Depends on the Match Up. If you're running the Spox build, which myself and most are, you're kinda running the rng of spox and rolling the bones is usually fine. I would say you'd still want a 1 drop removal or Crime Time to pitch or start off with. This is assuming you're on the draw and have 3-4 lands to hit spox/wrench 2x and should hit a land for Lili turn 4. Normally you'd want t1 targeted discard IoK, into a 2 cmc play or 2 more 1cmc discards (Crime into Thoughtseize)
So, it's far from optimal and modern is a turn 1 format but if it's followed up with a 241 value play with 2 spox/wrench mind/collective brutality/lili it could work.
Is it ever correct to keep a hand without any turn 1 discard (IoK, TS, RC etc.) if it has good plays at say 2 and 3. Maybe a Smallpox in a matchup where it´s relevant or Wrench Mind into Lili.
How important is it to get in there right away with discard to disrupt their gameplan?
Game 1 on the draw I might if I had a fatal push or dismember in hand. Its honestly very rare to not have a turn 1 discard we play a lot of them.
Game 2 totally dependent on match up but there is a lot of matches I would keep no turn 1 discard on game 2. Remember most of the time your looking at 8 cards before you make a play so its pretty reasonable that you almost always have a t1 discard.
I play myself amulet titan. I think smallpox is the most powerfull card. You took the right decision, but it is important to try to win quick. Maybe is better a hand with a rack and 1 smallpox and wrench mind or ravens crime. Ones the Amulet player is able to land a titan, the bounce land will prevent you to hit through Racks.
I have another question!
I'm returning to 8 rack and I have issues against burn. What advice can you give to me?
Lil of the last hope does nothing for me in this deck, I am curious if you test it though and your thoughts. On paper it doesn't actually seem to have any modes I want.
Liliana, the Last Hope could potentially be a sideboard option now that she doesn't conflict with Liliana of the Veil. However, with so few creatures in the 75 she's best brought in against creature decks and they're usually all over here and I'd probably just rather run a sweeper again.
I've been struggling lately with having enough pressure in the deck. The number of games I've lost to a strong board position with no way to do damage are just too frustrating. I don't want to mulligan a hand with an amazing curve just to try to find a damage source, but sometimes I feel like I need to. I'm still liking Asylum Visitors in the board for this reason. They can really put on pressure against Valakut, Tron or UW control. It's just frustrating they interact poorly with Smallpox. I like that they're faster that Dark Confidant. They won't draw you a card as reliably, but the madness probably makes up for it.
Bontu's Last Reckoning is the board wipe we need against eldrazi tron and gw. Very good against company decks after ripping them out of hand. You always wait til you have a Liliana on board to wipe so you have value. You can always wipe turn after playing bridge as well. I use 3 reckonings mainboard and has been wailing quite well. Went 3-0 against grixis death shadow. And have beaten living end 2-1. Very hard as it may be. It is possible to win with this one card. Scavenger grounds is a phenomental card by the way. I also run bg 8rack loam pox tho. Cuz ravens crime, qhost quarters, life from the loam and packrats are all good together. Give your recursive discard and land destruction on the decks that would otherwise beat you.
Is there any way Etron can be a good matchup against us? I've tried all iterations....and Etron/Tron gets in my way of prizing at my LGS. I always end up 2-2 every night. If I do beat Tron, i end up just playing another Tron player at higher ranks. Is there anything out there we can bring it to combat Tron specifically?
E Tron will just use walking ballista to kill you through a bridge and it costs them 0 cards in hand to do it.
I think a common misconception in this thread is that bridge wins games and it doesn't. Bridge is not a win con its a stall out. If I am playing merfolk and someone puts a bridge down playing 8 rack I basically just stall out for game one and work on a draw. Bridge IMO is a trap its takes away from what the deck is trying to do and that is get a player to 0 cards and kill them with racks. Personally I think Ratchet Bomb is a way better sideboard card in 8 rack then disenchant. Ratchet bomb is just as good as against chalice and it can be used in so many more applications its good against lingering souls which is a terrible card for us to play against. Its good against affinity maybe better then disenchant depending on affinity players hand. The only card that ratchet bomb is worse against is leyline of sanctity. Leyline of Sanctity is another trap card IMO. The decks that run it our match up is great against already (bogles, ad nauseum)that I don't even care when a leyline is played. Most decks that run leyline mull to get it so even if they mulligan once to get a leyline we have already removed 2 cards from their hand before we have done anything that's pretty sweet value for a discard deck already.
