I believe we actually do. The cost of running at least 4 Polluted Delta is very low. What does your manabase look like otherwise ?
@headminerve, I thought the same thing... I'm running 4 x Polluted Delta's and 2 x Misty Rainforest (although I've seen many lists running 2x Tarns or Strands in place of the Misty's i run)
Ok so now I remember how I was approaching SB games a year ago (forced to check my own posts from the past !).
I used to have Thought-Knot Seer at some point (VS Tron and creatureless combos, so now that I want to sneak in Zahid, it doesn't surprise me.
From there I may consider testing The Antiquities War as well. The card is slow as hell but when the 3rd counter appears, it should be a one-shot right ? Might actually be better and more flexible to set up in case of a Bridge we must play to stop Tron's creatures, then sac for the alpha strike. At least it wins on the spot where Zahid is even slower.
Add that several copies don't get stuck in hand and offer multiple alpha strikes... Yeah I think I'm sold !
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Chiming in on the fetch lands discussion and some help for HiltonMode at the same time. You don't NEED fetches in your deck, and as a matter of fact I didn't run fetches for a long time but then the deck evolved and now we should and I HIGHLY recommend that you do run fetches. Here is a short list of why you should play fetches in this particular deck (given the history of modern you need to have a VERY convincing argument NOT to run fetch lands anyway).
- What If I told you they printed Opt but it was an artifact that costed 0 mana? This is very close to what Mishra's Bauble + Fetch land is in our deck.
- JTMS. 0. Brainstorm. Shuffle away the bad cards. Jace loses a lot of his power without a large number of ways to shuffle.
- 3+ Color Spalshes. We have accesses to Glimmervoid and Spire of Industry but for a variety or reasons I don't like Glimmervoid and 4 Rainbow lands isn't enough to run a third coloe unless you have 4x Mox Opal and 4x Pentad Prism. Fetches make this incredibly easy.
- Ever stared down an opposing Blood Moon? Becomes a miserable card to beat without the ability to fetch out basics. Rocks help, but it still isn't enough if you have 19 mountains in your deck when you want to cast Whir of Invention.
- Serum Visions manipulation. This is a small edge but it matters more when you have a deck full of silver bullets. Example: You are in the blind when you cast a Serum Visions and you see a Pithing Needle on top. You can leave it there and gather more information on your opponents turn before deciding if you want to keep it or fetch it away. If you are against affinity or tron you are super happy to draw it. Paired against burn? shuffle it away. Against burn you can even shuffle it away before Goblin Guide attacks for even more value. Small edges I know, but they add up.
These are reasons THIS deck should run fetches but there is a much longer list of reasons why you should just run fetches in every deck anyway. Even Momo red burn in Legacy will play fetches on occasion lol.
So a manabase for board the Weatherlight HiltonMode? I think this card is going to be at it's best in a non-tezzeret thopter-sword deck but If I were going to play it in tezzerator my mana would look something like this:
4x Spire of Industry
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Watery Grave
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains (Maybe? Idk how many other white cards you plan on playing. If only playing Board the Weatherlight make this an Island or Hallowed Fountain)
1x Academy Ruins
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Invnetor's Fair
Minimum 2x Mox Opal
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U/B Tezzeret Control
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
I've started logging my matches to see some stats. so far in the last week and a half or so I've been recording I'm 15-3, which ain't too bad. 2 4-1s in leagues, 3-0 at my LGS, that league 5-0 is still elusive.
I've found my post board winrate is higher than my preboard winrate so far. I win 95% of the time a resolve a tezz, and a resolve a tezz 77% of the time I draw one. Jace wins 67% of the time he resolves, but I only resolve Jace 46% of the time I draw one. I've only lost once after I've untapped with an active thopter sword combo on the board out of 29 times I've untapped with it. Only lost twice out 46 games played due to not being able to empty my hand while a bridge was out. I've only had a Stony Silence played against me once, and a Rest In Peace/Leyline of the Void twice (one of those times was also the game with Stony Silence), and I won both those games where one of those cards hit the field. So far I've only actually got a mox opal online turn 1 three times, but I've won all three of those games. Also played against 16 different decks (Blue Moon and Jund being the only duplicates so far)
Anyway, I find the stats interesting, though the sample size is still pretty low, so we'll see how it goes over more time
With hearty back slaps and smiles a'plenty, I am dropping in to say a very brief hello to a group of deck developers that I hold in high esteem. It is a hello from an old friend.
I've put up a couple hundred posts within this thread in years past. Notably, I've had many spirited exchanges with the "ambassador of tezzeret, agent of bolas" Radouf.
Clarification on an earlier post: In the 2nd round of the PTQ at Hartford, Grand Prix, I was the cat that Dustycrumbz faced, not Racing089. He was an exemplary opponent - good laughs. If I find the time to take a break from my mono-red prison deck, Pyro Prison, I'll be back here.
Why wouldn't I return? Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is the single greatest card in the pantheon of Magic, The Gathering.
Clarification on an earlier post: In the 2nd round of the PTQ at Hartford, Grand Prix, I was the cat that Dustycrumbz faced, not Racing089. He was an exemplary opponent - good laughs. If I find the time to take a break from my mono-red prison deck, Pyro Prison, I'll be back here.
Even if I was dead and someone propped me up weekend at bernies style I would still find a way not to not cast blood moon from the grave.
I have been testing sultai midrange lately lol.
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Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
With hearty back slaps and smiles a'plenty, I am dropping in to say a very brief hello to a group of deck developers that I hold in high esteem. It is a hello from an old friend.
I've put up a couple hundred posts within this thread in years past. Notably, I've had many spirited exchanges with the "ambassador of tezzeret, agent of bolas" Radouf.
Clarification on an earlier post: In the 2nd round of the PTQ at Hartford, Grand Prix, I was the cat that Dustycrumbz faced, not Racing089. He was an exemplary opponent - good laughs. If I find the time to take a break from my mono-red prison deck, Pyro Prison, I'll be back here.
Why wouldn't I return? Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is the single greatest card in the pantheon of Magic, The Gathering.
Ah! Now all makes sense.
Hello, Ole’ Ray! How you been. ::)
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Navigator's Compass let me keep a hand of Citadel/Spire, and later sacced to Slobad to keep a Revoker alive. Obviously this card is a little meta dependant, but I do foresee a lot of burn and hollow one in the new meta. Board the weatherlight felt really sweet every time I cast it, looking forward to more testing. Damping sphere only came down once after tron hit and he cast some smashers, but it kept him off of ulamog mana at least.
How is Teferi in the board? It seems like we have better things to be doing than casting Teferi most of the time.
Also, with all the legendary creatures in the side, and Tezz in the main, has anyone tried running a 2x Mox Amber? I could see it being useful in activating opal, it can still be tapped for improvise, can be sacced to foundry/slobad when needed, etc.
How is Teferi in the board? It seems like we have better things to be doing than casting Teferi most of the time.
Also, with all the legendary creatures in the side, and Tezz in the main, has anyone tried running a 2x Mox Amber? I could see it being useful in activating opal, it can still be tapped for improvise, can be sacced to foundry/slobad when needed, etc.
Teferi in the side answers stony silence and the like, while threatening to win behind a bridge (acting as an alternate wincon). Ideally, you want your removal for artifact/enchants to serve two roles, so that your SB is more efficient - this is why abrupt decay is good, because you can bring it in for stony, and also against aggro where you need creature removal. Haven't had a chance to play with Teferi yet, but I've tested nahiri (for the same reason) in jeskai thopters and the repeatable removal is really nice. The fact that this form of removal is found off of Board the Weatherlight makes it even better.
I thought about Mox Amber, but I decided Talismans are probably better overall. My build is really high on the artifact count already, so opal doesn't really need the extra help so much.
The -3 on Teferi can deal with most things that mess us up (silence, needle, etc), and still hitting creatures. Jace can only hit creatures. Jace is also more likely to be hit by removal I feel, because JtMS is still scary to people (even though he’s not nearly as busted in modern as people think).
Also, I’ve been testing/playing the deck on xmage for a while, and am looking to buy it on paper, but what’s the chance of a mox opal reprinting this year? Cause half the deck price right now is in the moxes.
The -3 on Teferi can deal with most things that mess us up (silence, needle, etc), and still hitting creatures).
My point is you can't cast Teferi while there's a Stony on the bf because it shuts down Citadels, Prisms, Signets, Moxen and Talismans. Even a Grudge or Kommand can prevent us from casting high-cmc spells. 5 mana is something I never dared to play in this deck for a good reason. Jace is one less mana, which is more achievable, but still tough.
I quoted Jace because you said Teferi was a wincon behind a Bridge, which Jace is too. I think he's a better wincon than Teferi on paper, and if I want to get rid of Stony, I play things like Abrupt Decay.
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The -3 on Teferi can deal with most things that mess us up (silence, needle, etc), and still hitting creatures).
