I've been testing Torment of Scarabs in the mainboard and it has worked pretty well. When you throw that onto the battlefield with rack(s) already in play, it seems to overwhelm the opponent during upkeep, because it's at the top of the stack and what they choose between 3 damage, sac or discard directly affects the next rack on the stack. I know the first thought is "4cmc, to slow" or "will never get out due to smallpox", but it hasn't been left dead in my hand yet.
I just played a typical mono black 8-Rack build for the first time last night, and it did great. I really like this deck.
Quick question.
I am running 24 lands (4 Mutavaults, 3 Urborgs, and 17 Swamps).
How should I be thinking about the decision to run 4 Raven's Crime and 3 Thoughtseize, or 3 Raven's Crime and 4 Thoughtseize? It seems as though I only need 1 Raven's Crime in the graveyard at any given time. Going to 23 lands would let me run 4 of each, but that's working against the ability to Retrace with Raven's Crime.
The only reason not to play 4 Thoughtseize would be if someday we could have more than 4 cards with the same english name in a deck. If you're spending your time wondering how many Thoughtseize or Inquisition to play, you're doing something wrong. Besides, 23 lands is more than enough for everything you would want to do, even if you were to play Smallpox for some reason.
Good question. For me it depends on if you're playing Smallpox which can be a great card btw, just remember to take the draw if you think you can afford it. So if you're not playing Smallpox go for 22 or so lands and def 4 Thoughtseize (always go 4 ravens crime) but if you're playing 4 Smallpox then you can afford to cut a Thoughtseize because on the draw you need more slots for removal. Also if you're going the Pox rout play four, otherwise how would you know if you want to play or draw?
Good question. For me it depends on if you're playing Smallpox which can be a great card btw, just remember to take the draw if you think you can afford it. So if you're not playing Smallpox go for 22 or so lands and def 4 Thoughtseize (always go 4 ravens crime) but if you're playing 4 Smallpox then you can afford to cut a Thoughtseize because on the draw you need more slots for removal. Also if you're going the Pox rout play four, otherwise how would you know if you want to play or draw?
Hope this helps
totaly agree
also thoughtseize on the draw its less good, for the same reason removal its a bit better
It has been a long time since I have played 8Rack, for one thing, I had to change my mainboard since my fiancé is using my Ensnaring Bridge's in her deck. I added Smallpox in it's place, though haven't really tested out to see how it will do.
Ensnaring Bridge was very good against Eldrazi, but the popular Tron version of the deck has ways to shut it down. This was the main reason to play it and now that the deck it's trying to beat has a way to deal with it, it's just not that impressive. Still has plenty of applications, of course, but meta-wise Eldrazi Tron is played as much or even more than all the rest combined.
Ensnaring Bridge was very good against Eldrazi, but the popular Tron version of the deck has ways to shut it down. This was the main reason to play it and now that the deck it's trying to beat has a way to deal with it, it's just not that impressive. Still has plenty of applications, of course, but meta-wise Eldrazi Tron is played as much or even more than all the rest combined.
I can understand that ELdrazi Tron does have quite a bit answers for Ensnaring Bridge, and honestly a lot of our deck. That is one main reasons I run mainboard Surgical Extractions to really get the edge when facing decks to have key cards enter the graveyard. I can see more and more that Ensnaring Bridge just isn't that stellar in the deck as it used to.
Yeah, I am playing Smallpox.
Esperino, are you recommending that I drop a swamp and go to 23 lands and include the 4th Thoughtseize?
Here is my current build:
Why not drop a Swamp for a Gurmag Angler? One more win condition is nice and making smooth use of tbe graveyard resource. And with all of these delve creatures running around and your sweet painless manabase why not drop a funeral Charm and a fatal push for two Dismember? It's two more things your Mutavault can cast which is always great.
If you want to delve I would think Murderous Cut would be the right idea over Gurmag. 8 win conditions is quite a few; I would not go far beyond that, especially with something that most decks can probably handle just fine. I think most who wanted a Delve beater went with Tombstalker, but Nyxathid generally beats out Angler as is. At one B more you get an incredibly relevant ability and the cost is highly unlikely to hinder you anyway.
I don't disagree that Murderous Cut isn't good because I like it and haves used it with success, great card. I do disagree with 8 racks always being enough. There's a saying that the more abrupt decay's you face the less likely you are to win, and the math is that getting a Rack by turn 5, on the draw, is 85%. Wow 15% that you don't have a win condition in site when you want it, that hopefully doesn't get killed. Hey maybe Torment of Scarabs is good in our deck that's be cool. In mono black I like Gurmag and in a deck with fetches I like Tombstalker, gotta be able to cast it when you need it.
Yeah, I am playing Smallpox.
Esperino, are you recommending that I drop a swamp and go to 23 lands and include the 4th Thoughtseize?
Here is my current build:
Well yes, that is what I'm recommending. I don't play Smallpox and most people who do say that 24 lands is the recommended number, but I disagree. 8Rack's curve traditionally stops at 3 mana, for which 23 land is more than enough for everything you're going to do. If you play 3 Seize and 24 land you are essentially giving up a significant increase in your chances to have Thoughtseize in your opening hand and instead replacing that card with a land that you don't even need.
Well yes, that is what I'm recommending. I don't play Smallpox and most people who do say that 24 lands is the recommended number, but I disagree. 8Rack's curve traditionally stops at 3 mana, for which 23 land is more than enough for everything you're going to do. If you play 3 Seize and 24 land you are essentially giving up a significant increase in your chances to have Thoughtseize in your opening hand and instead replacing that card with a land that you don't even need.
I can understand the want for a lot of lands in the deck but so many is a bit too much. I usually run 22 maybe 23 at times but 24-25 is quite scary. I do like Smallpox right now because of lot of the big decks right now get there with creatures and is usually done so by a few at a time.
Hi all. New to 8rack and played a semi budget variant last night (only 2 lili's at the moment) and I just wanted to report in on Torment of Hailfire
I ran 2 copies mainboard and had some pretty good success with it. Usually if I saw one early I'd pitch it to lili or collective brutality, but even then casting this for 4 on turn 4 didnt feel bad as by then they had no hand, and even at one point nothing to sac.
I'll keep experimenting and let you all know. As for my games, I lost to GB elves and Mardu Humans (aggro is rough even with 7 spot removal plus sb), draw against a RG stompy dragon build and got a by(?, bye?, bi? ??)last round. Not super great results but I had fun with what I had available to play with.
Hi all. New to 8rack and played a semi budget variant last night (only 2 lili's at the moment) and I just wanted to report in on Torment of Hailfire
I 'really' wanna try Torment of Hailfire in the deck at some time. It looks very good and could be very good in some matchups. I definitely wanna hear more how this card does in Modern competitive play.
I ran 2 copies of torment of scarabs this past Friday and it went pretty well. I replaced the remaining two Wrench Mind I had in my deck with them. Didn't miss the wrench mind one bit.
In other news, counters company and death's shadow were tough matchups for me. What is the play on those decks?
Death shadow is a pretty good matchup, just make sure you're running a few dismembers and not relying too heavily on fatal push as it misses tasigur and angler. Most likely it's just needing practice with the matchup.
Counters company you want to hit them hard with discard so they aren't sitting on 4 mana waiting to top deck a collected company. Ideally you want them empty handed by their 2nd land, and smallpox is big here. This is a matchup where I greatly prefer to be on the play as hitting a mana dork and a land on your turn 2 is backbreaking for them. Flaying tendrils out of the board helps a lot. Use your discard to hit kitchen finks preferably and let your ravens crimes and wrench minds and smallpox take care of the companies and chords
I've been playing alot of CoCo recently, so I'll try to give some insight from my perspective.
Smallpox is probably the #2 card for 8Rack in this match up with the #1 being Flaying Tendrils. There are incredibly few things in all the different versions of the CoCo deck that survive Tendrils and their one drops are so common and useless that losing a Dork to Pox is no big deal; the real issue with pox is the whole combination of land, dork, discard. CoCo is built to withstand a fair amount of attrition with 4 Witness and 4 Ralliers in many lists, so a Tendrils exiling a ton of things is a huge boon for 8Rack.
I think 8Rack is also well positioned to use Extraction on a combo piece (Devoted Druid or Vizier of Remedies; less common now is Kitchen Finks or Murderous Redcap, but some still play it); I would prioritize the Vizier, it actually can attack, ramp beyond 4 doesn't matter, and it enables all the different combos whereas Druid only activates one. The difficult part about hitting Vizier is that Druid always hits the table first then you have to respond to the Vizier (or CoCo or Chord or Revolt Rallier) when they try to complete the combo. Just be aware that you may have some choices, but I think most decks are ditching the infinite Finks combo entirely.
Watch the colors(!), Naya and Bant can't Finks combo so Druid is a complete combo shutdown. Some people run Finks anyway because they are an immortal blocker with a Vizier out, but they cannot enable infinite life since they lack the B sac outlet.
As much as fearing CoCo is a real thing, it can still wiff pretty hard since most decks are running 6-8 G drop dorks (read as "0/1s"); I, personally, feel this pain all the time seeing 2 dorks and 4 lands is a horrifying feeling not to mention less than that. Cutting out a combo is likely priority one because it wins immediately and it's CoCo player's top priority in game one. G2&3, a solid Tendrils or a Damnation type card against a hellbent CoCo is likely game even if they get a decent CoCo.
T3 combo hands look like this:
2 Land, Druid, Vizier, Mana Sink. Play order being obvious.
3 Land, Druid, Chord, Witness. Play order being T2 Druid, T3 Chord for Vizier (with double Druid tap), Witness for Chord, Chord for Rhonas, Entity, or Duskwatch Recruiter.
1 Land, Dork, Druid, Vizier, Mana Sink. Play order being obvious, but weak to removal.
One important thing to note about Ensnaring Bridge is that all CoCo combos go around it while being lethal since they can attack with the Druid through hellbent then pump it before damage.
I hope some of this helps against the CoCo match up!
Decklist for this week's FNM: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/682289
4 The Rack
4 Thoughtseize
2 Torment of Scarabs
2 Dismember
4 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Raven's Crime
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Smallpox
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mutavault
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Swamp
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Nyxathid
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Surgical Extraction
Quick question.
I am running 24 lands (4 Mutavaults, 3 Urborgs, and 17 Swamps).
How should I be thinking about the decision to run 4 Raven's Crime and 3 Thoughtseize, or 3 Raven's Crime and 4 Thoughtseize? It seems as though I only need 1 Raven's Crime in the graveyard at any given time. Going to 23 lands would let me run 4 of each, but that's working against the ability to Retrace with Raven's Crime.
Hope this helps
Legacy: Pox, R/B Goblins
Commander: Mono Black, Mono Blue
Pauper: Goblins
totaly agree
also thoughtseize on the draw its less good, for the same reason removal its a bit better
Here is my list for those that interesting :
4 The Rack
Enchantments (4):
4 Shrieking Affliction
Instants (6):
2 Dismember
4 Surgical Extraction
Planeswalkers (4):
4 Liliana of the Veil
Sorceries (20):
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
4 Wrench Mind
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Ghost Quarter
18 Swamp
2 Darkblast
4 Extirpate
4 Fatal Push
2 Flaying Tendrils
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Relic of Progenitus
I will add Mutavault to the deck soon enough, just been lazy on it.
I'm quite surprised to see that not many decks lately use Ensnaring Bridge mainboard much anymore. What does everyone think about that?
I can understand that ELdrazi Tron does have quite a bit answers for Ensnaring Bridge, and honestly a lot of our deck. That is one main reasons I run mainboard Surgical Extractions to really get the edge when facing decks to have key cards enter the graveyard. I can see more and more that Ensnaring Bridge just isn't that stellar in the deck as it used to.
Esperino, are you recommending that I drop a swamp and go to 23 lands and include the 4th Thoughtseize?
Here is my current build:
2x Funeral Charm (VIS)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek (CN2)
4x Liliana of the Veil (ISD)
4x Raven's Crime (MMA)
4x Shrieking Affliction (RTR)
4x Smallpox (TSP)
4x The Rack (DPA)
3x Thoughtseize (THS)
3x Wrench Mind (MRD)
4x Mutavault
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
17x Swamp (AKH)
2x Death's Shadow (MM3)
2x Dismember
1x Flaying Tendrils (000)
1x Leyline of the Void (M11)
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal (CHK)
2x Ratchet Bomb (000)
2x Relic of Progenitus (EMA)
4x Surgical Extraction (NPH)
Good list and board.
Legacy: Pox, R/B Goblins
Commander: Mono Black, Mono Blue
Pauper: Goblins
Anyone have more test results with Torment of Scarabs yet?
"Reveal a Dragon"
Legacy: Pox, R/B Goblins
Commander: Mono Black, Mono Blue
Pauper: Goblins
Well yes, that is what I'm recommending. I don't play Smallpox and most people who do say that 24 lands is the recommended number, but I disagree. 8Rack's curve traditionally stops at 3 mana, for which 23 land is more than enough for everything you're going to do. If you play 3 Seize and 24 land you are essentially giving up a significant increase in your chances to have Thoughtseize in your opening hand and instead replacing that card with a land that you don't even need.
Excellent. I will give that a try then.
I ran 2 copies mainboard and had some pretty good success with it. Usually if I saw one early I'd pitch it to lili or collective brutality, but even then casting this for 4 on turn 4 didnt feel bad as by then they had no hand, and even at one point nothing to sac.
I'll keep experimenting and let you all know. As for my games, I lost to GB elves and Mardu Humans (aggro is rough even with 7 spot removal plus sb), draw against a RG stompy dragon build and got a by(?, bye?, bi? ??)last round. Not super great results but I had fun with what I had available to play with.
I 'really' wanna try Torment of Hailfire in the deck at some time. It looks very good and could be very good in some matchups. I definitely wanna hear more how this card does in Modern competitive play.
In other news, counters company and death's shadow were tough matchups for me. What is the play on those decks?
Counters company you want to hit them hard with discard so they aren't sitting on 4 mana waiting to top deck a collected company. Ideally you want them empty handed by their 2nd land, and smallpox is big here. This is a matchup where I greatly prefer to be on the play as hitting a mana dork and a land on your turn 2 is backbreaking for them. Flaying tendrils out of the board helps a lot. Use your discard to hit kitchen finks preferably and let your ravens crimes and wrench minds and smallpox take care of the companies and chords
Smallpox is probably the #2 card for 8Rack in this match up with the #1 being Flaying Tendrils. There are incredibly few things in all the different versions of the CoCo deck that survive Tendrils and their one drops are so common and useless that losing a Dork to Pox is no big deal; the real issue with pox is the whole combination of land, dork, discard. CoCo is built to withstand a fair amount of attrition with 4 Witness and 4 Ralliers in many lists, so a Tendrils exiling a ton of things is a huge boon for 8Rack.
I think 8Rack is also well positioned to use Extraction on a combo piece (Devoted Druid or Vizier of Remedies; less common now is Kitchen Finks or Murderous Redcap, but some still play it); I would prioritize the Vizier, it actually can attack, ramp beyond 4 doesn't matter, and it enables all the different combos whereas Druid only activates one. The difficult part about hitting Vizier is that Druid always hits the table first then you have to respond to the Vizier (or CoCo or Chord or Revolt Rallier) when they try to complete the combo. Just be aware that you may have some choices, but I think most decks are ditching the infinite Finks combo entirely.
Watch the colors(!), Naya and Bant can't Finks combo so Druid is a complete combo shutdown. Some people run Finks anyway because they are an immortal blocker with a Vizier out, but they cannot enable infinite life since they lack the B sac outlet.
As much as fearing CoCo is a real thing, it can still wiff pretty hard since most decks are running 6-8 G drop dorks (read as "0/1s"); I, personally, feel this pain all the time seeing 2 dorks and 4 lands is a horrifying feeling not to mention less than that. Cutting out a combo is likely priority one because it wins immediately and it's CoCo player's top priority in game one. G2&3, a solid Tendrils or a Damnation type card against a hellbent CoCo is likely game even if they get a decent CoCo.
T3 combo hands look like this:
One important thing to note about Ensnaring Bridge is that all CoCo combos go around it while being lethal since they can attack with the Druid through hellbent then pump it before damage.
I hope some of this helps against the CoCo match up!
"Reveal a Dragon"