I have been thinking more and more about Liliana the Last Hope and I am going to test it. The fact that it is a win con is interesting and it does help out some of our tougher go wide match ups with its plus 1. I am going to put 1 in my main and 1 in side removing a dismember main for it.
the bridge against etron is great. etron kills attacking. they only play a karn. and if the ratched is only for the chalice remember that against etron you have to play your first one if you give us too much advantage
Just as a FYI... A lot of EldraziTron pilots will run 2 copies of Karn and some have even gone to 3 total in their 75. There is also Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger ran in quite a few ETron decks as well that takes out Bridge. Not trying to incite, just inform.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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The dark confidants are new so I am bringing them in a lot lol I wouldn't recommend some of the sideboarding I do. I do what feels intuitive at the time. I brought DCs in against revolt zoo a few weeks ago in a pptq. Should I have? I don't know it worked and I won. Mainly DC is for a lot of grindy match ups so bgx, u/w control stuff like that where I am assuming a lot of removal has been sideboarded. I will bring them in if I side out a couple racks to which I do against kolaghans command decks and anything that brings in efficient removal like destructive revelry. Fulminators are for tron, ramp type decks and any deck that plays man lands that can get annoying. So affinity I will bring in a couple fulminators because generally I find that match comes down to man lands a fair bit. The 1 gq main is mainly for man lands as well. I don't bring in surgicals a lot in tron match ups because I have lost to tron after I surgical extracted a tron land. Trons a ***** match up and that's just the fact of playing 8 rack. Surgicals are more for snap caster decks, reanimator and grave yard decks. I have basically conceded my dredge match up its abysmal when you have side board for it so screw it.
E Tron will just use walking ballista to kill you through a bridge and it costs them 0 cards in hand to do it.
I think a common misconception in this thread is that bridge wins games and it doesn't. Bridge is not a win con its a stall out. If I am playing merfolk and someone puts a bridge down playing 8 rack I basically just stall out for game one and work on a draw. Bridge IMO is a trap its takes away from what the deck is trying to do and that is get a player to 0 cards and kill them with racks. Personally I think Ratchet Bomb is a way better sideboard card in 8 rack then disenchant. Ratchet bomb is just as good as against chalice and it can be used in so many more applications its good against lingering souls which is a terrible card for us to play against. Its good against affinity maybe better then disenchant depending on affinity players hand. The only card that ratchet bomb is worse against is leyline of sanctity. Leyline of Sanctity is another trap card IMO. The decks that run it our match up is great against already (bogles, ad nauseum)that I don't even care when a leyline is played. Most decks that run leyline mull to get it so even if they mulligan once to get a leyline we have already removed 2 cards from their hand before we have done anything that's pretty sweet value for a discard deck already.
I have been thinking more and more about Liliana the Last Hope and I am going to test it. The fact that it is a win con is interesting and it does help out some of our tougher go wide match ups with its plus 1. I am going to put 1 in my main and 1 in side removing a dismember main for it.
I completely agree. when i used to play bridge, it always put me in a false sense of safety. you stop worrying about the board, and when it gets bounced/removed, you just die because you thought you were invincible
Disenchant doesn't help you. Chalice on 1 is what kills us. Disenchant costs 1.
Currently I've been running 4 verdant catacombs, 1 overgrown tomb, and 1 forest in the main deck, then 4 abrupt decays in the side board against chalice. Can't be countered is a nice side effect there. And the verdant's allow Fatal Push to hit bigger things if it needs to.
However I'm considering switching over to the Ratchet Bomb plan. As it stands I find myself awkwardly siding in the Abrupt decays and then not having them when I need them. Plus they take up a lot of space in my side that could have other things. Ratchet bombs are a bit more generally useful, and don't require messing with your mana base.
Only drawback is that a Chalice on 2 shuts you out of casting them, whereas abrupt decay just 'works'
Disenchant is 2. Frag is the W one that some people seem to run. I like white for Lingering Souls and almost want to run them main board. Those win games after they take out the removal.
I think skewering the mana base for abrupt decay isn't a great idea myself what does it kill that we are really worried about? If its just chalice ratchet bomb or disenchant is a much better answer. I personally prefer Ratchet Bomb.
I've been toying with mono-black and B/W 8 rack for a while now. I've played both at the LGS and, based on my meta, concluded the white splash doesn't add enough benefit to outweigh the drawbacks.
