@Gerant that was a fantastic explanation. Thank you for the detailed breakdown of the three cards, and I agree with your assessment. It really is build/meta dependent. Based on your write-up and the decks I’ve been facing off against, GotT answers more problems and has definitely won me matches through his emblem and plus ability. I will likely buy a one of Teferi in the future for testing and when my meta shifts to his strengths. As I had mentioned earlier, I will continue to test my current build this week before posting the list. Been enjoying the return to Modern. Except for Tron of course lol. Game 3 against them always feels like the universe is laughing at me.
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Modern Decks: UWAzorius Titan ControlUW BWOrzhov ControlBW
I am glad you found it useful, and appreciate the compliment. I am always looking to express myself as clearly as I can. For your build and metagame, as long as Gideon of the Trials is a better answer to the noncreature threats you face, stay the course. If that ever changes, you may want to know that I have played with both cards, and find that Teferi, Time Raveler has a much stronger fail-case in the abstract. For me, this has become my most important consideration.
Fluff, the fail-case philosophy is also the reason why I don't see your new card card "taking off" (no pun intended, originally) in the attrition shell, so I will not be too excited about a 3/4 flier for 4 mana. On the other hand, the builds that are running Kami of False Hope and Ranger-Captain of Eos may be extremely interested in testing the effect. The question is what card it will take the place of. Perhaps a build with two or three Kami and four Ranger-Captain plus a situational maindeck Dauntless Bodyguard or Heap Doll can have a sacrifice effect in play reliably enough that they could cut all the 4-mana sweepers to go Death and Taxes-style aggro with it? If the Kami can replace the functionality of mass removal, I don't see why it couldn't be possible. I think it is marginal, but definitely interesting with that in mind.
Strange that it is an insect, I had hoped for other synergies to be a little easier to come by, but then I just though about the amount of degeneracy that could be opened up by Vampire Hexmage with this card, so perhaps easy synergies are too dangerous here. In fact, I think two copies of the vampire go infinite, and a Blood artist in play might be worth looking at after that.
All right, back after a wild little fact-finding mission.
First, the low-hanging fruit. There is a small-ball value game that can be played with Chisei, heart of Oceans, Ferropede, Medicine Runner, and Suncleanser but I have no idea what synergy would be worth tying that pile of cards together. Second, Tatterkite unfortunately was clearly a concern in the design or development of this new card, because short of somehow giving your opponent an Archetype of Imagination, there is no consistent way to ground it permanently while keeping its immunity to counters. I am pretty certain this is true in Modern, unless my understanding of the rules on Overwhelming Splendor and Sudden Spoiling are faulty, and even if so these are not easy cards to break.
Second, I don't think there is a way to generate infinite mana with this "Mothra" (who sports a deceptively legendary-sounding name) in Modern that takes fewer than four cards. It also costs four to begin with, so its options were always going to be limited in terms of competitive support, but I have never enjoyed being blindsided by a Comet Storm kicked twenty million times from a creature-based combo that I could have seen coming, and I always like to check out new candidates for breaking Wild Cantor.
Third, the double Vampire Hexmage combination will work for infinite triggers, so long as you begin the turn with at least one "clean" vampire. Targeting another vampire to remove its counter(s) will return to play a flying version of the one you sacrificed, which can be grounded again by the newly-pristine one that you just targeted. At this point the appeal of Mortician Beetle seems like a good reason to have Ranger-Captain of Eos get involved, whose activated ability is both attrition and protection when building with Mothra in mind.
Fourth, there are many curious and immediately powerful synergies that the card plays very well with, beginning with Butcher Ghoul and Kitchen Finks but ending most notably on Geralf's Messenger and Murderous Redcap, where Persist and Undying can be layered in alternation with Mothra's reanimation. This is because both recursion triggers are under the same person's control and happening simultaneously, so the game rules should grant the option to choose which one to apply. If filler synergies are all that is required, Fume Spitter and Cabal Therapist both already work well with Messenger, but Viscera Seer and Carrion Feeder can fit into the shell mentioned above, as can Yawgmoth, Thran Physician.
Fifth and perhaps most importantly, I think there is a viable, three-card, life-total bounded synergy involving Hex Parasite and Basal Sliver which can incidentally generate 3-9 black mana while also potentially making an arbitrarily large X/1 as of the turn Mothra hits play. Since the she-insect (?) can be cast off a single Fetid Heath in an otherwise base-black deck, this is at least worth looking into. Manaforge Cinder allows Catalyst Elemental to serve as a weak imitation of the interaction or as "fixing" if the mana boost is the relevant part of this combination, but I can't see a good reason for this to be meningfully synergistic with an almost-certainly lethal attacker, other than maybe giving it haste when drawn out of sequence. (Claim // Fame comes to mind).
This is all assuming consistent access to a unique effect, which is typically a recipe for poor deckbuilding, but it flexes mental muscles which are continually relevant in Magic. Among the hodgepodge of abilities that the last three points represent, there might be at least some spaghetti that will stick to the wall, so I will follow this post with a decklist that gets it all out of my system, and then go back to more reasonable lines of thought.
Herald of Serra is obviously just a stand-in for Mothra. I overshot on the enablers, so the undying creatures should be much more numerous, but once the weaker interactions are pruned out there may be something there for someone. This is entirely interaction-free other than on-board tricks, so powering it up should not be a problem if anyone wants to cherry-pick anything that speaks to them. I thought about putting in a Tragic Slip or a Fatal Push as a nod to the fact that Morbid will be very easy to reliably produce on the face of things, but I will leave that to someone whose playset of Thoughtseize needs dusting off.
All in all, it seems like too many three-card dynamics to be really competitive, but I could see things changing very quickly if there were a better tutor available for the 3/4 flier (although I am always looking to find a home for the Transmute cards, and Dimir House Guard is an extremely satisfying fit for the deck as an extra incidental sacrifice outlet).
Now that I have finished reinventing the wheel, I look upon the monstrosity I have created and will simply note that Mothra, Supersonic Queen will probably be a strong alternative backup plan in the already established Junk-coloured Melira combo decks.
Ah, well. It has been a fun ninety minutes. High time I got back to more relevant things. Here is my most recent Emeria list, Chantu9Y :
Forsake the Worldly is a nice card, but in the sideboard it is officially a dangerous card to rely on in many matches where I would want the effect, because it costs 50% more than Disenchant. Since I would still like a spell-based exile effect for Heliod, Sun-Crowned, I am currently checking out the Revoke Existence that hasn't seen play since I was trying to fend off the odd 5/5 Darksteel Citadel while hedging my bets against Hangarback Walker from Scales Affinity. I am far less optimistic at the moment, but I will have to wait on my next tournament to give any true feedback. Perhaps it is conceivable that Klothys, God of Destiny will prove popular enough to justify it.
Nice spotting, Fluff, deck names are sometimes misleading.
I have been trying to figure out what is going on here, but the problem is that the deck registration website is currently down so I cannot see the full tournament's statistics. Judging by the top 8 alone, then, I can only come to the same conclusion as you - the pilot must have metagamed mostly against people who he beat to keep out of the elimination rounds. I am not a huge fan of this strategy in Modern, or with control, and specifically not with Emeria looking at the sacrifices Diogo had to make (they appear to have left him very vulnerable to the rest of the top 8, and I am not surprised to see that he didn't make it out of the quarterfinals).
