@Reedy26 - Lantern can manage 18 lands because they can self mill to smooth their draws. If we run 4 SV and 4 bauble, AND run 4 opt or street wraith, then we could shave 1-2 lands. I personally like 20 lands with 7-8 cantrips because unlike lantern or burn, we want to continue hitting land drops for thopter foundry.
Feel free to give a chalice build a try, but I think having access to SV/IoK/spellbomb is better than shutting off spells that generally aren't interracting with our game-A plan of thopter/sword. Chalice is good against burn, affinity, and storm if you can land one on 2. Affinity is already an easy matchup, and Collective Brutality / whirring for a maindeck silver bullet can wrap up games 1 against burn/storm. Against jund and control, I would rather have discard than chalice in my opener. Just my 2 cents.
Unrelated topic - I've been playing thoughtcast recently and I'm quite liking it. I turned to it because I don't want to pay for jace online and wanted a decent card advantage spell to keep up with jund. I think I'm on 3 visions/3 thoughtcast right now. It's surpsingly easy to cast for 2 on turn 2-3, and is one of the only cards I'm always spending a mana on once I've assembled the combo. Especially against jund and control, I'm always happy to see it.
with all the recent success others have been having i think it might be time to dust off our chalices and put them in the main in favour of our 1 CMC slot. between chalice, bridge, orb, crucible, and now sphere it would be super hard for anyone to try and not be locked out against us, especially if we have a welding jar as backup. thoptersword could just be a late game thing against non stony decks and otherwise i think there are now enough artifacts with no activated ability that we can just win with tezz ult.
i've noticed as well we're the only whir deck playing non-opal ramp (i.e. prism, talismans). are we over exaggerating their use? sure they allow super broken whirs but they're bad top decks and end up being sacced to a foundry in my experience to try and stay alive. i'd much rather have the 3rd bridge and some more lock pieces/better artifacts. after all any artifact we play will tap for at least 1 mana but things like sphere and chalice also help slow our opponents down to a much more manageable pace. lantern is a deck that plays less lands than us but still rocks the full playset of whir, if they can manage is i dont see why we can't also.
Prism was pretty terrible against the grindy decks. I'm happy to not run it anymore. Also, the lantern decks can run fewer lands because normally the lantern pieces control your own draw first to make sure you hit the right amount of lands. It's way more consistent than having cantrips and hate pieces.
with all the recent success others have been having i think it might be time to dust off our chalices and put them in the main in favour of our 1 CMC slot. between chalice, bridge, orb, crucible, and now sphere it would be super hard for anyone to try and not be locked out against us, especially if we have a welding jar as backup. thoptersword could just be a late game thing against non stony decks and otherwise i think there are now enough artifacts with no activated ability that we can just win with tezz ult.
i've noticed as well we're the only whir deck playing non-opal ramp (i.e. prism, talismans). are we over exaggerating their use? sure they allow super broken whirs but they're bad top decks and end up being sacced to a foundry in my experience to try and stay alive. i'd much rather have the 3rd bridge and some more lock pieces/better artifacts. after all any artifact we play will tap for at least 1 mana but things like sphere and chalice also help slow our opponents down to a much more manageable pace. lantern is a deck that plays less lands than us but still rocks the full playset of whir, if they can manage is i dont see why we can't also.
I think it's a bad idea to conflate thopter sword with lantern or the UR grind deck. They have such differences in how they want their first few turns to play out and ultimately how they want the game to look.
For example talismans are great in thopter sword because it ups the speed of 4 drops and lets us whir and untap with more mana to end the game quickly. Both lantern and Grindfather want the game's play speed to drop to 0, so they have to play a high density of cheap action spells to keep locking the opp out of the game.
In another note, once Dominaria is out I think our deck is poised to see a significant bump in relevance in the meta. My SBs were 9-10 cards for storm/tron and 5 slots for stony kill. For me at least I'm thinking one sphere of supression main two in the side which means the deck can actually have a large sideboard to deal with outlier strategies. Wow. Can't wait.
I'd probably cut the cage from the main and put in a 2nd spellbomb. The jaces were okay, but would rather just have more thopter foundry combo pieces. The lack of discard was okay, didnt miss it in the main. Sideboard, cut a kalitas for 2nd herald. probably dont need first kalitas either. Swap a decay for a golgari charm cause that helps against leyline of the void / stony and fast decks.
Deck was a blast to play, would recommend.
Also, here are the matchups that I played against:
Jund - L
Turbo Eldrazi (colorless)
Ponza
Humans
BW Smallpox
Merfolk
Eldrazi Tron - L
MonoG Tron - L
I think we settled on very similar opinions about some cards...
More than 2 Opal is asking a lot.
