in my experience getting kci out is faster and easier to do than time sieve. Once it’s out it puts your opponent in a distinct position of having to find a specific out. Technically time sieve wins the game when you go infinite with it and you don’t need to worry about decking with it.
Having five mana producing permanents soon enough is fantastically difficult now, and it seems like the format is only getting faster. I was stuck so many times stressfully trying to “surf” a time sieve with 3 or 4 mana producers sacing my other artifacts to take more turns to hit the required lands - and you fail a lot. KCI you say “infinite life infinite thopters” which you can do eot with whir which catches even a lot of players with wrath ot EE by surprise.
For example, I run only Cloister and KCI at my 4 spot with 21 lands, 3 mox, and 3 brutalities main.
Not running Tezz? We don't like your kind round these parts
In all seriousness though, I really appreciate the feedback everyone. KCI feels like the right choice based on speed. However, it's pretty close so my decision is by no means the ultimately correct one. It's hard not to want to win with some flair and Time Sieve is certainly the more flashy win but sometimes Spikes gotta Spike.
I believe this is close to 100% incorrect. Creature aggro decks can't interact with infinite life, and KCI combo is assembled faster than Time Sieve combo. I'm not sure what else to say here.
I'd say I have an obvious path to the normal Thopter Sword combo in something like 50% of games. Another 40% I'm cracking baubles/cantrips for another piece and sitting behind a Bridge + interaction to survive. In maybe 10% of games do I have the Combo + Whir/Sieve/KCI. So the claim that it's a turn faster on average feels a bit embellished. It's a turn faster in those 10% of perfect hands. I could see Cloister + KCI being the optimal G1 setup (I was on 2 Tezz MB in a control heavy meta). I'll reserve my opinion until after a dozen or so matches with those as my 4 drops.
I'm also still playing 2 Peek/2 Metallic Rebuke/2 Push/1 Murderous Cut so it's a bit less all in and looking to interact at instant speed where relevant which somewhat conflicts with Cloister.
I got to try out cloister and kci and it felt great. Also ran into someone in Atlanta running board the weatherlight with Urborg, Orboro, Minamo, Academy Ruins, and Inventor's Fair + typical thopter shell. Seems decent, he made day 2 (6-2 or better). He was also heavy on EE which very few of us have embraced. I'll keep an eye out for how he does tomorrow.
I took some note.
R1- RG eldrazi 1-2 I stabilize game 1 with some thopter while he try to reality smash me but i end up time sieve to win. game 2: he lay 2 reality smasher by turn 4 and then start to thought knot etc, i lose pretty quick. he also play a bloodbraid elf. game3: I inquisition his hand to see 2 matter reshaper, and my i didnt drew anything worth. started to make some thopter by turn 5 but it was really too late. Sided : assassin's trophy + abrupt decay + unmoored ego , took out: 2 nihil spellbomb + sorcerous spyglass.
R2 - Elf GW 0-2 got reckt both game on turn 3. he had insane draw while i drew 0 discard. didnt side in my damping sphere it was a huge mistake.
R3- got the bye!
R4- Mardu pyro 2-0 (phoenix version) Both game where really close on falling into his favor, but i quickly swarmed the board with artifact into whir making me able to find ensnaring bridge to which he had no answer main deck ( K-command are sideboard now that people play morphose for the phoenix ) Also, spellbomb were really good in that matchup. sided in - needle + decay + trophy + surgical. sided out - 2 bauble, 1 sword 1 foundry.
R5 - Human 2-0 ( tension was high since the winner would most likely go into top 8 ) i go mox , land, nihil spellbomb. t2 pentad for 2, into pentad for 2 into sword. so my board is now massive and i got my 3 blue for next turn. Whir into the foundry and block all day. until he conceded. Game 2 - turn 1 welding jar, into whir for a bridge, then drew my tezzeret like champs. then played until tezz -4 was winning. took some time since he had 2 auriok champion on the table. Sided in decay + trophy + sai + unmoored ego + ghirapur aether grid. Took out classic, 1 bauble + 1 sword + 1 foundry +2 spellbomb.
I was the 8th player! yeah so
R6 - Storm 2-0 I didnt knew it was storm. but i kept a hand with some disruption and 1 spellbomb. stabilize the game super long. until i get a karn out and kill him with thopter in the air. i had 1 whir and 1 tezz in hand but the game was pretty solid for me so i had no reason to show him more card. Sided in damping sphere, surgical, decay. took out - 1 sword, 2 foundry, 1 sorcerous spygalss. Game 2: i keep a hand of 2 inquisiton, 1 collective brutality, 1 spellbomb, 1 mox, 1 pentad, 1 spire of industry. It was insane agaisnt him. also i threw my second land right there on turn 1. thing took some time to take off, but inventually i exiled his graveyard drew a card, then whir for a bridge to stop the token from attacking, then whir into grafdigger cage. he had like 9 land, 0 card in end.
R7 - Tron 0-2. I had a solid hand that could create thopter by turn 4, even had a tezz. but no inquisition, i knew he was playing tron i should have gone harder. but i figured if he slow played a bit i could have a ton of thopter enough to go for me but he did a turn 4 ( he was on the play ) eldrazi that exile a land. then eldrazi that exile 2 permanent. i scooped there. Sided in : unmoored ego, damping sphere, trophy, decay, surgical. Game 2 i had 1 lander and nothing to play with. so mulligan into a solid 6 card. Karn + 2 land + pentad prism + whir + bridge. But my opps had the nut. thought knot my bridge then karn my land. etc, i was too slow and not enough effective.
Thinking of removing from the side : Witchbane orb and damping sphere.
and main deck removing 1 nihil spellbomb ( since now i play the cage ) to make damping sphere main deck.
Hey, thanks Madmartig0n! I just got another 5-0 this morning, going 10-0 in games, beating Dredge, Mono-red Phoenix, Tron, Blue Moon, and Amulet Titan. The first two matches were over almost immediately thanks to all my main-deck graveyard hate. The Tron matchup was a picture-perfect illustration of why KCI is better for us than Time Sieve, even against tron. Game one, I was on the play with a mana-light hand containing some low cmc artifacts and thopter/sword. A decent hand, but not good against tron. Turn 3 I drew a whir and realized I was just a mana source away from being able to whir for 4 on his end-step and go off (he was slowed down thanks to a needle on expedition map). If I'd been playing sieve, I would have been a long way off from going infinite. The amulet titan game was basically won on the back of damping sphere slowing him down enough to combo off game one, and a whir for damping sphere to catch him unable to pay for a summoner's pact trigger, which he honestly should have played around and probably won that game.
Here's my list, for reference. I'm playing 5 main-deck graveyard hosers, and it honestly doesn't feel like overkill in this meta.
The 1 CMC hosers have been really good, and they kind of occupy opposite ends of the spectrum. Most aggro these days is graveyard based, so it's almost like having proactive removal, in the matchups you really need it, in 1-drop artifact form. On the other end, needle helps buy time against tron and further frustrate UW control game-1. Now if burn were to replace all the graveyard based aggro, I'd rethink this configuration, but these days I really like the 1-drop slots. I may even sub out the last star for a third needle. Needle and spellbomb are really only so-so against jund and the midrange stuff, and terrible against humans, but those matchups are won on the back of avoiding their respective discard and assembling thopter/sword anyway.
Muddle the mixture has been solid. Never great, never terrible. It's nice to have redundancy, even if it's slow, and occasionally countering a scapeshift or cryptic is sweet. The best thing about muddle is that it grabs abrupt decay and golgari charm out of the board, which means I can feel free to run minimal copies of our stony/leyline hate, and the line of transmuting for a decay is completely counterspell safe. Sai has replaced Padeem in the board, and it's obvious why he's just better. Much less of a glass cannon, provides immediate blockers, and can work through stony and rip. Lastly, battle at the bridge is awesome, but I do get completely and utterly wrecked by Gaddock Teeg, so maybe subbing one out of the board for another brutality is wise. I played against the zoo list that 5-0 recently, and got thoroughly wrecked thanks to Magus of the Moon, Gaddock Teeg, Eidolon, and Knight of Autumn. That deck is ridiculously good against us, and I hope it doesn't catch on!
@Goblinmatron - Tips against tron? Moving the damping sphere to the main deck will help. Other than just trying to race to infinite thopters, there's not much to be done. I like Unmoored Ego, but NOT to hit tron lands (unless they mulligan a bit), because unless you have a clear path to infinite, they will just play 7-8 lands and get there. So I like to take O-Stone, which makes having a decent number of thopters an actually hard-to-deal-with problem for them outside of their 1-of Ugin.
