Just wait for the primer I clearly point out what is ok to swap and what isn't. Lateral moves are fine as long as all of the slots are being filled. Like if you were on red splash and you wanted to run a copy of Kommand over Wrench thats fine. Its a lateral move and 1x lateral is ok.
I just came back from my LGS FNM-Modern event, Running Rob's stock list with some sidebord modifications and I ended 4-1 and placed 4th place with 26 players. I really feel like Pack Rat is growing on me, especially when it got MVP vs Merfolk round 1. I could get my rats under the bridge and pump them before combat damage, resulting in surprise combat wins, even though the player is a pretty good one. I feel like that the BB turn 2 is true, since Wrench hits so hard which won me 2 rounds as double wrench turn 2 and turn 3 followed by a rack seals almost all of the games. I even found my "budget" Necrogen Mists to win me games vs Ad Nauseum, since he always had a Leyline out. All in all i enjoyed those 5 hours and walked home with double the entry fee :D. I feel that next time i need something else to remove noble Hierarch than Dismember since paying 4 is kinda ouchies, and I wonder if Relic of Progenitus is better than Leyline for graveyard hate vs delve/grixis and dredge.
I'm genuinely surprised that you just suggested subtracting a WM for a spox. I thought the core was "immutable".
If you think about it its a lateral move. Both cards fill the 2 for 1 slot. Same casting cost. They are somewhat interchangeable and it's just 1 copy anyways. I'm willing to make some lateral compromises to accommodate a list with MAX redundancy AND a plan b...
But thats not lateral, Wrench Mind is 2-for-1 card advantage, Spox is 3-for-3 or 2-for-2 removal and more often 2-for-3 than 3-for-2
10/28: 9, 4 rounds
1. RG Prime time. Draw tons of racks, get their hand to 1 w double crime? Pass take 10. They top deck prime time w breach in hand, take 18 to my 17. G2 drop 1 AU bring in 2 extirpate 1 surgical, t1 IoK t2 myth TS. Then Double SA, swing 4 with Myth saying, Idc if you double bolt him. MR gets bigger he tops little. G3 drop the 2nd AU MB to lower my deck to 61. He doesn't board in Baloths, I keep a 2 extirpate hand. T1 Swamp TS the titan. T2 delta, pass, end of draw extirpate his titan see 2/3 scapeshift. T3 get crime and just empty his hand til I extirpate scapeshift. He scoops. 2-1.
2. 1-0. Bogles. Lose g1 got 3 auras on a dude. G2 drop paths for Spox. Take his 1 dude t1. Build up hit 1 spox. Get the win. G3 Keep the MR, Spox Spox 4 land hand. T1 myth t2 Spox hitting temple and Noble Heirarch. Next turn He drops same 2 again. Then t3 I drop spox 2: no land for you. Buff the myth with racks and beat him down. 2-1.
3. 2-0. Affinity. Good back n forth he wins with swarm I had to lili and make him sac a memnarch, feels bad. G2 drop wrench and AU for 2 timely, 2 needle, CB & DB. Mull to 6 off a slow hand. Scry away a 2nd myth. Top a 3rd myth. Ugh. He had the nuts of 3 plating. I t1 IoK away his mox again. Then t2 TS his overseer, missing a myth trigger then shocking and playing myth, ended up not mattering he got Inkmoth then lands to double equip for the infect win. 0-2.
4. 2-1. Jeskai burn. Pathed off his creatures and grinded him down. He topped 3 lands or so. G2 mull 6, much better. Get him hellbent then 2 racks and finish off with CB for drain 2 pass 6. 2-0
3-1, 2nd place.
I like the list. What I'd personally change is lower MR to 3. I never really want to see a 2nd. I think what I did works and going no paths and Spox works, too. And it's because of the core and the new enemy fastlands. Personal preference and meta call. During Bogles I would have been fine with bridge but spox worked out well. VS Affinity when I saw who I was playing I immediately wanted bridges. I love the match because he's a good Affinity player and I know it will be hard games. Anguished Unmaking I could drop down to 1 main 1 SB. Never did I want to bring in the SB so I'll swap that for a 2nd Dark blast now. It never saved the day but since I can run a catch all I'm gonna run at least one. I see wrath of god being too much mana, surprise. I wanted it vs Bogles but saw it next to 4 spox and was like, yeah that'll never get cast. The SB was a rush job since I got to LGS 10 mins before, got 2 more courtyards, and was able to haul butt and get it assembled. Path did do work so I'll keep them in for now same with spox in the board. And I could go up to 23 lands. I did dope the deck but I go to 62 or 61 sometimes with no fear. 63 I think is rougher so 1 or 2 over seems good to me.
10/28: 9, 4 rounds
1. RG Prime time. Draw tons of racks, get their hand to 1 w double crime? Pass take 10. They top deck prime time w breach in hand, take 18 to my 17. G2 drop 1 AU bring in 2 extirpate 1 surgical, t1 IoK t2 myth TS. Then Double SA, swing 4 with Myth saying, Idc if you double bolt him. MR gets bigger he tops little. G3 drop the 2nd AU MB to lower my deck to 61. He doesn't board in Baloths, I keep a 2 extirpate hand. T1 Swamp TS the titan. T2 delta, pass, end of draw extirpate his titan see 2/3 scapeshift. T3 get crime and just empty his hand til I extirpate scapeshift. He scoops. 2-1.
2. 1-0. Bogles. Lose g1 got 3 auras on a dude. G2 drop paths for Spox. Take his 1 dude t1. Build up hit 1 spox. Get the win. G3 Keep the MR, Spox Spox 4 land hand. T1 myth t2 Spox hitting temple and Noble Heirarch. Next turn He drops same 2 again. Then t3 I drop spox 2: no land for you. Buff the myth with racks and beat him down. 2-1.
3. 2-0. Affinity. Good back n forth he wins with swarm I had to lili and make him sac a memnarch, feels bad. G2 drop wrench and AU for 2 timely, 2 needle, CB & DB. Mull to 6 off a slow hand. Scry away a 2nd myth. Top a 3rd myth. Ugh. He had the nuts of 3 plating. I t1 IoK away his mox again. Then t2 TS his overseer, missing a myth trigger then shocking and playing myth, ended up not mattering he got Inkmoth then lands to double equip for the infect win. 0-2.
4. 2-1. Jeskai burn. Pathed off his creatures and grinded him down. He topped 3 lands or so. G2 mull 6, much better. Get him hellbent then 2 racks and finish off with CB for drain 2 pass 6. 2-0
3-1, 2nd place.
I like the list. What I'd personally change is lower MR to 3. I never really want to see a 2nd. I think what I did works and going no paths and Spox works, too. And it's because of the core and the new enemy fastlands. Personal preference and meta call. During Bogles I would have been fine with bridge but spox worked out well. VS Affinity when I saw who I was playing I immediately wanted bridges. I love the match because he's a good Affinity player and I know it will be hard games. Anguished Unmaking I could drop down to 1 main 1 SB. Never did I want to bring in the SB so I'll swap that for a 2nd Dark blast now. It never saved the day but since I can run a catch all I'm gonna run at least one. I see wrath of god being too much mana, surprise. I wanted it vs Bogles but saw it next to 4 spox and was like, yeah that'll never get cast. The SB was a rush job since I got to LGS 10 mins before, got 2 more courtyards, and was able to haul butt and get it assembled. Path did do work so I'll keep them in for now same with spox in the board. And I could go up to 23 lands. I did dope the deck but I go to 62 or 61 sometimes with no fear. 63 I think is rougher so 1 or 2 over seems good to me.
