Hi mates, i was reading the discussion about Bottle cloister, expedition map or damping sphere and i have a question : how many 1 off situational bullets can we include in our main board without being harmed by their density. I ask that because there is a lot of card that would be nice to have : ie pithing needle, damping sphere, nihil spellbomb, bottle cloister, map (to get academy ruins), kark clan ironwork, ect...
And for the Jace debate i'm pretty sure that it is not better than tezz in our deck. I personally run a really lowered PW count (2) and would not add jace before tezz 2 and 3.
Try to go with a lockdown version of Tezz then the strait turbo version. Basically I'm trying to combine that new blue artifact lockdown deck with Sword/Thopter for wincon. I tried to avoid one drops other then the Pithing Needle since I'm running Chalice of the Void.I'm also planning on splashing green for SB Abrupt Decay. Comments and suggests are welcomed.
@crssherman1990 : keep in mind that even if you’d run a couple more cmc-1 silver bullets, you can curve them out into t2 Chalice most times whereas other times you can get em on the field through chalice via Whir anyway. Just a tip.
@the_Nobodys : grats!! My experience with Defense grid has been good when Grixis Death’s Shadow was at its height, since they’re so low on mana and Stubborn Denial could break our game. However if they only had one (its the case most times), running an additional must-answer threat gives us a similar outcome. And a discard spell (including Brutality) holds a similar function, while often being way more versatile. This is what i noticed.
Hadn’t had a chance to resolve it much against UWx control though.
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
The main problem with this is the nature of counterspells: you want to get hellbent, yet you need to hold 2 cards (Shoal and blue) until your opponent plays relevant spell. And countering irrelevant spell just to discard seems very weak. Overal I feel this is not the place for the Shoal to shine.
EDIT: I actually went on Cockatrice and put it together, and most of the time, you sit behind bridge, you draw shoal you can't cast, you slowly die to 1/1s.
I think this says a lot about the bipolar nature of the deck. Thopter Sword lends itself to holding up mana and playing a control role. Bridge lends itself to going hellbent and trying to resolve a Tezz and/or Jace. It's hard to marry both sometimes. The white version running more path might be a way to cut Bridge to 1 copy while gaining the safety of 1 cmc Exile.
Also, played against the new Ponza deck yesterday and it felt rough. They don't care that much about Bridge because of Chandra and Tracker. Ancient Grudge is brutally efficient as always. 1x Shatterstorm is enough to break most board stalls. It's almost like making 5/5's and going aggressive is the only path to victory.
@crssherman1990 : keep in mind that even if you’d run a couple more cmc-1 silver bullets, you can curve them out into t2 Chalice most times whereas other times you can get em on the field through chalice via Whir anyway. Just a tip.
You have many extra copies from what we usually see MB. At first glance, Spyglass and Needle are redundant, we *usually* only see one MB as Whir act as copies 2 through 5. Second engineered explosives seems much, too, and third Bridge certainly isn't mandatory. Running 4/3 Thopter Foundry - Sword of the Meek would give you more natural combo and take pressure off those Whirs for more silver-bullet fetching, rather than combo searching. MB Spellbomb or Relic is a given for me, as they can completely hose strategies and cantrip at the very worst. Tormod's Crypt would be a zero-mana alternative. Graf's cage I like too, but you have to see where you gain % points from your Chalice plan and select the bullets to include MB accordingly.
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
After going 5-0, went 1-3 drop 1-3 drop. Lots of mana screw and nutty aggro draws from burn, br hollow one, and Thalia decks. F*ck Thalia. We certainoy have anti-aggro cards, and battle at the bridge is looking more and more appealing. It can actually be cast off of 1 mana under a thalia, which feels great.
@the nobodys: Battle at the Bridge should probably get more testing from us now that we lean so heavily on improvise anyway.