As it stands, the list is, to put it mildly, unfocused. Suppression Field is a powerful situational effect, but the conditions for its best use are strongly dictated by a reduced timeframe. I have a good deal of experience with the card from back when I just missed on the top 8 of GP Vancouver with Norin Sisters, while that deck was still viable (AKA before the printings of Wrenn and Six, Liliana, the last Hope, and most significantly Walking Ballista, while the Soul Warden effects could still spell auto-wins against the top tier of the metagame in both Burn and Splinter Twin). Every extra turn beyond the first three that you allow your opponent makes the card dramatically worse, since they will have a chance to crack their fetchlands and play around the tax by making natural land drops, so the effect is supported by shortening the game, which the card itself does not contribute to in the slightest. Emeria, the Sky Ruin does very little on that front either, and in fact rewards the opposite philosophy by passing the turn a minimum of eight times before having a chance to accrue value (barring acceleration).
sorry, forgot to reply to this.
my guess on the Grand Abolisher is it adds to the tax already presented by the Suppression field to further demoralize certain decks? that's only my speculation of course.
oh, and since you mention them.. Lightcasters are quite useful against Shadow decks when I used them about a year ago. My playtest buddy has a GDS list. Lightcaster can exile the large black creatures in his deck, as well as the singleton liliana of the veil that he has. If I board wipe, he could still get back creatures with Kolaghan's command, but with lightcaster.. they are exiled permanently. Pretty much his only outs to lightcaster are counter with cryptic, flash block with snap, or lightning bolt it.
I have played with Devout Lightcaster in the past, and I agree that its effect is strong enough to be worth a slot. My point was meant to specify that it is difficult to cast on-curve in the blue splash version, since in addition to the three Emeria, the Sky Ruin and the Mistveil Plains as taplands, there are also three Field of Ruin, two Ghost Quarter, and a Basic Island which can prevent it from being deployed before it spends an extra turn vulnerable to hand disruption. Mono-White builds give it the luxury of extra confidence in the manabase, which is always an advantage as far as any WWW spell is concerned. Celestial Purge takes over its slots in my build. Although it is a worse effect, it is similar and can come in against a wider range of decks. It can also be cast earlier and more easily, while relevantly being an instant against certain combo-ish pieces like Underworld Breach and Murderous Redcap or Arclight Phoenix.
As to your hypothesis about Grand Abolisher working in tandem with Suppression Field, it is a good thought but the two cards do not actually work very well together. In theory the combination would seem to make people jump through extra hoops, but in practice the opponent can choose to play around the tax on their own turn, and simply ignore the timing restriction, so there is not a significant amount of overlap in the inconveniences the cards generate unless you have a forcing play on your own turn (which is generally not the case for control). On top of that, with all the extra mana Emeria allows through Path to Exile, Settle the Wreckage, and natural land drops due to extended games, any sort of soft taxing effect is very likely to become a liability in the long term. I noticed this in the very first versions of the deck I played in Standard, where my Eldrazi-playing opponents would eventually have enough mana to pay for two or even three copies of Mana Leak.
Finally, good spotting on Solemnity ! Staying on-colour with combo pieces opens up a greater diversity of decks that they could fit into. Combo is not what Emeria is about, however, since the setup would have to be better at surviving than cards exclusively dedicated to that purpose. This is why I always feel a heavy advantage in the semi-mirror match against Blasting Station versions of Emeria (which is another option for keeping Mothra on-colour) ; their combo pieces are inconsistent and weaker individually, in addition to discouraging solid gameplay in the abstract.
All this speculation is a fun exercise, in the end, but not a relevant one for a consistent board control/attrition shell.
@Gerant and Fluff, I have played the Stoneforge list you posted along with the more classical version consisting of Flickerwisp and Charming Prince. Both had their strengths and weaknesses as have been mentioned in the thread, and there were cards I found to be fantastic in both lists that I wanted to try and converge. Below is what I settled on after testing online throughout the week, and I've been happy with the list thus far. There's more to tweak (especially sideboard) but the list runs smoothly and combines the familiarity I've had with the past builds with some of the innovations of the newer tech.
Although I have tested each of the cards individually (in addition to playing with and against the more traditional Emeria list) and found that my shell does not support many of the effects you have included, let me say that it is an interesting idea to combine the two, so I will stay open-minded to the possibility that there is a benefit to the card density when many are brought in together.
I am glad to hear that you are finding that the deck runs smoothly. If you want to take your list as far as you can, I will start by putting on my "optimization" hat. First, the land disruption package. I run five of these because I think they are critical despite their downsides, and because it allows me to split the difference between their subtleties. I have two Ghost Quarter because on average the decks I need it against more than Field of Ruin compel me to have access to the effect by around 20-30 cards into the game. Between Field of Ruin and recursion, two copies has covered my requirements. Since six colourless lands has proved to be too many, my 3-2 split was a natural solution. As a singleton, it will likely not be worth the amount of games it costs by not being able to stay even on lands when searching up a Plains for Emeria, the Sky Ruin. Given this, If you want to stay at four colourless lands in your manabase for the purposes of your early curve, I would cut my losses and run four Field of Ruin. At this point, the Crucible of Worlds becomes far less valuable as a play on turns 4 and 5, and therefore may no longer be worth its slot.
Still in "optimization" mode, I would consider the fact that your six copies of Flickerwisp and Charming Prince both do very similar things for the deck internally. Therefore, unless you are looking specifically to blink external targets (in which case I would advocate the inverse of my following advice) I would run four copies of the two-drop that also helps against Burn, and consider the two three-drops a lesser stand-in for it that grant some incidental benefits. "Splitting the difference" 3-3 is not likely to help here more than focusing on the effect you want more. There are sometimes curve considerations at play, but in this case all other things being equal I would be happier to have the extra 2-drop than the extra 3-drop.
Moving on to the sideboard with a similar focus, I think that the Revoke Existence should be a Disenchant here, or another comparable instant, so that you will be able to represent a variety of plays off of two open mana to your opposition. Currently, if I put you on Dovin's Veto, your list has exactly two ways to have me be wrong, and zero ways to gain value if I assume Aven Mindcensor is not a card you wanted to board in. Take your percentage points from hidden information wherever you can: play more instants when you plan on keeping mana open for countermagic. Next, although I don't believe Stony Silence to be a necessary effect in Modern at the moment, I would be willing to entertain a singleton on pure power level. That being said, the second copy is totally redundant and a dead draw when the other one is winning the game in play. I would switch it for another Pithing Needle to have a comparable card which gains more sideboard coverage against non-Artifacts. Finally, I think that Burrenton Forge-Tender is a good card, but likely not the singleton you are looking for if you do not have Ranger-Captain of Eos to go find it. If you want something that does better than trade 1-for-1 with Burn, Lone Missionary is your man as he actually gains ground on their average Lava Spike turns while leaving a 2/1 behind. Kor Firewalker is also an option, or you can look elsewhere for more exciting options.
If you want to take things forward and report on your success with more raw data, I would recommend these three sideboard changes plus the two maindeck ones, and wish you the best of luck. If not, they are not damning critiques, simply my best assessment of the effects on paper given my experiences, and so they should not prevent you from making headway with your build. This kind of research is extremely valuable to provide fuel for future discussions, and to have context for new additions. If you want more card-based critique, this next section is where you will find it, and I will then wrap up with a third more theoretical segment on the strategic implications of your proposed hybrid.
One of my major concerns about the individual utilities of your inclusions is the fact that without Mortarpod and Mistveil Plains, your list will absolutely have games where Stoneforge Mystic is no more than a Squire. This is already a known issue in builds running only 3-of the card with 3 Equipment to fetch, where the ratio is far more favourable than your 4-2 arrangement. The anti-synergy of drawing out the game with a limited number of tutor targets becomes extremely obvious as soon as Emeria, the Sky Ruin comes online. Without an overabundance of support, some of which provides more variety of play as solutions to any given board state, Stoneforge Mystic does not actually provide the kind of value Emeria control is looking for. Where your list is concerned, this will only be all the more obvious when you have so many ways to blink the card that I can imagine your second copy of the Kor Artificer already being redundant by turn three. Its ability to remain a relevant topdeck for accruing value well into the lategame seems suspect in this shell.
