I just don't see what situation I really like this in ... maybe out of the board against control it can help to get some value while your stuff gets countered?
EDIT: Also, was wondering if people had ever playtested with Disciple of the Vault? Seems like it could be interesting out of the board against the decks that can really stall us out ( supreme verdicts, settle the wreckage, etc. ). maybe blasting station is better since it hits more targets + is fetchable ?
I think Alpine Moon significantly upticks our deck in the meta. I’ve said it before that until we have good answers to big mana/valakut this deck can’t compete. When I look at the meta I think we now have good game against everything.
I think the future build for me is somewhere in the Meltiin list with whir and combo, that would be a pretty nice little spot in this meta assuming no new insane decks.
I think the master thopterist is very very very good. I was running paradoxical outcome/monastery mentor and this basically combines those two concepts. I would bring this in aganst Humans, Mardu, Goblin Lore, GDS, Jeskai Control, Jund, Abzan - this card is very very very good.
And his sac ability - imagine a boardstate where they have a stony. You cast a mishra’s bauble, get two artifacts in play and now have an extra draw toward your abrupt or maelstrom. This card is the tireless tracker slot we definitely need to compete games 2 and 3
Edit: honestly he’s so good there may be a way to configure the deck with paradoxical and have him MB.
So just finished watching the match. There wasn't much else I could have done differently I think. I really was hurting for a sword or whir and never saw them game 2. Outside of that, missing my bauble trigger probably doesn't help. However, since I knew he couldn't combo me I should have played safe with thopter and tezz and dug for sword instead. Game 3 I should have just mulled but I think I saw 9 lands to 4 cards so what can you do.
Regarding my main deck: Digging is just not something I want to do in games these days as decks win the game too quickly. I'd rather road-block the super aggro with removal to get combo online. Everyone expected burn and Tron going into this tournament and both were there, although I avoided Tron luckily. The Push/Brutality were excellent most of the day although moving forward i'd probably switch a push to a CB. SFA was unnecessary all weekend and is probably getting the cut for Damping Sphere which overperformed for me and is something I think is maindeck worthy right now (Locks KCI with Needle backup). I'm not a fan of Inq/TS because they are less effective against most of the top 10 decks maindeck. I would consider a reshape in the main as well.
Sideboard: I looked at the top 15 decklists and saw maybe 1 list with Stony silence (jeskai, 1 copy). So I felt very comfortable cutting an AD and just running 1 AD 1 Pulse. Battle overperformed all weekend long but I don't think I ever want 2. Tezz was always wanted post-board but never main-board and I think 2 is right. Damnation seems to be too slow these days and I hardly ever brought it in. Torpor Orb and Damping sphere are must haves right now. 3xTS and Surg were my attempt to add SB that hit Tron/KCI/Storm/Control. I'm not sure if this is the best way in execution but I need to test some more. I might consider Slaughter Games instead. Regarding Control, that match-up has gotten much worse since Teferi can bounce our permanents and the deck is getting very popular. Altar is a little janky I will admit, but can be good in the right matchups. It's basically a concession to me wanting an out to lantern (infinite mill) while also ok against KCI, Adnauseam, and Control specifically. CB overperformed all weekend and I would never want less than 3 going to a big tournament (where people actually play burn). I might go 3 main 1 side. Spellskite is a card I just always seem to want when I don't have it so it must stay for now.
Long story short other than the damping sphere for SFA I'm really happy with my maindeck configuration in an open field. The sideboard needs some work to address Control, KCI, and always Tron. I'll keep testing the TS/Surgical split to see where that goes. I'm higher on CB than most people here it seems but Burn is not an easy matchup (turn 3 combo on the draw is often too slow) and will always be there at big tourneys. The difference between FNM burn players and Grand prix burn players is considerable.
Super cool hearing LSV (my personal favorite) commenting on me play; I'll ignore the bauble joke but share this gem, "Spellskite is a bandaid for when you get hit by a chainsaw."
That is so sick. Congratulations man! It does seem like in a tron/turbo aggro world we could find ourselves to be a great meta foil.
I’ve been playing the UR prison deck a lot, but I added surgcals to pair with GQ and it’s significantly upped my game against Tron. I don’t know Nass’ build but Brutality/Push a scrap trawler and surgical it and the game is virtually over. I know the main lights out vs them is stony but alas!
@Trav34 - About digging cards like visions - I think in an expected meta full of burn and other red decks like pyromancer and hollow one, that you can cut digging spells for stuff like push and a suite of 1 cmc yard hosers like you have, Trav. I think if you find yourself matched up against more Jund and GDS, basically decks with 6+ discard spells, the digging cards are going to help you find replacement combo pieces. They'll also help you get your removal for stony and rip when those matchups come along. I personally, having played a ton online where there's no tournament meta gaming going on, prefer digging spells against a more open field.
I agree about Search for Azcanta. It's been in my list for the last 4 leagues or so, and I'm just not activating the land hardly at all. And often when I flip it, my opponents' fields of ruin suddenly have a worthwhile target. Damping sphere in the main has proven itself for me - hell, I won a match vs U Tron a few days ago thanks to it.
@boomforest - I like your optimism about Sai. I think he could be good. I'm not sure we run enough 0 CMC cards that would be around by the time we play both Sai and Paradoxical Outcome, however. Because usually get cracked by that point. Maybe Repeal? It gets you a "free" thopter with a mox opal, while providing board interaction.
@the_nobodys I’m going to test a build in the next few days with my group that is going to try to create a link between some aspects of the Elsik blue robots, Sai and Thopter Sword. I’ll keep you posted.
Zac if you’re lurking I’d love to hear your thoughts on the feasibility.
Isn’t grand architect/sword/foundry an infinite combo(?!?)
It isn't and it actually stops the combo: the thopters are blue, so they get pumped by Architect and Sword is unable to come back as it doesn't see any 1/1 entering the battlefield
In my extremely limited amount of time researching this deck, it seems like often it can end up in topdeck mode in the lategame. Artifice Master's effective Draw 2 ability might prove useful in that case?
Agreed, I don’t have the most experience either but I was just exploring the idea of adding back Jace, or search for azcanta for that reason. I think new Tez could be playable as a 1 or 2 of. The average Mana cost isn’t too high so you will probably still be safe behind the bridge after drawing 2 of you need to find pieces for the combo.
It's weird, because the new Tezz is a strong walker, but not a particularly good walker for a thopter/sword deck. Actually, his +1 is good for our deck because it helps protect him and the tokens fly under a bridge as we all know.
His 0 is obviously good... we would usually get to draw 2. Maybe I'm coming around on him a little the more I think about it. But he doesn't help us race decks like Tron which AoB does, so new Tezz would have a much different role. He'd be a grindier card, which we don't have much of a need for really. He'd be good against Jund, so maybe as a 1-of in the board next to Padeem.
He's meant for a different build than what we usually discuss here. 5 mana is the end of the world, even 4 mana is so expensive that I don't know if anybody dares to run 4 Tezz anymore (I've been down to 2-3 since 2016). 4-cmc SB win cons are already awkward to play, so 5 mana : not for me.
When we have a Bridge, we don't want to draw 3 cards a turn, because we can't cast them all. How many times did you guys decline finding an artifact with Agent of Bolas's +1 ability while there was something to pick up ? I remember I did it quite often.
Also he makes a 1/1 token... Yeah it reminds me of Sorin PWs in BW tokens, and why that archetype is not good enough.
All in all, the thing that strikes me is that it doesn't help the archetype's bad MUs at all. Not more than Agent of Bolas. Not more than Teferi.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
In my extremely limited amount of time researching this deck, it seems like often it can end up in topdeck mode in the lategame. Artifice Master's effective Draw 2 ability might prove useful in that case?
I think late game we're usually looking for specific artifact bullets if we actually need anything. Looking at the top 5 just seems better in all scenarios. The new Tezzeret's just seem bad, I'd rather play Seeker if I want a 5 CMC + walker.