Wow great list, im sad to see no Walker tho, since they did so much for me so far. will try it when i get a 4th mox. Sai was my discovery last time, it soo good agaisnt deck that sideboard out creature removal.
I try to like your serum vision approach but I still see the discard one as more interactive with your opps. will definitly need to try.
Hey quick question, why you don't run any mana ramp artifact? like pentad prism or the talisman. It seem it could help whir or go infinite quicker no?
@thenobodys How has running only 1 bridge been for you? You're not playing much other removal, so this seems kinda scarily all in on thopter foundry living long enough to make a bunch of thopters.
I know there's been a lot of discussion on KCI here, but it always just seems like win more to me - how often do you think it was necessary to close out the game?
Honestly, bridge is only really relevant in tribal matchups. Outside of humans, spirits, merfolk, and elves, bridge is only ever just OK. The aggro decks that use the graveyard, ie Phoenix decks and dredge, can typically just burn you out, as does burn of course. Bridge is still a good roadblock, however, so I like it as a 1-of. Powering out thopter sword is the gameplan, and it wins most creature matchups, I've found. And having an insta-win combo is extremely relevant in Modern. It's how you beat big mana and combo, and can be the difference between winning and losing vs fast aggro and burn.
@goblinmatron - I do play mana rocks to help with whir. It's just that they exile my opponents yards and shut down planeswalkers instead of helping to cast cards other than whir. =]
So I've been reading this thread and playing this deck for about 18 months, trying things and working things out over time. I took the deck to GP Atlanta last weekend, and managed to day 2 at 6-2, finishing with a 9-5-1 record, missing a pro point due to the draw in round 15 (more on that later). The deck I ran is different from what is 'accepted' on here lately, but I would defend it pretty heavily:
So just a brief discussion of my choices before I give you guys a tournament report. The main difference between your decks are twofold: one, I believe white to be stronger than green due to the nature of Board the Weatherlight. I feel like a lot of people viewed it was an ancient stirrings for artifacts, but I built my deck to be focused around that card. Being able to find Oboro, Urborg, Inventor's fair, all the artifacts, and all the planeswalkers and sideboard cards is critical. It is basically stirrings, but can do some serious work that stirrings can't via finding thopter foundry itself and Tezz when you're ready to win.
The second main difference is the need for a combo finish in the deck. I do think there is a place for KCI/Time Sieve, but I also feel like we can win most of the games that the combo finish ends anyway, and the combo cards (though only 1 ofs) are dead draws so much of the time. I could be convinced to bring it in, but I am skeptical as to its overall utility in 90% of matchups.
Round 1: Bye
(Easiest 1-0 of my life)
Round 2: Humans (2-1)
(2-0 Tournament)
G1: He eventually scoops to whirred bridge game 1, as they have no outs. He was just hoping to see more of my deck, and I eventually had to show him thopter foundry for the concession.
Sideboard: OUT Spellbomb, Cage, Spyglass, Damping Sphere
IN Battle at the Bridge, Liliana, Sai, Torpor orb
G2: He slams hierarch into champion+Thalia and the mana tax is too much to deal with the fast start.
G3: Probably my favorite game of the day. I have bridge in hand to start the game, but he names it off of meddle mage. I am able to empty my hand with a torpor orb, engineered explosives X2, and am sitting on just the bridge in hand. I whir for bridge off the top, he images meddling mage on thopter foundry, but my torpor orb prevents him from doing anything meaningful other than swinging at me with 2 1/1 champions of the parish. Eventually, I draw the foundry, leaving me with 2 cards in hand and lethal on the board. I crack explosives in response to combat, welding jar my torpor orb, and play out my cards to end his chances next turn. He shows me two knight of autumn in his hand. Torpor orb is a house.
Round 3: UW Control (1-2)
(2-1 Tournament)
G1: We play our stuff out, I manage to whir in response to his Teferi land untap trigger to complete the combo and beat him to death through two terminus.
Sideboard: OUT 2x Bridge, Explosives, Sphere, Fatal push x2, Battle at the bridge
IN Padeem, Sai, Needle, Wear/tear x2, Tezz, Liliana
G2: We both stumble pretty heavily on lands, but he recovers before I do and is sitting on me the rest of the game. He counters my two wear/tears on stony silence that would have gotten me back into the game, I scoop with no meaningful answers.
G3: Stony on 2 prevents my pentad prism from ramping me into the turn 3 Tezz and I stop drawing threats after he counters two Tezz and two Whirs. Jace ultimates and I let it happen because I’m a nice person and most people scoop before you get the satisfaction of exiling their library.
Round 4: Infect (2-0)
(3-1 Tournament)
G1: Turn 2 he hits me for 5 infect, then starts to glistener beat down 1 at a time. I brutality and he has to save it with blossoming defense, I take lethal from his hand and see another blossoming defense with me at 7 counters. I have one turn, no cards in hand, and topdeck whir for bridge and end the game. Needle on his inkmoth saves me from a quick death and buys me the time for the topdeck.
Sideboard: OUT Cage, Spyglass, Sphere
IN Spellskite, Battle at the Bridge, Liliana
G2: He spends time trying to hate me out instead of win the game, and welding jar+spellskite+bridge are too much to fight through for him to do much. I win on 6 infect, never really having felt threatened. Brutality is a literal game winner in this matchup so often. Force pump spells as defense, take further pump spells, kill creatures…
Round 5: Amulet Titan (2-0)
(4-1 Tournament)
G1: I get down sphere early, lock his prime times behind a bridge, and beat him down with the combo. He doesn’t have the hive mind version, thankfully.
Sideboard: OUT Spellbomb, Spyglass, Needle, Cage
IN: Torpor Orb, Damping sphere, wear/tear, spellskite – This matchup feels bad, but I was kind of unsure how to really sideboard it. I’m down for feedback here.
G2: 40 minute game. We trade explosives, I jar a dozen times with academy ruins, he tries to kill me with plant tokens and land activations, but he can’t make the mana he needs through sphere. Eventually I find the combo and he scoops with 1 minute on the clock.
Round 6: Burn (2-1)
(5-1 Tournament)
G1: Thopter Foundry is active on turn 4. It gets a little dicey, but I manage to lifegain out of range of his topdecks as his goblin guides and eidolon stare at my thopters.
Sideboard: OUT Spellbomb, Spyglass, Needle, Cage
IN Spellskite, Battle at the Bridge, wear/tear x2
If you haven’t noticed, I hate burn and am almost presideboarded against them. Even so…
G2: He backs up rest in peace with an aggressive start that eventually gets there. I don’t remember much other than it wasn’t a hugely long game.
G3: Despite rest in peace I sacrifice artifacts for value and kill him with 4 1/1’s that he can’t deal with through 2x brutality and 2x battle at the bridge.
Round 7: Runaway Red (2-1)
(6-1 Tournament)
This deck is fricken terrifying.
G1: He develops a bit more slowly than normal starts for the deck, and I am able to get thopter sword online. I think, 4 thopters a turn, gaining life over 20, this guy is going to scoop, right? Well, FIVE TURNS LATER, he has bedlam reveler and two swiftspears on the field, and he slams reveler into draw three into manamorphose into bolt into bolt into lava spike into THREE Arclight phoenixes coming back. I am at 26 life, and have to make 3 thopters and block and STILL fall to single digits. I swing with the team for exact lethal next turn with my heart beating far too fast.
Sideboard: OUT: Needle, Spyglass, Explosives, 1x Board the Weatherlight
IN: Padeem, Sphere, Spellskite, Battle at the bridge
G2: I have cage out, slowly work through about a dozen turns keeping him off anything meaningful, and we end up in a topdeck war. Four turns later he draws reveler and it is too much to overcome with no meaningful topdecks.
G3: So… I boarded out all my needle effects. I figured, worst thing that happens is he has a grim lavamancer, right? Homeboy plays a shrine of burning rage on turn 2. My stomach drops farther than I can manage. I have a spellskite and a damping sphere out, which keeps me from dying for three turns while he looks for an answer to spellskite and ticks up his shrine of burning rage. I am at 16, and he ticks shrine up to 14. I find the combo just as he deals with Spellskite (he has to flame jab it and bolt it). I make enough thopters for lethal, so he has to make his move. Luckily for me, due to flame jabbing over and over again, he only has 3 lands and is struggling to cast much through damping sphere. He gets shrine of burning rage up to 21 with lava spike, but I survive and kill him at 4 life.
Round 8: Humans (1-2)
(6-2 Tournament)
G1: I have the depressing drop in my stomach as he casts turn 3 Thalia, heretic cathar. I have whir in hand, 1 mana short of slamming bridge and locking the game up, and my land is spire of industry. I topdeck needle (of course, not 0 mana but 1) and have to scoop what is normally a favorable game 1.
Sideboard: OUT Spellbomb, Cage, Spyglass, Damping Sphere
IN Battle at the Bridge, Liliana, Sai, Torpor orb
G2: I explosives x1 on turn 3 to take out two champions and 2 hierarchs, leaving him with two freebooters and nothing else. I get the combo out and block/attack through everything he has. Pretty straightforward.
G3: I make my first real serious mistake of the tournament (at least MAJOR mistake) and keep a hand of 3 lands, 2 whir, pentad prism, and Tezz. He plays champion into Thalia, I draw SECOND Tezz. I can’t play due to the mana tax, he freebooters away my pentad prism. I draw board the weatherlight, and he just beats me down while I’m looking for removal or anything meaningful. I should have mulliganed that hand more aggressively. I DO defend the decision in that he mulliganed to 6 and I knew that pentad prism into whir into tezz is a fantastic start, but I needed removal or lower drops.
Day 2
Round 9: Humans (1-2)
(6-3 Tournament)
G1: I have thopter sword active turn 4 with 3 mana available on the play. I DIE ANYWAY. Turn 1 champion, turn 2 champion hierarch, turn 3 lieutenant x2, turn 4 mantis rider. He killed me so fast gaining 3 life and blocking 3 didn’t even remotely save me.
Sideboard: OUT Spellbomb, Cage, Spyglass, Damping Sphere
IN Battle at the Bridge, Liliana, Sai, Torpor orb
G2: Similar. I just don’t manage to do anything meaningful before he slaughters me. It might have been turn 5 that time. He just drew the fantastic unbeatable draws.
Round 10: Burn (1-2)
(6-4 Tournament)
G1: I hate burn. I beat the hell out of him with maindeck brutality into thopter sword.
Sideboard: OUT Spellbomb, Spyglass, Needle, Cage
IN Spellskite, Battle at the Bridge, wear/tear x2
G2: He plays rest in peace, tries to revelry my foundry and I sac my board to foundry anyway. Gain 3 life, make 3 attackers, try to go on the aggressive and hope to topdeck. I go through land, opal, land, he goes goblin guide, goblin guide, eidolon, and that overpowers me.
G3: The most egregious error I made the entire tournament. I had a board of spellskite, sword of the meek, and opal, with 3 islands, inventor’s fair, and academy ruins. I had battle at the bridge and thopter foundry in hand. I am feeling like this is a foregone conclusion. He plays rest in peace, so I stop and ponder. I decide I will battle at the bridge his eidolon x4 instead of play thopter foundry to save myself some life, thinking I can always run it out next turn. What does he draw? Path. He paths spellskite. I think, okay. I draw: fatal push. Collective brutality. Battle at the bridge. How many artifacts do I have? 2. I died to BURN with foundry and those three cards in my hand. I wasn’t in danger of dying, so I should have run out the foundry to keep my artifact count high enough and give myself the ability to sacrifice artifacts in response to removal to gain life and blank burn spells. Having an inactive opal literally cost me the game.
Round 11: Naya Zoo (2-0)
(Tournament 7-4)
G1: He leads on narnam renegade, I respond with explosives x1. The explosives completely blanks the TWO vexing devils he has in his hand, and thopter sword gets there.
Sideboard: OUT Spellbomb, Needle, Cage, Spyglass
IN Spellskite, Battle at the Bridge, Sai, Sphere
G2: He plays rest in peace and stony silence on turns 2 and 3. He is struggling to find threats, and I play tezz on turn 5 and make bauble a 5/5, then darksteel citadel a 5/5, then kill him over two turns. Feels good when zoo starts chump blocking.
Round 12: Tron (2-1)
(Tournament 8-4)
G1: Turn 3 Karn, turn 4 Ulamog. I scoop with 0 permanents. We all hate Tron here.
Sideboard: OUT Push x2, spellbomb, explosives, cage, battle
IN Needle, Sphere, Spellskite, Wear/tear x2, Liliana
G2: I get sphere out pretty quickly, but he nature’s claims it turn 5 and plays Ugin. I play Tezz, -1 on sword of the meek, and start beating up his Ugin. He kills Tezz. I play Liliana and beat up on Ugin again. He all is dusts Liliana (strange choice tbh). I kill his Ugin. I get him down to 10 as he spins his wheels over and over again. Finally, he draws a wurmcoil. I sacrifice the 5/5 sword and make 6 thopters, hit him to 4, he hits me to go back to 10, and I swing for 13 in the air to end the game.
G3: Redundant sphere, spyglass on Ostone, and once again my trusty sword of the meek grows legs and beats to Tron player into submission.
Round 13: Jund (0-2)
(Tournament 8-5. Rough way to lose out on cashing)
G1: It’s Jadine. I am faced with the roughest feeling in the world when I attempt to cast bridge, and she responds with kcommand blowing up SOMETHING ELSE. She falls to 7 from bob triggers and I have an outside shot, but she has push for my 5/5 thopter that would have knocked her to 2 and given me a bob trigger chance.
G2: I don’t get to play magic. She picks my hand apart, plays artifact removal, and I draw land 4/5 turns in a row.
Round 14: Burn (2-0)
(Tournament 9-5)
G1: He does burn things, I do thopter sword things, mine work better.
Sideboard: OUT Spellbomb, Spyglass, Needle, Cage
IN Spellskite, Battle at the Bridge, wear/tear x2
G2: He doesn’t know that rest in peace shuts down thopter foundry. He seems confused by the matchup in general, and mutters about how it’s impossible. I hope for that to one day be true.
Round 15: Jeskai Control (1-1-1)
(Tournament 9-5-1)
G1: He mulls to 5, I keep a sketchy hand that is fantastic with another land, but don’t see the land until turn 5. It still takes him 30 minutes to suck enough hope out of me for me to concede.
Sideboard: OUT 2x Bridge, Explosives, Sphere, Fatal push x2, Battle at the bridge
IN Padeem, Sai, Needle, Wear/tear x2, Tezz, Liliana
G2: I needle Teferi and Jace, get to thopter sword, and kill him in about 10 minutes.
G3: The game starts with 8 minutes to play. It is back and forth, and eventually I am almost surprised when the judge shows up to call time. The board state is as follows: I have 3 thopters, active tezzeret, agent of bolas, needle on hallowed fountain, and he is at 18 as I start to hit him with thopters. Turn 1 he plays Teferi on Tezz. I board the weatherlight to find Tezz, but I am wary of him having a counter. I needle Teferi. I attack in, he drops to 15. I play Tezz second main. It resolves. Oops. I decide to plus to have the option of ultimating next turn. He plays opt and passes. Its turn 4, and I don’t draw the one artifact I need to ult Tezz and kill him, and he shows me a hand of Jace, terminus (the needle on hallowed fountain kept him on 5 lands) and surgical. With 1 more turn, homeboy was dead. I had to -1 on a thopter and swing him to 8, but then turns ends. He knows he lost, but refuses to concede.
Overall, the deck felt great. One more piece of tech for the board the weatherlight version I am playing: I am going to put a Boseiju in my side as a legendary target that will allow me to jam whir of invention right into the face of dispels and cryptics. Anyway that was long, but I figured someone on this thread would care enough to read it. If not, it was good to rehash for myself anyway! Keep fighting the good fight, brothers and sisters.
That’s really a cool list. It feels like a more rugged version of the midrange concept that’s been floating around here. Bravo and nice brewing, keep posting your list as it evovles!
First, nice job in the tourney, Smagoo, and a great report and deck explanation!
Some points on matchups and sideboard:
-To answer your amulet titan question, needle is one of the better cards against them. Needling engineered explosives is huge, even when you run your own. Your explosives are typically only good in the early game to hit amulets and tribe scouts, so needling explosives is an easy decision. Also, needling Tolaria West shuts down a lot of their flexibility. Needle, in general, is almost never a dead card - I actually keep it in vs burn, mostly because it's a 1-drop artifact, but also because burn brings in lavamancers usually, and shrines are always a possibility like you noticed against runaway red.
-Your first loss to humans in game 3, in my eyes, kind of shows why pentad prism is a bad card for us. Does it allow for turn-3 whir into bridge? Sure, but a turn 4 whir for bridge is probably also winning vs a non-nuts start vs humans. Because Prism iss 2 cmc, your mana rock becomes backbreakingly slow in the face of a Thalia, and gets stripped to boot (pun intended). If your pentad prisms were instead 1-drops (star, spellbomb or needle), you could have had the line of whirring turn 3 into darksteel citadel, which would have helped land a Tezz or another whir. And if you turned those pentad prisms into needle and spellbomb, suddenly you have 2 open slots (main and SB) for more battles at the bridge to crush those foul aggro decks! EDIT: just realized you're running only 19 lands. Turn those prisms into at least 1 more land, especially without serum visions.
-Board the Weatherlight. I know you're sold on the card, but Serum Visions does a similar job for cheaper. I know Board can be good, I've tested it, and I totally get if you want to run with it. I'm only saying give Serum Visions a chance because it's better early game vs late, which is more critical in my eyes in today's modern. Remember, serum visions grabs your removal, which can make all the difference early game. Maybe a 2-2 or 1-3 Serum/Board split?
-You hate burn, and so I feel I should tell you that you can SB better against them. This is what I would recommend given your list:
IN: Skite, Battle, 2x Wear/Tear, Sai, Lili (only on the play)
OUT: 2x Tezz, 2x Ensnaring Bridge, Spyglass, Damping Sphere
What you have to take into account against burn is that they are super fast and consistent, and also that they run out of steam. So bridge and Tezz are only going to do something against them if you've already won the game. On the other hand, useless 1-drop artifacts like cage and spellbomb act as mana rocks for whir AND battle and sac outlets for thopter foundry, and they also come down before Eidolon can resolve. So even though cage does literally nothing against them in terms of what the card does, I would always rather see one in my opener than a bridge. Turn 1 Cage, Turn 2 Foundry, Turn 3 sac cage and cast Board trying to grab sword is not a bad line.
-And you were right about your misplay against burn. Having a thopter foundry out with open mana and artifacts to sac is usually always the best thing, because you frustrate their decision making. I always only run foundry out post-board while holding open mana, for this reason. Turning destructive revelery into a card that reads: "RG: destroy target foundry, your opponent gains 1 life and puts a thopter into play" can be backbreaking in terms of tempo for a burn player. They only have so much mana each turn, so unless they're using it efficiently, they're not executing their game plan as they would like.
-General sideboard considerations. Put in a Phyrexian Revoker. Having a needle with legs can be huge, for instance, whirring for one in response to Teferi or Karn. And in burn matchups, a revoker can trade with an eidolon. Also, it hits KCI. I also might find room for one Detention Sphere, maybe over the second damping sphere.
So I haven't had time to really test a build I like that could accommodate 3+ unmoored ego yet, but I'm considering playing it at regionals this weekend. I cut down to 2x Tez again in my 75 (both in the board), moved my 2nd Nihil spell to the main, and now have an open slot. I'm keeping the 2x decay because I still like it more than both pulse and trophy, even if it can't snag leyline of the void, so I cut the single pulse for a 2nd open slot. Should I cut the single Herald of Anguish for the 3rd open slot to make room for these 3x Unmoored Ego? I figured I want herald against the same matchups I want ego (combo/control), but is it truly worth running? Or should I stick with the 4th GY hate piece (2nd cage), Herald, and an open slot (needs to overlap with UWx control so considering another needle effect, Azcanta which was amazing in the past, or Ashiok/3rd Tez).
Not sure if Needle #2 from the board should be Revoker or not, leaning on needle for curve considerations. I'm keeping my 3x pushes in the main (I've been testing Battle and I don't care for it enough to replace push's tempo versatility), and I think I'm sticking with Time Sieve over KCI (I tried it a limited amount of time, and I actually got locked out by Thalia and Gaddock Teeg when Time Sieve could have won both games).
Also, while Leyline of the Void is annoying, I compiled a list of all the major archetypes that play it and the percentages of them having it vs not, and after reviewing the list I came to realize that many of those decks just fold to the Bridge plan anyway (plan b that ignores GY synergy). So if you prison lock them out of combat, you have all the time in the world to find Tez and ult. It's true that pulse can kill walkers and stuff, but it's often subpar against tron (they already got value off the walker you killed plus they could have any number of other haymakers the following turn), and somewhat hard to resolve against control (again, why I still like decay over trophy by a small margin).
So I haven't had time to really test a build I like that could accommodate 3+ unmoored ego yet, but I'm considering playing it at regionals this weekend. I cut down to 2x Tez again in my 75 (both in the board), moved my 2nd Nihil spell to the main, and now have an open slot. I'm keeping the 2x decay because I still like it more than both pulse and trophy, even if it can't snag leyline of the void, so I cut the single pulse for a 2nd open slot. Should I cut the single Herald of Anguish for the 3rd open slot to make room for these 3x Unmoored Ego? I figured I want herald against the same matchups I want ego (combo/control), but is it truly worth running? Or should I stick with the 4th GY hate piece (2nd cage), Herald, and an open slot (needs to overlap with UWx control so considering another needle effect, Azcanta which was amazing in the past, or Ashiok/3rd Tez).
Not sure if Needle #2 from the board should be Revoker or not, leaning on needle for curve considerations. I'm keeping my 3x pushes in the main (I've been testing Battle and I don't care for it enough to replace push's tempo versatility), and I think I'm sticking with Time Sieve over KCI (I tried it a limited amount of time, and I actually got locked out by Thalia and Gaddock Teeg when Time Sieve could have won both games).
Also, while Leyline of the Void is annoying, I compiled a list of all the major archetypes that play it and the percentages of them having it vs not, and after reviewing the list I came to realize that many of those decks just fold to the Bridge plan anyway (plan b that ignores GY synergy). So if you prison lock them out of combat, you have all the time in the world to find Tez and ult. It's true that pulse can kill walkers and stuff, but it's often subpar against tron (they already got value off the walker you killed plus they could have any number of other haymakers the following turn), and somewhat hard to resolve against control (again, why I still like decay over trophy by a small margin).
Let me know what you guys think!
I think your worst cards and what should be swapped are 2x Thoughtseize, it's just not high enough impact IMO and has overlap with Ego. Speaking of which Ego has been great in my experience thusfar although I'll admit I'm still learning the best lines with it in various matchups. Herald is great when it works out, is a blow out when they keep removal in, and sometimes gets stuck in my hand since I find myself boarding out more do-nothing artifacts in postboard matches these days. I think Herald has more potential than we've investigated but we need to alter the deck slightly for him. He's probably best in multiples (3-4) in a grixis shell paired with aether grid and ignoring Stony/RIP
Sai needs to be a 2x in everyone’s SB. If he goes unchecked in g2 or 3 the game ends instantly. The herald is not worth the energy now that Sai’s printed IMHO
Yeah I've found similar instances to be true about Herald. I recently went back to trying 2x but realized just as you said, the matchups where I want him don't have a proper supporting 60-card config that helps consistently set him up. The first one is often good enough and just fading a single end step trigger without them using a removal spell is already an even trade. However they can tend to get clogged up in your hand, I just like the ability to set up turns with hand disruption + Herald to close the door, which can be easier to do than with Tez.
Although I really try to avoid most 1-for-1 type effects in this deck, I think cheap spot removal is still necessary due to the high density of 2-mana spells in our deck (fills in the gaps to buy time), and Thoughtsieze plays a similar role when the pushes aren't good. While I certainly don't care for IOK/Thoughtsieze maindeck, they do help set up certain lines during the turning points against Combo/Control where you can double spell and disrupt/turn the corner with an impactful spell (again, hand disruption + Herald is a fantastic line). I don't want to overload on these spells, as Collective Brutality is probably the best for this deck of all the hand disruption spells (due to Bridge synergies), but i still feel like Thoughtseize is a necessary evil against certain popular matchups.
However, do you think they should instead be additional threats like Azcanta/Walkers? I don't think I like them more than other utility lock pieces. Due to the nature of my testing/reverse engineering of the list I've settled on, I'd need these slots to overlap with the matchups they're specifically intended for and I don't necessarily like the idea of playing into their counterspell turns by bringing in more 1-turn spells that cost 4+. I'd rather pressure their mana by playing multiple cheap, efficient spells in the same turn instead of increasing typical clunky midrange lines that blue control mages live to see.
