I like the look of the list! My experience testing crucible was that it was totally win-more. We already are probably going to win game 1 when we get to the "grind" stage. The 1 ghost quarter is just going to muddy up otherwise keepable hands. Playing with a fair is totally fine, though. The lifegain can be quite nice sometimes. I'm also a little down on academy ruins. The decks that interract with our foundries are usually exiling them or tucking them into the library, like UW control, or have the ability to scavenge the graveyard away, like GB decks with the 3 scooze they typically pack.
I also like the sideboard, with Defense Grid being the only card I might keep an eye on to see how its performing. I'd make a little room for some anti-burn/aggro tech, like Battle at the Bridge, or additional Collective Brutalities, and would probably cut your additional jar.
Aye you re confirming all my doubts, my love for crucible made me blind haha! i ll switch ghost quarter with basic island and i ll keep the fair. I guess I ll also drop the rest of the package and try something else, any suggestion? (-1 crucible, -1expedition map, +2 ?).
As for the academy ruins, it felt ok in many mu, i think i ll keep it staying on 2 non-blue land. I see your argument tho.
The sideboard defence grid is totally a meta call, my local meta is super greedy with no burn at all and low aggro count, (dredge wich is easily handled and some ur wizard), so the grid helps me vs blue moon, uw control, grixis shadow, and wizards. I might go back and use 1x trophy/nature's claim anyways.
So now my only question is if you have any suggestion for the 2 mainboard slots that i m freeing dropping crucible and map! i think i ll be boring and go +1 ensnaring bridge and +1 CB. But i d like some feedback! Smile
laaaastly, many thanks to all of you, this thread is super helpful and the archetype is great!!!!!
Prison has been doing very well for itself lately but it's weak spots are against blue white control and burn our combo helps out dramatically in those matchups I believe just adding one foundry in their normal bills would help out their matchups
Well, that's kinda what I was trying! Sounds great on paper, but I fear it's a bit greedy! (i mean, I tried some game and a league with a similar setup but didn t go well) How is your testing doing? I always stepped back from engineered explosives cause we re heavy on 1 and 2 drops and it might hurt us as much as the opponent.
One big missing piece of the 4 color prison is chalice of the void, it helps a lot that strategy but can t fit ours .
In my opinion the best way to mix 4 colors prison and thopter whir isn t any far from your list, @Fullmetaltezzeret, but I fear the benefits come at a high cost in terms of consistency.
BTW the prison MU is horrible for us, have you ever experienced it? pithing needle on foundry and that's pretty much it game one!
I'm waiting till taxe returns to pick up the pieces to make that list since I only play paper and all my thopter deck is foiled so its expensive as hell lol. Yeah I thought about chalice and made my list more chalice friendly so if I did decide to add them at some point. They do some work but basically shut down looting which is essentially 8 cards in the deck which I'm not a fan of. Other than a few things I'm not too worried about 1 cmc spells. And I definitely don't want it on 2. Thopter sword stops 1 cmc creatures like Noble which is a problem for 4cc. I've found I really like EE. Thalia is a pain in the ass as is meddling mage and super fast burn creatures. So taking care of 2 or 3 goblin guides and swiftspear is really helpful, EE has sunburst so it kind of negates thalias tax so u can cast 2 on 2 then blow her up and mage hopefully if they have one out on whir or bridge. Also u can trick chalice by paying 2 of the same Mana to blow on 1 or 2&1 to blow on 2 if they have it set ect. I've also just dropped it on zero to help whir. It's a tool. I've found it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
I want to buy into this deck in paper.. I would like to play the no Chalice version, but wanted to ask if Mox Opal is really necessary as I don't own any
I want to buy into this deck in paper.. I would like to play the no Chalice version, but wanted to ask if Mox Opal is really necessary as I don't own any
Mox opal helps our consistency in casting spells and fixes our otherwise greedy color needs, I fear in this version it's suggested in at least 2x, but speaking for myself. You could try a version more oriented in pw like agent of bolas, with pentad prism and some mana rock ( talisman of domincance , mindstone ) maybe with some discard spells in backup, but you re going toward the old tezzerator version, not this thopter whir!
@Fullmetaltezzerator guess i ll give EE a chance and see how it performs, i knew its tricks but yet found it could have been a double edged weapon. and you can t whir for it anyways i ll test before speaking again haha
The sideboard defence grid is totally a meta call, my local meta is super greedy with no burn at all and low aggro count, (dredge wich is easily handled and some ur wizard), so the grid helps me vs blue moon, uw control, grixis shadow, and wizards. I might go back and use 1x trophy/nature's claim anyways.
So now my only question is if you have any suggestion for the 2 mainboard slots that i m freeing dropping crucible and map! i think i ll be boring and go +1 ensnaring bridge and +1 CB. But i d like some feedback! Smile
laaaastly, many thanks to all of you, this thread is super helpful and the archetype is great!!!!!
My experience with Defense Grid is that it sounds really good in theory, as a anti-control sideboard card, but in reality is often very underwhelming. I've found usually games go long enough that decks can just counterspell you while paying the grid cost anyway. I've since cut it from my boards for that reason.
I think dropping crucible and map for ensnaring bridge and brutality is entirely reasonable
Metallic rebuke seems to continually make it into my builds. U: mana leak is definitely a card that would have a place in modem if it existed. One of the downsides is that our prison package tends to make games go into the 6+ land territory. The ability to gq lock someone with a crucible feels interesting in that context. I also tend to pitch lands with faithless looting a lot so maybe that's the shape of an optimal crucible build. The other question I have is whether tectonic edge is better. Tron is up to 4 basics these days and many other decks are in the 3+ territory in response to field of ruin. UW and GB are playing as many as 7 to fuel their own field of ruins.
Well, that's kinda what I was trying! Sounds great on paper, but I fear it's a bit greedy! (i mean, I tried some game and a league with a similar setup but didn t go well) How is your testing doing? I always stepped back from engineered explosives cause we re heavy on 1 and 2 drops and it might hurt us as much as the opponent.
One big missing piece of the 4 color prison is chalice of the void, it helps a lot that strategy but can t fit ours .
In my opinion the best way to mix 4 colors prison and thopter whir isn t any far from your list, @Fullmetaltezzeret, but I fear the benefits come at a high cost in terms of consistency.
BTW the prison MU is horrible for us, have you ever experienced it? pithing needle on foundry and that's pretty much it game one!
Just wanted to drop in and say that I've been liking Clock of Omens as my infinite engine recently. It requires a mana rock in play (in addition to thopter sword), so the list I played with included some citadels and mind stones in addition to the opals. Clock is definitely closer to KCI in terms of speed to infinite, and it has even more utility as a stand-alone than either KCI or sieve, because it doubles as an expensive mana rock occasionally. Whether or not the down-side is too great, requiring a rock in play to infinite, is still up in the air for me, so I'll let people know with continued testing.
First time posting here, so please forgive the lack of formatting. Also, it's late, I'm tired, and unable to sleep, so sorry for any typos/rants
I've spent the last couple years playing Prison decks, and the entirety of 2018 playing exclusively Whir of Invention builds of every variety. I played Thopter Sword, Thopter Sword in a lantern shell, actual lantern, UR Prison when Michael Coyle (sussurrus_mtg) originally started spiking every event he participated in, jumped on Grixis before the rest of the crew, and then played 4c Whir. I've been talking with DustyCrumbs almost all year long about the evaluations of cards, builds, and trying to make the best deck to fit my play style.
I 100% believe that, while sharing multiple core cards, all these decks are vastly different and operate on completely different axis than each other. I also believe that blending two lists together will makes the deck weaker than the parent decks. For instance, playing copies of Thopter/Sword combo in 4c Whir makes the deck less effective of the absolute lock the deck is strives for. On the other hand, playing too many lock pieces (ie. The crucible lock, t.west chains) in ThopterSword weakens in by not having the main focus be the combo.
