I don't think a chalice list is a bad idea these days, but I really don't like not having any turn 1 plays. The 4 welding jar seems totally out of place main deck, except outside of being a 0 cmc artifact to enable chalice. I would much rather just play 4 serum visions here, and accept that you will occasionally topdeck a dead card later (which is what drawing a jar would be anyway).
Ah good point, I originally had 3 Heralds + 4 Thoughtcast with 3/4 Whir main making the Jars basically a mana rock. Some should be cut if Herald is only a sideboard option.
Hey guys. Its been a while. Im on a 4 chalice build currently. Maining 3 tezz (probs soon to be 2) and the full 4 brutalities. 3/2 split of the combo, 3 bridge and 1 storage matrix. Ot feels really solid right now. All the redundant copies can be pitched to brutality and if we end up with a chalice on 2 we can cheat the combo out with whir or win with tezz. I cut back on the clunky cards such as cloister and crucible.
It essentually plays as a slower whir prison deck that uses brutality to keep us alive and can close the game quicker with tezz and combo. Postboard i can add the extra combo pieces to go infinite, or extra copies of tezz.
I dont usually find myself whirring for it that often. I mostly play it because i dont want the 4th bridge and as an additional lock piecr. Its an interesting card against aggro and midrange decks since they basically have to choose between a time warp and attacking. Against aggro its hilarious to drop this, have them untap creatures then slam a bridge, essentially cutting them off of all their resources.
I cut back on the clunky cards such as cloister and crucible.
Cloister is by far the least clunky piece of the deck, and by far one of the most important pieces. Allows you stay always stay under bridge, its card advantage, and it lets you save spells for when you need them. i think cutting it is a huge mistake.
If i have a bridge out and a whir available i find im usually wanting to start digging for the combo or grab a jar, needle, or witchbane orb.
Ill give it another try but ive found the playset of brutalities much more useful to keep me under bridge and offer added utility. Plus the 4 mana is a bit much on top of mainboard tezz
I haven't been able to manage a 5-0 recently. Part of this I think, is the meta being too open. I lost to lantern recently, as well as to wilderness teachings because of infinite turns, and another turns deck. This will get better once the meta settles, because if there's one thing this deck is good at, is packing answers to the current meta. The KCI replacement, Clock of Omens, has been performing quite nicely. Thers's only been one opportunity where I wanted to whir for it and didn't have a mana rock.
I've noticed a lot more GDS recently, which is always a tough MU. So, chalice builds could be extra nice at the moment.
Hi all.
Recently (most precise yesterday haha) i decide to put the cards together and make this my pet deck.
I read some part of thhis topic, but the archivie is too extense and a have some doubts on this.
1) Tezz is really slow and often win more in game 1. Most decks don't have outs for the Thopter/Sword combo.
2) Karn is just way way worse than Tezz for the same mana.
3) I think it's pretty unlikely for Opal to be banned. The "new KCI" didn't really put up any significant results yet and I find it very unlikely, that it has the same impact, so thinking about it doesn't really do much. It would actually not be such a huge loss for this deck, because of the relatively low artifact count compared to stuff like Affinity and Hardened Scales. Opal is very powerful, but usually not active before turn 2.
4) I don't play either. Fatal Push is completely unnecessary in a bridge deck, IMO and Battle at the Bridge is a fine SB card against hyper aggressive decks, but nothing more. I play Inquisition of Kozilek in this slot.
5) Thoughtseize. Collective Brutality is a nice SB card against Burn and Infect, but often underperforms against most other decks, IMO.
6) Thirst for Knowledge costs 3 mana and doesn't even impact the board in any way. Cards like this are unplayable in a deck like this, that often just wants to deploy a Bridge and empty the hand asap.
Tezzeret is great but game 1 all u need is the combo. And having too many 4 drops makes it hard to bridge lock. Karn is a good walker but doesn't really fit our build. He has sub optimal draw. And can't win behind a bridge. Jtms,lotv or ashiok are better choices. Mox opal is a very important piece. Don't really wanna go into why it's important it's been talked about a million times.bauble would still be good if u still want to go with a whir/bridge build push is good for the fact it is an instant but battle is better for the fact it can gain u a large amount of life I'm most situations. Deck that need an instant speed answer usually can be shut off with skite and or needle such as infect and affinity.
