I like inquisition over thoughtsieze in the main because of what you said, the life loss can matter in several match ups. In aggressive matches I like to play the deck much like a control deck and I often end up turning the corner on 5 or less life, so having thoutsieze in the main would hurt too much with that. Also most threats in the current meta are 3 cmc or less.
Fatal push I might go up on in the main, it worked out great for getting creatures you don't want to stick around even if they can't attack. Also I like to hold the bridge in some match ups like humans and affinity until they buff their creatures a few times and then all the smaller stuff wont be able to get under the bridge.
I also prefer serum visions over opt because it digs further and I don't much care about instant speed, but like you said I think that is just preference. Also like nobodys said bauble+fetch is a free opt on its own so that is a neat interaction.
What he was saying is that if you want the top card you can play a non-fetch land and then cast Serum. That's obviously not always possible(hands with only fetch-lands) but certainly happens a fair amount of time.
@DegenerateEE @MrImp First of all, congrats to both you guys on your recent results!
It's been a while (I took a break after attending GP Hartford in the spring to focus on Dominaria Limited ahead of GPDC and then Standard ahead of the last RPTQ and the PPTQ season leading up to it), but it feels good to be back. I have to admit that I played Infect upon my return to modern (went 6-3 at the Philly SCG Classic), but I felt like a large portion of the meta was still weak to Ensnaring Bridge, especially with the recent rise of Bant Spirits.
1) I've tweaked my deck a bit and really like a few things that Travis had going on with his awesome finish at GP Vegas, as well as a relatively recent list posted by racing089 (hey again - I was your Round 2 opponent at the Sunday PTQ at Hartford!!!). Anyway, I see that a lot of people like lowering the curve (Racing 089 cut down to 2 Tez main with Witchbane Orb replacing #3 and Tez #3 in the board), while some people are cutting down to 0 main altogether and placing 2 in the board, much like Lantern has done in the past. The list (maindeck) I had been on previously was playing 2x Tez, 2x Search for Azcanta, and a Bottled Cloister (whirrable target that provides card advantage plus gets you hellbent in a pinch) for curve consideration, but I decided to swap a Search for Azcanta for Tez 3 right before the GP. I get that seeing Tez in an opener in game 1 can force a mulligan/result in clunky hands, I still like keeping some number in order to close the game behind a bridge if you can't expend proper resources to get to Thopter/Sword in game 1. I was wondering if others strongly advocate on trimming Tez vs cutting him altogether from the main.
2) I was a skeptic on Torpor Orb as it shuts down ThopterSword against a deck where you still want the combo and it doesn't stop you from getting attacked, but after the last couple events I've played, I'm totally on board.
3) I know Storm has been a historically poor matchup for this deck (as are most combo decks), and while Damping Sphere helps, it's wise to recognize that it's not just an auto win. That being said, I remember one of the videos linked on the first page of this blog has a very competent player going through a league with Tezzzeret and he mentions that he boards out the combo altogether vs decks like Storm because it expends so many resources just to get your 2-3 pieces online, especially when you might have to whir for a hate piece in the process to stay alive, putting you further behind to get to ThopterSword + Time Sieve/KCI. I've been testing with a friend extensively and wanted to chime in that my post-board win rate vs storm is a lot better when you're less focused on trying to assemble your own combo, and instead, focus on whirring for lock pieces like Cage/Damp Sphere/Spellbomb/Witchbane Orb, then protect it with Jar/Spellskite/Padeem. When backed up with cheap interaction like push (for cost-reduction creature), Thoughtseize, and Collective Brutality, all you need to do is Land a Tezzeret/Herald of Anguish (insane in this matchup) and the game is usually set. While both the combo lines and the approach I mentioned here both seem like a lot of work to accomplish, the difference is that the latter approach allows your post board configuration to contain a high density of cards that are good on their own, rather than having 8-ish combo pieces that do nothing by themselves. As far as play patterns go as well, there's a huge difference in slamming a combo piece turn 2 into combo piece/whir for combo piece turn 3 (which is an above-par hand) and hoping you're not dead vs using the same turns/mana to play hate pieces/interaction and aiming to race with Tez/Herald/buying time to get to a finisher (this ties into my first topic of conversation, as I like to have approximately 4x threats in the 75 that are good vs our bad matchups/ignore Stony Silence). You still have to play tight, you just use less resources to do so.
Let me know what you guys think about these things! Again, great to be back
I could see boarding the combo out altogether vs storm. I personally keep 2 foundry, 1 sword, and a sieve, just because I don't have enough cards to actually bring in, and the combo can sometimes win and/or eat their removal spells.
I still haven't tried torpor orb yet, but that's because I feel like humans and spirits are good/decent matchups, and I'd rather just pack sweepers or more battles at the bridge which affect a greater range of matchups like Jund, Hollow one, and burn. If Coco and 4 color saheeli start gaining ground, then maybe.
@dustycrumbz: I feel like 2 main deck Tezzeret is exactly where I want to be but the main deck witchbane orb may not be good enough. I really like having it to slam the door shut against burn/valakut plus it is my primary route to victory against storm in game 1 but those are the ONLY matches where I am happy to see it. I think the key to evaluating Tezzeret is that you want to draw it ASAP once you get to 4+ lands but you don't want it until that point. I still want to play JTMS but I can't justify so many 4 cmc cards with limited acceleration and Tezzeret is far superior in this deck. In addition to that Tezzeret is one of our few outs in the combo matchups. If they stumble and you can start making 5/5 creatures you can end the game before they are able to get where they want to be. Typically a Whir for 1 lock piece + Tezzeret can beat combo but a lot of things need to go right in your opening 10 cards to make that work for you.
Against combo I still want the combo. This is really a thopter/sword deck above all else. Sure you prioritize the lock pieces against combo because you don't want to die but once you have decided you are not dying the combo is the threat that wins you the game. The combo can be assembled at instant speed which is HUGE against combo. Think about it, if you are safe enough to tap down for Tezzeret/Herald against Storm or KCI then you were in a winning position already. Typically you threaten the Whir of Invention until you can use it combo off instead of needing to use it as a lock piece. A good player will eventually force your hand but sometimes they can't and you get to combo kill them instead of locking them out.