This being said, I'm trying to find the EXACT line of where too many prison aspects make the Thopter Sword deck too dilluted. It's a combo deck first and foremost. This is my current list:
Artifact (30)
4x Mishra's bauble
3x chalice of the void
4x Mox opal
2x welding jar
1x Tormod's crypt
1x engineered explosives
1x gravedigger's cage
2x Sorcerous spyglass
1x damping sphere
2x sword of the meek
3x thopter foundry
1x time sieve
3x ensnaring bridge
1x bottled cloister
1x witchbane orb
Spells(10)
3x collective brutality
3x Battle at the bridge
4x whir of invention
Lands (20)
4x glimmervoid
4x spire of industry
4x darkslick shores
3x botanical sanctum
3x island
1x watery grave (probably should be river of tears)
1x Academy Ruins
1x Inventors fair
Sideboard
1x Chalice of the void
1x sun Droplet
1x Torpor orb
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Spellskite
2x abrupt decay
1x Ghirapur aether grid
1x Liliana of the Veil
3x Unmoored Ego
2x tezzeret agent of bolas
1. While this strays from the combo farther than I'd like it too, I think Chalice is just too good in the meta right now, at the cost of not having the consistency cantrips provide. When chalice falls out of favor again, they'd be replaced with serum visions.
2. Witchbane Orb in the mainboard, is probably an unnecessary inclusion and once again strays from the combo a bit. I like to have the option available, as I like having a well rounded toolbox.
3. I'm not entirely sold on EE in the list, but it's a nice catch all. I'm constantly switching back and forth on its inclusion over the 4th Foundry.
4. I'm running all the rainbow lands because Blood Moon is at such a low, and avoiding the fetch/shock manabase allows me to control my life loss a bit more. Also, running the full set of both rainbow lands and opals allows me to have access to Aether Grid.
5. I think Aether Grid is probably the most important sideboard card to have access to. It cleanly answers creatures/planeswalkers, and provides a quick win through Rest in Peace/Leyline of the Void/Stony Silence.
6. I'm hype on battle at the bridge. I find it's often the "soft lock" that puts you too far outside of the range that decks can reasonably deal with.
7. This deck needs an "Oops I win" button, and while I'm not sure Time Sieve is the best card for the slot, it's the easiest to work with.
8. I'm not big on Sai, Master Thopterist as I feel the post-sideboard 60 are filled with too many Colored spells.
9. Unmoored Ego is -fine- not good, not bad. It's just another catch all.
10. Sun Droplet us a bit excessive with Battles, fair, and the combo, but I don't own a 2nd Liliana of the Veil so it is what it is. Literally just tossed in another card.
11. Defense Grid is a trap. Seems good in theory but in practice always seems to miss it's mark.
Let me know what you think. Any and all feedback is appreciated. Let me know if you have any ideas to help find the line between combo/prison or if I'm completely off base.
Cool, welcome aboard. Your analysis of the combo to prison aspect seems accurate and well thought out. I would offer this core as the "minimum" prison cards we hope to play:
These 3 cards provide answers, or large-enough roadblocks, to Tron, Storm, Creature Combo, Amulet Titan, Phoenix varieties, and tribal aggro. They do not help against burn, or scapeshift. I always start with those 3 cards, and then go from there. Graveyard hate is nice, but bridge and thopter/foundry answer whatever graveyard strategies are doing for the most part. Burn is tough, because I've never felt that Witchbane Orb is fast enough. But burn is answered nicely by Collective Brutality and Battle at the Bridge. And scapeshift is always a coinflip as to who is going to race to infinite first, and then Unmoored Ego can help a lot out of the board.
As for your list, I would recommend going down 1 bridge, 1 witchbane orb, 1 explosives, and 1 cage, and filling those slots with +1 foundry (always, always play 4 foundry), and then some combination of brutality and battle. There's a lot of red aggro decks running around, and having those spells main deck has been quite nice.
I'm actually running a 3 of both Collective Brutality and Battle at the Bridge in the main. What would you recommend to fill the 3 slots you mentioned that are not The 4th foundry?
Didn't notice their inclusion, my bad. In that case I would move up to 4 swords and add something to filter your deck, so either a search for azcanta or a middle the mixture.