I haven't been sold on Sai like the Whir/Prison and KCI decks have incorporated, seeing that we run a much lower density of artifacts (they run upwards of 40-42+ artifacts, we run closer to 26-30). Post board, when he'd come in, we're also probably simultaneously cutting our artifact density even lower. Also, while he might be better than Herald against blue decks, I'm not convinced he's a faster clock than the demon vs combo. Being able to clock while also simultaneously taxing the hand they're trying to set up is so backbreaking. Herald just overlaps with 2x archetypes that I want to beat up on, whereas Grixis whir and KCI don't care as much about that since the former locks better (Chalice) and the latter can combo faster (KCI).
He might be better than I'm giving him credit for though, but I don't think this is a slot I'm willing to blindly sleeve up ahead of this weekend. I'll probably see how it goes in the following weeks though and adjust accordingly to optimize his triggers postboard.
What are other people's thoughts on Ego/Thoughtseize/etc? Half of the reason I like Ego post board is because Thoughtseize/Brutality can set up lines that ensure the first Ego or two could resolve, which sounds harder to do without the setup leading to a potential turn 3-4 Ego.
Also just wanted to mention that I'm open to hearing everyone's opinion on these topics! I like to play devil's advocate a bit to see how convincing one side or the other is when determining which direction to go with a lot of these flex slots. Thanks in advance everyone!
Sai needs to be a 2x in everyone’s SB. If he goes unchecked in g2 or 3 the game ends instantly. The herald is not worth the energy now that Sai’s printed IMHO
Really? I've found Sai to consistently be very underwhelming. Every time I've cast him so far he's been mediocre to bad. I've never had him be anywhere close to game ending. Like he's great out of KCI's board, but they play a lot more artifacts than we do, and more ways to chain their artifacts into drawing and casting more artifacts. I find I generally don't just have spare artifacts to sac to draw cards very often when I play him. By the time you include stuff like Serum Visions, Collective Brutality, Whir, Battle at the bridge, maybe Tezz, sideboarded non-artifacts, we've just got fewer. To be fair, I could definitely be overboarding some of the time I bring him in, which further reduces the artifact count, but that's definitely not always been the issue
Every time I cast Sai, he so often sits there for several turns not making any thopters while I draw Abrupt Decay, Whir, land, land, Serum Visions, etc. So far I think every time I put Sai into my sideboard, I consistently regret it and wish it was almost anything else.
I've never really been a fan of Herald either. My experience is people almost always leave a bunch of removal in, either because they are unfamiliar with the matchup, or they are expecting sideboard Sai/Padeem/Something.
Having five mana producing permanents soon enough is fantastically difficult now, and it seems like the format is only getting faster. I was stuck so many times stressfully trying to “surf” a time sieve with 3 or 4 mana producers sacing my other artifacts to take more turns to hit the required lands - and you fail a lot. KCI you say “infinite life infinite thopters” which you can do eot with whir which catches even a lot of players with wrath ot EE by surprise.
It’s KCI for me and not even close.
Not running Tezz? We don't like your kind round these parts
In all seriousness though, I really appreciate the feedback everyone. KCI feels like the right choice based on speed. However, it's pretty close so my decision is by no means the ultimately correct one. It's hard not to want to win with some flair and Time Sieve is certainly the more flashy win but sometimes Spikes gotta Spike.
I'd say I have an obvious path to the normal Thopter Sword combo in something like 50% of games. Another 40% I'm cracking baubles/cantrips for another piece and sitting behind a Bridge + interaction to survive. In maybe 10% of games do I have the Combo + Whir/Sieve/KCI. So the claim that it's a turn faster on average feels a bit embellished. It's a turn faster in those 10% of perfect hands. I could see Cloister + KCI being the optimal G1 setup (I was on 2 Tezz MB in a control heavy meta). I'll reserve my opinion until after a dozen or so matches with those as my 4 drops.
I'm also still playing 2 Peek/2 Metallic Rebuke/2 Push/1 Murderous Cut so it's a bit less all in and looking to interact at instant speed where relevant which somewhat conflicts with Cloister.
Oh, true, once you make the first Thopter, you can sac it for KCI to generate 2 more mana and go on from there, I didn't realise that
For the fnm i dont recall much but my lost was tron.
and the tournament I did today I switched some cards around so here a new decklist: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1442876#paper
I took some note.
R1- RG eldrazi 1-2 I stabilize game 1 with some thopter while he try to reality smash me but i end up time sieve to win. game 2: he lay 2 reality smasher by turn 4 and then start to thought knot etc, i lose pretty quick. he also play a bloodbraid elf. game3: I inquisition his hand to see 2 matter reshaper, and my i didnt drew anything worth. started to make some thopter by turn 5 but it was really too late. Sided : assassin's trophy + abrupt decay + unmoored ego , took out: 2 nihil spellbomb + sorcerous spyglass.
R2 - Elf GW 0-2 got reckt both game on turn 3. he had insane draw while i drew 0 discard. didnt side in my damping sphere it was a huge mistake.
R3- got the bye!
R4- Mardu pyro 2-0 (phoenix version) Both game where really close on falling into his favor, but i quickly swarmed the board with artifact into whir making me able to find ensnaring bridge to which he had no answer main deck ( K-command are sideboard now that people play morphose for the phoenix ) Also, spellbomb were really good in that matchup. sided in - needle + decay + trophy + surgical. sided out - 2 bauble, 1 sword 1 foundry.
R5 - Human 2-0 ( tension was high since the winner would most likely go into top 8 ) i go mox , land, nihil spellbomb. t2 pentad for 2, into pentad for 2 into sword. so my board is now massive and i got my 3 blue for next turn. Whir into the foundry and block all day. until he conceded. Game 2 - turn 1 welding jar, into whir for a bridge, then drew my tezzeret like champs. then played until tezz -4 was winning. took some time since he had 2 auriok champion on the table. Sided in decay + trophy + sai + unmoored ego + ghirapur aether grid. Took out classic, 1 bauble + 1 sword + 1 foundry +2 spellbomb.
I was the 8th player! yeah so
R6 - Storm 2-0 I didnt knew it was storm. but i kept a hand with some disruption and 1 spellbomb. stabilize the game super long. until i get a karn out and kill him with thopter in the air. i had 1 whir and 1 tezz in hand but the game was pretty solid for me so i had no reason to show him more card. Sided in damping sphere, surgical, decay. took out - 1 sword, 2 foundry, 1 sorcerous spygalss. Game 2: i keep a hand of 2 inquisiton, 1 collective brutality, 1 spellbomb, 1 mox, 1 pentad, 1 spire of industry. It was insane agaisnt him. also i threw my second land right there on turn 1. thing took some time to take off, but inventually i exiled his graveyard drew a card, then whir for a bridge to stop the token from attacking, then whir into grafdigger cage. he had like 9 land, 0 card in end.
R7 - Tron 0-2. I had a solid hand that could create thopter by turn 4, even had a tezz. but no inquisition, i knew he was playing tron i should have gone harder. but i figured if he slow played a bit i could have a ton of thopter enough to go for me but he did a turn 4 ( he was on the play ) eldrazi that exile a land. then eldrazi that exile 2 permanent. i scooped there. Sided in : unmoored ego, damping sphere, trophy, decay, surgical. Game 2 i had 1 lander and nothing to play with. so mulligan into a solid 6 card. Karn + 2 land + pentad prism + whir + bridge. But my opps had the nut. thought knot my bridge then karn my land. etc, i was too slow and not enough effective.
Thinking of removing from the side : Witchbane orb and damping sphere.
and main deck removing 1 nihil spellbomb ( since now i play the cage ) to make damping sphere main deck.
Any other tips for agaisn't tron ?
U/B Faeries
U/B Tezzerator
Here's my list, for reference. I'm playing 5 main-deck graveyard hosers, and it honestly doesn't feel like overkill in this meta.
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Welding Jar
4 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Chromatic Star
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Sword of the Meek
1 Damping Sphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Krark-Clan Ironworks
4 Serum Visions
1 Collective Brutality
2 Muddle the Mixture
4 Whir of Invention
1 Battle at the Bridge
Land: 20
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
4 Spire of Industry
1 Glimmervoid
4 Island
1 Swamp
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sai, Master Thopterist
3 Unmoored Ego
1 Etched Champion
3 Battle at the Bridge
The 1 CMC hosers have been really good, and they kind of occupy opposite ends of the spectrum. Most aggro these days is graveyard based, so it's almost like having proactive removal, in the matchups you really need it, in 1-drop artifact form. On the other end, needle helps buy time against tron and further frustrate UW control game-1. Now if burn were to replace all the graveyard based aggro, I'd rethink this configuration, but these days I really like the 1-drop slots. I may even sub out the last star for a third needle. Needle and spellbomb are really only so-so against jund and the midrange stuff, and terrible against humans, but those matchups are won on the back of avoiding their respective discard and assembling thopter/sword anyway.