The hardest part about playing this deck is deciding when you need to play to win instead of not to lose. Tezzeret and Whir let you do that. I have won games where I feel that I wouldn't have won maybe 6 months ago by trying to really identify my position in the game and decide if locking them out really gives me the best win percentage versus jamming a threat.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
U/B Tezzeret Control
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
@racing089 I think I might try to cut down to 2x Tezzeret main again. You're absolutely right about wanting to see it turn 4-6 (assuming you don't have the combo yet), but never really before then. I don't like cutting it altogether (it's tempting so I get why others are advocating for it), but 2 seems like a happy medium between seeing it consistently enough mid-game but not consistently seeing it in an opening 7/prior to turn 3. I also like that you have the third in the board (keeping the count at 3x in the 75). Is going down to 1 main too little though? Should it just be either 2-3x main or 0x main, but not 1x main?
I also totally agree that we're primarily a ThopterSword combo deck and I don't fault anyone for wanting to remain as such post board against storm, aiming to get the 3-card combo. I just wanted to share my success with this alternate postboard approach, as I personally prefer having a focused post board plan against storm and not getting halfway towards assembling the 3 card combo, only to have to jump ship and say whir for a hate piece, then have to focus on protecting said hate piece not to die, thus prolonging your advancement towards finalizing the combo (and needing to spend/draw into even more resources). I've just had more success focusing on the line of "lock piece + protection for it" right from the get go, then closing the door once we inevitably draw into a standalone threat that ends the game (Tez/Herald). It also means that each of your standalone draws are more impactful since drawing the first redundant combo piece when you only have half of ThopterSword can put you so far behind. Again, you spend less resources to close the door on storm by having a higher density of impactful draws with individual card quality and a focused line for your whirs.
I was able to beat it at the Sunday PTQ in Hartford in both postboard games, tested with my friend a bunch the last couple weeks, and most recently 2-0'd it on Monday against a very experienced player, but with the release of damping sphere (I had an Ethersworn Canonist then, but was difficult to hardcast consistently) and my inclusion of Herald back in my board (went up to 4 threats instead of just the 3x Tez), I feel even more confident in this approach.
Just wanted to share my thoughts in case people were having trouble against storm/feel like they're getting a bit lucky by being able to whir for something like spellbomb/relic and "getting them" (which I don't like to rely on as my consistent out). Sometimes even timing it at the most optimal moment won't close the turn for them and very intuitive storm players will see right through this, just like we Tez players see right through opposing relic/spellbomb/surgical).
On another topic, I saw Trav mentioned he felt the Search for Azcanta was "excess" and wanted to cut it. I've been a huge advocate of it for a while but I needed to make room in order to adjust my 75 towards a more creature/aggro-heavy metagame (where this card doesn't shine). I hate prison decks with a high amount of 1-for-1's but I've recently been trying 3x Push in the 75 (now all maindeck) to buy a bit of time against creature strategies/combo decks with creatures like storm/infect. However, I still really like bottled cloister as a way to generate card advantage (helps find non-artifact spells postboard when you need them, say against stony silence), as well as help get behind a bridge when your draws aren't as kind to you and you need to get hellbent (hitting 3 land drops and casting T3 bridge into T4 Cloister is a 2-card lock, despite how good/bad the rest of the cards you've seen by turn 4 are). Being able to whir for this pseudo-planeswalker type permanent is nice, but maybe it's also excess?
Wanted to know what everyone thought about both Search and Cloister.
@the_nobodys That was also another reason I was hesitant to include it in the sideboard - it's actually more narrow than I'd like. For now, I think I'm going to keep it while the humans/spirits/coco decks are still at large. Those matchups are good but they can get a bit too close for comfort postboard, so I'm ok keeping it in there for now. It used to be second damping sphere but idk if a redundant copy of that is totally necessary.
When I started playing the deck the meta was in such a different place. The existence of humans has forced every deck in modern to become polarized - essentially forcing out midrange.
After a bunch of testing and watching people okay I think this build has found itself edged out of viability in the meta. If you want to play mox opal and combo I think you’re better off playing KCI, if you want to control the game you’re better off playing UR prison.
There are just too many games sitting on one piece of the combo and a few low CMC artifacts just praying for action. If anything, I think modern will keep skewing towards simpler/faster/more efficient and I don’t think that a deck that has the possibility to sputter like ours is currently a good contender.
@boomforest TBH I do not feel the same. I think the meta has changed around a bit in the last few months but has remained a creature heavy meta, there's just an uptick in faster decks to combat the slight rise in popularity of decks like KCI/Storm/Tron, which were all down to some degree back in the spring. I do think that your sentiments in your last paragraph reflect how this deck aims to play, however if your lines leading up to being hellbent end with a bridge against a creature deck, chances are you're going to win. Same goes for the combo.
When I was testing in the late winter/early spring, I tried playing the deck with no serum visions and after going through a lot of configurations I think you're doing a disservice to yourself by 0 copies despite wanting to take them out against certain matchups. being able to manipulate your lines in the early turns to either dig for the combo/set up a sequence for the next turn or two to remain hellbent for bridge is so invaluable.
The reason I like this deck over UR prison is that the other large portion of the meta right now are fair decks trying to prey on these creature decks through interaction. This positions us to be not only favored against the creature decks, but the blue decks (less so mardu but it's still definitely winnable) of the format as well.
This deck is by no means Tier 1, nor is it for the faint of heart. This is a complicated deck that rewards its pilot for making a good meta choice, as well as tight play. It's certainly not always going to be well-positioned during all cycles of the modern meta - but if a large portion of the open and local metas I'm entering are creature decks and blue interactive decks, I'm on board to take my chances with this.
Speaking of UR Prison, I had tried to shore up the weakness to blue by merging it with part of the core of this deck - mainly the thopter/sword combo (I played Jeskai). It worked pretty well but I honestly just missed having Tez AOB against Stony Silence decks.
Has anyone else tried to combine the core of UR prison (uptick in things like maindeck chalice, EE, etc.) with this Tez deck? I know people tried playing a GQ/Crucible package with this version of Tez before and while that's a large portion of UR prison, that's actually the part I'd consider trimming/taking out. I'm not sold on that being good right now.
