The Tom Ross list IS there for those who are willing to take a real look and not just glance over a few decklists. It has a huge spotlight on it as the only thing in the Tournament Results section. Like I already said, I'm going to put it in there with the rest because apparently some people can't be bothered to scroll down past the first five sentences. That's all there is to say on this topic.
You have no basis for making a mardu list the face of 8Rack other than your own personal preference.
You know what? I think I do. I've played this deck almost for as long as you have and probably have a lot more games under my belt than you do. When the old thread hadn't been updated for almost 2 years did you do anything about it? Did somebody else? Well no. You just said on stream some minutes ago that you're not even posting your lists here anymore and that you are going to be doing your own thing on your YouTube channel. That's fine by me. But I'm not going to give up on maintaining the forum because of couple of casuals really like their smallpoxes and pack rats and their irrelevant xmage "results". For as long I am putting it out there for the entire community, writing guides and articles, explaining simple or advanced concepts of the deck that nobody before has even bothered to explain to new players, my personal preference does matter.
@Timba post your glorious xmage list and I'll add it to the primer for those interested in it.
The Tom Ross list may be there but your primer essentially says hey, check out this decklist, it's the most successful documented list we have ever seen... but it's built wrong.
At least change the title of the section "How not to build a deck" which sounds very factual (it isn't because you can't back it up with evidence) to something phrased more opinionative like "Popular 8Rack cards I personally don't recommend but YMMV". If you do something like that I will shut up.
Edit: Mind Shatter is just bad btw. You talk about the poor value of Pack Rat but the same principle is applied here. 3mana for 1 card? 4 for 2? 5 for 3? I would rather use Lily, or even Necrogen Mists.
The Tom Ross list may be there but your primer essentially says hey, check out this decklist, it's the most successful documented list we have ever seen... but it's built wrong.
At least change the title of the section "How not to build a deck" which sounds very factual (it isn't because you can't back it up with evidence) to something phrased more opinionative like "Popular 8Rack cards I personally don't recommend but YMMV". If you do something like that I will shut up.
Edit: Mind Shatter is just bad btw. You talk about the poor value of Pack Rat but the same principle is applied here. 3mana for 1 card? 4 for 2? 5 for 3? I would rather use Lily, or even Necrogen Mists.
I don'understand why there can't be a primer going into several lists.
The Tom Ross list may be there but your primer essentially says hey, check out this decklist, it's the most successful documented list we have ever seen... but it's built wrong.
At least change the title of the section "How not to build a deck" which sounds very factual (it isn't because you can't back it up with evidence) to something phrased more opinionative like "Popular 8Rack cards I personally don't recommend but YMMV". If you do something like that I will shut up.
Edit: Mind Shatter is just bad btw. You talk about the poor value of Pack Rat but the same principle is applied here. 3mana for 1 card? 4 for 2? 5 for 3? I would rather use Lily, or even Necrogen Mists.
I don'understand why there can't be a primer going into several lists.
He probably will in time. Esperino has already put a ton of work into this, and 95% of it is great.
I just registered for this Primer, so I could voice my dissatisfaction with it. Non-mono black deck as the recommended and exemplary build? Wth, no list's with Tom Ross or MemoryLapse' decks? It didnt even cross my mind that this was an 8rack Primer before i actually read the title, much of the highlighted content is opinionated, while the "core" and a tournament list is hidden below and in spoilers.
1. The forum software prevented us from transferring control of the old thread over to Esperino. This is a known software defect with no repair timeline, and it affects all threads on this forum equally. Don't blame Esperino for making a new post; it's standard protocol when someone takes over a primer to create a new one if they can't take over the old one.
2. I agree that lists like Tom Ross's need to be more prominent in the primer. When people Google "8Rack primer" or some variation thereof, they almost always want to see that core mono black list and then learn about variations after.