The greatest of my concerns with the cards in your list, however, is reserved for Dovin's Veto. Like Stoneforge Mystic, and very like Stony Silence, it is an extremely strong card, and I will never be immediately dismissive of it on pure power level. My feelings, however, are that the tapout nature of the deck is such that the number of times you will have to compromise your own chances in a match by breaking up your mainphase sequencing are not worth the amount of times you will be able to leave open the mana to successfully counter a speculative combo threat. This is compounded by the issue I mentioned above about Flash plays. Even if I include the activated ability of Stoneforge Mystic as a "threat", is the card honestly going to change things against a combo opponent who will by default have a plan against decks far more adept at leveraging instant-speed interaction? My first two years with this deck in Modern assumed that a small amount of sideboard permission was a necessity, but I have more and more considered it generally to be a luxury, and more and more frequently an outright liability. I think the following excerpt from my first posts on page 65 of this thread sums this up reasonably well:
I have found, through extensive testing of many, many sideboard strategies, that countermagic is a losing proposition for the archetype in general. I have tried Negate, Ojutai's Command, Swan song, Dispel, Spell Burst, Condescend, Spell Pierce, Mana Leak, Rune Snag, FlashFreeze, Disdainful Stroke, Steel Sabotage, Annul, and even hard options such as Dovin's Veto and Dissipate. None of these worked. The closest to seeming realistic were the permanent-based versions, Ojutai's Command, Silumgar Sorcerer, Daring Apprentice, and Lunar Force, but even these were eventually removed. Aside from the fact that the UU options were too inconsistent where it mattered, these polluted the tapout plan, and cost games whenever they affected the curve. On top of this, they took up sideboard space devoted to certain matchups, and then failed to win the game even when they resolved. Worse yet, they often did no more than stop a single spell, then left nothing behind. With the printing of Veil of Summer, I believe that the only countermagic worth playing is Glen Elendra Archmage. Full stop. It asks only a single Island for a threat that can cripple combo opponents if they ever stumble, and can be brought in elsewhere.
I have since put Cerulean Drake on the very short list of "counterspell" effects I will seriously consider, bringing the total up to 2, but its function was so limited that it would take a metagame infested with Burn plus something like Gifts Ungiven for it to be a worthwhile proposition. All in all, these critiques are more serious where your build is concerned, because they reflect playstyles and preferences that are maximized by the strategy inherent in activating an Emeria, the Sky Ruin, but if you find that the trade-off is worth your while in the long term I will attribute it to my own previously stated unwillingness to accept any downsides against PT and GP level opposition. My strength has always resided in pre-tournament preparation to prevail over more technically gifted players, and this has often made me unwilling to compromise on deckbuilding, even where some risk could be acceptable.
Now that my card-based criticism is more or less complete, my most fundamental opposition to the list you present resides in my operational theory for the deck. There are three priorities which must be embraced, in order, before I am willing to register a monocoloured tapland - with practically no text until the upkeep of turn nine - for a serious tournament in a format as fast as Modern. First, survive. Second, make my land drop. Third, gain whatever value possible through the first two steps. These are listed in the order they appear because every single maindeck inclusion must both compensate for AND build towards Emeria, and they are expected to do so in the worst possible circumstances (AKA empty-handed and facing lethal damage from a Tarmogoyf with no other spells to combine them with). Lands are necessary to the strategy, and so they receive a blanket pardon for their sins. I will never blame losses on excess land, because by signing up my 75 I have bet that I will win more games from flood than my opposition will. I have been right an overwhelming amount of the time from the moment I accepted this. The single luxury spell in my starting 60 which does not leave value behind in the "lethal attacker" scenario above is a reflection of this fact in Crucible of Worlds, which is more of a concession to the fact that four Sun Titan were too many than anything else, and focuses on lands for step 2 in any case. There is absolutely NO focus on winning the game. I will repeat the spell checklist again, for emphasis:
1) Can it help me survive this combat step?
2) Can it make a future turn scale up in mana?
3) Can it provide some advantage against the opponent?
This leads me to my final point about the inclusion of Flickerwisp and Charming Prince. If the board is clear, these cards put me down a card if I am forced to cast them just to survive, which is an extremely common occurrence. The circumstances under which they do any more than that require me to A) assume the opponent cares about 3 life (possible but not guaranteed), B) assume the opponent has a card I can blink for my own advantage (even less likely), or C) put me in a position of luxury in the first place (which is not a wise gambit overall in a shell that comes from behind as much as this one does). If you disagree with my assessment, I strongly recommend you to imagine a pseudo-mirror match between my version and the others. I do not have to imagine, as my success locally spawned many imitators who simply copied existing lists. Some were newer players who can attribute their losses to a skill gap, but two became relatively accomplished. I have played more than half a dozen sanctioned matches against these two, and I have a record of 6 wins and a draw (the draw having me unable to finish game 3 in a commanding position). More importantly, when we speak of the strategy's performance, they indicate tournament losses that I am genuinely surprised by. Poor luck is a possibility, but this is a trend which has only grown more pronounced over the years.
I try to assess "mirror" matches critically whenever I play them (especially at GPs and PTQs) to see whether there is new technology that I can take advantage of, but I have NEVER felt close to losing a match of constructed Magic against another Emeria deck. Admittedly, the games are mostly a grind which tends to exaggerate value in general, but three things became clear very quickly in my subjective experience. 1) Every time a "blink" effect was drawn, whether it was Prince, Wisp, or even an occasional Restoration Angel, their target had to be either a Wall of Omens, a Court Hussar, or a Thraben Inspector for me to feel any amount of pressure. Otherwise, lo and behold, I would keep pace with their board and they were down a card. This was even more significant when sweepers were assumed to come regularly, since the value targets frequently disappeared before such flicker effects had the chance to replace themselves. Every time they triggered an extra ETB on a Charming Prince or a lone Missionary on the way towards developing their board, any future Wrath of God put me up an extra card. 2) The times when I felt I was ahead were very consistently leading to winning board states, whether it took 2 turns to get there or 12. All I had to do was keep playing each non-removal card I drew, whether I had any other cards to combine them with and whether the board was developed or not. On the other side, my opposition would very often have no targets for their Flickerwisp, and would be stuck falling further and further behind every turn they did not cast it, then be throwing away a card when they did. If they were ahead, they could leverage this for a time, but eventually a reset button would land and the cycle began anew. 3) The types of interactions I am describing are extremely common within the decks that Emeria finds near the top tables when it is itself a good metagame choice. Jund, UW control, Shadow, Junk, all of these decks are Emeria Control's primary competition when it is a good metagame call.
Mortarpod and Pilgrim's Eye may seem ungainly and low-powered, but they have proved themselves time and time again to me as the type of consistent advantage which the deck rewards. If I cast a Stoneforge Mystic on turn four I can either get a Batterskull for next turn or a Mortarpod if I need two chump blockers or some nominal interaction. Whether I am setting up a tapland and a Supreme Verdict, or a Court Hussar into a Wall of Omens, each play in my deck is not assuming anything other than my next untap step go well. I simply play my opponent as well as I can given the cards I have access to, and trust that I have selected those cards to do their job without ever leaving me in a worse position should I have to throw them away entirely in the abstract hope of the turn to come. I do not have to concern myself with whether my own next draw step will punish my play, I just cast the spell or spells that use up my available mana as efficiently as possible, then pass the turn and consciously give my opponent a window in which to kill me. If they do not, I do the same thing again the following turn, this time with one more land in play. The turn afterwards, I will do it again, and then again for as many turns as I am still able to do so. At some point, any other deck will exhaust their ability to withstand the pressure of this demand, and they will lose. The precise details of their loss are unimportant; surviving long enough has always led to a guaranteed winning position. This kind of thinking is only possible because of Emeria, the Sky Ruin, and it is this process by which that card specifically is empowered to win games, which requires no other synergies than passive defensive ones.