Yes thoughtsieze hits basically anything but CB is soo much more. It can almost win us a game against burn with just 1 all modes. It dumps sword so u don't need to cast it saving u 2 Mana. let's u get your hand down for bridge so u don't die sitting there with cards in hand. Thirst is alright but visions is just better. Turn 3 u wanna be doing more than drawing 2 cards. And as for bannings if wizards had any brains at all they would ban stirrings over opal. Opal require to make your deck worse/ have deck restrictions for it to function. Stirrings "in the decks it's ran it" basically says dig 5 deep put any card u want out of that 5 in your hand. It's essentially the second best 1 Mana draw spell of all time
Honestly, an opal ban would be good news for us. Can you imagine Stony Silence in anyone's board with no opals? But in all honesty, an opal ban is nowhere near a likelihood now that KCI is gone.
Then you say to play a G1 like an all-in combo and after side with more controlish pieces if we need?
Someone can show me the most att list? Have some list with chalice on board?
I played the Zac list this past weekend, i win most G1, but no luk on other games.
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On opal: Free mana is a mistake that the wizz itself, and we all know, and all B&R say mox and stirrings is on the target ... if the "new kci" start to make results, i believe in a preventive ban. Mox is too expansive to acquire in this enviroment for now IMO. will wait till next announcement.
If theyre banning opal then eldraxi temple needs to go too. It does the same thing with less jumping through hoops than opal.
Realistically stirrings is more powerful in artifact decks than ponder or preordain was in blue decks. Consistency will be a big issue here. If wizards truly want to stick to their principles either all 3 need a ban or ponder and preordain need to come off the list. Otherwise theyre just hypocrites at best.
Plus with the amount of artifact hate in modern i think mox is fine. Its not like SSG that can just be jammed into any red deck. Opal requires significant deckbuilding restrictions. In the same sort of way convoke could be argued as a design flaw since it pays for coloured mana. How is that any different than your creatures basically being additional lands or opals?
4) I don't play either. Fatal Push is completely unnecessary in a bridge deck
That's wrong, I can see bridge decks play Path to Exile or Lightning Bolt, so it's no different about Fatal Push. Before you get to lock the opponent down, according to the meta you expect, it can be very valuable, maybe necessary, to play some removal spells. Affinity and Infect are 2 decks that can ignore Bridge.
5) Thoughtseize. Collective Brutality is a nice SB card against Burn and Infect, but often underperforms against most other decks, IMO.
Brutality has been Bridge's best friend for years now, it's not that easy to relegate it to the SB. Along with TS, they actually don't overlap, so it seems irrelevant to oppose them in the 1st place.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
4) I don't play either. Fatal Push is completely unnecessary in a bridge deck
That's wrong, I can see bridge decks play Path to Exile or Lightning Bolt, so it's no different about Fatal Push. Before you get to lock the opponent down, according to the meta you expect, it can be very valuable, maybe necessary, to play some removal spells. Affinity and Infect are 2 decks that can ignore Bridge.
The 0 power affinity creatures usually don't kill before you have assembled some thopters. Affinity is also not very popular these days and has mostly been replaced by Hardened Scales.
In my experience it's a terrible plan to try and fight Infect with a low amount of spot removal spells, since you are mostly playing right into their protection spells. I don't even bother to board in Decays or Trophies, as I would rather not give them a use for their protection spells. Discard is a lot better in that matchup, since you can strip them of whatever they are missing without giving them a lot of ways to prevent that.
5) Thoughtseize. Collective Brutality is a nice SB card against Burn and Infect, but often underperforms against most other decks, IMO.
Brutality has been Bridge's best friend for years now, it's not that easy to relegate it to the SB. Along with TS, they actually don't overlap, so it seems irrelevant to oppose them in the 1st place.
Most lantern players don't play CB. My lists still closely resembles the lantern lists and I have tested CB a lot, when I was still playing that deck. It constantly underperformed against a wide variety of decks. It was a mainstay before the banning of Gitaxian Probe, when Infect was hugely popular, but in the current meta I don't really see the necessity to run it in the MB, especially not over IOK and Thoughtseize.
I see the argument that it can discard Swords, but so can Faithless Looting, which has completely convinced me.
All right, been having more success online recently, with a few 4-1's and a 5-0. There's just so many phoenix decks in the meta right now, which we're just really well suited to play both games one and two. I (very luckily) dropped a turn-1 damping sphere on the play in a game one, and it was like the easiest game ever.
I've been playing 2 Nahiri, the Harbinger out of the board (playing 8 rainbow lands, and a few stars at the moment). Because the sideboard has been offering better "plan B" alternatives to the thopter/sword plan, between Sai and grid and planeswalkers, and I really like having some of my anti-enchantment hate on a walker. Given that, I may try a more sultai land base and put in some Vraska, Golgari Queen to do the same role.
4) I don't play either. Fatal Push is completely unnecessary in a bridge deck
That's wrong, I can see bridge decks play Path to Exile or Lightning Bolt, so it's no different about Fatal Push. Before you get to lock the opponent down, according to the meta you expect, it can be very valuable, maybe necessary, to play some removal spells. Affinity and Infect are 2 decks that can ignore Bridge.