My record has been incredible as of late but Hollow One is consistently beating me. Every time I start putting together a good game Burning Inquiry destroys me on the spot. That and they have many ways to dig very deep to ancient grudges. I am not really sure if there is anything we can do. Sometimes we are just going to get got by that deck.
@the nobodys: What is your current configuration. I think I'm close to 15-0 vs hollow one. Definitely lose a game here and there, but I'm curious what is happening (yeah, I know R triply Hymn to Tourach is rough).
Elk, last game it went, game one: I play land + map, pass. He plays inquiry, takes my 3 lands and plays 2 hollow ones. I concede next turn with no land play. Game 2, I got the combo online and won. Game 3, he went turn 1 Hollow one, turn 2 Hollow one + Hollow one + Phoenix. I hold echoing truth, and wait for a 6 damage swing to connect so I can bounce all three of them on his endstep (and hopefully keep them off the board for a while). I believe I set myself up to whir for combo, but he gets 3 hollow ones next turn. When I whir for combo, the 1-2 blockers are not enough.
I'm on the U/r Prison / Tezz smashup that I've been playing recently (like 6 leagues total now). The list is a few posts up, only I cut 2 colorless lands, the repeals, and put a bunch of battles in the board. The crucible/map package hasn't been that much use these last few leagues because of all the aggro, so I may go back to a more traditional build. I am REALLY looking forward to trying Navigator's Compass now. Lifegain and mana fix for utily lands, please.
Edit - Got another 5-0! This time games against Martyr Proc, Bogles, Grixis Control, BR Hollow One, and Jund. Only game loss was to BR Hollow One where he went turn 2 stony, which just meant I drew an easy slate of matches where bridge dominates. 4 Battle at the Bridge, (1 main, 3 side) did work against hollow one. I cast back to back battles for x=4 and x=5 on his 2 hollow ones, then the next turn he cast burning inquiry to make his 3 flameblade adepts lethal, and I echoing truthed them in response, making him discard 2. It was the best.
@xatrith the short answer is that you can have as many bullets as you want. Longer answer is: the UR grindfather deck is basically a deck of all bullets 4 whir 4 bridge. You can find an answer to every strategy g1 in your deck. It's cool but the more you go down that route the more you have to be dedicated to playing long matches of mentally taxing magic. The thopter sword package lets you win more games, but you grow cold to a number of strategies. That's the great and elusive thing about whir decks, they're powerful but the final decisions on deckbuilding is like picking the octane of fuel for an engine - very reliant on what the field looks like to make the best decision.
I have to start by saying how much I love Japanese deck design. I just saw in the primer that Racing put a link to this guy who's been putting up perfect small tourneys all year with different tez builds and man. They are wildly different week to week and have really opened my eyes to how flexible we can be. Liar's Pendulum? An amazing card.
@booomforest this is the most true statement I've ever seen on the boards about this deck "...you have to be dedicated to playing long matches of mentally taxing magic". I modify my build quite often and love the deck due to the fact that it requires so much decision making but there really is no "right" build. Unlike other modern staples this deck requires the user to make decisions on card selection that fits their style. I love 2 Inkmoths now with 1 cranial plating as it steals games, as well as 1 torpor orb to snuff out the new human players (among snapcasters and others ETB). There is just no right builds out here just great suggestions all around on what "may" be a good fit for each of our play styles.
@jmelanson yes, sometimes I am stunned at Tezzeret's design beauty because the people that like to play him like decks full of little pieces that make lethal combinations. We're all tezzeret in real life hahahahaha! But I think my suspicions of the deck just being a really cool playground to try different things is confirmed by the Japanese player who changes his build 20-30 cards at a time and still has great success. I'm going to try to enjoy this deck as more of a design playground and less trying to "break" modern. The truth is if you break a format they ban your deck, and it's sad.
@catherine cook - List loks good, with the lantern/tezz smashup. I'd be a little worried about no answers, outside of discard, to stony silence, as well as the list being pretty land-light. 18 lands and 2 opals... I'd want 4 opals if you're playing only 18 lands. True lantern had a lowere cmc overall and runs more mana sources. Those are really the only two things that jump out at me that might be problematic.