This is my honest assessment of your list, and the reason why I would feel far more in command of my destiny at tournaments with mine. As I have stated before elsewhere, this does not mean that other lists cannot win, an in reality there are avenues where other versions WILL win games that I am literally locked out of, but the percentages of these games do not make up for the deficits elsewhere as far as I can tell. This is a board control and attrition shell, and as such question number three in my list falls well below questions number one and two in importance. Until there is an option to generate value or pressure which does not compromise this fundamental truth, I will entertain aggressive options with a similar degree of skepticism.
I wish you success with your build, nonetheless, and hope it brings you valuable information.
hmm, nice list. Looks like eveything is nice and tight there. All I can say is.. go and test it if there's a tournament in your area. Or maybe online?
Theorycrafting is nice.. but the best testing is actually ramming your deck into other decks out there. If you can have a chance to go against some top decks.. then that would give you a wealth of information on what you need to add, and what cards need to go from the main. Goodluck in playing.
Although personally, if I would be playing your deck. The only minor change I would do is to remove 1 charm prince and 1 wisp for two mortarpods. My meta has infect.. no pun intended on covid.. and I feel more at ease when there's guns that could shoot a glistener elf or that 1/1 blue unblockable.
@ Gerant and Fluff,
I have taken both your ideas into account and adjusted accordingly. Thank you both for the critiques as they've made the deck much better. Gerant, very thorough breakdown of the concepts of the deck and card choices as well. The deck has been running more optimally with the updates, however, I'm still running both my and Gerant's lists online to see which offers me a greater edge in the online meta. It's been tough but enjoying the process.
As it's been said, both lists have things to offer and can win games based on certain cards. Ultimately, I'll decide on the one that offers a better percentage against the meta and meets the deck play style that Gerant outlined.
On a side note, have we ever considered a discord for this thread?
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After several days of testing using both decks, I have decided to lean on @Gerants list. My reasoning is this:
As for my qualms with the deck, there are times when I need lifegain and keeping Stoneforge alive to put down a batterskull is a difficult feat. If she dies, turn five is usually too late for the skull to save me. I do miss Flickerwisp and the tricks it could do with Charming Prince, Detention Sphere, and at times, thwarting my opponents plans. Being able to gain more value off multiple ETB triggers isn’t irrelevant either. Lastly, top decking a Mortarpod can be absolutely brutal.
The key points to this build, however, line up with the current meta. There are many /1 dorks that are relevant and Mortarpod has proven its inclusion as well as a way to kill creatures for Emeria triggers. Pilgrims eye is perfect card draw while being a flying blocker. Mistveil plains is clutch in getting back key noncreature cards. But lastly, as it’s been pointed out, Stoneforge gives us another angle to win. There were times when my graveyard was exiled or Emeria was blown up and it didn’t matter because it was still going in with a recurring Batterskull.
This deck build definitely lives up to the attrition/tap out aspect of the deck and requires/rewards strong play on the pilots end. It’s certainly growing on me and I hope to continue to improve on my comfort level with the deck.
As for the new set, everything I’ve seen thus far has been disappointing. I hope we can at least get a card for consideration.
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I think that's actually a good choice. Losing the blink effects feels a bit bad.. but Sfm + Batterskull + Mortarpod compensate us just fine. Having pod around also gives us a way to finish off an opponent who has low life, but got plenty of blockers or have an ensnaring bridge.
Tried a league with your recent list GerantDePhares. Ended up 3/2 again. Won against Storm, Burn, and Yawgmoth Combo. Lost to Dredge and Ponza. The deck felt pretty solid, if there's anything in it that I'm unsure of, Crucible Of Worlds felt super weak. It's probably at it's best in super grindy matches, but it just did.....nothing at all for me. I dunno though, I might be missing something.
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It's flavor-tastic
Sig made by Tiiratore. PM him if you want one.
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My Decks:
Modern:
(online)Enduring Ideal
(online)BUG
(paper)Mono White Control
Standard:
(paper) Whatever I can throw together
(online) UWR Control
Chantu9Y: good to hear, thank you; I hope it goes well for you. Let me know what you have been testing against, and I will gladly help discuss any changes or subtleties that you might feel need exploration. From what you say about "keeping Stoneforge alive" (I am not sure if you missed something after the colon in your last comment, by the way, it feels as though it may have been a little disjointed by an edit somewhere), I think you might be overvaluing the activated ability on Stoneforge Mystic. I generally attempt to disrupt my opponent's focus with the card by playing it, then chump-blocking aggressively, as when that is the goal its death should never leave you in a worse position to topdeck a sweeper than when it was cast. Can you explain what situations you are being put in that might explain why you feel that Batterskull must "save" you? The only deck where I think this is categorically true is Burn, and having that strategy's pilot point a Lightning Helix, a Lightning Bolt, or a Rift Bolt at a creature instead of life total is, in fact, the goal. If they have Searing Blaze, then fair play to them. Otherwise, throw it in front of Goblin Guide and Monastery Swiftspear every chance you get. Any one of these scenarios slows Burn down by the turn it takes for their mathematical flood problems to start cropping up - at which point hardcasting the lifelinking Germ is likely to become viable again. It takes a while to make this instinct reflexive, but you generally cannot play the Mystic as you would with any other list here (the major exception being against Combo when you know they have little interaction and/or you are trying to make lemonade).
Please let me know if I am off-base here, but I have a feeling that your intuition may be leading you astray in sequencing.
Saint Tobias: nice to hear from you; good job on the win against Storm. How did the games go? I assume you won the two post-board games with graveyard disruption plus spot removal and/or Lavinia slowing them down? Please tell me what happened with Burn and Yawgmoth as well - these are better matchups, but data is data. As for Dredge, the games are back and forth, and take a little while to grow accustomed to, but the advantage is ours, so I would guess they had at least one blowout draw, but the other game(s) should have been competitive - let me know if they were not. How did you feel during the match? Were there any points of interaction you were uncertain of? Finally, I am most surprised by a loss against Ponza. What did they kill you with? What did you sideboard in and out? Was the list innovating something new? Since Mycosynth Lattice left the picture, their best lategame is gone, and the remainder can be cleanly dismantled, given time, so I assume this must have been possible unless they surprised you with something unexpected. On another note, if Crucible of Worlds is not feeling like a good card, I recommend you put the fourth Sun Titan back in the deck. I personally found four six-drops to be too many, but the Artifact was a compromise for the fact that I needed access to something like its effect locally in longer games. Your opposition did not seem all that late-game oriented, but there are times when Crucible/Emeria/Titan can recur each other through multiple layers of disruption. If these are irrelevant, feel free to try out Titan #4 first, then if you are Mulliganing too much you can re-evaluate with more information about what you might want it to be. There are many different options that can be tailored to your metagame.
Tournament reports are generally welcomed in this thread, by the way. Not only does it help others make decisions on potential inclusions to their builds, but Fluff is always looking for examples to point to for detailed analysis to keep his excellent work going.
As usual, I am taking it for granted that any advice I give will be valid when assuming the following 75 cards:
I have not felt too impressed by much in Ikoria for control so far, but I am not looking for much at the moment. A better hate piece or two might be an upgrade, but the thing about Emeria during spoiler season is that the effects must fit in a very small window to see play, so I generally don't expect a huge boost. One card with marginal potential is the 1/3 human for 1W, Drannith Magistrate, who can prevent cards from being cast from other places than the hand. Things like Bring to Light and Light up the Stage are perhaps worth some extra incidental overlap on Underworld Breach and, since this version of the deck likes to deny value, Flashback or Cascade spells are nice to have options against. I will try to trade for a copy or two once the initial prices die down, but I expect it will be a long time before it displaces Lavinia (even if it may supplement it at some point).