The 0 power affinity creatures usually don't kill before you have assembled some thopters. Affinity is also not very popular these days and has mostly been replaced by Hardened Scales.
In my experience it's a terrible plan to try and fight Infect with a low amount of spot removal spells, since you are mostly playing right into their protection spells. I don't even bother to board in Decays or Trophies, as I would rather not give them a use for their protection spells. Discard is a lot better in that matchup, since you can strip them of whatever they are missing without giving them a lot of ways to prevent that.
5) Thoughtseize. Collective Brutality is a nice SB card against Burn and Infect, but often underperforms against most other decks, IMO.
Brutality has been Bridge's best friend for years now, it's not that easy to relegate it to the SB. Along with TS, they actually don't overlap, so it seems irrelevant to oppose them in the 1st place.
Most lantern players don't play CB. My lists still closely resembles the lantern lists and I have tested CB a lot, when I was still playing that deck. It constantly underperformed against a wide variety of decks. It was a mainstay before the banning of Gitaxian Probe, when Infect was hugely popular, but in the current meta I don't really see the necessity to run it in the MB, especially not over IOK and Thoughtseize.
I see the argument that it can discard Swords, but so can Faithless Looting, which has completely convinced me.
i have to disagree with this.
Collective Brutality allows you to drop from 3 cards in hand to zero in a single turn, while netting you life with a chance of killing a creature that can get under bridge. Battle/Push are needed because sometimes you just want have the lock you want/need. Saying that your deck doesnt need them is quite naive. Since Magic is largely a game of variance you sometimes have to have those interaction cards, which is why Whir Prison runs both EE and Pyrite Spellbomb, Storm runs Abrade/Repeal, and KCI ran EE and Spine of Ish SaH.
Given that, I may try a more sultai land base and put in some Vraska, Golgari Queen to do the same role.
I rly like idea to use Vraska here. AB on a stick and can give card advantage and life in +2 and another wincon .. seens fine. Just to confirm: its goes to the side? Can give me the last list, will appreciate this.
I've always used visions and I really like it. I just got my glimmervoids so I'm trying out lootings in my hybrid thoptersword prison build. Haven't had a chance to test it yet though. Mb CB is great cause it's a catch all with great deck synergy. If u wanna run TS I'd do it sb.
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It essentually plays as a slower whir prison deck that uses brutality to keep us alive and can close the game quicker with tezz and combo. Postboard i can add the extra combo pieces to go infinite, or extra copies of tezz.
Cloister is by far the least clunky piece of the deck, and by far one of the most important pieces. Allows you stay always stay under bridge, its card advantage, and it lets you save spells for when you need them. i think cutting it is a huge mistake.
Ill give it another try but ive found the playset of brutalities much more useful to keep me under bridge and offer added utility. Plus the 4 mana is a bit much on top of mainboard tezz
I've noticed a lot more GDS recently, which is always a tough MU. So, chalice builds could be extra nice at the moment.
Recently (most precise yesterday haha) i decide to put the cards together and make this my pet deck.
I read some part of thhis topic, but the archivie is too extense and a have some doubts on this.
I'n using a basic list from Zac Elsick for now
When and why Tezzeret, agent of bolas was droped from MB?
Karn, Scion of Urza is not good in deck?
I saw a question similar as mine about Mox Opal (i have a feeling this can be banned sometime cause the new "KCI") then i dont want to invest on this for now .. then what i can play in this place ? Mind stone and talisman? and without Mox Mishra's Bauble is not too good?
About Fatal Push vs Battle at the bridge?
About Collective Brutality vs Thoughtseize? i think seize hit more things cans disrupting the deck.
and Thirst for Knowledge to find pieces?
Sry about lots of questions (maybe a little poor) but i'n just learning all pieces
2) Karn is just way way worse than Tezz for the same mana.
3) I think it's pretty unlikely for Opal to be banned. The "new KCI" didn't really put up any significant results yet and I find it very unlikely, that it has the same impact, so thinking about it doesn't really do much. It would actually not be such a huge loss for this deck, because of the relatively low artifact count compared to stuff like Affinity and Hardened Scales. Opal is very powerful, but usually not active before turn 2.
4) I don't play either. Fatal Push is completely unnecessary in a bridge deck, IMO and Battle at the Bridge is a fine SB card against hyper aggressive decks, but nothing more. I play Inquisition of Kozilek in this slot.
5) Thoughtseize. Collective Brutality is a nice SB card against Burn and Infect, but often underperforms against most other decks, IMO.