3. Most importantly, stay respectful and civil when discussing this topic. Do not troll Esperino or attack him personally. It's okay to constructively criticize the primer to improve it, but sarcastic jabs and other disparaging comments are not okay. If you see someone doing this, report them and don't respond; staff will look into it.
Esperino clearly put a lot of time and effort into the primer, so I'm sure we will see improvements and upgrades after some feedback.
Two things. First: I already stated that I'm going to move Tom Ross's list to the head of the featured lists (and it just had to be mentioned 10 other times before I've even had the chance to do it), because apparently being the only one in the competitive section of the post wasn't a clear indication that it's the recommended and most successful one (1>0). While on the subject of decklists, here is a fun irony that arose from the poll that I put up - because of all your votes, Tom Ross's list won't always be the one featured at the start of the Primer. What a goofy world we live in!
Second: Your criticism is very much appreciated. Guess what? I haven't done a Primer for public forums before and for the past day and half all of you have collective shown me what a bad idea that is. Nevertheless, I welcome every opinion that has even the slightest tangibility to it. But the function of Primers is to introduce new players to decks, not cater to the various and often contradicting needs to veterans of the field. The core of the deck is made up of black cards but the notion that a deck is solely ever mono-black is ridiculous. There are many ways to play the deck and many more fields to explore. The post gives ALL of the information and not only the tad bits that some specific people like about it. And yes, it is from MY perspective. Someone has to write the primer and everybody is biased to a degree, even though we try to stay as far away from that as possible.
Looks like our good friends ktkenshinx beat me to it, but a word of warning: I gave it a good day and something to get some critical reviews, which is nothing short of expected, but at this point I'm starting to report non-constructive comments that don't contribute to the discussion.
The changelog (which can be found just below the Primer) has been updated to document adjustments made to the Primer. Thanks to @Tvtyrant for pointing out a huge derp I did with the spelling of Night of Souls' Betrayal and to the community for voicing their concerns. More changes are on their way in the very near future.
Warning long post and terrible english ( I will try to make it better, but english is not my first language, so be gentle )
I do appreciate all the effort you put into making it Esperino, i do have some, in my oppinion, valid concerns with the structure of this primer. Since I want us all to have a better primer I'm going to point out some things I want to be revised or improved. While i do agree that 8rack with splash is powerful, I don't agree that the first sections discuss this. There should be a separate section further down, but not all the way, discussing all current splashes and cards to put/notput in the decks, you can refer to the splash builds when you talk about the deck further up, but I don't believe that the splashdecks should be the example or the first decklist that you or new players see.
While on the subject of decklists, here is a fun irony that arose from the poll that I put up - because of all your votes, Tom Ross's list won't always be the one featured at the start of the Primer. What a goofy world we live in!
I honestly voted for a vote on which deck to choose, since I thought you would decide another black-x splash deck, with no real results other than personal experience, sorry my bad I will change my vote.
I also noticed that in the archeotype/Matchup (Which is a great section, nice work!) the videos you use are a player playing mono-black, I feel this is misplaced since the whole section above discusses the splash variants or cards to include in splashes, I think if you want to keep the splash variants in the top, you should use some vids with the splashes. It might just be for sideboard purposes, or to discuss gameplan, but I do feel that they are misplaced.
While it might be my bias coming through, I do believe most here play the mono-black variant of the deck, and it's the deck with most proof and results (see Tom Ross/Robert Leva), I will not speak against them. But i do feel in my heart that the monoblack is the one weight bearing deck, while the splashes are, well... splashes, try to, id possible, to put the monoblack decks in the spotlight.
Onto the cards to include section. I think some of the listed cards are listed because you feel so, not because of results or hard data. While I can see that Smallpox and Pack Rat are not AUTOINCLUDE, I do belive that they are worthy of discussion. They are both great cards in their respective decks (again Tom Ross/Robert Leva), and are more powerfull than what comes off in the primer. If i where a new player looking for 8rack decks, i would prob use Tom Ross or Robert Leva, but would then be confused as the primer states that these cards are so bad, that you should not use them, while we have definite proof of the opposite, as in lots of vids/podcast and a top8.
