You can't come in here and spout stuff that is blatantly wrong as your evidence for the superiority of Geist and that was what I was pointing out. Once again your zealousness in getting everyone to agree with your point of view has completely undermined your argument. What happens if a new player comes in here and no one calls you on how blatantly wrong that was. They run out Geist because they think its a strong play against lil decks?
Splicer is better against Lil. Fact. Geist dies to a lil played after him always. Just deal and reason your arguments better.
I linked the results of SPlicer in tournys and the results of Geist in tourneys. Geist won the GP. DO i really need to keep justifying Geist? If you actually agree he belongs here then how about hopping on board and working towards a consolidated core that defines the deck instead of nitpicking and arguing semantics about hypothetical situations.
Yes, you do. This is a midrange deck, there's not really a core. Sure, there are some cards that seem better than others, but there's no definitive core. It's not like, say Tron, where you have a definitive core of 12 Tron lands and 4 Expedition Maps, in any version of the deck.
Sure, Geist is probably better than Splicer. But I've seen Splicer in play before and I've seen it do some good things. I think it's possible it's better against Liliana. And in a specific meta, you may make such a decision, just the same way you might make the decision to just play no Geist and play control rather than midrange.
I think we all already know what the core is, but we'd rather find what's the optimal build and find what some meta decisions are. I find we get more out of this discussion to argue how good certain cards are than to accept "Geist is just the best". What if Geist wasn't the best? What if, in a hypothetical situation, Splicer was better. Then someone would be saying "see, I told you so". You can't just assume Geist must be the best unless you have data about both subjects to back it up.
Also, this is the internet. We love nitpicking and arguing semantics. I thought you'd get that by now.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
There should not be a core you 'must' play, as a player you should playtest your deck and tweak it according to your playstyle, christ deckbuilding is such an important part of the game and not learning it will impact on your play. Yes I said that, deckbuilding helps you play, youll understand stats and chances and bluffs and reads far better.
You aren't telling me anything I don't already know. Deck building and innovating is what I am good at. There is, however, an advantage to consolidating a core for this deck and establishing an identity - we can begin to quantify the deck and develop consistent strategies regarding it. If you leave this thread to the way it has been in the past you are basically talking about a whole range of decks, varying from the highly aggro to the borderline control. The line where a deck like this ceases to become "UWR Midrange" needs to be drawn. The GP winning list was borderline UWR control. I submit that discussions should be focused on walking that fine line between midrange and control.
Every netdeck has a core, Jund, Pod, even Red Burn which has a multitude of interchangeable spells. Without a defining core the thread and deck becomes convoluted and almost impossible to develop. How can someone with a good idea respond to a post if he has no idea what version the poster is running?
A card may be better in general, but worse in a certain game, hence the sideboard. I dont think this discussion is gonna be useful at all, to be honest.
How aggressively you play Geist? Slam it ASAP (unless against combo, of course)?
How do you sideboard? I saw myself taking out 2-3 copies of Geist a lot of times, especially versus combo decks or decks that just can block me all day despite my removal. Is that right?
In which matchups you assume the control role? By that I mean, taking out all Geists and boarding in more counters/removal etc.
I want to slam Geist if I'm reasonably sure it will survive the next turn and won't be countered. So against some other UWR deck with 2 mana up, I'll save my Geist. If there's some combo that will win next turn I'll save my Geist as well. Barring that, I generally want to just slam it and hope it pans out.
The whole reason the format moved to UWR Control was because Geist wasn't that great. There are way too many decks that they simply just block Geist. Pod is a good example, they'll happily trade their Finks for our Geist. Especially against combo decks like Twin you don't really get any value from Geist, you'd rather bank on something like Colonnade or Snapcaster with counter backup.
The way I like to view matchups is to see whether Geist + Bolt will win. If I can just Geist and Bolt my way to victory, then I'm down to keep as the aggressor. If I suspect that Geist won't get through very often or I'll die tapping out for Geist, I'll just move to a more controlling shell. So like, against Twin and Pod I'd rather move to a control shell, aggro I'd probably want to keep Geist in, UWR Control I definitely want Geist in. Jund it's probably still fine since your Bolt goes a long way.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
That seems pretty accurate. Just watch out if jund has double B on the table, a liliana might be coming down next turn, dont play geist unless you have a bolt or an electrolyze to get liliana.