Urborgs only help fetches here
Having 4 Spox in SB isnt a good idea, they transform manacurve greatly
Spoxes are good vs Affinity, I would have used them. Timely Reinforcements are not imo
About going 61+ after sideboard. If your deck is designed well then your curve is perfect. If you have 20 lands and 40 spells, every 2 spells need a land. By going 62 you are missing a land, you curve becomes worse. Mathematically playing 20/63 is almost the same as 19/60. You play one less land, you wont notice it but it will affect your game. Usual reasons to not play 61 card deck apply: you dont want to reduce the probability of drawing your best card by adding your worst card.
I'm genuinely surprised that you just suggested subtracting a WM for a spox. I thought the core was "immutable".
If you think about it its a lateral move. Both cards fill the 2 for 1 slot. Same casting cost. They are somewhat interchangeable and it's just 1 copy anyways. I'm willing to make some lateral compromises to accommodate a list with MAX redundancy AND a plan b...
But thats not lateral, Wrench Mind is 2-for-1 card advantage, Spox is 3-for-3 or 2-for-2 removal and more often 2-for-3 than 3-for-2
1 copy is close enough to not make much difference percentage wise. The point of spox is that we break its symmetry and don't care about our portion of the discard. The deck is made to cannibalize itself with redundancy. Again, its a singleton swap. I'm ok with a lateral singleton.
Yeah, urborg was underwhelming could lower it to 2. OR just swap vents for mutavault. And Spox could be good only for the LD I normally see swarms vs Affinity so as removal it wouldn't help me. And with his nuts draw sorcery speed "removal" wouldn't help at all the LD would. G2 was gonna be a loss regardless. It can easily get better and my spox play can increase.
Yeah, urborg was underwhelming could lower it to 2. OR just swap vents for mutavault. And Spox could be good only for the LD I normally see swarms vs Affinity so as removal it wouldn't help me. And with his nuts draw sorcery speed "removal" wouldn't help at all the LD would. G2 was gonna be a loss regardless. It can easily get better and my spox play can increase.
Well I didnt say you would have won that games had you drawn Spox) just generally I like to see it vs affinity, it slows them down, makes other permanents worse, Lili doesnt do much anyway. Though it is better in my build with removal that supplement it. Path + Spox dont work well together.
The removal you are looking for is Flaying Tendrils, removes multiple creatures at once when other removal struggles.
3-1 at a Modern win a box going 2-0, 2-0, 1-2, 2-1. All games were played on the draw. My round 3 opponent was Tron in which all games were very very close. Round 4 was Merfolk and I lost game 1 on mana flood, drawing 5 lands in a row without outlets to discard them to. I never felt behind in any of the games and I think being on the draw made my opponents keep weaker hands than they normally would because of the knowledge of what deck I was on after game 1. You could see in their faces they didn't want to Mulligan. Rounds 1 and 2 were against B/W Tokens and Abzan Company respectively.
Great work! Maybe this "on the draw" thing should be investigated further, but from what I experimented with this weekend, my winrate was slightly lower than usual when opting to draw. Admittedly it might be my inexperience with playing on the draw (although I don't know what exactly would change when it's done purposefully instead of just playing normally while losing the dice throw) but not being able to Thoughtseize before my opponent had even began playing Magic was a very underwhelming experience. On that subject, I do agree with whomever pointed out that targeted discard gets slightly worse on the draw and that's the reason for running 1 less Thoughtseize. I still maintain that "Turn 1 Thoughtseize" is more valuable than "1 less card for them, 1 more card for us" but with more testing I'm going to revisit that and let you know.
Has anyone tested lost legacy? Seems like an on color and cheaper option to slaughter games. Potential sideboard material. I suppose the draw option isn't great, but if we remove something that's a showstopper like karn or mindslaver...
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Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
Has anyone tested lost legacy? Seems like an on color and cheaper option to slaughter games. Potential sideboard material. I suppose the draw option isn't great, but if we remove something that's a showstopper like karn or mindslaver...
The absolute best part about Surgical Extraction and Extirpate is that 8rack very often has hand information, meaning they can technically behave like extra hand removal; eg: I turn 1 IOK and see 2 bolts. I can pick 1 bolt and extract it to instantly shave an extra card off the hand. A WM or pox the next turn and they're pretty much running on empty.
Lost legacy moves in the opposite direction; if any of the named card is in their hand, they get to replace it. That's pretty terrible.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
So my last FNM playing 8-Whack I ran into arguably the city's best player playing a Prison Control deck - http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13697&d=280696&f=MO - Except his list ran 4 Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard and Ghostly Prison in the MB. What a ridiculous deck for goblins, but also a potentially pretty big problem for 8-Rack as well. In spite of going 4-0 my last outing with 8-Rakdos Death's Shadow version, black and red can't really get rid of enchantments particularly Leyline of Sanctity, so I came up with this Mardu 8-Rack list. Again I don't have the lillies or she'd be in there as a four of. Blightning after initial discard can hit like a ton of bricks. I don't like Path to Exile because I do not want to give my opponents extra resources.
I also love the Myth Realized idea thanks Rob, I find it less gimmicky than Shadow and quite powerful! All for 1CC (I'd really like to run a couple of Smallpox but I'm afraid it will hurt the three colours too much.
So my last FNM playing 8-Whack I ran into arguably the city's best player playing a Prison Control deck - http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13697&d=280696&f=MO - Except his list ran 4 Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard and Ghostly Prison in the MB. What a ridiculous deck for goblins, but also a potentially pretty big problem for 8-Rack as well. In spite of going 4-0 my last outing with 8-Rakdos Death's Shadow version, black and red can't really get rid of enchantments particularly Leyline of Sanctity, so I came up with this Mardu 8-Rack list. Again I don't have the lillies or she'd be in there as a four of. Blightning after initial discard can hit like a ton of bricks. I don't like Path to Exile because I do not want to give my opponents extra resources.
I also love the Myth Realized idea thanks Rob, I find it less gimmicky than Shadow and quite powerful! All for 1CC (I'd really like to run a couple of Smallpox but I'm afraid it will hurt the three colours too much.
I'm I too much on the Wear // Tear plan? Are there any glaring holes in the deck? Three colours too much? Thanks guys.
I played mardu list and decided its not worth it. Too much pain, no manlands, less consistency. There arent many enchantments we want to get rid of. If you want to deal with Leyline, you can play creature build or Smallpox build, creatures in sideboard help.
And Leyline is not a big deal in the first place. Opponent needs to get lucky to open it before he mulligans to 4 or something. And even Leyline in the first 7 is beatable: Lili, Spox, Racks, Afflictions, Mutavault, other creatures all get through it.
I agree with Timba, but i can see the problem with no Lili's. I would run necrogen mists instead, but only as a 2-of. That way you can still discard him through the Leyline.
So my only ranked losses with my MythRack list are against mirror matches! What the hell?! One guy went so far as to foil out his whole mono black deck including foil unhinged lands...
I'm tired of getting out-8rack'd. What are some side board cards for the mirror match? Lets start with the black cards then open it up to any card that would potentially be good in a mirror.
On that note, my mono black stock list with 3 AV, 3 Rat snap in package is by far the best way to win a mirror. MythRack and all other versions lack the clock of the stock list.
So my only ranked losses with my MythRack list are against mirror matches! What the hell?! One guy went so far as to foil out his whole mono black deck including foil unhinged lands...
I'm tired of getting out-8rack'd. What are some side board cards for the mirror match? Lets start with the black cards then open it up to any card that would potentially be good in a mirror.
On that note, my mono black stock list with 3 AV, 3 Rat snap in package is by far the best way to win a mirror. MythRack and all other versions lack the clock of the stock list.
8Rack is a bad choice to have a sideboard plan against. It's statistically irrelevant in the metagame and such an unlikely occurrence that dedicating slots for that is a bad idea. If you have any graveyard hate currently that maybe that can serve some purpose in the mirrors to slow the crimes down a bit, but I don't really see a way to tech specifically against 8Rack with anything other than Leyline of Sanctity and the like. It's easy to target with this specific card (OK, maybe a few others) but it's not worth it. If you think that's your tech against Burn/another highly played deck then maybe.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
4 Concealed Courtyard
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
4 Polluted Delta
2 Shambling Vent
4 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
// Instants
4 Path to Exile
2 Anguished Unmaking
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Thoughtseize
4 Wrench Mind
// Enchantments
4 Myth Realized
4 Shrieking Affliction
// Artifacts
4 The Rack
// Planeswalkers
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Darkblast
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
4 Smallpox
1 Collective Brutality
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wrath of God
10/28: 9, 4 rounds
1. RG Prime time. Draw tons of racks, get their hand to 1 w double crime? Pass take 10. They top deck prime time w breach in hand, take 18 to my 17. G2 drop 1 AU bring in 2 extirpate 1 surgical, t1 IoK t2 myth TS. Then Double SA, swing 4 with Myth saying, Idc if you double bolt him. MR gets bigger he tops little. G3 drop the 2nd AU MB to lower my deck to 61. He doesn't board in Baloths, I keep a 2 extirpate hand. T1 Swamp TS the titan. T2 delta, pass, end of draw extirpate his titan see 2/3 scapeshift. T3 get crime and just empty his hand til I extirpate scapeshift. He scoops. 2-1.
2. 1-0. Bogles. Lose g1 got 3 auras on a dude. G2 drop paths for Spox. Take his 1 dude t1. Build up hit 1 spox. Get the win. G3 Keep the MR, Spox Spox 4 land hand. T1 myth t2 Spox hitting temple and Noble Heirarch. Next turn He drops same 2 again. Then t3 I drop spox 2: no land for you. Buff the myth with racks and beat him down. 2-1.
3. 2-0. Affinity. Good back n forth he wins with swarm I had to lili and make him sac a memnarch, feels bad. G2 drop wrench and AU for 2 timely, 2 needle, CB & DB. Mull to 6 off a slow hand. Scry away a 2nd myth. Top a 3rd myth. Ugh. He had the nuts of 3 plating. I t1 IoK away his mox again. Then t2 TS his overseer, missing a myth trigger then shocking and playing myth, ended up not mattering he got Inkmoth then lands to double equip for the infect win. 0-2.
4. 2-1. Jeskai burn. Pathed off his creatures and grinded him down. He topped 3 lands or so. G2 mull 6, much better. Get him hellbent then 2 racks and finish off with CB for drain 2 pass 6. 2-0
3-1, 2nd place.
I like the list. What I'd personally change is lower MR to 3. I never really want to see a 2nd. I think what I did works and going no paths and Spox works, too. And it's because of the core and the new enemy fastlands. Personal preference and meta call. During Bogles I would have been fine with bridge but spox worked out well. VS Affinity when I saw who I was playing I immediately wanted bridges. I love the match because he's a good Affinity player and I know it will be hard games. Anguished Unmaking I could drop down to 1 main 1 SB. Never did I want to bring in the SB so I'll swap that for a 2nd Dark blast now. It never saved the day but since I can run a catch all I'm gonna run at least one. I see wrath of god being too much mana, surprise. I wanted it vs Bogles but saw it next to 4 spox and was like, yeah that'll never get cast. The SB was a rush job since I got to LGS 10 mins before, got 2 more courtyards, and was able to haul butt and get it assembled. Path did do work so I'll keep them in for now same with spox in the board. And I could go up to 23 lands. I did dope the deck but I go to 62 or 61 sometimes with no fear. 63 I think is rougher so 1 or 2 over seems good to me.
Cube
Terricube
Modern
8Rack
Burn
Legacy
Oops, All Spells!
Pox
Having 4 Spox in SB isnt a good idea, they transform manacurve greatly
Spoxes are good vs Affinity, I would have used them. Timely Reinforcements are not imo
About going 61+ after sideboard. If your deck is designed well then your curve is perfect. If you have 20 lands and 40 spells, every 2 spells need a land. By going 62 you are missing a land, you curve becomes worse. Mathematically playing 20/63 is almost the same as 19/60. You play one less land, you wont notice it but it will affect your game. Usual reasons to not play 61 card deck apply: you dont want to reduce the probability of drawing your best card by adding your worst card.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Cube
Terricube
Modern
8Rack
Burn
Legacy
Oops, All Spells!
Pox
The removal you are looking for is Flaying Tendrils, removes multiple creatures at once when other removal struggles.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
3 Wrench Mind
Enchantment (4)
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Liliana of the Veil
Land (24)
4 Mutavault
16 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Instant (5)
4 Dismember
1 Funeral Charm
4 The Rack
1 Asylum Visitor
1 Bile Blight
1 Disfigure
1 Flaying Tendrils
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 Nyxathid
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Smother
3-1 at a Modern win a box going 2-0, 2-0, 1-2, 2-1. All games were played on the draw. My round 3 opponent was Tron in which all games were very very close. Round 4 was Merfolk and I lost game 1 on mana flood, drawing 5 lands in a row without outlets to discard them to. I never felt behind in any of the games and I think being on the draw made my opponents keep weaker hands than they normally would because of the knowledge of what deck I was on after game 1. You could see in their faces they didn't want to Mulligan. Rounds 1 and 2 were against B/W Tokens and Abzan Company respectively.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
The absolute best part about Surgical Extraction and Extirpate is that 8rack very often has hand information, meaning they can technically behave like extra hand removal; eg: I turn 1 IOK and see 2 bolts. I can pick 1 bolt and extract it to instantly shave an extra card off the hand. A WM or pox the next turn and they're pretty much running on empty.
Lost legacy moves in the opposite direction; if any of the named card is in their hand, they get to replace it. That's pretty terrible.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I also love the Myth Realized idea thanks Rob, I find it less gimmicky than Shadow and quite powerful! All for 1CC (I'd really like to run a couple of Smallpox but I'm afraid it will hurt the three colours too much.
4 Thoughtseize
4 Raven's Crime
4 Wrench Mind
3 Blightning
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Myth Realized
4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
1 Terminate
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
2 Swamp
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Wear // Tear
2 Rest in Peace
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Death's Shadow
1 Collective Brutality
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Path to Exile
1 Anguished Unmaking
I'm I too much on the Wear // Tear plan? Are there any glaring holes in the deck? Three colours too much? Thanks guys.
Legacy: Pox, R/B Goblins
Commander: Mono Black, Mono Blue
Pauper: Goblins
And Leyline is not a big deal in the first place. Opponent needs to get lucky to open it before he mulligans to 4 or something. And even Leyline in the first 7 is beatable: Lili, Spox, Racks, Afflictions, Mutavault, other creatures all get through it.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
I'm tired of getting out-8rack'd. What are some side board cards for the mirror match? Lets start with the black cards then open it up to any card that would potentially be good in a mirror.
On that note, my mono black stock list with 3 AV, 3 Rat snap in package is by far the best way to win a mirror. MythRack and all other versions lack the clock of the stock list.
8Rack is a bad choice to have a sideboard plan against. It's statistically irrelevant in the metagame and such an unlikely occurrence that dedicating slots for that is a bad idea. If you have any graveyard hate currently that maybe that can serve some purpose in the mirrors to slow the crimes down a bit, but I don't really see a way to tech specifically against 8Rack with anything other than Leyline of Sanctity and the like. It's easy to target with this specific card (OK, maybe a few others) but it's not worth it. If you think that's your tech against Burn/another highly played deck then maybe.