There are still around 100 cards to go, though, and if nothing else I am still wondering if there is a chance that the last companion card might be an option for us. By my count, we have had 9 of the 10 two-colour pair hybrid creatures, and the only one left will be the u/w u/w hybrid. Being essentially a free bonus card with an easy on-colour casting cost makes it already something I am interested in sight unseen, if we can meet its restriction with little or no extra effort. More to the point, though, the effects on the cycle have ranged from "good value" to "obviously pushed" so I am intrigued by the possibility of having a new option if it is anywhere in the 2-7 mana range. Our as-yet unknown legend will probably be spoiled sometime tomorrow, so I plan to be on the lookout for it.
@ Gerant, I guess I am overvaluing it’s activated ability as I try to keep it alive and avoid chump blocking with it. There have been games against aggro or combo decks where I find myself either needing life gain by turn 4 or things will get out of hand or I need to apply early pressure before they go off. An example of this would be a Through the Breach deck I faced yesterday. Without Dovins Veto, I cant disrupt the combo and need to kill them quickly. I may just need to do better with my mulligans when it comes to aggro but game ones without early life gain can cost me. I’ll certainly be working on my mulligans and sequencing this weekend.
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Modern Decks: UWAzorius Titan ControlUW BWOrzhov ControlBW
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UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I am glad you found it useful, and appreciate the compliment. I am always looking to express myself as clearly as I can. For your build and metagame, as long as Gideon of the Trials is a better answer to the noncreature threats you face, stay the course. If that ever changes, you may want to know that I have played with both cards, and find that Teferi, Time Raveler has a much stronger fail-case in the abstract. For me, this has become my most important consideration.
Fluff, the fail-case philosophy is also the reason why I don't see your new card card "taking off" (no pun intended, originally) in the attrition shell, so I will not be too excited about a 3/4 flier for 4 mana. On the other hand, the builds that are running Kami of False Hope and Ranger-Captain of Eos may be extremely interested in testing the effect. The question is what card it will take the place of. Perhaps a build with two or three Kami and four Ranger-Captain plus a situational maindeck Dauntless Bodyguard or Heap Doll can have a sacrifice effect in play reliably enough that they could cut all the 4-mana sweepers to go Death and Taxes-style aggro with it? If the Kami can replace the functionality of mass removal, I don't see why it couldn't be possible. I think it is marginal, but definitely interesting with that in mind.
Strange that it is an insect, I had hoped for other synergies to be a little easier to come by, but then I just though about the amount of degeneracy that could be opened up by Vampire Hexmage with this card, so perhaps easy synergies are too dangerous here. In fact, I think two copies of the vampire go infinite, and a Blood artist in play might be worth looking at after that.
Just a second. I am going to do some research.
First, the low-hanging fruit. There is a small-ball value game that can be played with Chisei, heart of Oceans, Ferropede, Medicine Runner, and Suncleanser but I have no idea what synergy would be worth tying that pile of cards together. Second, Tatterkite unfortunately was clearly a concern in the design or development of this new card, because short of somehow giving your opponent an Archetype of Imagination, there is no consistent way to ground it permanently while keeping its immunity to counters. I am pretty certain this is true in Modern, unless my understanding of the rules on Overwhelming Splendor and Sudden Spoiling are faulty, and even if so these are not easy cards to break.
Second, I don't think there is a way to generate infinite mana with this "Mothra" (who sports a deceptively legendary-sounding name) in Modern that takes fewer than four cards. It also costs four to begin with, so its options were always going to be limited in terms of competitive support, but I have never enjoyed being blindsided by a Comet Storm kicked twenty million times from a creature-based combo that I could have seen coming, and I always like to check out new candidates for breaking Wild Cantor.
Third, the double Vampire Hexmage combination will work for infinite triggers, so long as you begin the turn with at least one "clean" vampire. Targeting another vampire to remove its counter(s) will return to play a flying version of the one you sacrificed, which can be grounded again by the newly-pristine one that you just targeted. At this point the appeal of Mortician Beetle seems like a good reason to have Ranger-Captain of Eos get involved, whose activated ability is both attrition and protection when building with Mothra in mind.
Fourth, there are many curious and immediately powerful synergies that the card plays very well with, beginning with Butcher Ghoul and Kitchen Finks but ending most notably on Geralf's Messenger and Murderous Redcap, where Persist and Undying can be layered in alternation with Mothra's reanimation. This is because both recursion triggers are under the same person's control and happening simultaneously, so the game rules should grant the option to choose which one to apply. If filler synergies are all that is required, Fume Spitter and Cabal Therapist both already work well with Messenger, but Viscera Seer and Carrion Feeder can fit into the shell mentioned above, as can Yawgmoth, Thran Physician.
Fifth and perhaps most importantly, I think there is a viable, three-card, life-total bounded synergy involving Hex Parasite and Basal Sliver which can incidentally generate 3-9 black mana while also potentially making an arbitrarily large X/1 as of the turn Mothra hits play. Since the she-insect (?) can be cast off a single Fetid Heath in an otherwise base-black deck, this is at least worth looking into. Manaforge Cinder allows Catalyst Elemental to serve as a weak imitation of the interaction or as "fixing" if the mana boost is the relevant part of this combination, but I can't see a good reason for this to be meningfully synergistic with an almost-certainly lethal attacker, other than maybe giving it haste when drawn out of sequence. (Claim // Fame comes to mind).
This is all assuming consistent access to a unique effect, which is typically a recipe for poor deckbuilding, but it flexes mental muscles which are continually relevant in Magic. Among the hodgepodge of abilities that the last three points represent, there might be at least some spaghetti that will stick to the wall, so I will follow this post with a decklist that gets it all out of my system, and then go back to more reasonable lines of thought.
2 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
1 Witch's Cottage
6 Swamp
4 Herald of Serra
2 Geralf's Messenger
2 Ranger-Captain of Eos
1 Butcher Ghoul
1 Kami of False Hope
1 Cadaver Imp
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Corpse Connoisseur
1 Fleshwrither
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Gruesome Menagerie
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Yawgmoth, Thran Physician
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Viscera Seer
1 Mortician Beetle
1 Cabal Therapist
4 Hex Parasite
4 Basal Sliver
2 Bloodthrone Vampire
1 Corpse Hauler
1 Walking Ballista
Herald of Serra is obviously just a stand-in for Mothra. I overshot on the enablers, so the undying creatures should be much more numerous, but once the weaker interactions are pruned out there may be something there for someone. This is entirely interaction-free other than on-board tricks, so powering it up should not be a problem if anyone wants to cherry-pick anything that speaks to them. I thought about putting in a Tragic Slip or a Fatal Push as a nod to the fact that Morbid will be very easy to reliably produce on the face of things, but I will leave that to someone whose playset of Thoughtseize needs dusting off.
All in all, it seems like too many three-card dynamics to be really competitive, but I could see things changing very quickly if there were a better tutor available for the 3/4 flier (although I am always looking to find a home for the Transmute cards, and Dimir House Guard is an extremely satisfying fit for the deck as an extra incidental sacrifice outlet).
Ah, well. It has been a fun ninety minutes. High time I got back to more relevant things. Here is my most recent Emeria list, Chantu9Y :
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Pilgrim's Eye
3 Court Hussar
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Batterskull
3 Sun Titan
3 Mortarpod
2 Detention Sphere
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Settle the Wreckage
4 Path to Exile
7 Plains
3 Field of Ruin
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Prairie Stream
1 Island
1 Mistveil Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Remorseful Cleric
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Lone Missionary
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
2 Pithing Needle
2 Celestial Purge
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Revoke Existence
1 Aura of Silence
Forsake the Worldly is a nice card, but in the sideboard it is officially a dangerous card to rely on in many matches where I would want the effect, because it costs 50% more than Disenchant. Since I would still like a spell-based exile effect for Heliod, Sun-Crowned, I am currently checking out the Revoke Existence that hasn't seen play since I was trying to fend off the odd 5/5 Darksteel Citadel while hedging my bets against Hangarback Walker from Scales Affinity. I am far less optimistic at the moment, but I will have to wait on my next tournament to give any true feedback. Perhaps it is conceivable that Klothys, God of Destiny will prove popular enough to justify it.
that looks like a fun melira deck you created.