My point is you can't cast Teferi while there's a Stony on the bf because it shuts down Citadels, Prisms, Signets, Moxen and Talismans. Even a Grudge or Kommand can prevent us from casting high-cmc spells. 5 mana is something I never dared to play in this deck for a good reason. Jace is one less mana, which is more achievable, but still tough.
I quoted Jace because you said Teferi was a wincon behind a Bridge, which Jace is too. I think he's a better wincon than Teferi on paper, and if I want to get rid of Stony, I play things like Abrupt Decay.
I get your point that stony can potentially shut down some of your mana sources, making a 5 CMC spell hard to cast on turn 5. That's also true for cards like Tezz and Whir. But just to reiterate, you should stop comparing Teferi to Jace, when you should be comparing Teferi to something like Maelstrom Pulse. Teferi is a spell you can bring in out of the sideboard in grindy matchups where you're worried about permanents that hate on your main strategy, permanents like: Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void, Pithing Needle, Ensnaring Bridge, and Planeswalkers. The reason to run a card like Teferi here is because, in addition to being a repeatable-use answer to those types of cards, he can also, as a bonus, win you the game.
Decks that run stony silence typically don't have a fast clock. Most games when I'm facing down stony, I have all the time in the world to accumulate mana because I'm sitting behind a bridge. That's just how SB matches typically go with stony silence decks. In fact I just played a match against Grixis Pyromancer, who has a reasonable clock if they can get pyromancer down early enough, which he did, but I was still able to bridge-up at 8 life fairly easily. We were each just trying to topdeck a card that would bust the game open for us, (artifact removal), which he unfortunately drew first. We each had plenty of mana to cast whatever we drew, because the game had stalled for a while.
In a situation like this, I had the combo down and ready to deploy once stony was taken care of. But what if I didn't have the combo, and was instead only hiding behind a bridge? A topdecked Teferi would be better than a card like Maelstrom Pulse, because instead of just sending stony packing, he can tick up, draw us cards, and eventually win the game with his ultimate. In that way, he is a diverse card, acting as removal/card-advantage/win-con - but rememember, he would be treated as removal first and foremost when evaluating his SB spot.
But just to reiterate, you should stop comparing Teferi to Jace, when you should be comparing Teferi to something like Maelstrom Pulse.
I don't think anyone should do that. If I look at Teferi as a removal spell, then it's a very bad one in comparison to Maelstom Pulse or Abrupt Decay !
Decks that run stony silence typically don't have a fast clock
I can't verify comprehensively, but if I take a look at decks that run those cards (mtgtop8 since January), there's also fast decks and reasonably aggressive ones : Stony Silence : Elves, Bogles, Bant Coco, Copycat, D&T, Eld&T, Hatebear Rest in Peace : Affinity, Burn Pithing Needle : Eldrazi, Tron Ensnaring Bridge : Burn (not that they'd bring it in here) Leyline of the Void : Hollow One, Mardu Pyro
That's just how SB matches typically go with stony silence decks
Maybe that's not how it typically goes after all.
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I can see your point in teferi being too slow at 5. But rather than run JtMS, I would go Double on Nahiri. -2 hits Stony/Leyline, any creature post-swing, and can filter cards when needed. The -8 isn’t irrelevant either with all the artifacts, and can serve as an impromptu whir. I could see WR being a slight issue under stony, but if we run 4 spire and at least 3 glimmer along with the esper fast mana package, it shouldn’t be too back breaking. Abrupt and Pulse are very good at what they do, but I think overall Esper > Sultai because of Board the Weatherlight, and foundry’s hybrid mana.
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I believe we actually do. The cost of running at least 4 Polluted Delta is very low. What does your manabase look like otherwise ?
@headminerve, I thought the same thing... I'm running 4 x Polluted Delta's and 2 x Misty Rainforest (although I've seen many lists running 2x Tarns or Strands in place of the Misty's i run)
I used to have Thought-Knot Seer at some point (VS Tron and creatureless combos, so now that I want to sneak in Zahid, it doesn't surprise me.
From there I may consider testing The Antiquities War as well. The card is slow as hell but when the 3rd counter appears, it should be a one-shot right ? Might actually be better and more flexible to set up in case of a Bridge we must play to stop Tron's creatures, then sac for the alpha strike. At least it wins on the spot where Zahid is even slower.
Add that several copies don't get stuck in hand and offer multiple alpha strikes... Yeah I think I'm sold !
- What If I told you they printed Opt but it was an artifact that costed 0 mana? This is very close to what Mishra's Bauble + Fetch land is in our deck.