The pros should not be a footnote link (imo).
On the same topic, i would not rank the removal spells in such a manner, since they are mostly meta related and would be discarded since you have them ranked. While i do think its valid to ditch the Go for the Throat in a affinity heavy meta, I would still argue it's top notch removal in a meta with 1 or 2 affinity decks (in my LGS). I think that the list of valid removal is nice, i would not rank it as best to worst, since the list you mentioned is mostly personal and or mete dependent, just remove the best to last, and keep up the good discussion about pros-cons.
After you have assembled your discarding suite, you can look at the win conditions. The deck is called 8Rack because it plays 4 The Rack and 4 Shrieking Affliction, but these numbers are not set in stone. Often you can shave a couple of them to make room for other things without significantly hurting the consistency with which you draw them, especially if you run a card draw engine.
I don't think this is good, It's a little weird to be reading an 8rack primer recommending not running 8 racks, again we come back to the black-x splashes that i think are problematic, not because i think they are bad, but because i don't feel they belong there, make it a big section furter below and i think it would work much better.
Great job on making the primer though, i will post some more later but this is all i have time for. Please do think about what i have said, as i feel it would improve the primer, do feel free to ask questions to what i have said and i will try to explain my thoughts.
You might find changing the layout a bit would help people feel like the primer is less biased. Separating the card choice section from the deck building would let you list all the options and speak about their pros and cons. It would also be easier to read and search through for options when building a deck list. Look at the burn and merfolk primers as examples of primers for decks that are primarily one color but also have a variety of splashes.
on a unrelated topic: In the thoughtsieze section highest is spelled highiest.
exemplary is spelled examplary in the table of contents.
On a second unrelated and potentially more controversial topic: Does anyone else view 8-rack as less of a control deck and more of a tempo deck. 8-rack often wants to end the game before discard loses its value and top decks become more important. Playing the long game is playing to the opponents outs.
The Tom Ross list IS there for those who are willing to take a real look and not just glance over a few decklists. It has a huge spotlight on it as the only thing in the Tournament Results section. Like I already said, I'm going to put it in there with the rest because apparently some people can't be bothered to scroll down past the first five sentences. That's all there is to say on this topic.
You have no basis for making a mardu list the face of 8Rack other than your own personal preference.
You know what? I think I do. I've played this deck almost for as long as you have and probably have a lot more games under my belt than you do. When the old thread hadn't been updated for almost 2 years did you do anything about it? Did somebody else? Well no. You just said on stream some minutes ago that you're not even posting your lists here anymore and that you are going to be doing your own thing on your YouTube channel. That's fine by me. But I'm not going to give up on maintaining the forum because of couple of casuals really like their smallpoxes and pack rats and their irrelevant xmage "results". For as long I am putting it out there for the entire community, writing guides and articles, explaining simple or advanced concepts of the deck that nobody before has even bothered to explain to new players, my personal preference does matter.
@Timba post your glorious xmage list and I'll add it to the primer for those interested in it.
Actually when you mentioned on my livestream you were interested in updating the Primer I immediately messaged KTK and said I was open to the idea of a collab primer. I got no reply at all then all of a sudden this new primer is up. ANd hey, I want to commend the effort put in here. Also I know you do some serious play testing in a scientific manner and I do not disregard that. I won't even suggest you use my list for the "exemplary" list, but you should at least use Ross' list. I feel like putting your own personal list at the top misleads folks glancing over the primer.
Keep in mind 90% of people who look at the primer go right to the recommended list and ignore everything else.
I just saw this :http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13566&d=279834&f=MO
WMCQ Finland with Aki Vainio, finished 2nd with what i would call "core" 8rack deck. He seems to favour the Smallpox and Dismember with Pack Rat in the SB for plan B. I kinda like his list, it seems to be a mix between Roberts list and Tom´s list, which is not a bad thing since it seems we are getting to a point where we all can agree on cards. Also he seems to heavily favor removal.
