I got this deck on MTGO, haven't gotten the LotV yet, but even playing a "Budget" version without her I am doing pretty good in the Tournament Practice Lobby. Had 2 players quit the entire match after I dropped 4 Discard spells on them in Game 1. Actually got to play out a match against BW Tokens and BG Midrange. Smoked both of them with continuous disruption and either Mutavault beat down or stringing them up on the Rack. This deck has always seemed to suffer from the lack of a one-mana universal removal spell and Fatal Push answered the call. Haven't played much too top tier, one of the players who quit the whole match was playing Jeskai Control and didn't like when I made him discard his Snappy. I will try to record and post some matches later.
How the hell can this deck beats aggro decks without maindeck ensnaring bridge?
Removal and discard spells? This deck evidently can't control the game forever against aggro. So, here is more or less what you do:
- put a high priority on game 1 hands that have at least one rack effect. That way you know you will be able to effectively race an aggro deck.
- discard their threats like creatures and let them have their reactive spells that do nothing, such as path to exile, or their one-shot effects, like a lightning bolt.
- DO NOT cast smallpox until they have a creature out. If you cast smallpox with a creature on your opponent's board you're trading 3-for-3 when all is said and done (1 of your lands, 1 card in hand and smallpox itself vs creature, card and land from your opponent). There are of course exceptions for this, but it is a good guideline.
- If you have a choice between discarding a 2 or lower cost creature and a 3, probably pick the 3, because the 2 dies to our pushes.
- ALWAYS discard the cards that are 2-for-1 against you. Examples: kitchen finks, eternal witness, elvish visionary, voice of ressurgence, snapcaster mage, etc. This deck is a resource denial deck. If you let your opponent 2-for-1 you everytime you're going to lose.
Overall, these are the guidelines. You can greatly improve your matchup against aggro depending on how you tailor your sideboard. I honestly don't think you need to change much, hence why I mostly just have the fourth push for 'rush aggro'. Against big creature decks like Shadow and Eldrazi you can bring the bridges. Against token decks and lingering souls deck you bring the ratchet bombs, because if you don't kill the token they make your sacrifice effects look like crap.
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Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
I got this deck on MTGO, haven't gotten the LotV yet, but even playing a "Budget" version without her I am doing pretty good in the Tournament Practice Lobby. Had 2 players quit the entire match after I dropped 4 Discard spells on them in Game 1. Actually got to play out a match against BW Tokens and BG Midrange. Smoked both of them with continuous disruption and either Mutavault beat down or stringing them up on the Rack. This deck has always seemed to suffer from the lack of a one-mana universal removal spell and Fatal Push answered the call. Haven't played much too top tier, one of the players who quit the whole match was playing Jeskai Control and didn't like when I made him discard his Snappy. I will try to record and post some matches later.
Do you mind sharing you list?
Have you ever played the deck on paper? It's 10x funnier.
Please, share some matches. I'm always down to watch 8rack.
Hey! Long time follower, first time poster. I've loved this deck for a long time but have only recently been able to fully build it and as such find myself in the early awkward stage of trying to find the correct groove. As far my local meta, it seems healthy and diverse but Burn and Vizier combo come to mind as as being more common.
Hey! Long time follower, first time poster. I've loved this deck for a long time but have only recently been able to fully build it and as such find myself in the early awkward stage of trying to find the correct groove. As far my local meta, it seems healthy and diverse but Burn and Vizier combo come to mind as as being more common.
Unless you're very happy with Necrogen Mists, you could swap it for a Collective Brutality and find some room in the sideboard for at least one more. That's probably the best card to help out in both Burn and Vizier matchups, but it's never a dead card otherwise.
I've been testing this deck on Cockatrice for the last days. I started with Tom Ross' list and made changes and more changes until I was satisfied. I will say one thing about this deck: I don't understand why it is not at least tier 2. I've been winning almost all matches I've played, including against some top tier decks like scapeshift, burn, eldrazi tron and storm. It completely baffles me as to why more people don't pick up the deck.
Two things I will say: 1) I tested Liliana, the Last Hope in the main and in the side and I didn't like it. She virtually only has two modes in our deck: the +1 and the ultimate. If her +1 is not good on the match, she basically sits there doing nothing until she can reach the ultimate; 2) Delirium Skeins is some sick sideboard tech. Not only is it good against Leyline, it is also good against chalice of the void.
