I don't think it is good enough, it is just a worse Sun Titan and is also massively overcosted at 7-cmc.
Even something like Reveillark is much more playable (as a 1x-off).
I don't think it is good enough, it is just a worse Sun Titan which is also massively overcosted at 7-cmc.
Even something like Reveillark is much more playable (as a 1x-off).
Based on playtesting, I think the highest CMC we run should be six. 7 cmc is just too high even with 24 lands.
As for the Reveillark, have been using one for many months now and it works well. It's a good pair with Supreme Verdict.. cast verdict, things die and we get walls and hussars back from the yard.. or even the ones in play that got destroyed with the lark can be put back.
Huh? That's an interesting combo! It might actually justify trying the red splash, which nothing else to this point has. I like the synergies she has with a lot of other cards.
That said, this isn't as much for me. Adding an third non-green color could adversely affect consistency or the long-run reliability of Emeria. Additionally, while Saheeli has such great synergies, there is a good argument that if you have reached a situation where you can combo, other cards would have won anyway (like a Phantasmal Image). For these reasons, I'm not going to be running this; that said, I think it's a perfectly legitimate build to try.
If you're going this way, eschew things like Mortarpods, lower the number of Detention Spheres, and reduce your reliance on the Emeria plan. Instead, because you have inevitability by a Saheeli combo, these other things are much less necessary to ensure a positive outcome over a longer game.
Any other good cards that Red can add to the deck ?
I can only think of Pia and Kiran Nalaar but it's 4-cmc (doesn't work with Sun Titan) and the RR casting cost is a problem.
I'm also not sure that we want to run Lightning Bolt/Lightning Helix (or Pyroclasm) in this deck as we usually block the smaller creatures and use the non-conditonal removal (PtE, D-Sphere and S.Verdict) on the bigger ones.
I don't think it is good enough, it is just a worse Sun Titan and is also massively overcosted at 7-cmc.
Even something like Reveillark is much more playable (as a 1x-off).
I have been trying a UW Glint Nest Crane list in the last weeks with 1 White Gearhulk in there and I rather like him. He's rarely dead and can blow out some decks (Affinity, Prison).
I like the Artifacts heavy list, but it doesn't break the deck. I still feel that Green offers the most in terms of power level.
Wouldn't Nahiri + Emrakul just be more straightforward and powerful?
If you're going to use those cards, you might as well build that Jeskai deck that uses them. Neither of those cards would fit in this deck. You can't retrieve either with Sun Titan, for example.
Yes, it is not about the combo at all, it is just a very synergystic piece that fits the deck (and requires a small adjustment to the manabase).
The combo is just a bonus and is rather unlikely to happen.
While I love this deck, I think it needs a big shake up to move up from Tier Irrelevant, and yet another 3 synergistic mana cantrip isn't it (on a splash no less).
Let's look at the staples as listed in this primer:
Emeria: The reason to play the deck. That's how we go bigger than the midrange/control decks. Problem is, it doesn't do anything until very late in the game and costs us the ability to play the best lands in the formats.
Sun Titan: In a deck full of value creatures, Sun Titan is a fine top end but wrapping the deck around Sun Titan is a trap IMO. I mean, taking out the Titans for Nahiris and an Emrakul would make the deck less synergistic, but probably more powerful. BTW, things don't need to be 3 cmc or less because it synergies with Titan, they need to be cheap because we'll die before playing them otherwise.
Wall of Omens, Lone Missionary: These 2 drops are supposed to stall and get us to the late game, but they don't do much against most of the meta. They can't block against the most common aggro decks and do stone nothing against combo.
Hussar: Another crappy blocker that puts us over midrange decks.
Flickerwisp: A decent blocker against Infect and Affinity, can pressure planeswalkers. Combos with Sun Titan to put games out of reach.
D Sphere: Catch all answer. A little slow and fragile though.
Supreme Verdict: The card that turns aggro games around, but soft to man lands.
Path to Exile: Nothing bad to say here.
Negate: Hits things that are otherwise problematic. Hard to hold up early though.
The powerful cards IMO are Emeria (beats midrange/control), Supreme Verdict (beats creatures), Path (efficient removal for all the efficient threats) and Negate. I think the others are there to support and enable Sun Titan (which is a fine plan, but it has many shortcomings as you are all aware).
Going one step further (to remove reference to any other color), I would say the heart of the deck is Emeria + a Wrath effect + Path. These are the only cards that are Modern playable on their own merits (Emeria is stretching it, but there's no way we're not playing Emeria).