Hey, I see the Tezz control community playing many non artifacts such as JTMS and Fatal Push, but recently started seeing people move towards heavier artifact lists again. Here is a whirless list I have run to some pretty good success at my LGS. I just wanted to post it to see what some people think.
I prefer playing Trinket Mage over Whir of invention as it doesn't cost me triple blue, and I feel the utility of trinket mage does enough, plus making a 2/2 especially after boards where most removal is out of their deck is almost backbreaking to opponents sometimes. The random body the trinket mage gives has honestly never been irrelevant except game 1 where it eats their redundant fatal pushes or bolts. But I like this version I've been playing, the only loss I've picked up recently has been against a random jank opponent playing the enchantment prison deck, they got down stony silence and double greater auramancy, I was not upset by this loss lol they deserved it. But I just wanted to put this up here to see what people think.
@dustycrumbz yeah what I was saying for cases against the deck being tier 1. It is certainly a deck and can win games, but I think the relatively low strength of the combo combined with how fragile it is means the deck has too high of a fail percentage to be a viable part of the major tournament scene.
As for combining this deck with UR prison I think that’s a terrible idea - but to your credit it is the first thought everyone has when they look at the deck “NEEDS WINCONS!”. That deck doesn’t need help winning - stony silence is not a problem for the deck like it is for thopter/sword. You need every sq ft of the deck to avoid losing, so doing something like adding 2cmc pieces for a two card combo would be a fundamental detriment to it.
@boomforest My inquiry regarding placing some number of the thopter sword combo in the ur list wasn't that it needed a way to win the game, but rather address one of the major flaws in its gameplan - it's weakness to blue control decks and cryptic command in general. I figured even playing a minimal amount of thopter sword combined with its prison core seemed like something that could work since the artifact subtheme remains in tact, just wasn't sure if anyone had tried it outside of the handful of times I took it to my LGS. Just a thought.
Has anyone been playing cloister still and/or have people liked keeping/cutting search for Azcanta? I've found myself playing more 1-for-1s recently to buy time against aggressive decks consistently before stabilizing turns 3-4ish. I don't typically like 1-for-1 trades in prison decks but it seemed like people have also been playing a higher number of push on the 75 (some main).
I'm up to 2 search for azcanta. The card just does so much to further the gameplan. Filters for combo then gives more Mana to make thopters. I'm also up to 3 bridge. I think I felt like I could get away with 2 for a while but I've been winning way more with hand disruption into combo piece/search into bridge. Rebuke has also been excellent as a 2x. Leaving up a single U looks very benign to most players.
I keep a 2 land hand, one of which was a swamp. I fail to find 3 blue sources for my whir of invention and die before I am able to assemble the combo. My hand was somewhat sketchy and I ended up doing very little this game while getting beat down by lingering souls tokens.
I boarded out my removal and irrelevant lock pieces for cards that I felt would do something. Common theme of the day was wanting to board out more cards then I boarded in.
Game 2 I assemble the combo by the end of turn 3 and he scoops to it shortly after.
Game 3 was a long and grindy game but eventually I used Abrupt Decay on his Stony Silence and made enough thopters for lethal the next turn.
Round 2: U-Tron
Game 1 he spell pierces my turn 2 and turn 3 thopter foundry’s before natural drawing into tron on turn 4 and casting Sundering Titan. I managed to get the combo together but not before he mindslavered me. I lose.
Again I board out all of my removal for cards that did more.
Game 2: I squeeze a Tezzeret into play and proceed to kill him with 5/5 creatures.
Game 3: More of game 2 but he used up all of his counter magic on the combo before Tezzeret slammed the door shut.
Round 3: Naya Scapeshift
Game 1: T3 BBE into T4 BBE into Primeval Titan. I died.
I’m not super well equipped for this deck but I bring in cards that can destroy a stony silence as well as more needles because he had a wide array of planeswalkers.
Game 2: I get the combo and he plays rest in peace immediately after. I lock the board up with Ensnaring Bridge, 2x Welding Jar, Witchbane Orb and needles. He draws Stony Silence into Abrade before I can find an Abrupt Decay and I am unable to protect my bridge with Welding Jars and lose.
Round 4: Dredge
I mulligan to 4 and he keeps 6. His hand does nothing expect cast dredge creatures and I assemble the combo by turn 5 to take the win.
Board out every card that does nothing for cards that have minimal but more impact.
T1 Nihil Spellbomb into T2 Whir for Grafdigger’s cage since I was already holding the combo. My hand was absurd and I take an easy 2-0 victory.
Round 5: Affinity
He has a slow hand I have a ton of removal. I buy enough time to set up the combo and he concedes.
KEEP my removal but board out most of the top of my curve. I cut 1 Tezzeret, 2 Whir of Invention in addition to the irrelevant pieces in this match.
I have some removal followed by Ensnaring Bridge into Tezzeret. He is unable to beat Tezzeret and eventually loses to Tezzeret ultimate.
Before round 6 I think I can draw into top 8 but players better than me explain that if I draw I have about a 1/3 chance of not making it in. My opponent overhears and learns that he will then have a 2/3 chance of not making it in if we draw. Eventually we decide on playing it out.
Round 6: Jeskai Control
I have played against this player before and know the matchup is incredibly favorable for me. However during game 1 see over 45 cards (he almost decked) and find zero Sword of the Meek and only one Whir of Invention which gets countered while I have all 4 Thopter Foundry in play. I lose game one with less than 20 minutes left in the round.
Board out all of my removal for cards that interact.
WE trade resources for a while before I find a Window to get Tezzeret onto the table. My opponent was able to deal with it but by then I had already found the combo and began killing him.
Game 3 starts with less than 8 minutes on the clock. Again I have turn 2 Thopter Foundry but I don’t find the Sword of the Meek until my last turn of turns. I ate my entire board with thopter foundry to stay alive and block long enough to get the draw.
The way things worked out I now have a 50/50 chance of making 8th seed instead of winning and getting 1st seed. Luckily the breakers fall my way and I make into top 8.