Muddle the mixture has been solid. Never great, never terrible. It's nice to have redundancy, even if it's slow, and occasionally countering a scapeshift or cryptic is sweet. The best thing about muddle is that it grabs abrupt decay and golgari charm out of the board, which means I can feel free to run minimal copies of our stony/leyline hate, and the line of transmuting for a decay is completely counterspell safe. Sai has replaced Padeem in the board, and it's obvious why he's just better. Much less of a glass cannon, provides immediate blockers, and can work through stony and rip. Lastly, battle at the bridge is awesome, but I do get completely and utterly wrecked by Gaddock Teeg, so maybe subbing one out of the board for another brutality is wise. I played against the zoo list that 5-0 recently, and got thoroughly wrecked thanks to Magus of the Moon, Gaddock Teeg, Eidolon, and Knight of Autumn. That deck is ridiculously good against us, and I hope it doesn't catch on!
@Goblinmatron - Tips against tron? Moving the damping sphere to the main deck will help. Other than just trying to race to infinite thopters, there's not much to be done. I like Unmoored Ego, but NOT to hit tron lands (unless they mulligan a bit), because unless you have a clear path to infinite, they will just play 7-8 lands and get there. So I like to take O-Stone, which makes having a decent number of thopters an actually hard-to-deal-with problem for them outside of their 1-of Ugin.
I try to like your serum vision approach but I still see the discard one as more interactive with your opps. will definitly need to try.
Hey quick question, why you don't run any mana ramp artifact? like pentad prism or the talisman. It seem it could help whir or go infinite quicker no?
I know there's been a lot of discussion on KCI here, but it always just seems like win more to me - how often do you think it was necessary to close out the game?
@goblinmatron - I do play mana rocks to help with whir. It's just that they exile my opponents yards and shut down planeswalkers instead of helping to cast cards other than whir. =]
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Spire of Industry
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Watery Grave
3 Island
Artifact
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Welding Jar
2 Pentad Prism
3 Mishra's Bauble
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mox Opal
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Damping Sphere
4 Whir of Invention
2 Fatal Push
Sorcery
3 Collective Brutality
1 Battle at the Bridge
4 Board the Weatherlight
Planeswalker
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Sai, Master Thopterist
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Torpor Orb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Damping Sphere
1 Spellskite
2 Wear // Tear
1 Battle at the Bridge
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Liliana of the Veil
So just a brief discussion of my choices before I give you guys a tournament report. The main difference between your decks are twofold: one, I believe white to be stronger than green due to the nature of Board the Weatherlight. I feel like a lot of people viewed it was an ancient stirrings for artifacts, but I built my deck to be focused around that card. Being able to find Oboro, Urborg, Inventor's fair, all the artifacts, and all the planeswalkers and sideboard cards is critical. It is basically stirrings, but can do some serious work that stirrings can't via finding thopter foundry itself and Tezz when you're ready to win.
The second main difference is the need for a combo finish in the deck. I do think there is a place for KCI/Time Sieve, but I also feel like we can win most of the games that the combo finish ends anyway, and the combo cards (though only 1 ofs) are dead draws so much of the time. I could be convinced to bring it in, but I am skeptical as to its overall utility in 90% of matchups.
Round 1: Bye
(Easiest 1-0 of my life)
Round 2: Humans (2-1)
(2-0 Tournament)
G1: He eventually scoops to whirred bridge game 1, as they have no outs. He was just hoping to see more of my deck, and I eventually had to show him thopter foundry for the concession.
Sideboard: OUT Spellbomb, Cage, Spyglass, Damping Sphere
IN Battle at the Bridge, Liliana, Sai, Torpor orb
G2: He slams hierarch into champion+Thalia and the mana tax is too much to deal with the fast start.
G3: Probably my favorite game of the day. I have bridge in hand to start the game, but he names it off of meddle mage. I am able to empty my hand with a torpor orb, engineered explosives X2, and am sitting on just the bridge in hand. I whir for bridge off the top, he images meddling mage on thopter foundry, but my torpor orb prevents him from doing anything meaningful other than swinging at me with 2 1/1 champions of the parish. Eventually, I draw the foundry, leaving me with 2 cards in hand and lethal on the board. I crack explosives in response to combat, welding jar my torpor orb, and play out my cards to end his chances next turn. He shows me two knight of autumn in his hand. Torpor orb is a house.
Round 3: UW Control (1-2)
(2-1 Tournament)
G1: We play our stuff out, I manage to whir in response to his Teferi land untap trigger to complete the combo and beat him to death through two terminus.
Sideboard: OUT 2x Bridge, Explosives, Sphere, Fatal push x2, Battle at the bridge
IN Padeem, Sai, Needle, Wear/tear x2, Tezz, Liliana
G2: We both stumble pretty heavily on lands, but he recovers before I do and is sitting on me the rest of the game. He counters my two wear/tears on stony silence that would have gotten me back into the game, I scoop with no meaningful answers.
G3: Stony on 2 prevents my pentad prism from ramping me into the turn 3 Tezz and I stop drawing threats after he counters two Tezz and two Whirs. Jace ultimates and I let it happen because I’m a nice person and most people scoop before you get the satisfaction of exiling their library.
Round 4: Infect (2-0)
(3-1 Tournament)
G1: Turn 2 he hits me for 5 infect, then starts to glistener beat down 1 at a time. I brutality and he has to save it with blossoming defense, I take lethal from his hand and see another blossoming defense with me at 7 counters. I have one turn, no cards in hand, and topdeck whir for bridge and end the game. Needle on his inkmoth saves me from a quick death and buys me the time for the topdeck.
Sideboard: OUT Cage, Spyglass, Sphere
IN Spellskite, Battle at the Bridge, Liliana
G2: He spends time trying to hate me out instead of win the game, and welding jar+spellskite+bridge are too much to fight through for him to do much. I win on 6 infect, never really having felt threatened. Brutality is a literal game winner in this matchup so often. Force pump spells as defense, take further pump spells, kill creatures…
Round 5: Amulet Titan (2-0)
(4-1 Tournament)
G1: I get down sphere early, lock his prime times behind a bridge, and beat him down with the combo. He doesn’t have the hive mind version, thankfully.
Sideboard: OUT Spellbomb, Spyglass, Needle, Cage
IN: Torpor Orb, Damping sphere, wear/tear, spellskite – This matchup feels bad, but I was kind of unsure how to really sideboard it. I’m down for feedback here.
G2: 40 minute game. We trade explosives, I jar a dozen times with academy ruins, he tries to kill me with plant tokens and land activations, but he can’t make the mana he needs through sphere. Eventually I find the combo and he scoops with 1 minute on the clock.
Round 6: Burn (2-1)
(5-1 Tournament)
G1: Thopter Foundry is active on turn 4. It gets a little dicey, but I manage to lifegain out of range of his topdecks as his goblin guides and eidolon stare at my thopters.
Sideboard: OUT Spellbomb, Spyglass, Needle, Cage
IN Spellskite, Battle at the Bridge, wear/tear x2
If you haven’t noticed, I hate burn and am almost presideboarded against them. Even so…
G2: He backs up rest in peace with an aggressive start that eventually gets there. I don’t remember much other than it wasn’t a hugely long game.
G3: Despite rest in peace I sacrifice artifacts for value and kill him with 4 1/1’s that he can’t deal with through 2x brutality and 2x battle at the bridge.
Round 7: Runaway Red (2-1)
(6-1 Tournament)
This deck is fricken terrifying.
G1: He develops a bit more slowly than normal starts for the deck, and I am able to get thopter sword online. I think, 4 thopters a turn, gaining life over 20, this guy is going to scoop, right? Well, FIVE TURNS LATER, he has bedlam reveler and two swiftspears on the field, and he slams reveler into draw three into manamorphose into bolt into bolt into lava spike into THREE Arclight phoenixes coming back. I am at 26 life, and have to make 3 thopters and block and STILL fall to single digits. I swing with the team for exact lethal next turn with my heart beating far too fast.