Thanks for bringing this up. I think this list is way better than Tom Ross'. The rats are in the side to come in only when they are relevant, the core is there, the Cut as a fifth Dismember is very nice tech. LINK to the event (for the lazy). I have to say, the top 8 was jam packed of good matchups. 3 combo decks, Dredge against Lelyline of the Void from the side and 3 other slow decks.
Hey guys, gals and anything in between! I'm trying to implement visual spoilers to the Primer. I need your help. Please tell me if the technology is working for you. Just go to Tom Ross' list right at the beginning of the post and you should see it to the right of it. Please let me know (maybe in a private message, let's not spam the pages of the forum) if the image is loading for you or not. So far I've had really mixed reports from the people I tested it with.
Putting a core list on display was a smart move. Now please, get rid of that janky "8Rack with Asylum Visitor" list and put my recommended list up there.
Further, stop posting lists with less than 4 Raven's Crime.
@Rob:
You know what? I think I do. I've played this deck almost for as long as you have and probably have a lot more games under my belt than you do. When the old thread hadn't been updated for almost 2 years did you do anything about it? Did somebody else? Well no. You just said on stream some minutes ago that you're not even posting your lists here anymore and that you are going to be doing your own thing on your YouTube channel. That's fine by me. But I'm not going to give up on maintaining the forum because of couple of casuals really like their smallpoxes and pack rats and their irrelevant xmage "results". For as long I am putting it out there for the entire community, writing guides and articles, explaining simple or advanced concepts of the deck that nobody before has even bothered to explain to new players, my personal preference does matter.
@Timba post your glorious xmage list and I'll add it to the primer for those interested in it.
At least change the title of the section "How not to build a deck" which sounds very factual (it isn't because you can't back it up with evidence) to something phrased more opinionative like "Popular 8Rack cards I personally don't recommend but YMMV". If you do something like that I will shut up.
Edit: Mind Shatter is just bad btw. You talk about the poor value of Pack Rat but the same principle is applied here. 3mana for 1 card? 4 for 2? 5 for 3? I would rather use Lily, or even Necrogen Mists.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I don'understand why there can't be a primer going into several lists.
UWRWorking on: Pyromancer AscensionUR
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
1. The forum software prevented us from transferring control of the old thread over to Esperino. This is a known software defect with no repair timeline, and it affects all threads on this forum equally. Don't blame Esperino for making a new post; it's standard protocol when someone takes over a primer to create a new one if they can't take over the old one.
2. I agree that lists like Tom Ross's need to be more prominent in the primer. When people Google "8Rack primer" or some variation thereof, they almost always want to see that core mono black list and then learn about variations after.
3. Most importantly, stay respectful and civil when discussing this topic. Do not troll Esperino or attack him personally. It's okay to constructively criticize the primer to improve it, but sarcastic jabs and other disparaging comments are not okay. If you see someone doing this, report them and don't respond; staff will look into it.
Esperino clearly put a lot of time and effort into the primer, so I'm sure we will see improvements and upgrades after some feedback.
Second: Your criticism is very much appreciated. Guess what? I haven't done a Primer for public forums before and for the past day and half all of you have collective shown me what a bad idea that is. Nevertheless, I welcome every opinion that has even the slightest tangibility to it. But the function of Primers is to introduce new players to decks, not cater to the various and often contradicting needs to veterans of the field. The core of the deck is made up of black cards but the notion that a deck is solely ever mono-black is ridiculous. There are many ways to play the deck and many more fields to explore. The post gives ALL of the information and not only the tad bits that some specific people like about it. And yes, it is from MY perspective. Someone has to write the primer and everybody is biased to a degree, even though we try to stay as far away from that as possible.
Looks like our good friends ktkenshinx beat me to it, but a word of warning: I gave it a good day and something to get some critical reviews, which is nothing short of expected, but at this point I'm starting to report non-constructive comments that don't contribute to the discussion.