Quarterfinals: Ad Nausem
Game 1 I quickly assemble to the combo and strip my opponents Ad Nausem. I think I have won and he draws one off the top to kill me just in time.
Cut all the removal and bring in the extra Dampning Sphere as well as needles and abrupt decays.
I assemble the combo and tutor a Dampening Sphere into play. He can’t combo off through it in time and I win.
Game 3. Spoiler. I punted. We get into this position where I have made it so he can’t win through lightning storm and has to win with laboratory maniac. I have the combo online, Dampning Sphere in play and Tezzeret ready to ultimate. My opponent has Phyrexian Unlife in play and about 10 life. I consult with a Judge to ask how Tezzeret's ultimate interacts with Phyrexian Unlife and his response was “Your opponent will lose all of their life and be at zero life”. For whatever reason I took this as confirmation that Tezzeret ultimate would kill my opponent through Phyrexian Unlife so I attacked for 3 then -4 Tezzeret. Now I learn that he isn’t dead and I need to keep playing. Next turn I am able to attack for 7 poison damage but then he has just enough mana to kill me through the Dampning Sphere. Had I used Tezzeret's Ultimate, then attacked I would have gotten the 3 additional poison I needed to win the game. It feels bad but it was a valuable lesson. I know judges aren’t allowed to help in any way but I sure wish there was a way of answering the question you are asking while being less cryptic. Next time I’ll have to be more specific and double check everything before I proceed.
I know people here have been talking about cutting Tezzerets again and I just don't see it. Tezzeret put the game on his back carried me to victory multiple times throughout the tournament today and I will absolutely be keeping my configuration of 2+1.
Most talk of cutting Tez is moving him to the board because thoptersword alone wins most game ones. You bring him out of the board because he isn't affected by stony silence and postboard games are inevitably grinder as you face much more interaction.
It is extremely rare for tezz to win a game one that thoptersword would not have won anyways, while he can absolutely lose you game ones by rotting in your hand and/or making your bridge too slow.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Just as a fun aside, and not really relevant to anything here, I decided to port Esper thopter sword over to Legacy and jam leagues with it on MTGO. It's surprisingly decent. After several leagues, I have a feel for some of the cards we can't play in modern, and have some thoughts for what our modern deck needs.
Biggest difference is the quality of 1-drops. Brainstorm and ponder are obvious, but I went with a 4 entomb build (with sword and souls as the only targets). Also, needle is a great main deck 1-drop, as there are almost always targets like wasteland and vial. Having quality, relevant 1-drops is the biggest noticable difference between the legacy/modern versions. I think that's why discard is what I've arrived at as being the best overall 1-drops we can use right now. I'd love it if they printed a card like the new 1-drop foundry for commander 2018, but for modern.
Second biggest difference seems to be transmute artifact. Having access to 4 thopter foundry, 4 whir, and some number of a second tutor (transmute) that puts stuff directly into play is huge. The level of consistency that the deck can (attempt through countermagic) is really insane, and something we keep striving for in the modern version.
On the other hand, a card like baleful strix is really only just OK. I'm not sure it would actually make the cut in aggressive modern, I'd rather always just play more bridges I think. The removal isn't really any better, either.
So, just to sum up, I feel like this deck has a lot of the tools it needs, but absolutely could use a quality 1-drop that's useful in the modern meta. A second good tutor would go a long way, as well.
@theobodys: Transmute Artifact is absurdly good. It is basically whir except always costs UUx Where x is less then or equal to 1. It was my favorite card when playing with the archetype. Baleful Strix is also absurd though. It likely won't shine in a deck where it is the only creature but if you play it alongside other bodies like Phyrexian Revoker or the SFM package it gets significantly stronger.
Also if you are already Esper and playing Transmute Artifact you should try out 1 Breya, Etherium Shaper. Especially if you have Mox Diamond or some other way of fixing the red when you draw it. The card is an absolute HOUSE against the grindy strategies.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
U/B Tezzeret Control
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
Notes about my deck:
I played in an IQ the week prior and had a medium time despite seeing all relatively good matchups. The plus side was that I was able to see that most of the local players in my old hometown were either on a creature deck or blue decks to combat everyone else. There were some combo players, but the good news was that the usual suspects (namely TRON) was at an all-time low. With the recent resurgence of these BridgeVine decks surfacing, plus the other people who maybe have taken a break from modern for a bit (like me) and are just dusting off the decks that were undisputed kings of the format (like Hollow One), this only helped further my decision to run it back and make some tweaks based on what everyone else has been doing while I've been "Out Of Office" lol. I took Trav's suggestion to cut Search for Azcanta for Damping Sphere main, Racing 089's suggestion of the 2/1 Split of Tezzeret, cut Bottled Cloister for second Damnation in the board, and tried playing 3 Fatal Push main (cut a Serum Visions to make room/keep tempo lines in tact). I tuned my list for a creature meta and here we are.
R1 - UW Control
G1: This matchup is def favored before all the hate comes in (they have so many dead cards in their 75). I do have to admit that even though I was ahead, I got a little lucky with a really good turn of EOT Whir (He tapped out for Cryptic) and I topdecked Thopter Foundry next turn anyway (this is part of the reason I cut the Prisms/Talismans back during testing in the Spring - Topdeck equity/impact density).
G2: He sees all the hate and out tempos me with snaps and cheap counterspells.
G3: I get to play Thopter Foundry after his turn 1 tapped Colonnade, which puts him on the back foot for the rest of the match. Waiting to line up turns of EOT Whir into main phase threat against blue decks is so hard for them to beat.
Sidenote: It's funny because about 1 year ago I was on the exact opposite side of this matchup at an IQ (though I had splashed red for the Saheeli Combo). It was my only loss of the comp but it wasn't even close - which started getting me excited to come back to Tez in the first place.
R2 - Martyr Proc
G1: It's been a while since I've seen this deck, but Pithing Needle on Martyr plus Early Bridge gave me all the time in the world to find the combo.
G2: He squeezes a win out of me by getting a big early hit with a pumped Serra Ascendant, then played a bunch of 1/x's to get under bridge (I kept drawing into land with a land already in hand, really missed bottled cloister here lol).
G3: The guy plays turn 1 Hex Parasite?! Luckily I get to needle it before Bridge into Tez, then I start gaining incremental value by forcing him to swing while he can at Tez while I have a 5/5, then Gaining value from Herald of Anguish (dude kept in Path AND drew it right away - but he had to discard a Stony in order to keep the path). Thopter Sword eventually wins.
R3 - Grixis DS
G1: This matchup is close, but it's been getting better because affinity has been at a low and is also already bad to their cheap interaction, and hand disruption/stubborn denial plus cheap clocks are already enough to beat decks like KCI - so they're going down to 0-1 K command main. I slam a bridge while he puts the shileds down and he admists this is the case and conceded.
G2: I fight through 3-4 IOK/Thoughtseizes but that means the rest of his hand is less explosive/reactive to my removal spells. I get Thopter Sword online and he dies.
R4/5 - ID into Top 8
Quarterfinals - Humans
G1: Get an early bridge and win. Feeling super good because the other decks left in the Top 8 are Burn (beat Humans fast), Elves (beat Ponza - the only ancient grudge deck in the Top 8), and Hollow one was up a game against Grixis DS.
G2: I keep an ok hand, but he's on the play and has an insanely fast hand. To make matters worse, I only draw into the 2 Tez I kept in and lands.
G3: My hand has 2 lands, Foundry, Whir, Mox, Bauble, and Maelstrom Pulse. He get a turn 2 Freebooter to take my whir. I draw into sword but never see another land unfortunately and felt I had to use pulse on Freebooter while I could (cuz getting Torpor Orb buys me a ton of time. He draws into Meedling Mage, Gaddock Teeg, and Kitaki and essentially locks the prison deck out of the game.
I'm pretty sold on about 70 of my 75, but I have to admit that I missed Bottled Cloister a couple times. Not sure I wanted the second Damnation despite seeing so many creature decks. I would have rather had more cheap removal spells if anything but i think 3 Push + 3 brutality is already pushing the amount of 1-for-1 trades I'd like in my 75.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Fatal push I might go up on in the main, it worked out great for getting creatures you don't want to stick around even if they can't attack. Also I like to hold the bridge in some match ups like humans and affinity until they buff their creatures a few times and then all the smaller stuff wont be able to get under the bridge.
I also prefer serum visions over opt because it digs further and I don't much care about instant speed, but like you said I think that is just preference. Also like nobodys said bauble+fetch is a free opt on its own so that is a neat interaction.
It's been a while (I took a break after attending GP Hartford in the spring to focus on Dominaria Limited ahead of GPDC and then Standard ahead of the last RPTQ and the PPTQ season leading up to it), but it feels good to be back. I have to admit that I played Infect upon my return to modern (went 6-3 at the Philly SCG Classic), but I felt like a large portion of the meta was still weak to Ensnaring Bridge, especially with the recent rise of Bant Spirits.
1) I've tweaked my deck a bit and really like a few things that Travis had going on with his awesome finish at GP Vegas, as well as a relatively recent list posted by racing089 (hey again - I was your Round 2 opponent at the Sunday PTQ at Hartford!!!). Anyway, I see that a lot of people like lowering the curve (Racing 089 cut down to 2 Tez main with Witchbane Orb replacing #3 and Tez #3 in the board), while some people are cutting down to 0 main altogether and placing 2 in the board, much like Lantern has done in the past. The list (maindeck) I had been on previously was playing 2x Tez, 2x Search for Azcanta, and a Bottled Cloister (whirrable target that provides card advantage plus gets you hellbent in a pinch) for curve consideration, but I decided to swap a Search for Azcanta for Tez 3 right before the GP. I get that seeing Tez in an opener in game 1 can force a mulligan/result in clunky hands, I still like keeping some number in order to close the game behind a bridge if you can't expend proper resources to get to Thopter/Sword in game 1. I was wondering if others strongly advocate on trimming Tez vs cutting him altogether from the main.
2) I was a skeptic on Torpor Orb as it shuts down ThopterSword against a deck where you still want the combo and it doesn't stop you from getting attacked, but after the last couple events I've played, I'm totally on board.
3) I know Storm has been a historically poor matchup for this deck (as are most combo decks), and while Damping Sphere helps, it's wise to recognize that it's not just an auto win. That being said, I remember one of the videos linked on the first page of this blog has a very competent player going through a league with Tezzzeret and he mentions that he boards out the combo altogether vs decks like Storm because it expends so many resources just to get your 2-3 pieces online, especially when you might have to whir for a hate piece in the process to stay alive, putting you further behind to get to ThopterSword + Time Sieve/KCI. I've been testing with a friend extensively and wanted to chime in that my post-board win rate vs storm is a lot better when you're less focused on trying to assemble your own combo, and instead, focus on whirring for lock pieces like Cage/Damp Sphere/Spellbomb/Witchbane Orb, then protect it with Jar/Spellskite/Padeem. When backed up with cheap interaction like push (for cost-reduction creature), Thoughtseize, and Collective Brutality, all you need to do is Land a Tezzeret/Herald of Anguish (insane in this matchup) and the game is usually set. While both the combo lines and the approach I mentioned here both seem like a lot of work to accomplish, the difference is that the latter approach allows your post board configuration to contain a high density of cards that are good on their own, rather than having 8-ish combo pieces that do nothing by themselves. As far as play patterns go as well, there's a huge difference in slamming a combo piece turn 2 into combo piece/whir for combo piece turn 3 (which is an above-par hand) and hoping you're not dead vs using the same turns/mana to play hate pieces/interaction and aiming to race with Tez/Herald/buying time to get to a finisher (this ties into my first topic of conversation, as I like to have approximately 4x threats in the 75 that are good vs our bad matchups/ignore Stony Silence). You still have to play tight, you just use less resources to do so.
Let me know what you guys think about these things! Again, great to be back
I still haven't tried torpor orb yet, but that's because I feel like humans and spirits are good/decent matchups, and I'd rather just pack sweepers or more battles at the bridge which affect a greater range of matchups like Jund, Hollow one, and burn. If Coco and 4 color saheeli start gaining ground, then maybe.
Against combo I still want the combo. This is really a thopter/sword deck above all else. Sure you prioritize the lock pieces against combo because you don't want to die but once you have decided you are not dying the combo is the threat that wins you the game. The combo can be assembled at instant speed which is HUGE against combo. Think about it, if you are safe enough to tap down for Tezzeret/Herald against Storm or KCI then you were in a winning position already. Typically you threaten the Whir of Invention until you can use it combo off instead of needing to use it as a lock piece. A good player will eventually force your hand but sometimes they can't and you get to combo kill them instead of locking them out.
The hardest part about playing this deck is deciding when you need to play to win instead of not to lose. Tezzeret and Whir let you do that. I have won games where I feel that I wouldn't have won maybe 6 months ago by trying to really identify my position in the game and decide if locking them out really gives me the best win percentage versus jamming a threat.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
I also totally agree that we're primarily a ThopterSword combo deck and I don't fault anyone for wanting to remain as such post board against storm, aiming to get the 3-card combo. I just wanted to share my success with this alternate postboard approach, as I personally prefer having a focused post board plan against storm and not getting halfway towards assembling the 3 card combo, only to have to jump ship and say whir for a hate piece, then have to focus on protecting said hate piece not to die, thus prolonging your advancement towards finalizing the combo (and needing to spend/draw into even more resources). I've just had more success focusing on the line of "lock piece + protection for it" right from the get go, then closing the door once we inevitably draw into a standalone threat that ends the game (Tez/Herald). It also means that each of your standalone draws are more impactful since drawing the first redundant combo piece when you only have half of ThopterSword can put you so far behind. Again, you spend less resources to close the door on storm by having a higher density of impactful draws with individual card quality and a focused line for your whirs.
I was able to beat it at the Sunday PTQ in Hartford in both postboard games, tested with my friend a bunch the last couple weeks, and most recently 2-0'd it on Monday against a very experienced player, but with the release of damping sphere (I had an Ethersworn Canonist then, but was difficult to hardcast consistently) and my inclusion of Herald back in my board (went up to 4 threats instead of just the 3x Tez), I feel even more confident in this approach.
Just wanted to share my thoughts in case people were having trouble against storm/feel like they're getting a bit lucky by being able to whir for something like spellbomb/relic and "getting them" (which I don't like to rely on as my consistent out). Sometimes even timing it at the most optimal moment won't close the turn for them and very intuitive storm players will see right through this, just like we Tez players see right through opposing relic/spellbomb/surgical).
On another topic, I saw Trav mentioned he felt the Search for Azcanta was "excess" and wanted to cut it. I've been a huge advocate of it for a while but I needed to make room in order to adjust my 75 towards a more creature/aggro-heavy metagame (where this card doesn't shine). I hate prison decks with a high amount of 1-for-1's but I've recently been trying 3x Push in the 75 (now all maindeck) to buy a bit of time against creature strategies/combo decks with creatures like storm/infect. However, I still really like bottled cloister as a way to generate card advantage (helps find non-artifact spells postboard when you need them, say against stony silence), as well as help get behind a bridge when your draws aren't as kind to you and you need to get hellbent (hitting 3 land drops and casting T3 bridge into T4 Cloister is a 2-card lock, despite how good/bad the rest of the cards you've seen by turn 4 are). Being able to whir for this pseudo-planeswalker type permanent is nice, but maybe it's also excess?
Wanted to know what everyone thought about both Search and Cloister.
Could be wrong, we'll see!
After a bunch of testing and watching people okay I think this build has found itself edged out of viability in the meta. If you want to play mox opal and combo I think you’re better off playing KCI, if you want to control the game you’re better off playing UR prison.
There are just too many games sitting on one piece of the combo and a few low CMC artifacts just praying for action. If anything, I think modern will keep skewing towards simpler/faster/more efficient and I don’t think that a deck that has the possibility to sputter like ours is currently a good contender.
Anyone else feeling that?
When I was testing in the late winter/early spring, I tried playing the deck with no serum visions and after going through a lot of configurations I think you're doing a disservice to yourself by 0 copies despite wanting to take them out against certain matchups. being able to manipulate your lines in the early turns to either dig for the combo/set up a sequence for the next turn or two to remain hellbent for bridge is so invaluable.
The reason I like this deck over UR prison is that the other large portion of the meta right now are fair decks trying to prey on these creature decks through interaction. This positions us to be not only favored against the creature decks, but the blue decks (less so mardu but it's still definitely winnable) of the format as well.
This deck is by no means Tier 1, nor is it for the faint of heart. This is a complicated deck that rewards its pilot for making a good meta choice, as well as tight play. It's certainly not always going to be well-positioned during all cycles of the modern meta - but if a large portion of the open and local metas I'm entering are creature decks and blue interactive decks, I'm on board to take my chances with this.
Has anyone else tried to combine the core of UR prison (uptick in things like maindeck chalice, EE, etc.) with this Tez deck? I know people tried playing a GQ/Crucible package with this version of Tez before and while that's a large portion of UR prison, that's actually the part I'd consider trimming/taking out. I'm not sold on that being good right now.
2x Trinket Mage
4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3x Thoughtseize
3x Collective Brutality
4x Thopter Foundry
3x Sword of the Meek
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Talisman of Dominance
4x Mox Opal
1x Crucible of worlds
1x Executioner's Capsule
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Pithing Needle
1x Welding Jar
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Expedition Map
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Island
2x Swamp
3x Darksteel Citadel
3x Ghost Quarter
1x Academy Ruins
1x Inventor's Fair
1x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
1x Godless Shrine
3x Extirpate
1x Duress
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Trinket Mage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Welding Jar
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Spellskite
2x Damping Sphere
I prefer playing Trinket Mage over Whir of invention as it doesn't cost me triple blue, and I feel the utility of trinket mage does enough, plus making a 2/2 especially after boards where most removal is out of their deck is almost backbreaking to opponents sometimes. The random body the trinket mage gives has honestly never been irrelevant except game 1 where it eats their redundant fatal pushes or bolts. But I like this version I've been playing, the only loss I've picked up recently has been against a random jank opponent playing the enchantment prison deck, they got down stony silence and double greater auramancy, I was not upset by this loss lol they deserved it. But I just wanted to put this up here to see what people think.