_____________
well, and there's at least another combo. Too bad we don't really play any of these cards in the deck.
Mothra + solemnity + altar of dementia = infinite mill combo
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
sorry, forgot to reply to this.
my guess on the Grand Abolisher is it adds to the tax already presented by the Suppression field to further demoralize certain decks? that's only my speculation of course.
oh, and since you mention them.. Lightcasters are quite useful against Shadow decks when I used them about a year ago. My playtest buddy has a GDS list. Lightcaster can exile the large black creatures in his deck, as well as the singleton liliana of the veil that he has. If I board wipe, he could still get back creatures with Kolaghan's command, but with lightcaster.. they are exiled permanently. Pretty much his only outs to lightcaster are counter with cryptic, flash block with snap, or lightning bolt it.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I have played with Devout Lightcaster in the past, and I agree that its effect is strong enough to be worth a slot. My point was meant to specify that it is difficult to cast on-curve in the blue splash version, since in addition to the three Emeria, the Sky Ruin and the Mistveil Plains as taplands, there are also three Field of Ruin, two Ghost Quarter, and a Basic Island which can prevent it from being deployed before it spends an extra turn vulnerable to hand disruption. Mono-White builds give it the luxury of extra confidence in the manabase, which is always an advantage as far as any WWW spell is concerned. Celestial Purge takes over its slots in my build. Although it is a worse effect, it is similar and can come in against a wider range of decks. It can also be cast earlier and more easily, while relevantly being an instant against certain combo-ish pieces like Underworld Breach and Murderous Redcap or Arclight Phoenix.
As to your hypothesis about Grand Abolisher working in tandem with Suppression Field, it is a good thought but the two cards do not actually work very well together. In theory the combination would seem to make people jump through extra hoops, but in practice the opponent can choose to play around the tax on their own turn, and simply ignore the timing restriction, so there is not a significant amount of overlap in the inconveniences the cards generate unless you have a forcing play on your own turn (which is generally not the case for control). On top of that, with all the extra mana Emeria allows through Path to Exile, Settle the Wreckage, and natural land drops due to extended games, any sort of soft taxing effect is very likely to become a liability in the long term. I noticed this in the very first versions of the deck I played in Standard, where my Eldrazi-playing opponents would eventually have enough mana to pay for two or even three copies of Mana Leak.
Finally, good spotting on Solemnity ! Staying on-colour with combo pieces opens up a greater diversity of decks that they could fit into. Combo is not what Emeria is about, however, since the setup would have to be better at surviving than cards exclusively dedicated to that purpose. This is why I always feel a heavy advantage in the semi-mirror match against Blasting Station versions of Emeria (which is another option for keeping Mothra on-colour) ; their combo pieces are inconsistent and weaker individually, in addition to discouraging solid gameplay in the abstract.
All this speculation is a fun exercise, in the end, but not a relevant one for a consistent board control/attrition shell.
3 Charming Prince
3 Court Hussar
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Detention Sphere
2 Dovin's Veto
3 Flickerwisp
1 Gideon of the Trials
4 Path to Exile
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Sun Titan
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Batterskull
4 Wall of Omens
1 Wrath of God
1 Winds of Abandon
3 Field of Ruin
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Irrigated Farmland
1 Island
1 Prairie Stream
3 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
7 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Damping Sphere
1 Revoke Existence
2 Dovin's Veto
1 Pithing Needle
3 Remorseful Cleric
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Stony Silence
Feel free to let me know your thoughts/critiques.
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
Although I have tested each of the cards individually (in addition to playing with and against the more traditional Emeria list) and found that my shell does not support many of the effects you have included, let me say that it is an interesting idea to combine the two, so I will stay open-minded to the possibility that there is a benefit to the card density when many are brought in together.
I am glad to hear that you are finding that the deck runs smoothly. If you want to take your list as far as you can, I will start by putting on my "optimization" hat. First, the land disruption package. I run five of these because I think they are critical despite their downsides, and because it allows me to split the difference between their subtleties. I have two Ghost Quarter because on average the decks I need it against more than Field of Ruin compel me to have access to the effect by around 20-30 cards into the game. Between Field of Ruin and recursion, two copies has covered my requirements. Since six colourless lands has proved to be too many, my 3-2 split was a natural solution. As a singleton, it will likely not be worth the amount of games it costs by not being able to stay even on lands when searching up a Plains for Emeria, the Sky Ruin. Given this, If you want to stay at four colourless lands in your manabase for the purposes of your early curve, I would cut my losses and run four Field of Ruin. At this point, the Crucible of Worlds becomes far less valuable as a play on turns 4 and 5, and therefore may no longer be worth its slot.
Still in "optimization" mode, I would consider the fact that your six copies of Flickerwisp and Charming Prince both do very similar things for the deck internally. Therefore, unless you are looking specifically to blink external targets (in which case I would advocate the inverse of my following advice) I would run four copies of the two-drop that also helps against Burn, and consider the two three-drops a lesser stand-in for it that grant some incidental benefits. "Splitting the difference" 3-3 is not likely to help here more than focusing on the effect you want more. There are sometimes curve considerations at play, but in this case all other things being equal I would be happier to have the extra 2-drop than the extra 3-drop.
Moving on to the sideboard with a similar focus, I think that the Revoke Existence should be a Disenchant here, or another comparable instant, so that you will be able to represent a variety of plays off of two open mana to your opposition. Currently, if I put you on Dovin's Veto, your list has exactly two ways to have me be wrong, and zero ways to gain value if I assume Aven Mindcensor is not a card you wanted to board in. Take your percentage points from hidden information wherever you can: play more instants when you plan on keeping mana open for countermagic. Next, although I don't believe Stony Silence to be a necessary effect in Modern at the moment, I would be willing to entertain a singleton on pure power level. That being said, the second copy is totally redundant and a dead draw when the other one is winning the game in play. I would switch it for another Pithing Needle to have a comparable card which gains more sideboard coverage against non-Artifacts. Finally, I think that Burrenton Forge-Tender is a good card, but likely not the singleton you are looking for if you do not have Ranger-Captain of Eos to go find it. If you want something that does better than trade 1-for-1 with Burn, Lone Missionary is your man as he actually gains ground on their average Lava Spike turns while leaving a 2/1 behind. Kor Firewalker is also an option, or you can look elsewhere for more exciting options.
If you want to take things forward and report on your success with more raw data, I would recommend these three sideboard changes plus the two maindeck ones, and wish you the best of luck. If not, they are not damning critiques, simply my best assessment of the effects on paper given my experiences, and so they should not prevent you from making headway with your build. This kind of research is extremely valuable to provide fuel for future discussions, and to have context for new additions. If you want more card-based critique, this next section is where you will find it, and I will then wrap up with a third more theoretical segment on the strategic implications of your proposed hybrid.
One of my major concerns about the individual utilities of your inclusions is the fact that without Mortarpod and Mistveil Plains, your list will absolutely have games where Stoneforge Mystic is no more than a Squire. This is already a known issue in builds running only 3-of the card with 3 Equipment to fetch, where the ratio is far more favourable than your 4-2 arrangement. The anti-synergy of drawing out the game with a limited number of tutor targets becomes extremely obvious as soon as Emeria, the Sky Ruin comes online. Without an overabundance of support, some of which provides more variety of play as solutions to any given board state, Stoneforge Mystic does not actually provide the kind of value Emeria control is looking for. Where your list is concerned, this will only be all the more obvious when you have so many ways to blink the card that I can imagine your second copy of the Kor Artificer already being redundant by turn three. Its ability to remain a relevant topdeck for accruing value well into the lategame seems suspect in this shell.
The greatest of my concerns with the cards in your list, however, is reserved for Dovin's Veto. Like Stoneforge Mystic, and very like Stony Silence, it is an extremely strong card, and I will never be immediately dismissive of it on pure power level. My feelings, however, are that the tapout nature of the deck is such that the number of times you will have to compromise your own chances in a match by breaking up your mainphase sequencing are not worth the amount of times you will be able to leave open the mana to successfully counter a speculative combo threat. This is compounded by the issue I mentioned above about Flash plays. Even if I include the activated ability of Stoneforge Mystic as a "threat", is the card honestly going to change things against a combo opponent who will by default have a plan against decks far more adept at leveraging instant-speed interaction? My first two years with this deck in Modern assumed that a small amount of sideboard permission was a necessity, but I have more and more considered it generally to be a luxury, and more and more frequently an outright liability. I think the following excerpt from my first posts on page 65 of this thread sums this up reasonably well:
I have since put Cerulean Drake on the very short list of "counterspell" effects I will seriously consider, bringing the total up to 2, but its function was so limited that it would take a metagame infested with Burn plus something like Gifts Ungiven for it to be a worthwhile proposition. All in all, these critiques are more serious where your build is concerned, because they reflect playstyles and preferences that are maximized by the strategy inherent in activating an Emeria, the Sky Ruin, but if you find that the trade-off is worth your while in the long term I will attribute it to my own previously stated unwillingness to accept any downsides against PT and GP level opposition. My strength has always resided in pre-tournament preparation to prevail over more technically gifted players, and this has often made me unwilling to compromise on deckbuilding, even where some risk could be acceptable.
Now that my card-based criticism is more or less complete, my most fundamental opposition to the list you present resides in my operational theory for the deck. There are three priorities which must be embraced, in order, before I am willing to register a monocoloured tapland - with practically no text until the upkeep of turn nine - for a serious tournament in a format as fast as Modern. First, survive. Second, make my land drop. Third, gain whatever value possible through the first two steps. These are listed in the order they appear because every single maindeck inclusion must both compensate for AND build towards Emeria, and they are expected to do so in the worst possible circumstances (AKA empty-handed and facing lethal damage from a Tarmogoyf with no other spells to combine them with). Lands are necessary to the strategy, and so they receive a blanket pardon for their sins. I will never blame losses on excess land, because by signing up my 75 I have bet that I will win more games from flood than my opposition will. I have been right an overwhelming amount of the time from the moment I accepted this. The single luxury spell in my starting 60 which does not leave value behind in the "lethal attacker" scenario above is a reflection of this fact in Crucible of Worlds, which is more of a concession to the fact that four Sun Titan were too many than anything else, and focuses on lands for step 2 in any case. There is absolutely NO focus on winning the game. I will repeat the spell checklist again, for emphasis:
1) Can it help me survive this combat step?
2) Can it make a future turn scale up in mana?
3) Can it provide some advantage against the opponent?
This leads me to my final point about the inclusion of Flickerwisp and Charming Prince. If the board is clear, these cards put me down a card if I am forced to cast them just to survive, which is an extremely common occurrence. The circumstances under which they do any more than that require me to A) assume the opponent cares about 3 life (possible but not guaranteed), B) assume the opponent has a card I can blink for my own advantage (even less likely), or C) put me in a position of luxury in the first place (which is not a wise gambit overall in a shell that comes from behind as much as this one does). If you disagree with my assessment, I strongly recommend you to imagine a pseudo-mirror match between my version and the others. I do not have to imagine, as my success locally spawned many imitators who simply copied existing lists. Some were newer players who can attribute their losses to a skill gap, but two became relatively accomplished. I have played more than half a dozen sanctioned matches against these two, and I have a record of 6 wins and a draw (the draw having me unable to finish game 3 in a commanding position). More importantly, when we speak of the strategy's performance, they indicate tournament losses that I am genuinely surprised by. Poor luck is a possibility, but this is a trend which has only grown more pronounced over the years.
I try to assess "mirror" matches critically whenever I play them (especially at GPs and PTQs) to see whether there is new technology that I can take advantage of, but I have NEVER felt close to losing a match of constructed Magic against another Emeria deck. Admittedly, the games are mostly a grind which tends to exaggerate value in general, but three things became clear very quickly in my subjective experience. 1) Every time a "blink" effect was drawn, whether it was Prince, Wisp, or even an occasional Restoration Angel, their target had to be either a Wall of Omens, a Court Hussar, or a Thraben Inspector for me to feel any amount of pressure. Otherwise, lo and behold, I would keep pace with their board and they were down a card. This was even more significant when sweepers were assumed to come regularly, since the value targets frequently disappeared before such flicker effects had the chance to replace themselves. Every time they triggered an extra ETB on a Charming Prince or a lone Missionary on the way towards developing their board, any future Wrath of God put me up an extra card. 2) The times when I felt I was ahead were very consistently leading to winning board states, whether it took 2 turns to get there or 12. All I had to do was keep playing each non-removal card I drew, whether I had any other cards to combine them with and whether the board was developed or not. On the other side, my opposition would very often have no targets for their Flickerwisp, and would be stuck falling further and further behind every turn they did not cast it, then be throwing away a card when they did. If they were ahead, they could leverage this for a time, but eventually a reset button would land and the cycle began anew. 3) The types of interactions I am describing are extremely common within the decks that Emeria finds near the top tables when it is itself a good metagame choice. Jund, UW control, Shadow, Junk, all of these decks are Emeria Control's primary competition when it is a good metagame call.
Mortarpod and Pilgrim's Eye may seem ungainly and low-powered, but they have proved themselves time and time again to me as the type of consistent advantage which the deck rewards. If I cast a Stoneforge Mystic on turn four I can either get a Batterskull for next turn or a Mortarpod if I need two chump blockers or some nominal interaction. Whether I am setting up a tapland and a Supreme Verdict, or a Court Hussar into a Wall of Omens, each play in my deck is not assuming anything other than my next untap step go well. I simply play my opponent as well as I can given the cards I have access to, and trust that I have selected those cards to do their job without ever leaving me in a worse position should I have to throw them away entirely in the abstract hope of the turn to come. I do not have to concern myself with whether my own next draw step will punish my play, I just cast the spell or spells that use up my available mana as efficiently as possible, then pass the turn and consciously give my opponent a window in which to kill me. If they do not, I do the same thing again the following turn, this time with one more land in play. The turn afterwards, I will do it again, and then again for as many turns as I am still able to do so. At some point, any other deck will exhaust their ability to withstand the pressure of this demand, and they will lose. The precise details of their loss are unimportant; surviving long enough has always led to a guaranteed winning position. This kind of thinking is only possible because of Emeria, the Sky Ruin, and it is this process by which that card specifically is empowered to win games, which requires no other synergies than passive defensive ones.
This is my honest assessment of your list, and the reason why I would feel far more in command of my destiny at tournaments with mine. As I have stated before elsewhere, this does not mean that other lists cannot win, an in reality there are avenues where other versions WILL win games that I am literally locked out of, but the percentages of these games do not make up for the deficits elsewhere as far as I can tell. This is a board control and attrition shell, and as such question number three in my list falls well below questions number one and two in importance. Until there is an option to generate value or pressure which does not compromise this fundamental truth, I will entertain aggressive options with a similar degree of skepticism.
I wish you success with your build, nonetheless, and hope it brings you valuable information.
hmm, nice list. Looks like eveything is nice and tight there. All I can say is.. go and test it if there's a tournament in your area. Or maybe online?
Theorycrafting is nice.. but the best testing is actually ramming your deck into other decks out there. If you can have a chance to go against some top decks.. then that would give you a wealth of information on what you need to add, and what cards need to go from the main. Goodluck in playing.
