So my only ranked losses with my MythRack list are against mirror matches! What the hell?! One guy went so far as to foil out his whole mono black deck including foil unhinged lands...
I'm tired of getting out-8rack'd. What are some side board cards for the mirror match? Lets start with the black cards then open it up to any card that would potentially be good in a mirror.
On that note, my mono black stock list with 3 AV, 3 Rat snap in package is by far the best way to win a mirror. MythRack and all other versions lack the clock of the stock list.
8Rack is a bad choice to have a sideboard plan against. It's statistically irrelevant in the metagame and such an unlikely occurrence that dedicating slots for that is a bad idea. If you have any graveyard hate currently that maybe that can serve some purpose in the mirrors to slow the crimes down a bit, but I don't really see a way to tech specifically against 8Rack with anything other than Leyline of Sanctity and the like. It's easy to target with this specific card (OK, maybe a few others) but it's not worth it. If you think that's your tech against Burn/another highly played deck then maybe.
Ok well that said, what are some specific 8rack hate cards we could use. I don't really care about statistical anomalies when I keep facing the deck in ranked matches online (had another today).
I'm with esperino here. We don't want to have specific hate that targets the mirror. But we should have general hate that helps in the mirror, not a silver bullet but a bronze bullet. I'd agree it's Extirpate and/or Surgical Extraction or even... Lost Legacy type cards. Try and grab a rack (preferably Shrieking) and hope to win the Rack Race since MythRack literally can't win the Rat Race. Approach it as we do Affinity, Burn and like Rob did vs Lantern control in a recent league match, it's close to a coin flip but with luck and knowledge the most wincons wins.
8rack stock list has the advantage in the mirror just like mono R or boros burn has advantage over Naya, less self dmg. Sure they have silver bullet in Kor Firewalker but burn is also a deck you will eventually play at a big event, it's worth 2 silver bullets. In our case stock list has beaters that get out of hand faster than a SPox list (including mythrack).
I prefer to keep 3-4 Anti combo cards in the sideboard because we're a discard deck and it can be very versatile. Versus top control you should drop your targeted removal and bring in... what? Extirpate/Surgical and hit Lantern of InsightCodex ShredderGhoulcaller's Bell. It takes the targeted creature removal spot here. Same can be said for,obviously combo decks, 8rack, control.
PS: Rob if you really wanna run a hoser try Wilt-Leaf Liege first thing that came to my mind
OK, well there isn't really anything that targets 8Rack which can't be overcome. Leyline of the Void (or other graveyard-hating effects but since we're talking mainly mono-black here) can slow down the Crime action (as I mentioned before) and the Dakmor loop (still targeting Raven's Crime). Outside of Black, Leyline of Sanctity is fairly annoying to deal with and makes it very hard for them to put you on the clock (could work in a mono-black version too, why not). Combined artifact+enchantment (let's keep it simple with Disenchant for now) removal means linear approaches can't win the game because you're going to have more win conditions online. Other than that, everything else is on a build-by-build basis since there are many versions of the deck. Also, I think that non-smallpox rack decks beat smallpox versions but I'm not 100% sure about this, never tested the mirror against a pox list.
But first and foremost, let's start by not making misplays. Not to put salt on an open wound, but if your Thoughtseize reveals a Liliana, that's what you take if you want to win the game.
I was having a surprisingly hard time thinking of anti 8-rack cards. Maybe some sort of card draw to turn off the racks? Maybe an artifact or enchantment since mono b can't touch those? I want to say Phyrexian Arena but thats too slow. Another option is some sort of self-reanimating creature like Bloodghast that doesn't care about being destroyed or discarded. Ill keep thinking
The best ways in my experience to fight 8rack with non-specific hate will also hurt you because they're powerful but symmetrical: Engineered Explosives on 1, Chalice on 1, Fracturing Gust.
I thought Asylum Visitor would be an MVP in the mirror, considering she has madness and a relevant trigger.
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I was having a surprisingly hard time thinking of anti 8-rack cards. Maybe some sort of card draw to turn off the racks? Maybe an artifact or enchantment since mono b can't touch those? I want to say Phyrexian Arena but thats too slow. Another option is some sort of self-reanimating creature like Bloodghast that doesn't care about being destroyed or discarded. Ill keep thinking
Bloodghast is actually a decent selection. Beat the mirror by having faster clock is my main plan, and critters like Bloodghast make sense for that.
t1 courtyard > Myth, t2 crime > swamp > crime (or IoK/TS if you top it), t3 wrench/dismember > land drop? > swing myth
Depends what you top deck but without targeted discard I'd put myth out. With targeted discard you do that first as normal, in the blind.