I ran a list at the LGS similar to Penner's, utilizing the white splash, a week or so ago. I have played it more than just that, but I think that week is fairly representative of the weakness v. utility I see with the white splash.
I matched up against Storm, Jeskai Control, G/R Ponza/Land Destruction, and a Mono Green homebrew.
Storm - Easy win (bad piloting was part of his problem) - White splash was not helpful or needed here.
Jeskai Control - Easy win - I did side in Lingering Souls, just to see if he made the match easier. He wasn't running Leyline's or any other enchantments/artifacts. I didn't really feel as though souls were needed or overly helpful in the match. Obviously, with no enchantments or artifacts I needed to worry about in deck, I didn't need the disenchant or frags either.
G/R Ponza/Land Destruction - Even match - Game 1 was very close and he just barely took it. I had a few misplays and then fizzled out. Game 2 he fizzled on land and got stomped. Game 3 was running very close and I had the upper-hand until he resolved a blood moon and that was that. This match certainly made me feel as though the white splash was more detrimental than helpful. The decreased number of basics and inability to deal with a top decked blood moon that resolved was the end. Running tight resources that then became mostly useless, given the non-basic lands, allowed him to catch back up and take the game.
Mono G Homebrew - I did side in the Lingering Souls here and it certainly helped for blocking his creatures, but he was running big, dumb ones anyways, so pushes, dismembers, etc. were better options than stalling out with blockers.
Comparing the white splash games I have played, versus the mono-black games, I wasn't seeing the utility of white outweigh the drawback of having to deal with correcting mana and taking out some of the black cards in the deck that I find more helpful in a greater number of situations.
other question :
what are your experience feedback from bontu's last reckoning use ?
I've added Bontu for sideboard and I don't think I have enough experience with it yet to make a hard decision one way or another. That it's 3 mana is great for the curve. That lands stay tapped the following turn sucks. However, the matches I've used it, the tapped land drawback hasn't seemed to be much of an issue. The stage I seem to use it, I'm at a point where there doesn't seem to be an extreme need to make plays the following turn, or very large ones. Their hand is either entirely gone or mostly gone by this point in the game and they're largely top decking, so if I can't make a play the following turn, it's not the end of the world.
So, it's far from optimal and modern is a turn 1 format but if it's followed up with a 241 value play with 2 spox/wrench mind/collective brutality/lili it could work.
Cube
Terricube
Modern
Legacy
Game 1 on the draw I might if I had a fatal push or dismember in hand. Its honestly very rare to not have a turn 1 discard we play a lot of them.
Game 2 totally dependent on match up but there is a lot of matches I would keep no turn 1 discard on game 2. Remember most of the time your looking at 8 cards before you make a play so its pretty reasonable that you almost always have a t1 discard.
I have another question!
I'm returning to 8 rack and I have issues against burn. What advice can you give to me?
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Funeral Charm
4 Fatal Push
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Wrench Mind
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Raven's Crime
1 Black Mail
2 Thoughtseize
4 Shrieking Affliction
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Mutavault
1 Polluted Delta
13 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Flaying Tendrils
2 Collective Brutality
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
2 Surgical Extraction
My strategy is to try to hit an early collective brutality. I use to win with Nyxiathid but now Im still calibrating my play.
Regards!
I've been struggling lately with having enough pressure in the deck. The number of games I've lost to a strong board position with no way to do damage are just too frustrating. I don't want to mulligan a hand with an amazing curve just to try to find a damage source, but sometimes I feel like I need to. I'm still liking Asylum Visitors in the board for this reason. They can really put on pressure against Valakut, Tron or UW control. It's just frustrating they interact poorly with Smallpox. I like that they're faster that Dark Confidant. They won't draw you a card as reliably, but the madness probably makes up for it.
Modern: Storm
Legacy: ANT
I'm planning on dropping my bridges from sideboard in my Smallpox build and instead vs E-Tron bring in 3 Ratchet Bombs.
Versus eldrazi tron the bigger threat is Chalice of the Void anyway.
Merfolk I'll bring in 3 Bontu's Last Reckoning
Cube
Terricube
Modern
Legacy
I think a common misconception in this thread is that bridge wins games and it doesn't. Bridge is not a win con its a stall out. If I am playing merfolk and someone puts a bridge down playing 8 rack I basically just stall out for game one and work on a draw. Bridge IMO is a trap its takes away from what the deck is trying to do and that is get a player to 0 cards and kill them with racks. Personally I think Ratchet Bomb is a way better sideboard card in 8 rack then disenchant. Ratchet bomb is just as good as against chalice and it can be used in so many more applications its good against lingering souls which is a terrible card for us to play against. Its good against affinity maybe better then disenchant depending on affinity players hand. The only card that ratchet bomb is worse against is leyline of sanctity. Leyline of Sanctity is another trap card IMO. The decks that run it our match up is great against already (bogles, ad nauseum)that I don't even care when a leyline is played. Most decks that run leyline mull to get it so even if they mulligan once to get a leyline we have already removed 2 cards from their hand before we have done anything that's pretty sweet value for a discard deck already.
I have been thinking more and more about Liliana the Last Hope and I am going to test it. The fact that it is a win con is interesting and it does help out some of our tougher go wide match ups with its plus 1. I am going to put 1 in my main and 1 in side removing a dismember main for it.
Just as a FYI... A lot of EldraziTron pilots will run 2 copies of Karn and some have even gone to 3 total in their 75. There is also Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger ran in quite a few ETron decks as well that takes out Bridge. Not trying to incite, just inform.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I completely agree. when i used to play bridge, it always put me in a false sense of safety. you stop worrying about the board, and when it gets bounced/removed, you just die because you thought you were invincible
Disenchant doesn't help you. Chalice on 1 is what kills us. Disenchant costs 1.
Currently I've been running 4 verdant catacombs, 1 overgrown tomb, and 1 forest in the main deck, then 4 abrupt decays in the side board against chalice. Can't be countered is a nice side effect there. And the verdant's allow Fatal Push to hit bigger things if it needs to.
However I'm considering switching over to the Ratchet Bomb plan. As it stands I find myself awkwardly siding in the Abrupt decays and then not having them when I need them. Plus they take up a lot of space in my side that could have other things. Ratchet bombs are a bit more generally useful, and don't require messing with your mana base.
Only drawback is that a Chalice on 2 shuts you out of casting them, whereas abrupt decay just 'works'
I ran a list at the LGS similar to Penner's, utilizing the white splash, a week or so ago. I have played it more than just that, but I think that week is fairly representative of the weakness v. utility I see with the white splash.
I matched up against Storm, Jeskai Control, G/R Ponza/Land Destruction, and a Mono Green homebrew.
Storm - Easy win (bad piloting was part of his problem) - White splash was not helpful or needed here.
Jeskai Control - Easy win - I did side in Lingering Souls, just to see if he made the match easier. He wasn't running Leyline's or any other enchantments/artifacts. I didn't really feel as though souls were needed or overly helpful in the match. Obviously, with no enchantments or artifacts I needed to worry about in deck, I didn't need the disenchant or frags either.
G/R Ponza/Land Destruction - Even match - Game 1 was very close and he just barely took it. I had a few misplays and then fizzled out. Game 2 he fizzled on land and got stomped. Game 3 was running very close and I had the upper-hand until he resolved a blood moon and that was that. This match certainly made me feel as though the white splash was more detrimental than helpful. The decreased number of basics and inability to deal with a top decked blood moon that resolved was the end. Running tight resources that then became mostly useless, given the non-basic lands, allowed him to catch back up and take the game.
Mono G Homebrew - I did side in the Lingering Souls here and it certainly helped for blocking his creatures, but he was running big, dumb ones anyways, so pushes, dismembers, etc. were better options than stalling out with blockers.
Comparing the white splash games I have played, versus the mono-black games, I wasn't seeing the utility of white outweigh the drawback of having to deal with correcting mana and taking out some of the black cards in the deck that I find more helpful in a greater number of situations.
I have reverted the deck back to mono-black and run a list similar to Tom's update seen here: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/34621_8-Rack-Makes-A-Splash.html
My sideboard has a few cards that are different and I am toying with a few fetch lands mainboard to trigger revolt on the pushes.
I've added Bontu for sideboard and I don't think I have enough experience with it yet to make a hard decision one way or another. That it's 3 mana is great for the curve. That lands stay tapped the following turn sucks. However, the matches I've used it, the tapped land drawback hasn't seemed to be much of an issue. The stage I seem to use it, I'm at a point where there doesn't seem to be an extreme need to make plays the following turn, or very large ones. Their hand is either entirely gone or mostly gone by this point in the game and they're largely top decking, so if I can't make a play the following turn, it's not the end of the world.
*My experience so far.