@racing089:
Thanks a lot for that side guide - I used some of your side concepts and reaally works! you should be putting that gide in the primer!
I dont understand why you take out F.Push vs aff. seems superior to decay - but sure it has to have some logic behind...
Questions:
I've started with DisgruntledElk base which I like a lot. But I still left the 2 Jace, I really think it is a very good card in this deck just because of 2 reasons: we have discard and we have acceleration and jace by itslef is a good card. some says it does not have synergy with our deck. well I bleieve a
good card doesnt have to have synergy if it is a good card on its own. you play control and blue? then play jace
I've sometimes needed to make WhirToLand and this saved my ass sometimes. Don't you miss this path?
Are you really confortable playing only 2 Mox? At first I played 4, next tried 3 but what happens is that you want to see always 1 in hand/draw and the downside to draw multiples just doesn't seem to matter. So 4 seem the correct number.
Against Jund you are taking out proactive answers and putting in reactive ones. Why? I mean T.Seize is good against this archetype! why do you take it out? it takes D.C. lili, and lot of good stuff from them and provides a way to know how to develop the board. Ex.: if they are overloading on artifact ahte and type.
applying the logic about taking out mana rocks vs grindier games. I found this to be key, but we play 21 lands only and you seem to leave just 2 mox vs jeskay/control in general plus the fact you need to cast decay in here. you play total 5 mana rocks. are they enough? and only 2 Mox post boarding?
I found that the more mana rocks you play the more planeswalker you want to play also, when testing I found that Cage was a key card vs company decks in general and then included 1 in base instead of 4th Pentad and also thought on getting better opal - opal is likely why this deck works so well and the same applyed to old tezz - C.M. was the reason this deck became a tier deck long time ago. It is a 0 mana rock cost and at its worst a Lotus Petal
@DisgruntledElk, yes please type a general sideboard guide.
It seem to me strange that you took out those jace having 4 Mox/4Pentad. I mean Jace is a very good card and fits in here very well!
Even I am trying to put a 3rd Jace in the deck... but really not sure about this... Always I see jace in my hand I am happy about this...
general notes:
- I put up the number of decays to 4. the card is just key in so many match ups... and is so polivalent... I come from a TES deck and was used in here as a CatchAll card - in here is no exception. Stony/Confis/
- I'm trying to make room for Time Sieve or Klark-Clan. I find Klrk easier to enable but T.Sieve is just definite. What are your opinions?What I have clear is that both occupies the same slot in the deck so I would need to chose one or other. I need to evaluate which card is worth vs the diff decks and If is really needed. Ex.: Vs company Sieve is superior but really don't know if it is really needed. Vs Green tron Sieve is also better becuase of Stone but vs Storm Krark seem to be better as they will not kill you at 1milllion lifes. Opinions?
- green tron and blue tron are ***** of decks to face - the Travis deck just assumed that loose when building the deck and likely that was a good choice... Come dominaria soon!
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I am a Dedicated Storm Player - Yes only in Legacy...
@pelikanudo:
Aether Grid and Cranial Plating are why I prefer the decays over the fatal pushes.
If I were to Whir or a land I would just get Mox Opal although I have only ever had to do it once. The reason I only play 2 Mox Opal is because they are terrible top decks. If you draw the second one you might as well have not even drawn a card.
Thoughtseize is NOT good against Jund. You are playing right into their hand if you keep hand disruption in your deck. They want to deplete both hands to nothing and then top deck better than you. Hand disruption helps them get both hands to nothing and it is a bad top deck. Board them out.
Grafdigger's Cage does nothing against a lot of decks. Company decks have also fallen to a pretty low meta share. I think it is fine to play it in the sideboard.