Sideboard: OUT: Needle, Spyglass, Explosives, 1x Board the Weatherlight
IN: Padeem, Sphere, Spellskite, Battle at the bridge
G2: I have cage out, slowly work through about a dozen turns keeping him off anything meaningful, and we end up in a topdeck war. Four turns later he draws reveler and it is too much to overcome with no meaningful topdecks.
G3: So… I boarded out all my needle effects. I figured, worst thing that happens is he has a grim lavamancer, right? Homeboy plays a shrine of burning rage on turn 2. My stomach drops farther than I can manage. I have a spellskite and a damping sphere out, which keeps me from dying for three turns while he looks for an answer to spellskite and ticks up his shrine of burning rage. I am at 16, and he ticks shrine up to 14. I find the combo just as he deals with Spellskite (he has to flame jab it and bolt it). I make enough thopters for lethal, so he has to make his move. Luckily for me, due to flame jabbing over and over again, he only has 3 lands and is struggling to cast much through damping sphere. He gets shrine of burning rage up to 21 with lava spike, but I survive and kill him at 4 life.
Round 8: Humans (1-2)
(6-2 Tournament)
G1: I have the depressing drop in my stomach as he casts turn 3 Thalia, heretic cathar. I have whir in hand, 1 mana short of slamming bridge and locking the game up, and my land is spire of industry. I topdeck needle (of course, not 0 mana but 1) and have to scoop what is normally a favorable game 1.
Sideboard: OUT Spellbomb, Cage, Spyglass, Damping Sphere
IN Battle at the Bridge, Liliana, Sai, Torpor orb
G2: I explosives x1 on turn 3 to take out two champions and 2 hierarchs, leaving him with two freebooters and nothing else. I get the combo out and block/attack through everything he has. Pretty straightforward.
G3: I make my first real serious mistake of the tournament (at least MAJOR mistake) and keep a hand of 3 lands, 2 whir, pentad prism, and Tezz. He plays champion into Thalia, I draw SECOND Tezz. I can’t play due to the mana tax, he freebooters away my pentad prism. I draw board the weatherlight, and he just beats me down while I’m looking for removal or anything meaningful. I should have mulliganed that hand more aggressively. I DO defend the decision in that he mulliganed to 6 and I knew that pentad prism into whir into tezz is a fantastic start, but I needed removal or lower drops.
Day 2
Round 9: Humans (1-2)
(6-3 Tournament)
G1: I have thopter sword active turn 4 with 3 mana available on the play. I DIE ANYWAY. Turn 1 champion, turn 2 champion hierarch, turn 3 lieutenant x2, turn 4 mantis rider. He killed me so fast gaining 3 life and blocking 3 didn’t even remotely save me.
Sideboard: OUT Spellbomb, Cage, Spyglass, Damping Sphere
IN Battle at the Bridge, Liliana, Sai, Torpor orb
G2: Similar. I just don’t manage to do anything meaningful before he slaughters me. It might have been turn 5 that time. He just drew the fantastic unbeatable draws.
Round 10: Burn (1-2)
(6-4 Tournament)
G1: I hate burn. I beat the hell out of him with maindeck brutality into thopter sword.
Sideboard: OUT Spellbomb, Spyglass, Needle, Cage
IN Spellskite, Battle at the Bridge, wear/tear x2
G2: He plays rest in peace, tries to revelry my foundry and I sac my board to foundry anyway. Gain 3 life, make 3 attackers, try to go on the aggressive and hope to topdeck. I go through land, opal, land, he goes goblin guide, goblin guide, eidolon, and that overpowers me.
G3: The most egregious error I made the entire tournament. I had a board of spellskite, sword of the meek, and opal, with 3 islands, inventor’s fair, and academy ruins. I had battle at the bridge and thopter foundry in hand. I am feeling like this is a foregone conclusion. He plays rest in peace, so I stop and ponder. I decide I will battle at the bridge his eidolon x4 instead of play thopter foundry to save myself some life, thinking I can always run it out next turn. What does he draw? Path. He paths spellskite. I think, okay. I draw: fatal push. Collective brutality. Battle at the bridge. How many artifacts do I have? 2. I died to BURN with foundry and those three cards in my hand. I wasn’t in danger of dying, so I should have run out the foundry to keep my artifact count high enough and give myself the ability to sacrifice artifacts in response to removal to gain life and blank burn spells. Having an inactive opal literally cost me the game.
Round 11: Naya Zoo (2-0)
(Tournament 7-4)
G1: He leads on narnam renegade, I respond with explosives x1. The explosives completely blanks the TWO vexing devils he has in his hand, and thopter sword gets there.
Sideboard: OUT Spellbomb, Needle, Cage, Spyglass
IN Spellskite, Battle at the Bridge, Sai, Sphere
G2: He plays rest in peace and stony silence on turns 2 and 3. He is struggling to find threats, and I play tezz on turn 5 and make bauble a 5/5, then darksteel citadel a 5/5, then kill him over two turns. Feels good when zoo starts chump blocking.
Round 12: Tron (2-1)
(Tournament 8-4)
G1: Turn 3 Karn, turn 4 Ulamog. I scoop with 0 permanents. We all hate Tron here.
Sideboard: OUT Push x2, spellbomb, explosives, cage, battle
IN Needle, Sphere, Spellskite, Wear/tear x2, Liliana
G2: I get sphere out pretty quickly, but he nature’s claims it turn 5 and plays Ugin. I play Tezz, -1 on sword of the meek, and start beating up his Ugin. He kills Tezz. I play Liliana and beat up on Ugin again. He all is dusts Liliana (strange choice tbh). I kill his Ugin. I get him down to 10 as he spins his wheels over and over again. Finally, he draws a wurmcoil. I sacrifice the 5/5 sword and make 6 thopters, hit him to 4, he hits me to go back to 10, and I swing for 13 in the air to end the game.
G3: Redundant sphere, spyglass on Ostone, and once again my trusty sword of the meek grows legs and beats to Tron player into submission.
Round 13: Jund (0-2)
(Tournament 8-5. Rough way to lose out on cashing)
G1: It’s Jadine. I am faced with the roughest feeling in the world when I attempt to cast bridge, and she responds with kcommand blowing up SOMETHING ELSE. She falls to 7 from bob triggers and I have an outside shot, but she has push for my 5/5 thopter that would have knocked her to 2 and given me a bob trigger chance.
G2: I don’t get to play magic. She picks my hand apart, plays artifact removal, and I draw land 4/5 turns in a row.
Round 14: Burn (2-0)
(Tournament 9-5)
G1: He does burn things, I do thopter sword things, mine work better.
Sideboard: OUT Spellbomb, Spyglass, Needle, Cage
IN Spellskite, Battle at the Bridge, wear/tear x2
G2: He doesn’t know that rest in peace shuts down thopter foundry. He seems confused by the matchup in general, and mutters about how it’s impossible. I hope for that to one day be true.
Round 15: Jeskai Control (1-1-1)
(Tournament 9-5-1)
G1: He mulls to 5, I keep a sketchy hand that is fantastic with another land, but don’t see the land until turn 5. It still takes him 30 minutes to suck enough hope out of me for me to concede.
Sideboard: OUT 2x Bridge, Explosives, Sphere, Fatal push x2, Battle at the bridge
IN Padeem, Sai, Needle, Wear/tear x2, Tezz, Liliana
G2: I needle Teferi and Jace, get to thopter sword, and kill him in about 10 minutes.
G3: The game starts with 8 minutes to play. It is back and forth, and eventually I am almost surprised when the judge shows up to call time. The board state is as follows: I have 3 thopters, active tezzeret, agent of bolas, needle on hallowed fountain, and he is at 18 as I start to hit him with thopters. Turn 1 he plays Teferi on Tezz. I board the weatherlight to find Tezz, but I am wary of him having a counter. I needle Teferi. I attack in, he drops to 15. I play Tezz second main. It resolves. Oops. I decide to plus to have the option of ultimating next turn. He plays opt and passes. Its turn 4, and I don’t draw the one artifact I need to ult Tezz and kill him, and he shows me a hand of Jace, terminus (the needle on hallowed fountain kept him on 5 lands) and surgical. With 1 more turn, homeboy was dead. I had to -1 on a thopter and swing him to 8, but then turns ends. He knows he lost, but refuses to concede.
Overall, the deck felt great. One more piece of tech for the board the weatherlight version I am playing: I am going to put a Boseiju in my side as a legendary target that will allow me to jam whir of invention right into the face of dispels and cryptics. Anyway that was long, but I figured someone on this thread would care enough to read it. If not, it was good to rehash for myself anyway! Keep fighting the good fight, brothers and sisters.