Sai actually seems very good in the control matchup post-board. Our control matchup is OK, but it's pretty dependent on having whir of invention to end-step tap them out.
I have been testing a build that was pretty mediocre but the new Tezzeret fits into it perfectly and may make the idea more viable. Draw 2 is SUPER powerful. I know the plus is underwhelming and the mana cost is a bit steep but draw 2 is absurd on a planeswalker. If it lives one turn you cast opportunity and a fog. This is very nearly the floor of the card unless they have an overwhelming board state the turn you play it.
The idea I have been playing with is as few artifacts as possible, 4x Thirst for Knowledge and more control cards like Fatal Push/Cast Down/Damnation. AoB felt really out of place in the deck and I was playing just a worse control deck. However this new planeswalker could be incredible. You are likely to look at 5 new cards before putting together a plan to protect him. IF you do protect him you will win soon after, burying the opponent in cards. IF you don't protect him you are plus 3 cards. Seems fantastic but won't work in an Ensnaring Bridge deck.
Builds playing 4x Darksteel Citadel and largely mono-blue outside of splashing for the combo seem like a natural home. I know there is a very real chance this card is bad for modern, but I plan to test it extensively before giving up on it.
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IDK I Run 3 agent of bolas and I’m typically killing my opponents with his -4 before I ever take them out with thopters. AOB gives you this additional win con u need when people go crazy against the combo
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EDIT: Also, was wondering if people had ever playtested with Disciple of the Vault? Seems like it could be interesting out of the board against the decks that can really stall us out ( supreme verdicts, settle the wreckage, etc. ). maybe blasting station is better since it hits more targets + is fetchable ?
I think the future build for me is somewhere in the Meltiin list with whir and combo, that would be a pretty nice little spot in this meta assuming no new insane decks.
I think the master thopterist is very very very good. I was running paradoxical outcome/monastery mentor and this basically combines those two concepts. I would bring this in aganst Humans, Mardu, Goblin Lore, GDS, Jeskai Control, Jund, Abzan - this card is very very very good.
And his sac ability - imagine a boardstate where they have a stony. You cast a mishra’s bauble, get two artifacts in play and now have an extra draw toward your abrupt or maelstrom. This card is the tireless tracker slot we definitely need to compete games 2 and 3
Edit: honestly he’s so good there may be a way to configure the deck with paradoxical and have him MB.
Regarding my main deck: Digging is just not something I want to do in games these days as decks win the game too quickly. I'd rather road-block the super aggro with removal to get combo online. Everyone expected burn and Tron going into this tournament and both were there, although I avoided Tron luckily. The Push/Brutality were excellent most of the day although moving forward i'd probably switch a push to a CB. SFA was unnecessary all weekend and is probably getting the cut for Damping Sphere which overperformed for me and is something I think is maindeck worthy right now (Locks KCI with Needle backup). I'm not a fan of Inq/TS because they are less effective against most of the top 10 decks maindeck. I would consider a reshape in the main as well.
Sideboard: I looked at the top 15 decklists and saw maybe 1 list with Stony silence (jeskai, 1 copy). So I felt very comfortable cutting an AD and just running 1 AD 1 Pulse. Battle overperformed all weekend long but I don't think I ever want 2. Tezz was always wanted post-board but never main-board and I think 2 is right. Damnation seems to be too slow these days and I hardly ever brought it in. Torpor Orb and Damping sphere are must haves right now. 3xTS and Surg were my attempt to add SB that hit Tron/KCI/Storm/Control. I'm not sure if this is the best way in execution but I need to test some more. I might consider Slaughter Games instead. Regarding Control, that match-up has gotten much worse since Teferi can bounce our permanents and the deck is getting very popular. Altar is a little janky I will admit, but can be good in the right matchups. It's basically a concession to me wanting an out to lantern (infinite mill) while also ok against KCI, Adnauseam, and Control specifically. CB overperformed all weekend and I would never want less than 3 going to a big tournament (where people actually play burn). I might go 3 main 1 side. Spellskite is a card I just always seem to want when I don't have it so it must stay for now.
Long story short other than the damping sphere for SFA I'm really happy with my maindeck configuration in an open field. The sideboard needs some work to address Control, KCI, and always Tron. I'll keep testing the TS/Surgical split to see where that goes. I'm higher on CB than most people here it seems but Burn is not an easy matchup (turn 3 combo on the draw is often too slow) and will always be there at big tourneys. The difference between FNM burn players and Grand prix burn players is considerable.
Super cool hearing LSV (my personal favorite) commenting on me play; I'll ignore the bauble joke but share this gem, "Spellskite is a bandaid for when you get hit by a chainsaw."
I’ve been playing the UR prison deck a lot, but I added surgcals to pair with GQ and it’s significantly upped my game against Tron. I don’t know Nass’ build but Brutality/Push a scrap trawler and surgical it and the game is virtually over. I know the main lights out vs them is stony but alas!
Congratulations again!
I agree about Search for Azcanta. It's been in my list for the last 4 leagues or so, and I'm just not activating the land hardly at all. And often when I flip it, my opponents' fields of ruin suddenly have a worthwhile target. Damping sphere in the main has proven itself for me - hell, I won a match vs U Tron a few days ago thanks to it.
@boomforest - I like your optimism about Sai. I think he could be good. I'm not sure we run enough 0 CMC cards that would be around by the time we play both Sai and Paradoxical Outcome, however. Because usually get cracked by that point. Maybe Repeal? It gets you a "free" thopter with a mox opal, while providing board interaction.
Zac if you’re lurking I’d love to hear your thoughts on the feasibility.
Isn’t grand architect/sword/foundry an infinite combo(?!?)
In my extremely limited amount of time researching this deck, it seems like often it can end up in topdeck mode in the lategame. Artifice Master's effective Draw 2 ability might prove useful in that case?
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His 0 is obviously good... we would usually get to draw 2. Maybe I'm coming around on him a little the more I think about it. But he doesn't help us race decks like Tron which AoB does, so new Tezz would have a much different role. He'd be a grindier card, which we don't have much of a need for really. He'd be good against Jund, so maybe as a 1-of in the board next to Padeem.
When we have a Bridge, we don't want to draw 3 cards a turn, because we can't cast them all. How many times did you guys decline finding an artifact with Agent of Bolas's +1 ability while there was something to pick up ? I remember I did it quite often.
Also he makes a 1/1 token... Yeah it reminds me of Sorin PWs in BW tokens, and why that archetype is not good enough.
All in all, the thing that strikes me is that it doesn't help the archetype's bad MUs at all. Not more than Agent of Bolas. Not more than Teferi.
I will be playing it in Standard though.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
I think late game we're usually looking for specific artifact bullets if we actually need anything. Looking at the top 5 just seems better in all scenarios. The new Tezzeret's just seem bad, I'd rather play Seeker if I want a 5 CMC + walker.
Sai actually seems very good in the control matchup post-board. Our control matchup is OK, but it's pretty dependent on having whir of invention to end-step tap them out.
The double negation lost me.
Sorry! Tez Seeker >>>>>>> New Tez and still not playable.
The idea I have been playing with is as few artifacts as possible, 4x Thirst for Knowledge and more control cards like Fatal Push/Cast Down/Damnation. AoB felt really out of place in the deck and I was playing just a worse control deck. However this new planeswalker could be incredible. You are likely to look at 5 new cards before putting together a plan to protect him. IF you do protect him you will win soon after, burying the opponent in cards. IF you don't protect him you are plus 3 cards. Seems fantastic but won't work in an Ensnaring Bridge deck.
Builds playing 4x Darksteel Citadel and largely mono-blue outside of splashing for the combo seem like a natural home. I know there is a very real chance this card is bad for modern, but I plan to test it extensively before giving up on it.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
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