I have played bug tezzerator for a while I struggled with the deck at the beginning but knowing the format really helps you whir for the right silver bullet at the right time. I also play pyro prison and I've noticed that wotc doesnt like the blood moon effect so by printing field of ruin and assasins trophy has subconsciously made people play more basics which is bad for blood moon but also bad for trying to lock people out with GQ and crucibal so now I'm on tec edge there are alot of decks that if you can keep them at 3 lands they just cant win the game. I've been playing tezzerator at my fnm lately but I just put together whir prison to try this weekend my main deck is pretty close to stock but my SB has natures claims and Krosan grips to fight the hate rather than run the tezzeret and sai who seem to just get killed right away. I think that UW control is probably my worst matchup because of all the counters and land destruction
Perhaps even moving the Heralds to the Main (Chalice protects them) in lieu of bridge/whir. Chalice seems really strong right now and I've yet to find the right home for Herald. This kinda combines the two.
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Aye you re confirming all my doubts, my love for crucible made me blind haha! i ll switch ghost quarter with basic island and i ll keep the fair. I guess I ll also drop the rest of the package and try something else, any suggestion? (-1 crucible, -1expedition map, +2 ?).
As for the academy ruins, it felt ok in many mu, i think i ll keep it staying on 2 non-blue land. I see your argument tho.
The sideboard defence grid is totally a meta call, my local meta is super greedy with no burn at all and low aggro count, (dredge wich is easily handled and some ur wizard), so the grid helps me vs blue moon, uw control, grixis shadow, and wizards. I might go back and use 1x trophy/nature's claim anyways.
So now my only question is if you have any suggestion for the 2 mainboard slots that i m freeing dropping crucible and map! i think i ll be boring and go +1 ensnaring bridge and +1 CB. But i d like some feedback! Smile
laaaastly, many thanks to all of you, this thread is super helpful and the archetype is great!!!!!
I too combined 4 color prison and our combo. Waiting for taxes so I can get the what I need to make it.
Well, that's kinda what I was trying! Sounds great on paper, but I fear it's a bit greedy! (i mean, I tried some game and a league with a similar setup but didn t go well) How is your testing doing? I always stepped back from engineered explosives cause we re heavy on 1 and 2 drops and it might hurt us as much as the opponent.
One big missing piece of the 4 color prison is chalice of the void, it helps a lot that strategy but can t fit ours .
In my opinion the best way to mix 4 colors prison and thopter whir isn t any far from your list, @Fullmetaltezzeret, but I fear the benefits come at a high cost in terms of consistency.
BTW the prison MU is horrible for us, have you ever experienced it? pithing needle on foundry and that's pretty much it game one!
Mox opal helps our consistency in casting spells and fixes our otherwise greedy color needs, I fear in this version it's suggested in at least 2x, but speaking for myself. You could try a version more oriented in pw like agent of bolas, with pentad prism and some mana rock ( talisman of domincance , mindstone ) maybe with some discard spells in backup, but you re going toward the old tezzerator version, not this thopter whir!
@Fullmetaltezzerator guess i ll give EE a chance and see how it performs, i knew its tricks but yet found it could have been a double edged weapon. and you can t whir for it anyways i ll test before speaking again haha
My experience with Defense Grid is that it sounds really good in theory, as a anti-control sideboard card, but in reality is often very underwhelming. I've found usually games go long enough that decks can just counterspell you while paying the grid cost anyway. I've since cut it from my boards for that reason.
I think dropping crucible and map for ensnaring bridge and brutality is entirely reasonable
I made pw list up awhile BK.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/decks/8667-dimir-artifact-walkers
I've spent the last couple years playing Prison decks, and the entirety of 2018 playing exclusively Whir of Invention builds of every variety. I played Thopter Sword, Thopter Sword in a lantern shell, actual lantern, UR Prison when Michael Coyle (sussurrus_mtg) originally started spiking every event he participated in, jumped on Grixis before the rest of the crew, and then played 4c Whir. I've been talking with DustyCrumbs almost all year long about the evaluations of cards, builds, and trying to make the best deck to fit my play style.
I 100% believe that, while sharing multiple core cards, all these decks are vastly different and operate on completely different axis than each other. I also believe that blending two lists together will makes the deck weaker than the parent decks. For instance, playing copies of Thopter/Sword combo in 4c Whir makes the deck less effective of the absolute lock the deck is strives for. On the other hand, playing too many lock pieces (ie. The crucible lock, t.west chains) in ThopterSword weakens in by not having the main focus be the combo.