Some points on matchups and sideboard:
-To answer your amulet titan question, needle is one of the better cards against them. Needling engineered explosives is huge, even when you run your own. Your explosives are typically only good in the early game to hit amulets and tribe scouts, so needling explosives is an easy decision. Also, needling Tolaria West shuts down a lot of their flexibility. Needle, in general, is almost never a dead card - I actually keep it in vs burn, mostly because it's a 1-drop artifact, but also because burn brings in lavamancers usually, and shrines are always a possibility like you noticed against runaway red.
-Your first loss to humans in game 3, in my eyes, kind of shows why pentad prism is a bad card for us. Does it allow for turn-3 whir into bridge? Sure, but a turn 4 whir for bridge is probably also winning vs a non-nuts start vs humans. Because Prism iss 2 cmc, your mana rock becomes backbreakingly slow in the face of a Thalia, and gets stripped to boot (pun intended). If your pentad prisms were instead 1-drops (star, spellbomb or needle), you could have had the line of whirring turn 3 into darksteel citadel, which would have helped land a Tezz or another whir. And if you turned those pentad prisms into needle and spellbomb, suddenly you have 2 open slots (main and SB) for more battles at the bridge to crush those foul aggro decks! EDIT: just realized you're running only 19 lands. Turn those prisms into at least 1 more land, especially without serum visions.
-Board the Weatherlight. I know you're sold on the card, but Serum Visions does a similar job for cheaper. I know Board can be good, I've tested it, and I totally get if you want to run with it. I'm only saying give Serum Visions a chance because it's better early game vs late, which is more critical in my eyes in today's modern. Remember, serum visions grabs your removal, which can make all the difference early game. Maybe a 2-2 or 1-3 Serum/Board split?
-You hate burn, and so I feel I should tell you that you can SB better against them. This is what I would recommend given your list:
IN: Skite, Battle, 2x Wear/Tear, Sai, Lili (only on the play)
OUT: 2x Tezz, 2x Ensnaring Bridge, Spyglass, Damping Sphere
What you have to take into account against burn is that they are super fast and consistent, and also that they run out of steam. So bridge and Tezz are only going to do something against them if you've already won the game. On the other hand, useless 1-drop artifacts like cage and spellbomb act as mana rocks for whir AND battle and sac outlets for thopter foundry, and they also come down before Eidolon can resolve. So even though cage does literally nothing against them in terms of what the card does, I would always rather see one in my opener than a bridge. Turn 1 Cage, Turn 2 Foundry, Turn 3 sac cage and cast Board trying to grab sword is not a bad line.
-And you were right about your misplay against burn. Having a thopter foundry out with open mana and artifacts to sac is usually always the best thing, because you frustrate their decision making. I always only run foundry out post-board while holding open mana, for this reason. Turning destructive revelery into a card that reads: "RG: destroy target foundry, your opponent gains 1 life and puts a thopter into play" can be backbreaking in terms of tempo for a burn player. They only have so much mana each turn, so unless they're using it efficiently, they're not executing their game plan as they would like.
-General sideboard considerations. Put in a Phyrexian Revoker. Having a needle with legs can be huge, for instance, whirring for one in response to Teferi or Karn. And in burn matchups, a revoker can trade with an eidolon. Also, it hits KCI. I also might find room for one Detention Sphere, maybe over the second damping sphere.
My board would be this:
1x Grafdigger's Cage (Ego)
1x Pithing Needle/Revoker
1x Torpor Orb
1x Spellskite
1x Witchbane Orb
2x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Damnation
1x Padeem
2x Tez, AOB
1x Herald (Ego)
1x FLEX (Ego)
Not sure if Needle #2 from the board should be Revoker or not, leaning on needle for curve considerations. I'm keeping my 3x pushes in the main (I've been testing Battle and I don't care for it enough to replace push's tempo versatility), and I think I'm sticking with Time Sieve over KCI (I tried it a limited amount of time, and I actually got locked out by Thalia and Gaddock Teeg when Time Sieve could have won both games).
Also, while Leyline of the Void is annoying, I compiled a list of all the major archetypes that play it and the percentages of them having it vs not, and after reviewing the list I came to realize that many of those decks just fold to the Bridge plan anyway (plan b that ignores GY synergy). So if you prison lock them out of combat, you have all the time in the world to find Tez and ult. It's true that pulse can kill walkers and stuff, but it's often subpar against tron (they already got value off the walker you killed plus they could have any number of other haymakers the following turn), and somewhat hard to resolve against control (again, why I still like decay over trophy by a small margin).
Let me know what you guys think!
I think your worst cards and what should be swapped are 2x Thoughtseize, it's just not high enough impact IMO and has overlap with Ego. Speaking of which Ego has been great in my experience thusfar although I'll admit I'm still learning the best lines with it in various matchups. Herald is great when it works out, is a blow out when they keep removal in, and sometimes gets stuck in my hand since I find myself boarding out more do-nothing artifacts in postboard matches these days. I think Herald has more potential than we've investigated but we need to alter the deck slightly for him. He's probably best in multiples (3-4) in a grixis shell paired with aether grid and ignoring Stony/RIP
Although I really try to avoid most 1-for-1 type effects in this deck, I think cheap spot removal is still necessary due to the high density of 2-mana spells in our deck (fills in the gaps to buy time), and Thoughtsieze plays a similar role when the pushes aren't good. While I certainly don't care for IOK/Thoughtsieze maindeck, they do help set up certain lines during the turning points against Combo/Control where you can double spell and disrupt/turn the corner with an impactful spell (again, hand disruption + Herald is a fantastic line). I don't want to overload on these spells, as Collective Brutality is probably the best for this deck of all the hand disruption spells (due to Bridge synergies), but i still feel like Thoughtseize is a necessary evil against certain popular matchups.
However, do you think they should instead be additional threats like Azcanta/Walkers? I don't think I like them more than other utility lock pieces. Due to the nature of my testing/reverse engineering of the list I've settled on, I'd need these slots to overlap with the matchups they're specifically intended for and I don't necessarily like the idea of playing into their counterspell turns by bringing in more 1-turn spells that cost 4+. I'd rather pressure their mana by playing multiple cheap, efficient spells in the same turn instead of increasing typical clunky midrange lines that blue control mages live to see.
I haven't been sold on Sai like the Whir/Prison and KCI decks have incorporated, seeing that we run a much lower density of artifacts (they run upwards of 40-42+ artifacts, we run closer to 26-30). Post board, when he'd come in, we're also probably simultaneously cutting our artifact density even lower. Also, while he might be better than Herald against blue decks, I'm not convinced he's a faster clock than the demon vs combo. Being able to clock while also simultaneously taxing the hand they're trying to set up is so backbreaking. Herald just overlaps with 2x archetypes that I want to beat up on, whereas Grixis whir and KCI don't care as much about that since the former locks better (Chalice) and the latter can combo faster (KCI).
He might be better than I'm giving him credit for though, but I don't think this is a slot I'm willing to blindly sleeve up ahead of this weekend. I'll probably see how it goes in the following weeks though and adjust accordingly to optimize his triggers postboard.
What are other people's thoughts on Ego/Thoughtseize/etc? Half of the reason I like Ego post board is because Thoughtseize/Brutality can set up lines that ensure the first Ego or two could resolve, which sounds harder to do without the setup leading to a potential turn 3-4 Ego.
Really? I've found Sai to consistently be very underwhelming. Every time I've cast him so far he's been mediocre to bad. I've never had him be anywhere close to game ending. Like he's great out of KCI's board, but they play a lot more artifacts than we do, and more ways to chain their artifacts into drawing and casting more artifacts. I find I generally don't just have spare artifacts to sac to draw cards very often when I play him. By the time you include stuff like Serum Visions, Collective Brutality, Whir, Battle at the bridge, maybe Tezz, sideboarded non-artifacts, we've just got fewer. To be fair, I could definitely be overboarding some of the time I bring him in, which further reduces the artifact count, but that's definitely not always been the issue
Every time I cast Sai, he so often sits there for several turns not making any thopters while I draw Abrupt Decay, Whir, land, land, Serum Visions, etc. So far I think every time I put Sai into my sideboard, I consistently regret it and wish it was almost anything else.
I've never really been a fan of Herald either. My experience is people almost always leave a bunch of removal in, either because they are unfamiliar with the matchup, or they are expecting sideboard Sai/Padeem/Something.