6) Thirst for Knowledge costs 3 mana and doesn't even impact the board in any way. Cards like this are unplayable in a deck like this, that often just wants to deploy a Bridge and empty the hand asap.
Pauper Cube & Artifact Pauper Cube & Multiplayer Cube
Interested in building your own Pauper Cube? Take a look at some of the lists and the following project: The "Evaluate Everything" Project (updated to M21/JMP)
Yes thoughtsieze hits basically anything but CB is soo much more. It can almost win us a game against burn with just 1 all modes. It dumps sword so u don't need to cast it saving u 2 Mana. let's u get your hand down for bridge so u don't die sitting there with cards in hand. Thirst is alright but visions is just better. Turn 3 u wanna be doing more than drawing 2 cards. And as for bannings if wizards had any brains at all they would ban stirrings over opal. Opal require to make your deck worse/ have deck restrictions for it to function. Stirrings "in the decks it's ran it" basically says dig 5 deep put any card u want out of that 5 in your hand. It's essentially the second best 1 Mana draw spell of all time
Then you say to play a G1 like an all-in combo and after side with more controlish pieces if we need?
Someone can show me the most att list? Have some list with chalice on board?
I played the Zac list this past weekend, i win most G1, but no luk on other games.
---
On opal: Free mana is a mistake that the wizz itself, and we all know, and all B&R say mox and stirrings is on the target ... if the "new kci" start to make results, i believe in a preventive ban. Mox is too expansive to acquire in this enviroment for now IMO. will wait till next announcement.
EDIT: I play only in paper
Realistically stirrings is more powerful in artifact decks than ponder or preordain was in blue decks. Consistency will be a big issue here. If wizards truly want to stick to their principles either all 3 need a ban or ponder and preordain need to come off the list. Otherwise theyre just hypocrites at best.
Plus with the amount of artifact hate in modern i think mox is fine. Its not like SSG that can just be jammed into any red deck. Opal requires significant deckbuilding restrictions. In the same sort of way convoke could be argued as a design flaw since it pays for coloured mana. How is that any different than your creatures basically being additional lands or opals?
That's wrong, I can see bridge decks play Path to Exile or Lightning Bolt, so it's no different about Fatal Push. Before you get to lock the opponent down, according to the meta you expect, it can be very valuable, maybe necessary, to play some removal spells. Affinity and Infect are 2 decks that can ignore Bridge.
Brutality has been Bridge's best friend for years now, it's not that easy to relegate it to the SB. Along with TS, they actually don't overlap, so it seems irrelevant to oppose them in the 1st place.
In my experience it's a terrible plan to try and fight Infect with a low amount of spot removal spells, since you are mostly playing right into their protection spells. I don't even bother to board in Decays or Trophies, as I would rather not give them a use for their protection spells. Discard is a lot better in that matchup, since you can strip them of whatever they are missing without giving them a lot of ways to prevent that.
Most lantern players don't play CB. My lists still closely resembles the lantern lists and I have tested CB a lot, when I was still playing that deck. It constantly underperformed against a wide variety of decks. It was a mainstay before the banning of Gitaxian Probe, when Infect was hugely popular, but in the current meta I don't really see the necessity to run it in the MB, especially not over IOK and Thoughtseize.
I see the argument that it can discard Swords, but so can Faithless Looting, which has completely convinced me.
Pauper Cube & Artifact Pauper Cube & Multiplayer Cube
Interested in building your own Pauper Cube? Take a look at some of the lists and the following project: The "Evaluate Everything" Project (updated to M21/JMP)
I've been playing 2 Nahiri, the Harbinger out of the board (playing 8 rainbow lands, and a few stars at the moment). Because the sideboard has been offering better "plan B" alternatives to the thopter/sword plan, between Sai and grid and planeswalkers, and I really like having some of my anti-enchantment hate on a walker. Given that, I may try a more sultai land base and put in some Vraska, Golgari Queen to do the same role.
i have to disagree with this.
Collective Brutality allows you to drop from 3 cards in hand to zero in a single turn, while netting you life with a chance of killing a creature that can get under bridge. Battle/Push are needed because sometimes you just want have the lock you want/need. Saying that your deck doesnt need them is quite naive. Since Magic is largely a game of variance you sometimes have to have those interaction cards, which is why Whir Prison runs both EE and Pyrite Spellbomb, Storm runs Abrade/Repeal, and KCI ran EE and Spine of Ish SaH.
But i'n a little lost with this many option: Serum, Loothing, IOK, TS, CB. haha
I rly like idea to use Vraska here. AB on a stick and can give card advantage and life in +2 and another wincon .. seens fine. Just to confirm: its goes to the side? Can give me the last list, will appreciate this.