- JTMS. 0. Brainstorm. Shuffle away the bad cards. Jace loses a lot of his power without a large number of ways to shuffle.
- 3+ Color Spalshes. We have accesses to Glimmervoid and Spire of Industry but for a variety or reasons I don't like Glimmervoid and 4 Rainbow lands isn't enough to run a third coloe unless you have 4x Mox Opal and 4x Pentad Prism. Fetches make this incredibly easy.
- Ever stared down an opposing Blood Moon? Becomes a miserable card to beat without the ability to fetch out basics. Rocks help, but it still isn't enough if you have 19 mountains in your deck when you want to cast Whir of Invention.
- Serum Visions manipulation. This is a small edge but it matters more when you have a deck full of silver bullets. Example: You are in the blind when you cast a Serum Visions and you see a Pithing Needle on top. You can leave it there and gather more information on your opponents turn before deciding if you want to keep it or fetch it away. If you are against affinity or tron you are super happy to draw it. Paired against burn? shuffle it away. Against burn you can even shuffle it away before Goblin Guide attacks for even more value. Small edges I know, but they add up.
These are reasons THIS deck should run fetches but there is a much longer list of reasons why you should just run fetches in every deck anyway. Even Momo red burn in Legacy will play fetches on occasion lol.
So a manabase for board the Weatherlight HiltonMode? I think this card is going to be at it's best in a non-tezzeret thopter-sword deck but If I were going to play it in tezzerator my mana would look something like this:
4x Spire of Industry
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Watery Grave
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains (Maybe? Idk how many other white cards you plan on playing. If only playing Board the Weatherlight make this an Island or Hallowed Fountain)
1x Academy Ruins
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Invnetor's Fair
Minimum 2x Mox Opal
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
I've started logging my matches to see some stats. so far in the last week and a half or so I've been recording I'm 15-3, which ain't too bad. 2 4-1s in leagues, 3-0 at my LGS, that league 5-0 is still elusive.
I've found my post board winrate is higher than my preboard winrate so far. I win 95% of the time a resolve a tezz, and a resolve a tezz 77% of the time I draw one. Jace wins 67% of the time he resolves, but I only resolve Jace 46% of the time I draw one. I've only lost once after I've untapped with an active thopter sword combo on the board out of 29 times I've untapped with it. Only lost twice out 46 games played due to not being able to empty my hand while a bridge was out. I've only had a Stony Silence played against me once, and a Rest In Peace/Leyline of the Void twice (one of those times was also the game with Stony Silence), and I won both those games where one of those cards hit the field. So far I've only actually got a mox opal online turn 1 three times, but I've won all three of those games. Also played against 16 different decks (Blue Moon and Jund being the only duplicates so far)
Anyway, I find the stats interesting, though the sample size is still pretty low, so we'll see how it goes over more time
This is my pre-Dominaria list
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Artifacts (30)
4 Thopter Foundry
3 Sword of the Meek
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Welding Jar
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Expedition Map
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Time Sieve
2 Collective Brutality
4 Whir of Invention
Lands (21)
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Darksteel Citadel
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Spire of Industry
1 Glimmervoid
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Academy Ruins
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Pithing Needle
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Defense Grid
1 Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
2 Battle at the Bridge
1 Damnation
1 Sun Droplet
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Only real plans for post-DOM is to fit 1 Sphere main, and 2 in the side to start with.
I've put up a couple hundred posts within this thread in years past. Notably, I've had many spirited exchanges with the "ambassador of tezzeret, agent of bolas" Radouf.
Clarification on an earlier post: In the 2nd round of the PTQ at Hartford, Grand Prix, I was the cat that Dustycrumbz faced, not Racing089. He was an exemplary opponent - good laughs. If I find the time to take a break from my mono-red prison deck, Pyro Prison, I'll be back here.
Why wouldn't I return? Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is the single greatest card in the pantheon of Magic, The Gathering.
Even if I was dead and someone propped me up weekend at bernies style I would still find a way not to not cast blood moon from the grave.