Spellbomb is just better than Relic. It can be brought back with Academy, occasionally imitates a Tormod's, doesn't screw our Search for Azcanta, sacced for a thopter + card, etc. etc.
5+ Fetches is must for consistency and the fact that it synergizes with Bauble.
Abrupt Decay, Spellskite, the 4th copy of Brutality, and Herald should all be in the SB.
What made you decide on Spire of Industry over Glimmervoid? In playing I would occasionally cast Foundry on T2, and needed the colored mana as my first artifact so I just decided Glimmervoid was going to be smoother generally.
Good work Zac! And thanks for sharing your build. Some thoughts and questions :
- On top of the absence of Bauble (Why tho? Just turbo-Xerox’ it in, no?), i notice the lack of Serum vision, too. That means very little early library manipulation, which is usually consistent with the « just jam as many thopter-sword pieces as you can in there » deckbuilding strategy. So going up on the Foundry numbers makes sense. But also some Baubles could (should) help!!!
- The lack of MB Thoughtseize or IoK would make me a little nervous but maybe thats just my playstyle. Assuming you’ve selected Collective Brutality as the deck’s mean to punch through counterspells (+++), don’t you find the curve a little wonky with all the cmc-2’s, 3’s and 4’s?
- Lastly, Herald of Anguish has turned out very underwhelming for me even though i tried real hard. Have you tested it a lot or are we operating on a hunch? What other cards were considered in these slots and what made you pick this big guy over other stuff?
Hey cheers! Keep it up. Tezzerator Represent!!
/e: Bonus question —- how can you even sleep at night knowing that they’re printing Damping Sphere for us? ::))
@shadowgripper Thanks so much for posting on here, every time I see a cool build that seems like I would want to play it you're the inventor. So glad to get your take on this build: I think it's got a ton of power and stands to be the primary benefactor of a Tron nerfing.
I think I speak for everyone when I say that any updates or thoughts you have on the deck in the future would be really appreciated by this forum.
/e: Yeah, his list looks tightly tuned IMO. @Zac, Travis’ list adresses some of the concerns i’ve raised regarding yours ; notably in including some library manipulation (Baubles, SV) and targeted discard (MB Thoughtseize) and an extra Foundry.
His list looks pretty stock to me, only with a few more mana rocks and 2 citadels. The 4 thoughtseize and no CB makes me think his build is soft to burn. I still don't get why people run prism. Here, especially over talisman, with 3 lands that tap for colorless and 9 1-drops that could be cast turn 3 after a talisman. It's wrong, I tells ya, wrong!!
Speaking of burn, I'm actually really excited to test 3-4 copies of the new mana fixers that gain 3 on ETB, navigator's compass. I'm going to run at least 4 colorless utility lands with them, maybe 5, to make them worthwhile. Academy Ruins, inventor's fair, and some number of field of ruin. The compass itself is a lousy topdeck, but it's one of those sweet early drops that helps you survive and can be turned into a 5/5 or sacced. It also lets you save a fetchland for when you draw a bauble later, to gain a free scry.
I think we're looking at lists that have had good finishes at big events and taking we're taking cues from them, not critiquing them- right? Am I missing something?
List is solid but basic, I've found running Inkmoths over Darksteel Citadel with 1 cranial platting gets wins out of the blue especially vs Tron. You can swing for 10 poison on turns 5-6 with Tezz more often than you think. Have a chalice on 1 to remove path and other annoying removal spells by then and really watch your opponent flip the table. Thing is with this deck is it's player based, there's sooooooooo many options and routes to go, its all about finding your play style.
I think we're looking at lists that have had good finishes at big events and taking we're taking cues from them, not critiquing them- right? Am I missing something?
If you're refering to my posts I'm not brushing off anything or anyone's build, just giving my Tezz überveteran input on some choices and configuration. I like to think everything is constructive criticism at worst, so yeah, we do criticize I guess? Besides, Travis' build integrates the exact elements I earlier said Zac's build might benefit from. So if we compare the two (what we should obviously do if we're «taking cues from them», as you put it) -- this pops out immediately. Every way I look at this, I don't see where's the harm
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
@radouf how have you found Jace? As much as I want to use him I find he just doesn't fit the flow of my deck. Turn 3 I'm typically laying Tezz or Whirring for a piece of the combo or bridge protection. From there clock is on to finish as opposed to delay. I just never find an optimal time to drop him.
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Feel free to give a chalice build a try, but I think having access to SV/IoK/spellbomb is better than shutting off spells that generally aren't interracting with our game-A plan of thopter/sword. Chalice is good against burn, affinity, and storm if you can land one on 2. Affinity is already an easy matchup, and Collective Brutality / whirring for a maindeck silver bullet can wrap up games 1 against burn/storm. Against jund and control, I would rather have discard than chalice in my opener. Just my 2 cents.
Prism was pretty terrible against the grindy decks. I'm happy to not run it anymore. Also, the lantern decks can run fewer lands because normally the lantern pieces control your own draw first to make sure you hit the right amount of lands. It's way more consistent than having cantrips and hate pieces.
I think it's a bad idea to conflate thopter sword with lantern or the UR grind deck. They have such differences in how they want their first few turns to play out and ultimately how they want the game to look.
For example talismans are great in thopter sword because it ups the speed of 4 drops and lets us whir and untap with more mana to end the game quickly. Both lantern and Grindfather want the game's play speed to drop to 0, so they have to play a high density of cheap action spells to keep locking the opp out of the game.
In another note, once Dominaria is out I think our deck is poised to see a significant bump in relevance in the meta. My SBs were 9-10 cards for storm/tron and 5 slots for stony kill. For me at least I'm thinking one sphere of supression main two in the side which means the deck can actually have a large sideboard to deal with outlier strategies. Wow. Can't wait.
Twitch.tv/scglive
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/237339509?t=9097
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
2 Welding Jar
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
4 Pentad Prism
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Krark-Clan Ironworks
4 Fatal Push
3 Collective Brutality
1 Search for Azcanta
4 Whir of Invention
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
2 Spire of Industry
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Academy Ruins
1 Darksteel Citadel
4 Island
1 Swamp
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Herald of Anguish
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
1 Welding Jar
1 Spellskite
1 Pithing Needle
1 Witchbane Orb
I'd probably cut the cage from the main and put in a 2nd spellbomb. The jaces were okay, but would rather just have more thopter foundry combo pieces. The lack of discard was okay, didnt miss it in the main. Sideboard, cut a kalitas for 2nd herald. probably dont need first kalitas either. Swap a decay for a golgari charm cause that helps against leyline of the void / stony and fast decks.
Deck was a blast to play, would recommend.
Also, here are the matchups that I played against:
Jund - L
Turbo Eldrazi (colorless)
Ponza
Humans
BW Smallpox
Merfolk
Eldrazi Tron - L
MonoG Tron - L
I think we settled on very similar opinions about some cards...
More than 2 Opal is asking a lot.
Spellbomb is just better than Relic. It can be brought back with Academy, occasionally imitates a Tormod's, doesn't screw our Search for Azcanta, sacced for a thopter + card, etc. etc.
5+ Fetches is must for consistency and the fact that it synergizes with Bauble.
Abrupt Decay, Spellskite, the 4th copy of Brutality, and Herald should all be in the SB.
What made you decide on Spire of Industry over Glimmervoid? In playing I would occasionally cast Foundry on T2, and needed the colored mana as my first artifact so I just decided Glimmervoid was going to be smoother generally.
- On top of the absence of Bauble (Why tho? Just turbo-Xerox’ it in, no?), i notice the lack of Serum vision, too. That means very little early library manipulation, which is usually consistent with the « just jam as many thopter-sword pieces as you can in there » deckbuilding strategy. So going up on the Foundry numbers makes sense. But also some Baubles could (should) help!!!
- The lack of MB Thoughtseize or IoK would make me a little nervous but maybe thats just my playstyle. Assuming you’ve selected Collective Brutality as the deck’s mean to punch through counterspells (+++), don’t you find the curve a little wonky with all the cmc-2’s, 3’s and 4’s?
- Lastly, Herald of Anguish has turned out very underwhelming for me even though i tried real hard. Have you tested it a lot or are we operating on a hunch? What other cards were considered in these slots and what made you pick this big guy over other stuff?
Hey cheers! Keep it up. Tezzerator Represent!!
/e: Bonus question —- how can you even sleep at night knowing that they’re printing Damping Sphere for us? ::))
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I think I speak for everyone when I say that any updates or thoughts you have on the deck in the future would be really appreciated by this forum.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=119419
/e: Yeah, his list looks tightly tuned IMO. @Zac, Travis’ list adresses some of the concerns i’ve raised regarding yours ; notably in including some library manipulation (Baubles, SV) and targeted discard (MB Thoughtseize) and an extra Foundry.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Speaking of burn, I'm actually really excited to test 3-4 copies of the new mana fixers that gain 3 on ETB, navigator's compass. I'm going to run at least 4 colorless utility lands with them, maybe 5, to make them worthwhile. Academy Ruins, inventor's fair, and some number of field of ruin. The compass itself is a lousy topdeck, but it's one of those sweet early drops that helps you survive and can be turned into a 5/5 or sacced. It also lets you save a fetchland for when you draw a bauble later, to gain a free scry.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.