As for combining this deck with UR prison I think that’s a terrible idea - but to your credit it is the first thought everyone has when they look at the deck “NEEDS WINCONS!”. That deck doesn’t need help winning - stony silence is not a problem for the deck like it is for thopter/sword. You need every sq ft of the deck to avoid losing, so doing something like adding 2cmc pieces for a two card combo would be a fundamental detriment to it.
1 Breeding Pool
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Flooded Strand
1 Inventors' Fair
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Watery Grave
Spells:
2 Collective Brutality
4 Fatal Push
4 Serum Visions
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Whir of Invention
1 Damping Sphere
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Mox Opal
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Sword of the Meek
4 Thopter Foundry
1 Time Sieve
1 Welding Jar
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Battle at the Bridge
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
2 Damnation
1 Damping Sphere
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Herald of Anguish
2 Pithing Needle
1 Spellskite
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Welding Jar
Round 1: Esper Midrange
I keep a 2 land hand, one of which was a swamp. I fail to find 3 blue sources for my whir of invention and die before I am able to assemble the combo. My hand was somewhat sketchy and I ended up doing very little this game while getting beat down by lingering souls tokens.
I boarded out my removal and irrelevant lock pieces for cards that I felt would do something. Common theme of the day was wanting to board out more cards then I boarded in.
Game 2 I assemble the combo by the end of turn 3 and he scoops to it shortly after.
Game 3 was a long and grindy game but eventually I used Abrupt Decay on his Stony Silence and made enough thopters for lethal the next turn.
Round 2: U-Tron
Game 1 he spell pierces my turn 2 and turn 3 thopter foundry’s before natural drawing into tron on turn 4 and casting Sundering Titan. I managed to get the combo together but not before he mindslavered me. I lose.
Again I board out all of my removal for cards that did more.
Game 2: I squeeze a Tezzeret into play and proceed to kill him with 5/5 creatures.
Game 3: More of game 2 but he used up all of his counter magic on the combo before Tezzeret slammed the door shut.
Round 3: Naya Scapeshift
Game 1: T3 BBE into T4 BBE into Primeval Titan. I died.
I’m not super well equipped for this deck but I bring in cards that can destroy a stony silence as well as more needles because he had a wide array of planeswalkers.
Game 2: I get the combo and he plays rest in peace immediately after. I lock the board up with Ensnaring Bridge, 2x Welding Jar, Witchbane Orb and needles. He draws Stony Silence into Abrade before I can find an Abrupt Decay and I am unable to protect my bridge with Welding Jars and lose.
Round 4: Dredge
I mulligan to 4 and he keeps 6. His hand does nothing expect cast dredge creatures and I assemble the combo by turn 5 to take the win.
Board out every card that does nothing for cards that have minimal but more impact.
T1 Nihil Spellbomb into T2 Whir for Grafdigger’s cage since I was already holding the combo. My hand was absurd and I take an easy 2-0 victory.
Round 5: Affinity
He has a slow hand I have a ton of removal. I buy enough time to set up the combo and he concedes.
KEEP my removal but board out most of the top of my curve. I cut 1 Tezzeret, 2 Whir of Invention in addition to the irrelevant pieces in this match.
I have some removal followed by Ensnaring Bridge into Tezzeret. He is unable to beat Tezzeret and eventually loses to Tezzeret ultimate.
Before round 6 I think I can draw into top 8 but players better than me explain that if I draw I have about a 1/3 chance of not making it in. My opponent overhears and learns that he will then have a 2/3 chance of not making it in if we draw. Eventually we decide on playing it out.
Round 6: Jeskai Control
I have played against this player before and know the matchup is incredibly favorable for me. However during game 1 see over 45 cards (he almost decked) and find zero Sword of the Meek and only one Whir of Invention which gets countered while I have all 4 Thopter Foundry in play. I lose game one with less than 20 minutes left in the round.
Board out all of my removal for cards that interact.
WE trade resources for a while before I find a Window to get Tezzeret onto the table. My opponent was able to deal with it but by then I had already found the combo and began killing him.
Game 3 starts with less than 8 minutes on the clock. Again I have turn 2 Thopter Foundry but I don’t find the Sword of the Meek until my last turn of turns. I ate my entire board with thopter foundry to stay alive and block long enough to get the draw.
The way things worked out I now have a 50/50 chance of making 8th seed instead of winning and getting 1st seed. Luckily the breakers fall my way and I make into top 8.
Quarterfinals: Ad Nausem
Game 1 I quickly assemble to the combo and strip my opponents Ad Nausem. I think I have won and he draws one off the top to kill me just in time.
Cut all the removal and bring in the extra Dampning Sphere as well as needles and abrupt decays.
I assemble the combo and tutor a Dampening Sphere into play. He can’t combo off through it in time and I win.
Game 3. Spoiler. I punted. We get into this position where I have made it so he can’t win through lightning storm and has to win with laboratory maniac. I have the combo online, Dampning Sphere in play and Tezzeret ready to ultimate. My opponent has Phyrexian Unlife in play and about 10 life. I consult with a Judge to ask how Tezzeret's ultimate interacts with Phyrexian Unlife and his response was “Your opponent will lose all of their life and be at zero life”. For whatever reason I took this as confirmation that Tezzeret ultimate would kill my opponent through Phyrexian Unlife so I attacked for 3 then -4 Tezzeret. Now I learn that he isn’t dead and I need to keep playing. Next turn I am able to attack for 7 poison damage but then he has just enough mana to kill me through the Dampning Sphere. Had I used Tezzeret's Ultimate, then attacked I would have gotten the 3 additional poison I needed to win the game. It feels bad but it was a valuable lesson. I know judges aren’t allowed to help in any way but I sure wish there was a way of answering the question you are asking while being less cryptic. Next time I’ll have to be more specific and double check everything before I proceed.
I know people here have been talking about cutting Tezzerets again and I just don't see it. Tezzeret put the game on his back carried me to victory multiple times throughout the tournament today and I will absolutely be keeping my configuration of 2+1.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
It is extremely rare for tezz to win a game one that thoptersword would not have won anyways, while he can absolutely lose you game ones by rotting in your hand and/or making your bridge too slow.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Biggest difference is the quality of 1-drops. Brainstorm and ponder are obvious, but I went with a 4 entomb build (with sword and souls as the only targets). Also, needle is a great main deck 1-drop, as there are almost always targets like wasteland and vial. Having quality, relevant 1-drops is the biggest noticable difference between the legacy/modern versions. I think that's why discard is what I've arrived at as being the best overall 1-drops we can use right now. I'd love it if they printed a card like the new 1-drop foundry for commander 2018, but for modern.
Second biggest difference seems to be transmute artifact. Having access to 4 thopter foundry, 4 whir, and some number of a second tutor (transmute) that puts stuff directly into play is huge. The level of consistency that the deck can (attempt through countermagic) is really insane, and something we keep striving for in the modern version.
On the other hand, a card like baleful strix is really only just OK. I'm not sure it would actually make the cut in aggressive modern, I'd rather always just play more bridges I think. The removal isn't really any better, either.
So, just to sum up, I feel like this deck has a lot of the tools it needs, but absolutely could use a quality 1-drop that's useful in the modern meta. A second good tutor would go a long way, as well.
Also if you are already Esper and playing Transmute Artifact you should try out 1 Breya, Etherium Shaper. Especially if you have Mox Diamond or some other way of fixing the red when you draw it. The card is an absolute HOUSE against the grindy strategies.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
3 Serum Visions
3 Fatal Push
3 Collective Brutality
4 Whir of Invention
Planeswalkers
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Artifacts
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
2 Welding Jar
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Damping Sphere
1 Time Sieve
3 Sword of the Meek
4 Thopter Foundry
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
2 Spire of Industry
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
1x Pithing Needle
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Torpor Orb
1x Spellskite
1x Witchbane Orb
2x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Damnation
1x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1x Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1x Herald of Anguish
Notes about my deck:
I played in an IQ the week prior and had a medium time despite seeing all relatively good matchups. The plus side was that I was able to see that most of the local players in my old hometown were either on a creature deck or blue decks to combat everyone else. There were some combo players, but the good news was that the usual suspects (namely TRON) was at an all-time low. With the recent resurgence of these BridgeVine decks surfacing, plus the other people who maybe have taken a break from modern for a bit (like me) and are just dusting off the decks that were undisputed kings of the format (like Hollow One), this only helped further my decision to run it back and make some tweaks based on what everyone else has been doing while I've been "Out Of Office" lol. I took Trav's suggestion to cut Search for Azcanta for Damping Sphere main, Racing 089's suggestion of the 2/1 Split of Tezzeret, cut Bottled Cloister for second Damnation in the board, and tried playing 3 Fatal Push main (cut a Serum Visions to make room/keep tempo lines in tact). I tuned my list for a creature meta and here we are.
R1 - UW Control
G1: This matchup is def favored before all the hate comes in (they have so many dead cards in their 75). I do have to admit that even though I was ahead, I got a little lucky with a really good turn of EOT Whir (He tapped out for Cryptic) and I topdecked Thopter Foundry next turn anyway (this is part of the reason I cut the Prisms/Talismans back during testing in the Spring - Topdeck equity/impact density).
G2: He sees all the hate and out tempos me with snaps and cheap counterspells.
G3: I get to play Thopter Foundry after his turn 1 tapped Colonnade, which puts him on the back foot for the rest of the match. Waiting to line up turns of EOT Whir into main phase threat against blue decks is so hard for them to beat.
Sidenote: It's funny because about 1 year ago I was on the exact opposite side of this matchup at an IQ (though I had splashed red for the Saheeli Combo). It was my only loss of the comp but it wasn't even close - which started getting me excited to come back to Tez in the first place.
R2 - Martyr Proc
G1: It's been a while since I've seen this deck, but Pithing Needle on Martyr plus Early Bridge gave me all the time in the world to find the combo.
G2: He squeezes a win out of me by getting a big early hit with a pumped Serra Ascendant, then played a bunch of 1/x's to get under bridge (I kept drawing into land with a land already in hand, really missed bottled cloister here lol).
G3: The guy plays turn 1 Hex Parasite?! Luckily I get to needle it before Bridge into Tez, then I start gaining incremental value by forcing him to swing while he can at Tez while I have a 5/5, then Gaining value from Herald of Anguish (dude kept in Path AND drew it right away - but he had to discard a Stony in order to keep the path). Thopter Sword eventually wins.
R3 - Grixis DS
G1: This matchup is close, but it's been getting better because affinity has been at a low and is also already bad to their cheap interaction, and hand disruption/stubborn denial plus cheap clocks are already enough to beat decks like KCI - so they're going down to 0-1 K command main. I slam a bridge while he puts the shileds down and he admists this is the case and conceded.
G2: I fight through 3-4 IOK/Thoughtseizes but that means the rest of his hand is less explosive/reactive to my removal spells. I get Thopter Sword online and he dies.
R4/5 - ID into Top 8
Quarterfinals - Humans
G1: Get an early bridge and win. Feeling super good because the other decks left in the Top 8 are Burn (beat Humans fast), Elves (beat Ponza - the only ancient grudge deck in the Top 8), and Hollow one was up a game against Grixis DS.
G2: I keep an ok hand, but he's on the play and has an insanely fast hand. To make matters worse, I only draw into the 2 Tez I kept in and lands.
G3: My hand has 2 lands, Foundry, Whir, Mox, Bauble, and Maelstrom Pulse. He get a turn 2 Freebooter to take my whir. I draw into sword but never see another land unfortunately and felt I had to use pulse on Freebooter while I could (cuz getting Torpor Orb buys me a ton of time. He draws into Meedling Mage, Gaddock Teeg, and Kitaki and essentially locks the prison deck out of the game.
I'm pretty sold on about 70 of my 75, but I have to admit that I missed Bottled Cloister a couple times. Not sure I wanted the second Damnation despite seeing so many creature decks. I would have rather had more cheap removal spells if anything but i think 3 Push + 3 brutality is already pushing the amount of 1-for-1 trades I'd like in my 75.