Regarding match ups, i dont think there are any real BAD ones. I suppose jund is the one i ant to faceless, since its really op draw dependant, mmm maybe the mirror too, its really a "who can get a geist online first" game.
Boggles would be the worst, if that deck even exists anymore.
I agree with Rhinne, UWR doesn't get blown out by many decks, but I would go so far as to say that depending on how you've tweaked your own list, some matchups might be harder than others. Right now, the way I have mine with 2 Elspeth and 2 Thundermaw main means I'm going to suffer against combo (and maybe some hyper aggro) lists, but I'm going to walk all over midrangey decks like Jund and Junk. Depending on what you expect to see in your meta, you should adjust your mainboard as well as sideboard. I'm expecting to see mostly midrange on Wednesday, so that's my reasoning for the above, but if I was expecting to see tons of combo, Elspeth wouldn't even make it into my sideboard.
Boggles is definitely an uphill battle, as are most fringe, unfair decks like Heartbeat of Spring/Early Harvest, Amulet of Vigor, Gifts Control, maybe monoblack discard? Although for mono B if you can stick Geist and dodge Lili, you're home free.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
I am curious, what makes fringe decks tough versus this deck?
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
Maybe I just haven't played against them enough and I lack the necessary skill, but it seems to me that UWR thrives against fair decks. It runs super efficient removal, super efficient beaters, and strives to slowly outvalue the opponent. A lot of fringe decks have funky combos. Take the Amulet of Vigor deck for example, if they get their combo off Turn 2 and they're on the play, you're staring down a Turn 2 Primeval Titan and it's GG unless you have path. Even then, you're 2 lands behind.
Idk, slowing them down via Bolt/Helix/Remand every turn while putting on Geist pressure is how I play the deck, and if they're going to vomit their hand onto the field or generate a ton of mana quickly and drop a huge threat, then you can't really do that.
Maybe other people have other opinions.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
Fringe decks steal wins by attacking at angles you are not prepared for. Take 8Rack for example. Hand control strategies (discard decks) are not well represented in modern, despite being strictly superior to their mass-counterspell deck cousins.
I can take 8Rack and consistently mop the floor with any UWR deck, be it control or midrange. It's not even difficult, discard the counterspells and or few critters and UWR is left with an agonizingly slow burn deck. Discard is immune to counterspells, and without those, UWR is left woefully vulnerable.
Can you defend yourself against Discard with the proper cards? Of course. Will you devote precious deck space to do so? Of course not. This conundrum is why meta assassin decks like 8Rack can prey upon the netdecking masses.
Netdeckers all share the same weakness: predictability. The savvy meta assassin can punish those who are unable or unwilling to innovate, but still want to play MTG.
Good times.
Damn it Jim I'm a brewer, not a fortune teller. Jan Miller took 8Rack to 87th place in it's first appearance in a GP, and he was quite new to the deck. I make no claims that 8Rack is capable of winning a GP, but then again who knows. I have personally won 4 daily's with it in the last 3 weeks. The most recent win I beat UWR midrange in the final round. He was running those laughable blade splicers, and was thoroughly trounced.
Try the same thing vs melira pod, junk or jund, and lets see how that goes.
Meh. Discussing 8rack matchup vs other decks would derail this thread. I only bring it up here because the guy asked how fringe decks can threaten uwr. My point was that fringe decks attack at angles that the predictable netdecks cannot prepare for. This point is well demonstrated in the 8rack vs uwr match up.
3 Blade Splicer
3 Restoration Angel
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Electrolyze
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
4 Arid Mesa
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
3 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
This is what I have been testing with recently, and it has been successful in testing, but I am still not 100% sold on it. I've seen your discussions about Blade Splicer and I am still not sure how I feel about it. I am working on a bit of a budget currently, but I plan to have all of the fetches in the not too distant future. I appreciate any help that I get, and any lists are more than welcome. I know that UWR has a lot too offer and I am excited to see what kind of decklists you guys play and have success with. Thanks!