This being said, I'm trying to find the EXACT line of where too many prison aspects make the Thopter Sword deck too dilluted. It's a combo deck first and foremost. This is my current list:
Artifact (30)
4x Mishra's bauble
3x chalice of the void
4x Mox opal
2x welding jar
1x Tormod's crypt
1x engineered explosives
1x gravedigger's cage
2x Sorcerous spyglass
1x damping sphere
2x sword of the meek
3x thopter foundry
1x time sieve
3x ensnaring bridge
1x bottled cloister
1x witchbane orb
Spells(10)
3x collective brutality
3x Battle at the bridge
4x whir of invention
Lands (20)
4x glimmervoid
4x spire of industry
4x darkslick shores
3x botanical sanctum
3x island
1x watery grave (probably should be river of tears)
1x Academy Ruins
1x Inventors fair
Sideboard
1x Chalice of the void
1x sun Droplet
1x Torpor orb
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Spellskite
2x abrupt decay
1x Ghirapur aether grid
1x Liliana of the Veil
3x Unmoored Ego
2x tezzeret agent of bolas
1. While this strays from the combo farther than I'd like it too, I think Chalice is just too good in the meta right now, at the cost of not having the consistency cantrips provide. When chalice falls out of favor again, they'd be replaced with serum visions.
2. Witchbane Orb in the mainboard, is probably an unnecessary inclusion and once again strays from the combo a bit. I like to have the option available, as I like having a well rounded toolbox.
3. I'm not entirely sold on EE in the list, but it's a nice catch all. I'm constantly switching back and forth on its inclusion over the 4th Foundry.
4. I'm running all the rainbow lands because Blood Moon is at such a low, and avoiding the fetch/shock manabase allows me to control my life loss a bit more. Also, running the full set of both rainbow lands and opals allows me to have access to Aether Grid.
5. I think Aether Grid is probably the most important sideboard card to have access to. It cleanly answers creatures/planeswalkers, and provides a quick win through Rest in Peace/Leyline of the Void/Stony Silence.
6. I'm hype on battle at the bridge. I find it's often the "soft lock" that puts you too far outside of the range that decks can reasonably deal with.
7. This deck needs an "Oops I win" button, and while I'm not sure Time Sieve is the best card for the slot, it's the easiest to work with.
8. I'm not big on Sai, Master Thopterist as I feel the post-sideboard 60 are filled with too many Colored spells.
9. Unmoored Ego is -fine- not good, not bad. It's just another catch all.
10. Sun Droplet us a bit excessive with Battles, fair, and the combo, but I don't own a 2nd Liliana of the Veil so it is what it is. Literally just tossed in another card.
11. Defense Grid is a trap. Seems good in theory but in practice always seems to miss it's mark.
Let me know what you think. Any and all feedback is appreciated. Let me know if you have any ideas to help find the line between combo/prison or if I'm completely off base.
1 Damping Sphere
1 Pithing Needle (or in your case spyglass)
1 Ensnaring Bridge
These 3 cards provide answers, or large-enough roadblocks, to Tron, Storm, Creature Combo, Amulet Titan, Phoenix varieties, and tribal aggro. They do not help against burn, or scapeshift. I always start with those 3 cards, and then go from there. Graveyard hate is nice, but bridge and thopter/foundry answer whatever graveyard strategies are doing for the most part. Burn is tough, because I've never felt that Witchbane Orb is fast enough. But burn is answered nicely by Collective Brutality and Battle at the Bridge. And scapeshift is always a coinflip as to who is going to race to infinite first, and then Unmoored Ego can help a lot out of the board.
As for your list, I would recommend going down 1 bridge, 1 witchbane orb, 1 explosives, and 1 cage, and filling those slots with +1 foundry (always, always play 4 foundry), and then some combination of brutality and battle. There's a lot of red aggro decks running around, and having those spells main deck has been quite nice.
3 Sword of the Meek
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Welding Jar
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sorcerous spyglass
4 Mind Stone
1 Damping Sphere
1 Witchbane Orb
3 Whir of Invention
3 Herald of Anguish
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Ghirapur Aether Grid
4 Unmoored Ego
4 Battle at the Bridge
Perhaps even moving the Heralds to the Main (Chalice protects them) in lieu of bridge/whir. Chalice seems really strong right now and I've yet to find the right home for Herald. This kinda combines the two.