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U/B Tezzeret Control
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
@Pelikanudo: While I could type up a point-by-point SB guide, I don't think it will do a lot of good for a couple reasons:
1. @racing089 did a great job summing up a lot of the general strategy points in the matchups. I think we have some small disagreements, but I generally think he is correct. He has also been tinkering with the deck MUCH longer than me. There are some matchups I still have yet to play. That being said, I do enjoy cutting 1-2 bauble in many matchups for more meaningful cards post-board.
2. The deck is in constant tweaking and tuning, so having a point-by-point exact guide will likely be out of date sooner rather than later.
That being said, I will address the points you bring up, and some changes I have made. UBg Tezz v 3.5
I have upped the count on thopter sword from 3/2 (foundry/sword) to 4/2, adjusted the discard suite to 2/2 thoughtseize/IoK, and cut 1 pentad prism down to 3 to mitigate air in the deck. The 1 of KCI is great, and it lets you instantly combo before you have 5 consistent mana, which is why I prefer it over the Time Sieve.
Questions:
I've started with DisgruntledElk base which I like a lot. But I still left the 2 Jace... you play control and blue? then play jace
This is exactly what I thought before jamming the deck a bunch and realizing he was often just worse than every other top-end cards the vast majority of the time. I'd rather have an extra Foundry and KCI to close out games and make the deck more consistent than sometimes get advantage. That said, I could see him in the board for the grindy matchups.
I've sometimes needed to make WhirToLand and this saved my ass sometimes. Don't you miss this path?
Are you really confortable playing only 2 Mox? At first I played 4, next tried 3 but what happens is that you want to see always 1 in hand/draw and the downside to draw multiples just doesn't seem to matter. So 4 seem the correct number.
After playing the deck, I would never go below 3 opal, but 4 has been great. In regards to the Darksteel Citadel, I'm a fan of having more 0 mana artifacts to turn on my opals faster and give me the ability to make a 5/5 indestructible creature with Tezz.
@DisgruntledElk, yes please type a general sideboard guide.
It seem to me strange that you took out those jace having 4 Mox/4Pentad. I mean Jace is a very good card and fits in here very well!
Even I am trying to put a 3rd Jace in the deck... but really not sure about this... Always I see jace in my hand I am happy about this...
Kind of already addressed this. If you are really liking the jaces, go for it. I personally prefer the cards I mentioned though. Deck is weird.
general notes:
- I put up the number of decays to 4. the card is just key in so many match ups... and is so polivalent... I come from a TES deck and was used in here as a CatchAll card - in here is no exception. Stony/Confis
This is why I have the split of 3 AD/1 Pulse. Maelstrom pulse has overperformed, and kills walkers as well as leylines. I've been tempted to honestly go to a 2/2 split as it keeps doing so much work.
- green tron and blue tron are ***** of decks to face - the Travis deck just assumed that loose when building the deck and likely that was a good choice... Come dominaria soon!
Blue tron is definitely a pain, but surprisingly I have been doing well vs tron. NOT great, but well. I obviously can't wait for damping sphere, but in the mean time, the plan is to lava axe them to death with Tezzeret -1's and Animate Scissors. Ensoul Artifact out of the board is big game and you can often aggro them down with that plan. Going infinite with KCI has also helped a great deal.
And for the Jace debate i'm pretty sure that it is not better than tezz in our deck. I personally run a really lowered PW count (2) and would not add jace before tezz 2 and 3.
3x Mishra's Bauble
4x Mox Opal
2x Welding Jar
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
4x Pentad Prism
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Thopter Foundy
2x Sword of the Meek
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Krark-Clan Ironworks
1x Witchbane Orb
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4x Whir of Invention
Lands
4x Spire of Industry
3x Darkslick Shore
3x Watery Grave
1x Swamp
3x Island
1x Darksteel Citadel
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Inventors Fair
1x Academy Ruins
Try to go with a lockdown version of Tezz then the strait turbo version. Basically I'm trying to combine that new blue artifact lockdown deck with Sword/Thopter for wincon. I tried to avoid one drops other then the Pithing Needle since I'm running Chalice of the Void.I'm also planning on splashing green for SB Abrupt Decay. Comments and suggests are welcomed.
@the_Nobodys : grats!! My experience with Defense grid has been good when Grixis Death’s Shadow was at its height, since they’re so low on mana and Stubborn Denial could break our game. However if they only had one (its the case most times), running an additional must-answer threat gives us a similar outcome. And a discard spell (including Brutality) holds a similar function, while often being way more versatile. This is what i noticed.
Hadn’t had a chance to resolve it much against UWx control though.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Do you think it would be worth running a grafdigger's cage or Nihil Spellbomb main? If so what would you take out of the MB?
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
My record has been incredible as of late but Hollow One is consistently beating me. Every time I start putting together a good game Burning Inquiry destroys me on the spot. That and they have many ways to dig very deep to ancient grudges. I am not really sure if there is anything we can do. Sometimes we are just going to get got by that deck.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
I'm on the U/r Prison / Tezz smashup that I've been playing recently (like 6 leagues total now). The list is a few posts up, only I cut 2 colorless lands, the repeals, and put a bunch of battles in the board. The crucible/map package hasn't been that much use these last few leagues because of all the aggro, so I may go back to a more traditional build. I am REALLY looking forward to trying Navigator's Compass now. Lifegain and mana fix for utily lands, please.
Edit - Got another 5-0! This time games against Martyr Proc, Bogles, Grixis Control, BR Hollow One, and Jund. Only game loss was to BR Hollow One where he went turn 2 stony, which just meant I drew an easy slate of matches where bridge dominates. 4 Battle at the Bridge, (1 main, 3 side) did work against hollow one. I cast back to back battles for x=4 and x=5 on his 2 hollow ones, then the next turn he cast burning inquiry to make his 3 flameblade adepts lethal, and I echoing truthed them in response, making him discard 2. It was the best.
Highly reccommend clicking through
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/search.aspx?format=Modern&date_format=Modern - Archive&archetype=A000304&releasedt_type=1&min_releasedt=&max_releasedt=&player=Shinohara&name_je=&name_je_type=1&search.x=submit
Thanks a lot for that side guide - I used some of your side concepts and reaally works! you should be putting that gide in the primer!
I dont understand why you take out F.Push vs aff. seems superior to decay - but sure it has to have some logic behind...
Questions:
I've started with DisgruntledElk base which I like a lot. But I still left the 2 Jace, I really think it is a very good card in this deck just because of 2 reasons: we have discard and we have acceleration and jace by itslef is a good card. some says it does not have synergy with our deck. well I bleieve a
good card doesnt have to have synergy if it is a good card on its own. you play control and blue? then play jace
I've sometimes needed to make WhirToLand and this saved my ass sometimes. Don't you miss this path?
Are you really confortable playing only 2 Mox? At first I played 4, next tried 3 but what happens is that you want to see always 1 in hand/draw and the downside to draw multiples just doesn't seem to matter. So 4 seem the correct number.
Against Jund you are taking out proactive answers and putting in reactive ones. Why? I mean T.Seize is good against this archetype! why do you take it out? it takes D.C. lili, and lot of good stuff from them and provides a way to know how to develop the board. Ex.: if they are overloading on artifact ahte and type.
applying the logic about taking out mana rocks vs grindier games. I found this to be key, but we play 21 lands only and you seem to leave just 2 mox vs jeskay/control in general plus the fact you need to cast decay in here. you play total 5 mana rocks. are they enough? and only 2 Mox post boarding?
I found that the more mana rocks you play the more planeswalker you want to play also, when testing I found that Cage was a key card vs company decks in general and then included 1 in base instead of 4th Pentad and also thought on getting better opal - opal is likely why this deck works so well and the same applyed to old tezz - C.M. was the reason this deck became a tier deck long time ago. It is a 0 mana rock cost and at its worst a Lotus Petal
@DisgruntledElk, yes please type a general sideboard guide.