I have been testing sultai midrange lately lol.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
Hello, Ole’ Ray! How you been. ::)
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Welding Jar
1 Pithing Needle
3 Navigator's Compass
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Damping Sphere
4 Thopter Foundry
3 Sword of the Meek
1 Time Sieve
2 Talisman of Dominance
3 Ensnaring Bridge
Other Spells: 11
3 Board the Weatherlight
1 Battle at the Bridge
4 Whir of Invention
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Academy Ruins
1 Field of Ruin
4 Seacrhome Coast
4 Spire of Industry
1 Glimmervoid
3 Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Plains
2 Detention Sphere
2 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
2 Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Battle at the Bridge
1 Damping Sphere
1 Lingering Souls
Navigator's Compass let me keep a hand of Citadel/Spire, and later sacced to Slobad to keep a Revoker alive. Obviously this card is a little meta dependant, but I do foresee a lot of burn and hollow one in the new meta. Board the weatherlight felt really sweet every time I cast it, looking forward to more testing. Damping sphere only came down once after tron hit and he cast some smashers, but it kept him off of ulamog mana at least.
Also, with all the legendary creatures in the side, and Tezz in the main, has anyone tried running a 2x Mox Amber? I could see it being useful in activating opal, it can still be tapped for improvise, can be sacced to foundry/slobad when needed, etc.
Teferi in the side answers stony silence and the like, while threatening to win behind a bridge (acting as an alternate wincon). Ideally, you want your removal for artifact/enchants to serve two roles, so that your SB is more efficient - this is why abrupt decay is good, because you can bring it in for stony, and also against aggro where you need creature removal. Haven't had a chance to play with Teferi yet, but I've tested nahiri (for the same reason) in jeskai thopters and the repeatable removal is really nice. The fact that this form of removal is found off of Board the Weatherlight makes it even better.
I thought about Mox Amber, but I decided Talismans are probably better overall. My build is really high on the artifact count already, so opal doesn't really need the extra help so much.
Also, I’ve been testing/playing the deck on xmage for a while, and am looking to buy it on paper, but what’s the chance of a mox opal reprinting this year? Cause half the deck price right now is in the moxes.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
My point is you can't cast Teferi while there's a Stony on the bf because it shuts down Citadels, Prisms, Signets, Moxen and Talismans. Even a Grudge or Kommand can prevent us from casting high-cmc spells. 5 mana is something I never dared to play in this deck for a good reason. Jace is one less mana, which is more achievable, but still tough.
I quoted Jace because you said Teferi was a wincon behind a Bridge, which Jace is too. I think he's a better wincon than Teferi on paper, and if I want to get rid of Stony, I play things like Abrupt Decay.
I get your point that stony can potentially shut down some of your mana sources, making a 5 CMC spell hard to cast on turn 5. That's also true for cards like Tezz and Whir. But just to reiterate, you should stop comparing Teferi to Jace, when you should be comparing Teferi to something like Maelstrom Pulse. Teferi is a spell you can bring in out of the sideboard in grindy matchups where you're worried about permanents that hate on your main strategy, permanents like: Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void, Pithing Needle, Ensnaring Bridge, and Planeswalkers. The reason to run a card like Teferi here is because, in addition to being a repeatable-use answer to those types of cards, he can also, as a bonus, win you the game.
Decks that run stony silence typically don't have a fast clock. Most games when I'm facing down stony, I have all the time in the world to accumulate mana because I'm sitting behind a bridge. That's just how SB matches typically go with stony silence decks. In fact I just played a match against Grixis Pyromancer, who has a reasonable clock if they can get pyromancer down early enough, which he did, but I was still able to bridge-up at 8 life fairly easily. We were each just trying to topdeck a card that would bust the game open for us, (artifact removal), which he unfortunately drew first. We each had plenty of mana to cast whatever we drew, because the game had stalled for a while.
In a situation like this, I had the combo down and ready to deploy once stony was taken care of. But what if I didn't have the combo, and was instead only hiding behind a bridge? A topdecked Teferi would be better than a card like Maelstrom Pulse, because instead of just sending stony packing, he can tick up, draw us cards, and eventually win the game with his ultimate. In that way, he is a diverse card, acting as removal/card-advantage/win-con - but rememember, he would be treated as removal first and foremost when evaluating his SB spot.
I don't think anyone should do that. If I look at Teferi as a removal spell, then it's a very bad one in comparison to Maelstom Pulse or Abrupt Decay !
I can't verify comprehensively, but if I take a look at decks that run those cards (mtgtop8 since January), there's also fast decks and reasonably aggressive ones :
Stony Silence : Elves, Bogles, Bant Coco, Copycat, D&T, Eld&T, Hatebear
Rest in Peace : Affinity, Burn
Pithing Needle : Eldrazi, Tron
Ensnaring Bridge : Burn (not that they'd bring it in here)
Leyline of the Void : Hollow One, Mardu Pyro
Maybe that's not how it typically goes after all.