When I played this deck in the past I didn't run smallpox in the list, and boy was I wrong. This card put this deck over the top to me. I think this is very easily one of the most powerful decks in modern. We interact and disrupt the gameplan of every other deck while being redundant with our own. Most games I lost was due to color screw (drawing too many mutavaults) or mana screw. I'm also still mastering the details of sideboarding, but I'm getting better and more consistent at it and I can explain my choice of cards if anyone wants to know. Cheers.
Hey, I just recently purchased this deck after playing Lantern Control/Jeskai/Elves for a while, I figured it was time to spice it up! I was wondering if lists run any other form of creature removal like Damnation other than the fatal push 4x and LoV?
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Hey, I just recently purchased this deck after playing Lantern Control/Jeskai/Elves for a while, I figured it was time to spice it up! I was wondering if lists run any other form of creature removal like Damnation other than the fatal push 4x and LoV?
Bontu's Last Reckoning in the SB and maybe a single Dismember in the 75.
I dropped dismember from the deck last week and didn't really find myself missing it. I played Merfolk, homebrew Zoo, Mono W Control/Devotion homebrew, 5 Color Death's Shadow. I didn't find myself needing it, but I definitely did feel myself wanting more removal during those matches.
I think 4 of FP or 3/1 FP:Dismember is the way to go.
I did sideboard in Bontu's, which was supremely helpful. Now my internal debate has shifted to using Bridge, or Bontu's. Bridge is nice because it's a permanent state of denying the opponent the ability to attack, whereas Bontu's is a 1 shot sweeper. Both face various removal/counter abilities, but it seems like Artifact hate is generally down these days, at least in my meta.
I have used Bontu's for a few weeks now and the sweep is definitely nice, but unless I'm able to close the game shortly therafter, the board is full pretty quickly. Specifically thinking back to my matches against Allies and Elves, where my opponents top decked CoCo and other draw generators that allowed them to amass a good size creature base within a few turns.
I will post on the forums, where I have threads, when I am streaming. I am going to try and stream tonight, probably around 7pm CST. I will be playing in the tournament practice lobby until I get the Lilianas (Blackmail has been working surprisingly well). All my streams I record and post to my Twitch videos area and to my Youtube channel.
My list is "budget" right now, I am a little ways off from getting the Liliana of the Veils and am running 4 Blackmails in her place. Everything else is close to Tom Ross's list, in tonight's planned stream I will do a quick once over of my list.
unfortunately havent had time to watch your streams, but skimmed through them. How has delirium skeins doing for you? I'm on the fence on that card and would prefer bringing in a playset of pack rat sb for playset of smallpox out, to change our gameplan from black control, to black aggro
unfortunately havent had time to watch your streams, but skimmed through them. How has delirium skeins doing for you? I'm on the fence on that card and would prefer bringing in a playset of pack rat sb for playset of smallpox out, to change our gameplan from black control, to black aggro
Haven't gotten a chance to side it in as I have not faced a deck with Leylines or other player hexproof cards.
Hey everyone, I haven't posted here in a while but I'm a long time 8-Rack player.
I was watching the Tom Ross videos from a few days ago and I was wondering what peoples opinions are about taking the draw. I have traditionally only taken the draw against the heaviest control decks. Basically Jeskai control and nothing else. Tom seems to think it is correct to to take the draw nearly always. I'm willing to try out his approach but wanted to get a few more opinions.
Hey everyone, I haven't posted here in a while but I'm a long time 8-Rack player.
I was watching the Tom Ross videos from a few days ago and I was wondering what peoples opinions are about taking the draw. I have traditionally only taken the draw against the heaviest control decks. Basically Jeskai control and nothing else. Tom seems to think it is correct to to take the draw nearly always. I'm willing to try out his approach but wanted to get a few more opinions.
When do you all choose to draw rather than play?
When a T1 disruption is imperative. Aggro decks where the ramp is very quick, such as elves, being the most obvious. The ability to drop a mana dork T1 and then ramp quickly from there means getting ahead of the play is important. Against decks with their own hand disruption, you may also want to take the play.
That has been my experience and preference.
Edit: To expand on the rationale for doing so, suppose that may be important...
Aggro decks and decks with a number of T1 options that build into T2 and T3 threats that you can't outpace are a problem. If you take the play and can disrupt T1 and cascade that disruption into T2 and T3, you can keep pace.
T1 - Hand disruption via targeted removal like Thoughtseize or Inquisition
T2 - Push the mana dork or Smallpox or more hand disruption
T3 - More of the same
By getting ahead of the threats, you're limiting their ability to ramp up and flood the field with things you can't deal with and keep the threats in their hand, where you can deal with them. The threats that do make it to the field, you can deal with via your 5-7 targeted removal spells in the form of Push, Charm, and Dismember or you can flat out ignore them because they are low power creatures that don't create a fast enough clock to outpace your rack effects.
So, an elf deck is going to have some mana dorks in hand, some lands, maybe a draw creature, and then a buff creature or two. Their T1 and T2 plays are going to be the mana dorks so they can flood the field as quickly as possible and overwhelm you with creatures. Turn 3 is a buff creature so all of the 1/1s turn into 2/2+. If you can disrupt the mana generation in T1 and T2, it puts them back a couple of turns because the deck often runs light on lands, relying on the dorks to make up for it.
Because you've disrupted the mana generation, you are then only left with 1 - 2 threats on the field in Turn 3 and 4, versus 4+ threats on the field. This allows you to destroy the most dangerous threat on the field and keep eliminating threats from their hand. Hopefully, by T3/4 they're left with 0-1 cards in hand and 1 - 2 threats on the field. From there, you can eliminate their hand and hopefully draw into removal to deal with the top deck threats they do manage to cast. Then it's a race with the rack effects.
Aggro is a rough matchup because of how quickly the threats move from the hand, where we disrupt, to the field, where we have limited disruption. That's why a lot of the sideboards you see are heavy on the removal spells (Bontus, Ratchet, etc.) By taking the play in those matches, you disrupt their T1, which they use, more than most decks, to very quickly ramp T2 and T3.
I have been playing monoblack 8 rack for about 2 years. Reading everything one can and reading/contributing to forums I would say that you take the draw in all cases except the following 3 cases. The reason being that the mulligan rule encourages people to go down a card and try again. With 8 rack this means game 1 your opponent will be encouraged to go from 7 to 6 and perhaps beyond on the play. This makes your objective of getting them to zero cardsin their hand so much easier and if they end up mana screwed then it can be game over with your smallpox. The exceptions are Affinity where you need to get two looks and opportunities to discard any Cranial Platings which really is a game winner if it gets on the board. The second is against Grixis Control running Ancestral Visions as you need to get this out of their hand before they play it turn 1. Similarly any deck able to play out a Chalice on 1, turn 1 such as Sun and Moon but of course this is a very rare deck to see these days.
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I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
- put a high priority on game 1 hands that have at least one rack effect. That way you know you will be able to effectively race an aggro deck.
- discard their threats like creatures and let them have their reactive spells that do nothing, such as path to exile, or their one-shot effects, like a lightning bolt.
- DO NOT cast smallpox until they have a creature out. If you cast smallpox with a creature on your opponent's board you're trading 3-for-3 when all is said and done (1 of your lands, 1 card in hand and smallpox itself vs creature, card and land from your opponent). There are of course exceptions for this, but it is a good guideline.
- If you have a choice between discarding a 2 or lower cost creature and a 3, probably pick the 3, because the 2 dies to our pushes.
- ALWAYS discard the cards that are 2-for-1 against you. Examples: kitchen finks, eternal witness, elvish visionary, voice of ressurgence, snapcaster mage, etc. This deck is a resource denial deck. If you let your opponent 2-for-1 you everytime you're going to lose.
Overall, these are the guidelines. You can greatly improve your matchup against aggro depending on how you tailor your sideboard. I honestly don't think you need to change much, hence why I mostly just have the fourth push for 'rush aggro'. Against big creature decks like Shadow and Eldrazi you can bring the bridges. Against token decks and lingering souls deck you bring the ratchet bombs, because if you don't kill the token they make your sacrifice effects look like crap.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Do you mind sharing you list?
Have you ever played the deck on paper? It's 10x funnier.
Please, share some matches. I'm always down to watch 8rack.
Suggestions? Thoughts? Concerns?
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Raven's Crime
4x Smallpox
2x Thoughtseize
1x Blackmail
3x Wrench Mind
Enchantment (5)
4x Shrieking Affliction
1x Necrogen Mists
4x The Rack
Land (24)
1x Dakmor Salvage
4x Mutavault
15x Swamp
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Instant (5)
1x Dismember
3x Fatal Push
1x Funeral Charm
4x Liliana of the Veil
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Bile Blight
2x Flaying Tendrils
1x Syphon Life
4x Delirium Skeins
1x Gurmag Angler
WUBRG Sliver Queen 5 Color Super Friend Tokens GRBUW
RRR Zada, Hedron GrinderJohnny RedRRR
I will post the recordings later. Just doing Tournament Practice mode, nothing fancy. My first time streaming
Games here: https://youtu.be/PrEtwAetHwg
I need to up my recording quality next time, the card text isn't very legible. Still new to this.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
Welcome. o/
Unless you're very happy with Necrogen Mists, you could swap it for a Collective Brutality and find some room in the sideboard for at least one more. That's probably the best card to help out in both Burn and Vizier matchups, but it's never a dead card otherwise.
I watched the replay on Twitch. Fun matches, as always, specially match 2 game 2. lol
I would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks!
Bontu's Last Reckoning in the SB and maybe a single Dismember in the 75.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
I think 4 of FP or 3/1 FP:Dismember is the way to go.
I did sideboard in Bontu's, which was supremely helpful. Now my internal debate has shifted to using Bridge, or Bontu's. Bridge is nice because it's a permanent state of denying the opponent the ability to attack, whereas Bontu's is a 1 shot sweeper. Both face various removal/counter abilities, but it seems like Artifact hate is generally down these days, at least in my meta.
I have used Bontu's for a few weeks now and the sweep is definitely nice, but unless I'm able to close the game shortly therafter, the board is full pretty quickly. Specifically thinking back to my matches against Allies and Elves, where my opponents top decked CoCo and other draw generators that allowed them to amass a good size creature base within a few turns.
My list is "budget" right now, I am a little ways off from getting the Liliana of the Veils and am running 4 Blackmails in her place. Everything else is close to Tom Ross's list, in tonight's planned stream I will do a quick once over of my list.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
Vs the UB deck you should've retraced the Mutavault in my opinion, hitting him for 6 in his upkeep and lethal next turn if he played anything.
If I notice anything else I'll edit it in here
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
I was watching the Tom Ross videos from a few days ago and I was wondering what peoples opinions are about taking the draw. I have traditionally only taken the draw against the heaviest control decks. Basically Jeskai control and nothing else. Tom seems to think it is correct to to take the draw nearly always. I'm willing to try out his approach but wanted to get a few more opinions.
When do you all choose to draw rather than play?
When a T1 disruption is imperative. Aggro decks where the ramp is very quick, such as elves, being the most obvious. The ability to drop a mana dork T1 and then ramp quickly from there means getting ahead of the play is important. Against decks with their own hand disruption, you may also want to take the play.
That has been my experience and preference.
Edit: To expand on the rationale for doing so, suppose that may be important...
Aggro decks and decks with a number of T1 options that build into T2 and T3 threats that you can't outpace are a problem. If you take the play and can disrupt T1 and cascade that disruption into T2 and T3, you can keep pace.
T1 - Hand disruption via targeted removal like Thoughtseize or Inquisition
T2 - Push the mana dork or Smallpox or more hand disruption
T3 - More of the same
By getting ahead of the threats, you're limiting their ability to ramp up and flood the field with things you can't deal with and keep the threats in their hand, where you can deal with them. The threats that do make it to the field, you can deal with via your 5-7 targeted removal spells in the form of Push, Charm, and Dismember or you can flat out ignore them because they are low power creatures that don't create a fast enough clock to outpace your rack effects.
So, an elf deck is going to have some mana dorks in hand, some lands, maybe a draw creature, and then a buff creature or two. Their T1 and T2 plays are going to be the mana dorks so they can flood the field as quickly as possible and overwhelm you with creatures. Turn 3 is a buff creature so all of the 1/1s turn into 2/2+. If you can disrupt the mana generation in T1 and T2, it puts them back a couple of turns because the deck often runs light on lands, relying on the dorks to make up for it.
Because you've disrupted the mana generation, you are then only left with 1 - 2 threats on the field in Turn 3 and 4, versus 4+ threats on the field. This allows you to destroy the most dangerous threat on the field and keep eliminating threats from their hand. Hopefully, by T3/4 they're left with 0-1 cards in hand and 1 - 2 threats on the field. From there, you can eliminate their hand and hopefully draw into removal to deal with the top deck threats they do manage to cast. Then it's a race with the rack effects.
Aggro is a rough matchup because of how quickly the threats move from the hand, where we disrupt, to the field, where we have limited disruption. That's why a lot of the sideboards you see are heavy on the removal spells (Bontus, Ratchet, etc.) By taking the play in those matches, you disrupt their T1, which they use, more than most decks, to very quickly ramp T2 and T3.