It seem to me strange that you took out those jace having 4 Mox/4Pentad. I mean Jace is a very good card and fits in here very well!
Even I am trying to put a 3rd Jace in the deck... but really not sure about this... Always I see jace in my hand I am happy about this...
general notes:
- I put up the number of decays to 4. the card is just key in so many match ups... and is so polivalent... I come from a TES deck and was used in here as a CatchAll card - in here is no exception. Stony/Confis/
- I'm trying to make room for Time Sieve or Klark-Clan. I find Klrk easier to enable but T.Sieve is just definite. What are your opinions?What I have clear is that both occupies the same slot in the deck so I would need to chose one or other. I need to evaluate which card is worth vs the diff decks and If is really needed. Ex.: Vs company Sieve is superior but really don't know if it is really needed. Vs Green tron Sieve is also better becuase of Stone but vs Storm Krark seem to be better as they will not kill you at 1milllion lifes. Opinions?
- green tron and blue tron are ***** of decks to face - the Travis deck just assumed that loose when building the deck and likely that was a good choice... Come dominaria soon!
Aether Grid and Cranial Plating are why I prefer the decays over the fatal pushes.
If I were to Whir or a land I would just get Mox Opal although I have only ever had to do it once. The reason I only play 2 Mox Opal is because they are terrible top decks. If you draw the second one you might as well have not even drawn a card.
Thoughtseize is NOT good against Jund. You are playing right into their hand if you keep hand disruption in your deck. They want to deplete both hands to nothing and then top deck better than you. Hand disruption helps them get both hands to nothing and it is a bad top deck. Board them out.
Grafdigger's Cage does nothing against a lot of decks. Company decks have also fallen to a pretty low meta share. I think it is fine to play it in the sideboard.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
1. @racing089 did a great job summing up a lot of the general strategy points in the matchups. I think we have some small disagreements, but I generally think he is correct. He has also been tinkering with the deck MUCH longer than me. There are some matchups I still have yet to play. That being said, I do enjoy cutting 1-2 bauble in many matchups for more meaningful cards post-board.
2. The deck is in constant tweaking and tuning, so having a point-by-point exact guide will likely be out of date sooner rather than later.
That being said, I will address the points you bring up, and some changes I have made.
UBg Tezz v 3.5
I have upped the count on thopter sword from 3/2 (foundry/sword) to 4/2, adjusted the discard suite to 2/2 thoughtseize/IoK, and cut 1 pentad prism down to 3 to mitigate air in the deck. The 1 of KCI is great, and it lets you instantly combo before you have 5 consistent mana, which is why I prefer it over the Time Sieve.
This is exactly what I thought before jamming the deck a bunch and realizing he was often just worse than every other top-end cards the vast majority of the time. I'd rather have an extra Foundry and KCI to close out games and make the deck more consistent than sometimes get advantage. That said, I could see him in the board for the grindy matchups.
After playing the deck, I would never go below 3 opal, but 4 has been great. In regards to the Darksteel Citadel, I'm a fan of having more 0 mana artifacts to turn on my opals faster and give me the ability to make a 5/5 indestructible creature with Tezz.
Kind of already addressed this. If you are really liking the jaces, go for it. I personally prefer the cards I mentioned though. Deck is weird.
This is why I have the split of 3 AD/1 Pulse. Maelstrom pulse has overperformed, and kills walkers as well as leylines. I've been tempted to honestly go to a 2/2 split as it keeps doing so much work.
Blue tron is definitely a pain, but surprisingly I have been doing well vs tron. NOT great, but well. I obviously can't wait for damping sphere, but in the mean time, the plan is to lava axe them to death with Tezzeret -1's and Animate Scissors. Ensoul Artifact out of the board is big game and you can often aggro them down with that plan. Going infinite with KCI has also helped a great deal.
Hope that clarified things a bit, and good luck!