On Bloodghast sure in the mirror. But it sort of a nonbo with Raven's Crime if you play the top decked land you get the ghast if you pitch the land you get the crime. In the mirror it's way less of a choice as you'll both be hellbent eventually and you'll just want that creature out swinging. Could come up more in other match ups, though.
t1 courtyard > Myth, t2 crime > swamp > crime (or IoK/TS if you top it), t3 wrench/dismember > land drop? > swing myth
Depends what you top deck but without targeted discard I'd put myth out. With targeted discard you do that first as normal, in the blind.
On Bloodghast sure in the mirror. But it sort of a nonbo with Raven's Crime if you play the top decked land you get the ghast if you pitch the land you get the crime. In the mirror it's way less of a choice as you'll both be hellbent eventually and you'll just want that creature out swinging. Could come up more in other match ups, though.
I'm not sure I recommend playing Myth T1 on the play. On the play we need to get in their hand if we can via IoK or Thoughtseize. Short of that, play the Myth.
Smallpox throws a wrench into the above play lines, but turn 2 smallpox plays need their own separate discussion. After that the lines start getting really complicated lol.
t1 courtyard > Myth, t2 crime > swamp > crime (or IoK/TS if you top it), t3 wrench/dismember > land drop? > swing myth
Depends what you top deck but without targeted discard I'd put myth out. With targeted discard you do that first as normal, in the blind.
On Bloodghast sure in the mirror. But it sort of a nonbo with Raven's Crime if you play the top decked land you get the ghast if you pitch the land you get the crime. In the mirror it's way less of a choice as you'll both be hellbent eventually and you'll just want that creature out swinging. Could come up more in other match ups, though.
I'm not sure I recommend playing Myth T1 on the play. On the play we need to get in their hand if we can via IoK or Thoughtseize. Short of that, play the Myth.
Smallpox throws a wrench into the above play lines, but turn 2 smallpox plays need their own separate discussion. After that the lines start getting really complicated lol.
t1 courtyard > Myth, t2 crime > swamp > crime (or IoK/TS if you top it), t3 wrench/dismember > land drop? > swing myth
Depends what you top deck but without targeted discard I'd put myth out. With targeted discard you do that first as normal, in the blind.
On Bloodghast sure in the mirror. But it sort of a nonbo with Raven's Crime if you play the top decked land you get the ghast if you pitch the land you get the crime. In the mirror it's way less of a choice as you'll both be hellbent eventually and you'll just want that creature out swinging. Could come up more in other match ups, though.
I'm not sure I recommend playing Myth T1 on the play. On the play we need to get in their hand if we can via IoK or Thoughtseize. Short of that, play the Myth.
Smallpox throws a wrench into the above play lines, but turn 2 smallpox plays need their own separate discussion. After that the lines start getting really complicated lol.
You lost me. In that specific opening hand what would you play? On one hand you explain that Myth Realized is your second T1 Priority after Thoughtseize/IoK but on the other hand you criticize Panda for recommending a T1 Myth in an opening hand without Thoughtseize/IoK.
So my only ranked losses with my MythRack list are against mirror matches! What the hell?! One guy went so far as to foil out his whole mono black deck including foil unhinged lands...
I'm tired of getting out-8rack'd. What are some side board cards for the mirror match? Lets start with the black cards then open it up to any card that would potentially be good in a mirror.
On that note, my mono black stock list with 3 AV, 3 Rat snap in package is by far the best way to win a mirror. MythRack and all other versions lack the clock of the stock list.
Smallpox build suffers from card advantage: Asylum Visitor, Dark Confidant, Bloodghast, Lingering Souls etc. Other builds too, but creatures are not that effective against Bridge
Understanding the matchup is crucial as it is unnatural. When to discard vs when not to, what to discard. Racks are most important cards as both of oyu threaten to go hellbent anytime. If you have less Racks online usually you dont want to exchange resources. Ravens Crime on the other hand is least important since it is a 1-1 exchange and also the one casting it is spending mana. For this reason it is pointless to spend a card for RC hate. Ive met many opponents who Srugical my RC effectively giving me 1-for-0. Manlands are important because they deal damage without spending cards and also good vs Liliana and sorcery removal. I win most of my matches because opponents misunderstand hold-or-spend cards aspect, misplay card advantage-wise, Mutavaults swings or being more lucky with Racks.
t1 courtyard > Myth, t2 crime > swamp > crime (or IoK/TS if you top it), t3 wrench/dismember > land drop? > swing myth
Depends what you top deck but without targeted discard I'd put myth out. With targeted discard you do that first as normal, in the blind.
On Bloodghast sure in the mirror. But it sort of a nonbo with Raven's Crime if you play the top decked land you get the ghast if you pitch the land you get the crime. In the mirror it's way less of a choice as you'll both be hellbent eventually and you'll just want that creature out swinging. Could come up more in other match ups, though.
I'm not sure I recommend playing Myth T1 on the play. On the play we need to get in their hand if we can via IoK or Thoughtseize. Short of that, play the Myth.
Smallpox throws a wrench into the above play lines, but turn 2 smallpox plays need their own separate discussion. After that the lines start getting really complicated lol.
You lost me. In that specific opening hand what would you play? On one hand you explain that Myth Realized is your second T1 Priority after Thoughtseize/IoK but on the other hand you criticize Panda for recommending a T1 Myth in an opening hand without Thoughtseize/IoK.
I was the one confused actually. I read the original post as "what is the best turn 1 play in mythrack?". I felt it warranted me spelling it out because I personally get the greedy feeling of playing Myth on Turn 1 with IoK in hand.
Now to muddy the waters even further, vs a grindy blue opponent you almost always want to play myth on Turn 1 before he can counterspell it.
So my only ranked losses with my MythRack list are against mirror matches! What the hell?! One guy went so far as to foil out his whole mono black deck including foil unhinged lands...
I'm tired of getting out-8rack'd. What are some side board cards for the mirror match? Lets start with the black cards then open it up to any card that would potentially be good in a mirror.
On that note, my mono black stock list with 3 AV, 3 Rat snap in package is by far the best way to win a mirror. MythRack and all other versions lack the clock of the stock list.
Smallpox build suffers from card advantage: Asylum Visitor, Dark Confidant, Bloodghast, Lingering Souls etc. Other builds too, but creatures are not that effective against Bridge
Understanding the matchup is crucial as it is unnatural. When to discard vs when not to, what to discard. Racks are most important cards as both of oyu threaten to go hellbent anytime. If you have less Racks online usually you dont want to exchange resources. Ravens Crime on the other hand is least important since it is a 1-1 exchange and also the one casting it is spending mana. For this reason it is pointless to spend a card for RC hate. Ive met many opponents who Srugical my RC effectively giving me 1-for-0. Manlands are important because they deal damage without spending cards and also good vs Liliana and sorcery removal. I win most of my matches because opponents misunderstand hold-or-spend cards aspect, misplay card advantage-wise, Mutavaults swings or being more lucky with Racks.
Some really good points in here. It's all about clock in the mirror. Obstinate Baloth is the best land mine critter. I think it works better here than bloodghast would. It's strictly better than Loxodon Smiter for our purposes because the casting cost is irrelevant since we would never hard cast it. The only very edge case scenario where smiter has an advantage is vs IoK. Let's say that Smiter is the only card in your hand and he casts IoK on you, then smiter hits the board where baloth wouldn't.
I understand the sentiment here but I think you are missing point. We aren't discussing the wisdom on devoting space for the mirror, we are simply trying to identify what cards COULD be used if the situation warranted it. One must be familiar with ALL the tools in one's toolbox, even if those tools are rarely used.
Well, leyline of sanctity is the obvious mirror crusher, and it's in our colors, and it hoses other decks too like burn/abzan/jund. I suppose whether you want to run it is the question over other options and that's probably a meta call.
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8rack stock list has the advantage in the mirror just like mono R or boros burn has advantage over Naya, less self dmg. Sure they have silver bullet in Kor Firewalker but burn is also a deck you will eventually play at a big event, it's worth 2 silver bullets. In our case stock list has beaters that get out of hand faster than a SPox list (including mythrack).
I prefer to keep 3-4 Anti combo cards in the sideboard because we're a discard deck and it can be very versatile. Versus top control you should drop your targeted removal and bring in... what? Extirpate/Surgical and hit Lantern of Insight Codex Shredder Ghoulcaller's Bell. It takes the targeted creature removal spot here. Same can be said for,obviously combo decks, 8rack, control.
PS: Rob if you really wanna run a hoser try Wilt-Leaf Liege first thing that came to my mind
Edit 2* Pure Intentions? These are narrow AF. Leyline of Sanctity really is the general answer and you love it versus burn.
Cube
Terricube
Modern
8Rack
Burn
Legacy
Oops, All Spells!
Pox
But first and foremost, let's start by not making misplays. Not to put salt on an open wound, but if your Thoughtseize reveals a Liliana, that's what you take if you want to win the game.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I thought Asylum Visitor would be an MVP in the mirror, considering she has madness and a relevant trigger.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Bloodghast is actually a decent selection. Beat the mirror by having faster clock is my main plan, and critters like Bloodghast make sense for that.
Swamp, Concealed Courtyard, Raven's Crime, Raven's Crime, Myth Realized, Wrench Mind, Dismember
You're on the play
Legacy: Pox, R/B Goblins
Commander: Mono Black, Mono Blue
Pauper: Goblins
t1 courtyard > Myth, t2 crime > swamp > crime (or IoK/TS if you top it), t3 wrench/dismember > land drop? > swing myth
Depends what you top deck but without targeted discard I'd put myth out. With targeted discard you do that first as normal, in the blind.
On Bloodghast sure in the mirror. But it sort of a nonbo with Raven's Crime if you play the top decked land you get the ghast if you pitch the land you get the crime. In the mirror it's way less of a choice as you'll both be hellbent eventually and you'll just want that creature out swinging. Could come up more in other match ups, though.
Cube
Terricube
Modern
8Rack
Burn
Legacy
Oops, All Spells!
Pox
I'm not sure I recommend playing Myth T1 on the play. On the play we need to get in their hand if we can via IoK or Thoughtseize. Short of that, play the Myth.
Spell Priorities for MythRack:
-Turn 1: Thoughtseize / IoK > Myth > Raven's Crime > Racks
-Turn 2: Myth + Thoughtseize / IoK / Raven's Crime > Raven's Crime + Thoughtseize / IoK > Wrench > Raven's Crime + Raven's Crime > Raven's Crime + a Rack
-Turn 3: Lili or Pox + Myth Swings for 3...
Smallpox throws a wrench into the above play lines, but turn 2 smallpox plays need their own separate discussion. After that the lines start getting really complicated lol.
Yeah, that's what I meant. I was going off of the optimal play question's example hand. For me, Targeted or Hard discard refers to Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize anything that you choose, and Collective Brutality from the SB. Untargeted or Soft discard refers to Raven's Crime Wrench Mind Liliana of the Veil Smallpox
But a priority rundown is good to have for new players and we could optimize it and get in the primer(s).
Cube
Terricube
Modern
8Rack
Burn
Legacy
Oops, All Spells!
Pox
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Understanding the matchup is crucial as it is unnatural. When to discard vs when not to, what to discard. Racks are most important cards as both of oyu threaten to go hellbent anytime. If you have less Racks online usually you dont want to exchange resources. Ravens Crime on the other hand is least important since it is a 1-1 exchange and also the one casting it is spending mana. For this reason it is pointless to spend a card for RC hate. Ive met many opponents who Srugical my RC effectively giving me 1-for-0. Manlands are important because they deal damage without spending cards and also good vs Liliana and sorcery removal. I win most of my matches because opponents misunderstand hold-or-spend cards aspect, misplay card advantage-wise, Mutavaults swings or being more lucky with Racks.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Now to muddy the waters even further, vs a grindy blue opponent you almost always want to play myth on Turn 1 before he can counterspell it.
Some really good points in here. It's all about clock in the mirror. Obstinate Baloth is the best land mine critter. I think it works better here than bloodghast would. It's strictly better than Loxodon Smiter for our purposes because the casting cost is irrelevant since we would never hard cast it. The only very edge case scenario where smiter has an advantage is vs IoK. Let's say that Smiter is the only card in your hand and he casts IoK on you, then smiter hits the board where baloth wouldn't.
I have to agree.
I'd sooner play Lingering Souls or Asylum visitor - a combination of these 2 should give an edge in an 8rack mirror.
Edit: Wow, how fun would it be if your Mythrack went into the mirror round 2 and opponent Inquisitions and sees that u included Pure Intentions?
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins