That's wrong, the rack doesn't target. Oracle text says only "choose a player".
4th ed. Text is no longer effective.
So a rack played after a t0 leyline can beat your opponent.
This is correct. Also, Shrieking affliction still gets through as well.
Correct. Judge confirmation. I also questioned whether The Rack was handcuffed by Leyline of Sanctity, having thought I once read that it was, but the ruling is that the rack effects from both cards get through.
I know that many people, including Tom Ross, really like this card in the deck. The ability to utilize Mutavault of Ghost Quarter generated mana, with the phyrexian mana, to get a cast off and destroy a creature is very useful for this deck. Additionally, it can get around "Indestructible".
However, I question the overall utility and value of the card in the deck, given that Fatal Push is available and will destroy most everything you would target with Dismember. It also, obviously, has the lower mana cost, but cannot be cast off of colorless mana.
I expressed before that I wanted to take Dismember out of the deck, but I'm wondering if that's the correct decision. Clearly, the card is played by pro level players of the deck for a reason, so I'm trying to have an objective view of the value of the card versus other options, like: Fatal Push, Go for the Throat, Murderous Cut, Slaughter Pact, Doom Blade, etc.
Each has its pro/cons, but what makes the most sense for this deck and why?
Tom Ross advocated for dismember when Fatal Push didn't exist. Dismember as a 4 of is no longer viable IMO. My current build runs 1 Dismember and I am going to take it out for a lil the last hope once the planeswalker rules change. Its really just another piece of removal that can get rid of something small so your smallpox/lily can take care of anything big.
I do run 4 Fatal Push main as well and I think 4 of main is just where we want to be with this deck.
Tom Ross advocated for dismember when Fatal Push didn't exist. Dismember as a 4 of is no longer viable IMO. My current build runs 1 Dismember and I am going to take it out for a lil the last hope once the planeswalker rules change. Its really just another piece of removal that can get rid of something small so your smallpox/lily can take care of anything big.
I do run 4 Fatal Push main as well and I think 4 of main is just where we want to be with this deck.
The jist of it is that Tom advocates 3 x FP and 2 x Dismember. Penner ran that same ratio in his almost-Top-8 finish.
Even with Push available, these 2 at least, are running Dismember main board still (or were as of February 2017). I'm wondering if that remains the correct choice or if, as you said, 4 x FP + 1 of Dismember or something else makes more sense.
The only things I seem to run across that a FP doesn't take care of are "Indestructible". However, the "Indestructible"s that I have seen wouldn't have been taken care of by a Dismember anyways, because the toughness was too high. It would have certainly reduced the damage for a turn, but it would not have killed the creature or brought it low enough for a blocker to finish the job. Otherwise, the ability to cast Dismember off of colorless mana is the only upside I see, at the expense of either 2-4 life or 1-2 black sources.
I run 3 Push 3 Dismember. I could see 4/2 or 3/2. Dismember shores up what Push can't hit which is mainly the Delve Dudes: Tasigur, the Golden FangGurmag Angler.
If your meta lacks Grixis AND you can reliably trigger revolt for Fatal Push, don't run Dismember. Otherwise I think my set up works. When game 2 happens I usually trim or drop from one or the other.
Ixalan gives us a new rack of sorts, in the form of Raiders' Wake. It is more of a machine gun rack as it is repeatable, giving a shock effect for each discard spell you play and successfully land. It also works when you attack. The only downside, the cost. Four mana might be too prohibitive for the current builds of 8Rack.
4 mana is way to high. if you wanted an effect like this, liliana's caress is just so much better
Video is ok, play is suboptimal but decent for someone who doesn't pilot this deck all the time. I think how many fatal push vs dismember main is directly rated to what your expecting in the meta game. If I expect to face a ton of etron, bant eldrazi, bigger cmc midrange decks I would pack more dismembers. In this current meta I'm a 4 fatal push guy main maybe 1 dismember as well.
Video is ok, play is suboptimal but decent for someone who doesn't pilot this deck all the time. I think how many fatal push vs dismember main is directly rated to what your expecting in the meta game. If I expect to face a ton of etron, bant eldrazi, bigger cmc midrange decks I would pack more dismembers. In this current meta I'm a 4 fatal push guy main maybe 1 dismember as well.
Truly, I think you're correct that the # of Dismember is directly related to the meta. The past few weeks, I've found it useless in my local meta. This week, it was useful, as I played against Tron and dredge creatures that were out of Fatal Push range. Decks I didn't need it against, it was an easy sideboard out card.
I like the 4:2 split, with 1-2 Funeral Charm, which I enjoy playing against guys that just laugh at it. I attacked with Mutavault against an opponent's planeswalker, charmed, choosing +2/-1, planeswalker dies. That laughter quickly turned to, "WTF just happened?!?!"
Video is ok, play is suboptimal but decent for someone who doesn't pilot this deck all the time. I think how many fatal push vs dismember main is directly rated to what your expecting in the meta game. If I expect to face a ton of etron, bant eldrazi, bigger cmc midrange decks I would pack more dismembers. In this current meta I'm a 4 fatal push guy main maybe 1 dismember as well.
the video isnt too bad. it highlights the need for another colour, as most of his games get wrecked by leyline of sanctity
delirium skeins seems like a great response to both chalice and leyline !
therefore Tom Ross don't spend any slot for cards such as ratchet bomb or engineered explosifs.
I will try it very soon !
I noticed that he didn't side out the wrench mind when playing against E-tron !
very interesting !
Didn't side out Wrench Mind v Tron and is only running 1x Dismember now.
Tom Ross, also on Day 2 stream: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/175466969, trying to skim through to find his matches: ~2:11 (boo, it is only a partial match ), ~3:31 (full match against 5-color Death's Shadow, awesome play in the last match from a SB card ), ~6:14 match is first of Top 8 (Tom's match won the home "vote to watch", ofc), Tom's last match shown ~7:00 .
The cast did mention that Tom Ross is still working on the SB, which kinda seems like the case with all the 4s and 1s.
So, first time here on this thread. 8-rack, along with merfolk, is one of the few modern decks I enjoy playing.
I'm curious: do you guys think the planeswalker change will benefit us? I modified tom ross' list by cutting two funeral charms and adding two liliana, the last hope (I also changed the sideboard because I was feeling the lack of ensnaring bridges). What do you guys think? Second liliana might be good?
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Have been playing the mono-black version of the deck frequently over the last 5 months and wanted to share where my list is currently at after all my play-testing. Hoping to get some feedback from others who still play a non-smallpox, bridge version of the deck (was playing both smallpox and bridge for a while, but felt smallpox was hurting me as much as my opponent in terms of trying to get to 3 mana for bridge and Liliana).
Special mention goes to Bitterblossom which I feel has really upped the power level in my deck and provides an awesome alternate win-con that synergizes amazingly with bridge.
So, first time here on this thread. 8-rack, along with merfolk, is one of the few modern decks I enjoy playing.
I'm curious: do you guys think the planeswalker change will benefit us? I modified tom ross' list by cutting two funeral charms and adding two liliana, the last hope (I also changed the sideboard because I was feeling the lack of ensnaring bridges). What do you guys think? Second liliana might be good?
I definitely think another grind source is needed as the games where the opponent got over 4 lands became a real slog for Tom (his loss against Jeskai Control in Top 4 was painful to watch). I think Liliana, the Last Hope is at least worth testing (I am not sure what I would drop for her). Her -2 would also support running some creatures in our SB (Asylum Visitor and Pack Rat jump to mind). which would give us some better grind and if we can get her Emblem... Game Over.
So, first time here on this thread. 8-rack, along with merfolk, is one of the few modern decks I enjoy playing.
I'm curious: do you guys think the planeswalker change will benefit us? I modified tom ross' list by cutting two funeral charms and adding two liliana, the last hope (I also changed the sideboard because I was feeling the lack of ensnaring bridges). What do you guys think? Second liliana might be good?
I definitely think another grind source is needed as the games where the opponent got over 4 lands became a real slog for Tom (his loss against Jeskai Control in Top 4 was painful to watch). I think Liliana, the Last Hope is at least worth testing (I am not sure what I would drop for her). Her -2 would also support running some creatures in our SB (Asylum Visitor and Pack Rat jump to mind). which would give us some better grind and if we can get her Emblem... Game Over.
bitterblosom obb nixilis empty the pyts dark confidant ... Jejeje
Ob Nixilis and Empty the Pits both seem extremely expensive for a deck running Smallpox. I could see Dark Confidant and Bitterblossoms, but the latter needs a LOT of build-up and it is killing us while doing so, I think it is better in something more Aggro where you want lots of bodies. What we need is something cheap that also doesn't kill us.
Have been playing the mono-black version of the deck frequently over the last 5 months and wanted to share where my list is currently at after all my play-testing. Hoping to get some feedback from others who still play a non-smallpox, bridge version of the deck (was playing both smallpox and bridge for a while, but felt smallpox was hurting me as much as my opponent in terms of trying to get to 3 mana for bridge and Liliana).
Special mention goes to Bitterblossom which I feel has really upped the power level in my deck and provides an awesome alternate win-con that synergizes amazingly with bridge.
I'm currently messing around with a build that includes Liliana, the Last Hope. This is where I'm at at the moment.
Also, I ran 3 Fatal Push with 2 Dismember for a very long time. Now I've exchanged one Dismember for a main Bontu's Last Reckoning which performs well.
I've been testing this deck on Cockatrice for the last days. I started with Tom Ross' list and made changes and more changes until I was satisfied. I will say one thing about this deck: I don't understand why it is not at least tier 2. I've been winning almost all matches I've played, including against some top tier decks like scapeshift, burn, eldrazi tron and storm. It completely baffles me as to why more people don't pick up the deck.
Two things I will say: 1) I tested Liliana, the Last Hope in the main and in the side and I didn't like it. She virtually only has two modes in our deck: the +1 and the ultimate. If her +1 is not good on the match, she basically sits there doing nothing until she can reach the ultimate; 2) Delirium Skeins is some sick sideboard tech. Not only is it good against Leyline, it is also good against chalice of the void.
When I played this deck in the past I didn't run smallpox in the list, and boy was I wrong. This card put this deck over the top to me. I think this is very easily one of the most powerful decks in modern. We interact and disrupt the gameplan of every other deck while being redundant with our own. Most games I lost was due to color screw (drawing too many mutavaults) or mana screw. I'm also still mastering the details of sideboarding, but I'm getting better and more consistent at it and I can explain my choice of cards if anyone wants to know. Cheers.
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Correct. Judge confirmation. I also questioned whether The Rack was handcuffed by Leyline of Sanctity, having thought I once read that it was, but the ruling is that the rack effects from both cards get through.
Unrelated to that...Dismember.
I know that many people, including Tom Ross, really like this card in the deck. The ability to utilize Mutavault of Ghost Quarter generated mana, with the phyrexian mana, to get a cast off and destroy a creature is very useful for this deck. Additionally, it can get around "Indestructible".
However, I question the overall utility and value of the card in the deck, given that Fatal Push is available and will destroy most everything you would target with Dismember. It also, obviously, has the lower mana cost, but cannot be cast off of colorless mana.
I expressed before that I wanted to take Dismember out of the deck, but I'm wondering if that's the correct decision. Clearly, the card is played by pro level players of the deck for a reason, so I'm trying to have an objective view of the value of the card versus other options, like: Fatal Push, Go for the Throat, Murderous Cut, Slaughter Pact, Doom Blade, etc.
Each has its pro/cons, but what makes the most sense for this deck and why?
I do run 4 Fatal Push main as well and I think 4 of main is just where we want to be with this deck.
I agree that 4 of Dismember does not seem correct these days. However, I was internally referencing this article, when posting my question: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/34621_8-Rack-Makes-A-Splash.html
The jist of it is that Tom advocates 3 x FP and 2 x Dismember. Penner ran that same ratio in his almost-Top-8 finish.
Even with Push available, these 2 at least, are running Dismember main board still (or were as of February 2017). I'm wondering if that remains the correct choice or if, as you said, 4 x FP + 1 of Dismember or something else makes more sense.
The only things I seem to run across that a FP doesn't take care of are "Indestructible". However, the "Indestructible"s that I have seen wouldn't have been taken care of by a Dismember anyways, because the toughness was too high. It would have certainly reduced the damage for a turn, but it would not have killed the creature or brought it low enough for a blocker to finish the job. Otherwise, the ability to cast Dismember off of colorless mana is the only upside I see, at the expense of either 2-4 life or 1-2 black sources.
If your meta lacks Grixis AND you can reliably trigger revolt for Fatal Push, don't run Dismember. Otherwise I think my set up works. When game 2 happens I usually trim or drop from one or the other.
Cube
Terricube
Modern
Legacy
4 mana is way to high. if you wanted an effect like this, liliana's caress is just so much better
Truly, I think you're correct that the # of Dismember is directly related to the meta. The past few weeks, I've found it useless in my local meta. This week, it was useful, as I played against Tron and dredge creatures that were out of Fatal Push range. Decks I didn't need it against, it was an easy sideboard out card.
I like the 4:2 split, with 1-2 Funeral Charm, which I enjoy playing against guys that just laugh at it. I attacked with Mutavault against an opponent's planeswalker, charmed, choosing +2/-1, planeswalker dies. That laughter quickly turned to, "WTF just happened?!?!"
the video isnt too bad. it highlights the need for another colour, as most of his games get wrecked by leyline of sanctity
or a great card vs some draw
Cube
Terricube
Modern
Legacy
Didn't side out Wrench Mind v Tron and is only running 1x Dismember now.
The cast did mention that Tom Ross is still working on the SB, which kinda seems like the case with all the 4s and 1s.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
I'm curious: do you guys think the planeswalker change will benefit us? I modified tom ross' list by cutting two funeral charms and adding two liliana, the last hope (I also changed the sideboard because I was feeling the lack of ensnaring bridges). What do you guys think? Second liliana might be good?
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Special mention goes to Bitterblossom which I feel has really upped the power level in my deck and provides an awesome alternate win-con that synergizes amazingly with bridge.
4 Raven's Crime
4 Fatal Push
3 Thoughtseize
3 Wrench Mind
4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Bitterblossom
4 Liliana of the Veil
14 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mutavault
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pack Rat
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
2 Collective Brutality
2 Dismember
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Surgical Extraction
I definitely think another grind source is needed as the games where the opponent got over 4 lands became a real slog for Tom (his loss against Jeskai Control in Top 4 was painful to watch). I think Liliana, the Last Hope is at least worth testing (I am not sure what I would drop for her). Her -2 would also support running some creatures in our SB (Asylum Visitor and Pack Rat jump to mind). which would give us some better grind and if we can get her Emblem... Game Over.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
Ob Nixilis and Empty the Pits both seem extremely expensive for a deck running Smallpox. I could see Dark Confidant and Bitterblossoms, but the latter needs a LOT of build-up and it is killing us while doing so, I think it is better in something more Aggro where you want lots of bodies. What we need is something cheap that also doesn't kill us.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
I think you can cut a swamp. 24 lands looks too much if you aren't running Smallpox.
Also, I ran 3 Fatal Push with 2 Dismember for a very long time. Now I've exchanged one Dismember for a main Bontu's Last Reckoning which performs well.
1x Bontu's Last Reckoning
1x Collective Brutality
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Raven's Crime
4x Smallpox
3x Thoughtseize
3x Wrench Mind
Enchantment (4)
4x Shrieking Affliction
Artifact (4)
4x The Rack
1x Dakmor Salvage
2x Ghost Quarter
3x Mutavault
13x Swamp
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Instant (5)
1x Dismember
3x Fatal Push
Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Bontu's Last Reckoning
1x Collective Brutality
1x Gurmag Angler
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Lost Legacy
4x Pack Rat
2x Ratchet Bomb
This is my list on Cockatrice:
// 4 Artifact
4 The Rack
// 4 Enchantment
4 Shrieking Affliction
// 4 Instant
1 Dismember
3 Fatal Push
// 24 Land
4 Mutavault
16 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
// 4 Planeswalker
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
4 Wrench Mind
// 4 Artifact
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb
// 2 Creature
2 Asylum Visitor
4 Leyline of the Void
// 1 Instant
1 Fatal Push
// 4 Sorcery
4 Delirium Skeins
When I played this deck in the past I didn't run smallpox in the list, and boy was I wrong. This card put this deck over the top to me. I think this is very easily one of the most powerful decks in modern. We interact and disrupt the gameplan of every other deck while being redundant with our own. Most games I lost was due to color screw (drawing too many mutavaults) or mana screw. I'm also still mastering the details of sideboarding, but I'm getting better and more consistent at it and I can explain my choice of cards if anyone wants to know. Cheers.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).