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
I do appreciate all the effort you put into making it Esperino, i do have some, in my oppinion, valid concerns with the structure of this primer. Since I want us all to have a better primer I'm going to point out some things I want to be revised or improved. While i do agree that 8rack with splash is powerful, I don't agree that the first sections discuss this. There should be a separate section further down, but not all the way, discussing all current splashes and cards to put/notput in the decks, you can refer to the splash builds when you talk about the deck further up, but I don't believe that the splashdecks should be the example or the first decklist that you or new players see.
I honestly voted for a vote on which deck to choose, since I thought you would decide another black-x splash deck, with no real results other than personal experience, sorry my bad I will change my vote.
I also noticed that in the archeotype/Matchup (Which is a great section, nice work!) the videos you use are a player playing mono-black, I feel this is misplaced since the whole section above discusses the splash variants or cards to include in splashes, I think if you want to keep the splash variants in the top, you should use some vids with the splashes. It might just be for sideboard purposes, or to discuss gameplan, but I do feel that they are misplaced.
While it might be my bias coming through, I do believe most here play the mono-black variant of the deck, and it's the deck with most proof and results (see Tom Ross/Robert Leva), I will not speak against them. But i do feel in my heart that the monoblack is the one weight bearing deck, while the splashes are, well... splashes, try to, id possible, to put the monoblack decks in the spotlight.
Onto the cards to include section. I think some of the listed cards are listed because you feel so, not because of results or hard data. While I can see that Smallpox and Pack Rat are not AUTOINCLUDE, I do belive that they are worthy of discussion. They are both great cards in their respective decks (again Tom Ross/Robert Leva), and are more powerfull than what comes off in the primer. If i where a new player looking for 8rack decks, i would prob use Tom Ross or Robert Leva, but would then be confused as the primer states that these cards are so bad, that you should not use them, while we have definite proof of the opposite, as in lots of vids/podcast and a top8.
The pros should not be a footnote link (imo).
On the same topic, i would not rank the removal spells in such a manner, since they are mostly meta related and would be discarded since you have them ranked. While i do think its valid to ditch the Go for the Throat in a affinity heavy meta, I would still argue it's top notch removal in a meta with 1 or 2 affinity decks (in my LGS). I think that the list of valid removal is nice, i would not rank it as best to worst, since the list you mentioned is mostly personal and or mete dependent, just remove the best to last, and keep up the good discussion about pros-cons.
I don't think this is good, It's a little weird to be reading an 8rack primer recommending not running 8 racks, again we come back to the black-x splashes that i think are problematic, not because i think they are bad, but because i don't feel they belong there, make it a big section furter below and i think it would work much better.
Great job on making the primer though, i will post some more later but this is all i have time for. Please do think about what i have said, as i feel it would improve the primer, do feel free to ask questions to what i have said and i will try to explain my thoughts.
on a unrelated topic: In the thoughtsieze section highest is spelled highiest.
exemplary is spelled examplary in the table of contents.
On a second unrelated and potentially more controversial topic: Does anyone else view 8-rack as less of a control deck and more of a tempo deck. 8-rack often wants to end the game before discard loses its value and top decks become more important. Playing the long game is playing to the opponents outs.
Keep in mind 90% of people who look at the primer go right to the recommended list and ignore everything else.
WMCQ Finland with Aki Vainio, finished 2nd with what i would call "core" 8rack deck. He seems to favour the Smallpox and Dismember with Pack Rat in the SB for plan B. I kinda like his list, it seems to be a mix between Roberts list and Tom´s list, which is not a bad thing since it seems we are getting to a point where we all can agree on cards. Also he seems to heavily favor removal.
The deck for the lazy:
17 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dismember
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Murderous Cut
3 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
1 Victim of Night
4 Wrench Mind
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 The Rack
2 Deathmark
3 Disfigure
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
4 Pack Rat
Further, stop posting lists with less than 4 Raven's Crime.
Visual spoiler shows a broken link.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)