From there we need:
1- early plays to survive against aggro;
2- ways to disrupt (or race) combo;
3- a top end.
The Sun Titan package checks #3, is okayish at #1 but does nothing for #2 (and doesn't leave room for a splash to shore up the weakness).
I'm pretty sure that Eternal Witness is a better build around than Sun Titan for the Emeria deck. Getting access to efficient threat, ramp, things that hit non-creature permanents, tutors and recurring non-creatures opens up interesting and powerful abilities.
That being said, I'll admit that my own tries have only resulted in a deck that has a comparable winrate to UW Emeria (better agaisnt combo/big mana, worse against Infect), but I'll keep at it.
I'd argue I win more off the back of Sun Titan than Emeria.
That said, Saheeli just isn't going to do the job, the more I look at it. On her own, she's usually not even on the level of PI. Running 4 copies as a finish is funny, but if you had 2 PI in your GY, you're probably winning next turn when you attack with 3 Sun Titans anyway.
Even copying Sun Titan once is a huge value gain (you get 2 triggers as it gains haste and a 6-power attacker) and should usually win the game so Saheeli Rai is well worth inclusion in my opinion (I run 3x).
If you manage to protect it (which should be feasible), it'll generate a lot of value copying all the creatures in the deck. Phantasmal Image is also very good in this deck, I would even say that 1x copy should be in every deck, however it isn't as powerful as Saheelie Rai that can continue to copy creatutes (and scry+ping) over several turns.
It might be the Liliana of our deck.
Another value card which Red opens up is Whirler Virtuoso, how do you think it compares to Eldrazi Skyspawner ?
It can't ramp but provides better combined power+toughness.
What do you think of this creature ?
I have couple of Kitchen Finks so I might try a 2/1 split with Eldrazi Skyspawner but I'm afraid it might make me soft to flyers.
I don't think that Inquisitor Exarch is good enough in this deck compared to Lone Missionary (as we are not an aggressive deck to use the drain option and gaining only 2 life instead of 4 is much worse).
Another 2-drop I consider trying is Knight of the White Orchid which can also help find duals for mana fixing.
Let me rephrase. Saheeli is a fairly fragile PW. Her first ability is not especially strong, except in pretty odd cases. Her copy-ability is why we play her. Her copy-ability is a -2 and she starts with Loyalty 3. This means that unless she sticks around for 2 full turns after you've played her (unusual for PWs), she is only going to copy once. If she does stick that long, you're already on turn 5 and are probably winning anyway.
If she's only copying once, she usually isn't any stronger than PI. PI will also give the ETB trigger. It may not have haste, but the body lingers and can block. It can also copy an opposing creature in a pinch, if it's necessary.
The one exception is when she's copying Sun Titan. Because of the way Sun Titan's ability is worded, it will get two triggers (which is pretty bonkers). This is the main reason to play her. Compared to a PI, she gets 6 points of immediate attack damage and an extra trigger, while PI gives a persistent (if a drop fragile) second Titan.
The combo also probably saves one turn off a win versus 2 PIs.
The other side of this is that PI is a creature, and thus can directly contribute to defense by copying the most powerful thing on the board. It's also a bit cheaper to cast (our 3-mana slot is already crowded) and doesn't require a splash.
In short: Saheeli has an edge when you're going on offense or you have a Sun Titan, while PI has an edge earlier and can be used to better effect defensively.
For several reasons, I generally think that in those situations where Saheeli would win us the game, we were probably already going to win. For that reason, I still prefer PI (plus the splash-related issues).
But I totally understand people experimenting with it.
1. A 1 of Sundial of the Infinite could give us persistent copies of Saheeli Rai and also permanent exiles by Flickerwisp.
2. Panharmonicon is nuts!
3. I'm considering dropping the 3rd Emeria and some Ghost Quarters for a better mana base. I only have 1 Sacred Foundry and it sucks =T but having a Mountain in the 60s saved my ass a couple of times yesterday.
4. Blasting Station > Mortarpod even without Fiend Hunter, because we won't need extra mana to equip the token created by Saheeli. That way, we can keep both combos in the deck.
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Even something like Reveillark is much more playable (as a 1x-off).
Currently I'm testing a copy of Cataclysmic Gearhulk in the flex slot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRFN4ZbwJfc
I would make some slight changes to the list, but looks interesting nonetheless.
Would cut Pilgrim's Eyes and Ojutai's Commands for more Supreme Verdicts, Negates and/or Detention Spheres.
What do you think of adding Saheeli Rai?
I agree that: Pilgrim's Eye, Ojutai's Command (is ok for the SB) and Mortarpod are probably not good enough for the mainboard.
I would replace them with:
1x Lone Missionary, 2x Eldrazi Skyspawner, 2x Detention Sphere, 1x Negate and probably go down to 3x Saheeli Rai for 1x more Supreme Verdict (or Eldrazi Skyspawner).
Based on playtesting, I think the highest CMC we run should be six. 7 cmc is just too high even with 24 lands.
As for the Reveillark, have been using one for many months now and it works well. It's a good pair with Supreme Verdict.. cast verdict, things die and we get walls and hussars back from the yard.. or even the ones in play that got destroyed with the lark can be put back.
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That said, this isn't as much for me. Adding an third non-green color could adversely affect consistency or the long-run reliability of Emeria. Additionally, while Saheeli has such great synergies, there is a good argument that if you have reached a situation where you can combo, other cards would have won anyway (like a Phantasmal Image). For these reasons, I'm not going to be running this; that said, I think it's a perfectly legitimate build to try.
If you're going this way, eschew things like Mortarpods, lower the number of Detention Spheres, and reduce your reliance on the Emeria plan. Instead, because you have inevitability by a Saheeli combo, these other things are much less necessary to ensure a positive outcome over a longer game.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I can only think of Pia and Kiran Nalaar but it's 4-cmc (doesn't work with Sun Titan) and the RR casting cost is a problem.
I'm also not sure that we want to run Lightning Bolt/Lightning Helix (or Pyroclasm) in this deck as we usually block the smaller creatures and use the non-conditonal removal (PtE, D-Sphere and S.Verdict) on the bigger ones.
Maybe Oath of Chandra can work here, what do you think ?
Maybe Fevered Visions can be a SB option against control decks ?
Probably only a micro-splash just for Saheeli Rai makes the most sense at the moment, I would try something like this:
4x Wall of Omens
3x Lone Missionary
1x Phantasmal Image
4x Flickerwisp
3x Court Hussar
3x Eldrazi Skyspawner
4x Sun Titan
Planeswalker (3)
3x Saheeli Rai
Enchantment (3)
3x Detention Sphere
Instant (6)
4x Path to Exile
2x Negate
3x Supreme Verdict
Land (23)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Hallowed Fountain
2x Sacred Foundry
1x Prairie Stream
5x Plains
1x Island
3x Ghost Quarter
3x Emeria, the Sky Ruin
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Pithing Needle
2x Negate
2x Meddling Mage
2x Spreading Seas
2x Stony Silence
1x Lone Missionary
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1x Ghostly Prison
Would the 2x Sacred Foundry + 4x Flooded Strand be enough ?
I wonder if the addition of Saheeli Rai can push the deck's power level to be more competitive.
A more narrow option can be Legion's Initiative which can save from Anger of the Gods and retrigger the EtB abilities.
I have been trying a UW Glint Nest Crane list in the last weeks with 1 White Gearhulk in there and I rather like him. He's rarely dead and can blow out some decks (Affinity, Prison).
I like the Artifacts heavy list, but it doesn't break the deck. I still feel that Green offers the most in terms of power level.
Th ecombo doesn't speed up the deck though... and it still folds to graveyard hate.
If you're going to use those cards, you might as well build that Jeskai deck that uses them. Neither of those cards would fit in this deck. You can't retrieve either with Sun Titan, for example.
The combo is just a bonus and is rather unlikely to happen.
Let's look at the staples as listed in this primer:
Emeria: The reason to play the deck. That's how we go bigger than the midrange/control decks. Problem is, it doesn't do anything until very late in the game and costs us the ability to play the best lands in the formats.
Sun Titan: In a deck full of value creatures, Sun Titan is a fine top end but wrapping the deck around Sun Titan is a trap IMO. I mean, taking out the Titans for Nahiris and an Emrakul would make the deck less synergistic, but probably more powerful. BTW, things don't need to be 3 cmc or less because it synergies with Titan, they need to be cheap because we'll die before playing them otherwise.
Wall of Omens, Lone Missionary: These 2 drops are supposed to stall and get us to the late game, but they don't do much against most of the meta. They can't block against the most common aggro decks and do stone nothing against combo.
Hussar: Another crappy blocker that puts us over midrange decks.
Flickerwisp: A decent blocker against Infect and Affinity, can pressure planeswalkers. Combos with Sun Titan to put games out of reach.
D Sphere: Catch all answer. A little slow and fragile though.
Supreme Verdict: The card that turns aggro games around, but soft to man lands.
Path to Exile: Nothing bad to say here.
Negate: Hits things that are otherwise problematic. Hard to hold up early though.
The powerful cards IMO are Emeria (beats midrange/control), Supreme Verdict (beats creatures), Path (efficient removal for all the efficient threats) and Negate. I think the others are there to support and enable Sun Titan (which is a fine plan, but it has many shortcomings as you are all aware).
Going one step further (to remove reference to any other color), I would say the heart of the deck is Emeria + a Wrath effect + Path. These are the only cards that are Modern playable on their own merits (Emeria is stretching it, but there's no way we're not playing Emeria).
From there we need:
1- early plays to survive against aggro;
2- ways to disrupt (or race) combo;
3- a top end.
The Sun Titan package checks #3, is okayish at #1 but does nothing for #2 (and doesn't leave room for a splash to shore up the weakness).
I'm pretty sure that Eternal Witness is a better build around than Sun Titan for the Emeria deck. Getting access to efficient threat, ramp, things that hit non-creature permanents, tutors and recurring non-creatures opens up interesting and powerful abilities.
That being said, I'll admit that my own tries have only resulted in a deck that has a comparable winrate to UW Emeria (better agaisnt combo/big mana, worse against Infect), but I'll keep at it.
That said, Saheeli just isn't going to do the job, the more I look at it. On her own, she's usually not even on the level of PI. Running 4 copies as a finish is funny, but if you had 2 PI in your GY, you're probably winning next turn when you attack with 3 Sun Titans anyway.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
If you manage to protect it (which should be feasible), it'll generate a lot of value copying all the creatures in the deck.
Phantasmal Image is also very good in this deck, I would even say that 1x copy should be in every deck, however it isn't as powerful as Saheelie Rai that can continue to copy creatutes (and scry+ping) over several turns.
It might be the Liliana of our deck.
Another value card which Red opens up is Whirler Virtuoso, how do you think it compares to Eldrazi Skyspawner ?
It can't ramp but provides better combined power+toughness.
What do you think of this creature ?
The other possible 3-drops I can see here are Kitchen Finks and Blade Splicer.
Monastery Siege, Smuggler's Copter or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy.
I have couple of Kitchen Finks so I might try a 2/1 split with Eldrazi Skyspawner but I'm afraid it might make me soft to flyers.
I don't think that Inquisitor Exarch is good enough in this deck compared to Lone Missionary (as we are not an aggressive deck to use the drain option and gaining only 2 life instead of 4 is much worse).
Another 2-drop I consider trying is Knight of the White Orchid which can also help find duals for mana fixing.
If she's only copying once, she usually isn't any stronger than PI. PI will also give the ETB trigger. It may not have haste, but the body lingers and can block. It can also copy an opposing creature in a pinch, if it's necessary.
The one exception is when she's copying Sun Titan. Because of the way Sun Titan's ability is worded, it will get two triggers (which is pretty bonkers). This is the main reason to play her. Compared to a PI, she gets 6 points of immediate attack damage and an extra trigger, while PI gives a persistent (if a drop fragile) second Titan.
The combo also probably saves one turn off a win versus 2 PIs.
The other side of this is that PI is a creature, and thus can directly contribute to defense by copying the most powerful thing on the board. It's also a bit cheaper to cast (our 3-mana slot is already crowded) and doesn't require a splash.
In short: Saheeli has an edge when you're going on offense or you have a Sun Titan, while PI has an edge earlier and can be used to better effect defensively.
For several reasons, I generally think that in those situations where Saheeli would win us the game, we were probably already going to win. For that reason, I still prefer PI (plus the splash-related issues).
But I totally understand people experimenting with it.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
2. Panharmonicon is nuts!
3. I'm considering dropping the 3rd Emeria and some Ghost Quarters for a better mana base. I only have 1 Sacred Foundry and it sucks =T but having a Mountain in the 60s saved my ass a couple of times yesterday.
4. Blasting Station > Mortarpod even without Fiend Hunter, because we won't need extra mana to equip the token created by Saheeli. That way, we can keep both combos in the deck.