Although personally, if I would be playing your deck. The only minor change I would do is to remove 1 charm prince and 1 wisp for two mortarpods. My meta has infect.. no pun intended on covid.. and I feel more at ease when there's guns that could shoot a glistener elf or that 1/1 blue unblockable.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
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I have taken both your ideas into account and adjusted accordingly. Thank you both for the critiques as they've made the deck much better. Gerant, very thorough breakdown of the concepts of the deck and card choices as well. The deck has been running more optimally with the updates, however, I'm still running both my and Gerant's lists online to see which offers me a greater edge in the online meta. It's been tough but enjoying the process.
4 Charming Prince
3 Court Hussar
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Detention Sphere
2 Flickerwisp
1 Gideon of the Trials
4 Path to Exile
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Sun Titan
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Batterskull
4 Wall of Omens
1 Wrath of God
1 Winds of Abandon
3 Field of Ruin
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Prairie Stream
3 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
7 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Mistveil Plains
2 Mortarpod
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Lone Missionary
2 Damping Sphere
1 Disenchant
2 Dovin's Veto
2 Pithing Needle
3 Remorseful Cleric
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Stony Silence
As it's been said, both lists have things to offer and can win games based on certain cards. Ultimately, I'll decide on the one that offers a better percentage against the meta and meets the deck play style that Gerant outlined.
On a side note, have we ever considered a discord for this thread?
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
Oh, and I'm still hoping we might get something from the new set.
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As for my qualms with the deck, there are times when I need lifegain and keeping Stoneforge alive to put down a batterskull is a difficult feat. If she dies, turn five is usually too late for the skull to save me. I do miss Flickerwisp and the tricks it could do with Charming Prince, Detention Sphere, and at times, thwarting my opponents plans. Being able to gain more value off multiple ETB triggers isn’t irrelevant either. Lastly, top decking a Mortarpod can be absolutely brutal.
The key points to this build, however, line up with the current meta. There are many /1 dorks that are relevant and Mortarpod has proven its inclusion as well as a way to kill creatures for Emeria triggers. Pilgrims eye is perfect card draw while being a flying blocker. Mistveil plains is clutch in getting back key noncreature cards. But lastly, as it’s been pointed out, Stoneforge gives us another angle to win. There were times when my graveyard was exiled or Emeria was blown up and it didn’t matter because it was still going in with a recurring Batterskull.
This deck build definitely lives up to the attrition/tap out aspect of the deck and requires/rewards strong play on the pilots end. It’s certainly growing on me and I hope to continue to improve on my comfort level with the deck.
As for the new set, everything I’ve seen thus far has been disappointing. I hope we can at least get a card for consideration.
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Modern:
(online)Enduring Ideal
(online)BUG
(paper)Mono White Control
Standard:
(paper) Whatever I can throw together
(online) UWR Control
Legacy:
(paper)The Gate
(paper)Dream Halls
Chantu9Y: good to hear, thank you; I hope it goes well for you. Let me know what you have been testing against, and I will gladly help discuss any changes or subtleties that you might feel need exploration. From what you say about "keeping Stoneforge alive" (I am not sure if you missed something after the colon in your last comment, by the way, it feels as though it may have been a little disjointed by an edit somewhere), I think you might be overvaluing the activated ability on Stoneforge Mystic. I generally attempt to disrupt my opponent's focus with the card by playing it, then chump-blocking aggressively, as when that is the goal its death should never leave you in a worse position to topdeck a sweeper than when it was cast. Can you explain what situations you are being put in that might explain why you feel that Batterskull must "save" you? The only deck where I think this is categorically true is Burn, and having that strategy's pilot point a Lightning Helix, a Lightning Bolt, or a Rift Bolt at a creature instead of life total is, in fact, the goal. If they have Searing Blaze, then fair play to them. Otherwise, throw it in front of Goblin Guide and Monastery Swiftspear every chance you get. Any one of these scenarios slows Burn down by the turn it takes for their mathematical flood problems to start cropping up - at which point hardcasting the lifelinking Germ is likely to become viable again. It takes a while to make this instinct reflexive, but you generally cannot play the Mystic as you would with any other list here (the major exception being against Combo when you know they have little interaction and/or you are trying to make lemonade).
Please let me know if I am off-base here, but I have a feeling that your intuition may be leading you astray in sequencing.
Saint Tobias: nice to hear from you; good job on the win against Storm. How did the games go? I assume you won the two post-board games with graveyard disruption plus spot removal and/or Lavinia slowing them down? Please tell me what happened with Burn and Yawgmoth as well - these are better matchups, but data is data. As for Dredge, the games are back and forth, and take a little while to grow accustomed to, but the advantage is ours, so I would guess they had at least one blowout draw, but the other game(s) should have been competitive - let me know if they were not. How did you feel during the match? Were there any points of interaction you were uncertain of? Finally, I am most surprised by a loss against Ponza. What did they kill you with? What did you sideboard in and out? Was the list innovating something new? Since Mycosynth Lattice left the picture, their best lategame is gone, and the remainder can be cleanly dismantled, given time, so I assume this must have been possible unless they surprised you with something unexpected. On another note, if Crucible of Worlds is not feeling like a good card, I recommend you put the fourth Sun Titan back in the deck. I personally found four six-drops to be too many, but the Artifact was a compromise for the fact that I needed access to something like its effect locally in longer games. Your opposition did not seem all that late-game oriented, but there are times when Crucible/Emeria/Titan can recur each other through multiple layers of disruption. If these are irrelevant, feel free to try out Titan #4 first, then if you are Mulliganing too much you can re-evaluate with more information about what you might want it to be. There are many different options that can be tailored to your metagame.
Tournament reports are generally welcomed in this thread, by the way. Not only does it help others make decisions on potential inclusions to their builds, but Fluff is always looking for examples to point to for detailed analysis to keep his excellent work going.
As usual, I am taking it for granted that any advice I give will be valid when assuming the following 75 cards:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Pilgrim's Eye
3 Court Hussar
3 Sun Titan
2 Batterskull
3 Mortarpod
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Detention Sphere
1 Wrath of God
1 Settle the Wreckage
4 Path to Exile
3 Emeria, The Sky Ruin
7 Plains
3 Field of Ruin
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Prairie Stream
1 Island
1 Mistveil Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Lone Missionary
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
2 Pithing Needle
2 Celestial Purge
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Disenchant
1 Aura of Silence
It makes discussion more accessible for people looking in. If anything is different for the list(s) you are running, please say so.
-Stéphane
I have not felt too impressed by much in Ikoria for control so far, but I am not looking for much at the moment. A better hate piece or two might be an upgrade, but the thing about Emeria during spoiler season is that the effects must fit in a very small window to see play, so I generally don't expect a huge boost. One card with marginal potential is the 1/3 human for 1W, Drannith Magistrate, who can prevent cards from being cast from other places than the hand. Things like Bring to Light and Light up the Stage are perhaps worth some extra incidental overlap on Underworld Breach and, since this version of the deck likes to deny value, Flashback or Cascade spells are nice to have options against. I will try to trade for a copy or two once the initial prices die down, but I expect it will be a long time before it displaces Lavinia (even if it may supplement it at some point).
There are still around 100 cards to go, though, and if nothing else I am still wondering if there is a chance that the last companion card might be an option for us. By my count, we have had 9 of the 10 two-colour pair hybrid creatures, and the only one left will be the u/w u/w hybrid. Being essentially a free bonus card with an easy on-colour casting cost makes it already something I am interested in sight unseen, if we can meet its restriction with little or no extra effort. More to the point, though, the effects on the cycle have ranged from "good value" to "obviously pushed" so I am intrigued by the possibility of having a new option if it is anywhere in the 2-7 mana range. Our as-yet unknown legend will probably be spoiled sometime tomorrow, so I plan to be on the lookout for it.
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW