WATCHER FOR TOMORROW IS EXACTLY THE 2 DROP WE NEEDED! This is very much a card we will be running but i think it would be a replacement for our Spreading Seas if anything. (we already run a package of 4 GQ/FoR so seas for me was always just a 2cmc slot filler so we would be on curve. its land disruption was very minor and at best I saw it as a "1U: Draw a card")
Im very much excited for this card as i feel it was a long time coming!
(on a side note when MTG salvation shuts down were we movin to? Id love to keep discussing this deck with you guys and gals)
EDIT: On that note (of moving) might i suggest we make a subreddit for the deck? Not sure if The Fluff would like to make one as they made this thread originally.
Watcher For Tomorrow will definitely be tested alongside Soulherder. I agree that Watcher can replace the Spreading Seas. As for SH, I’m not sure where I want to try slotting it. Bottom line, it goes an effect that makes our deck go off to gain more advantage- it’s a winmore/shift the odds in our balance card. If this comes down before a Flickerwisp, you’re looking at a 4/4 the next turn that’s only going to grow. The combos you can pull off are impressive to say the least but it isn’t evasive, which stinks. Still, perhaps a one or two of in the right deck?
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Did some minor testings today. Only an hour as it's hard to test with just proxies.
Builds with watcher for tomorrow want to have 3-4 flickerwisps to blink it, so we can get the card that watcher searched quicker. And probably few to no vesperlark, as the lark cannot return the watcher. Digging 4 cards deep is a powerful effect, and I plan to make further tests on a build with a playset of these and no hussars.
Decks with vesperlark want wall of omens and hussar, since those are the two creatures lark returns. Blade Splicer variants might want the lark, as the lark returns the splicer as well.
And about the soulherder.. this guy is good when we have a board presence. It's a poor blocker, and also a terrible topdeck on an empty board. Feels like a win-more card, but further testings might prove me wrong. Definitely not more than one or two in the deck.
________________________________________________________
I feel this is a mistake... Hussar is a much better topdeck to use as a late game filter if in a pinch (tbh hussar is literally the best card in our deck rite after Emeria. Watcher for tomorrow is the best 2cmc we could get to stay on curve but when it comes to 3 cmc hussar is the last thing id suggest cuttingt.)
I didn't consider Vesperlark With Blade Splicer that's some nifty 2 for 1 shenanigans. That said though, I don't think lark is really all too great as our list is kinda tight as is. I'm thinking you either build an Emeria shell/strat specifically around a set of 4 larks or don't use lark at all.
Id like to try Soulherder as a singleton replacement for our one of Phantasmal image (which is also a win-more card that produces a similar effect as herder if copying anything that's not a titan) but even then that slot could be used for something else.
yeah, I know hussar is a great card. It's just test, never said it's a permanent replacement. They do similar things, so the cut would be the hussar. No Vesperlarks in my watcher build either. With hussar gone, the deck can breathe a little easier as the 3 cmc slot is not so crowded anymore.
Hussar
pros
- gives the card right away
- can block as a long as it is cast with W
- 3 toughness
cons
- cost 3
- only 1 power
- only digs 3 cards deep
- automatically dies when blinked
Watcher
pros
- only 2 cmc
- digs 4 cards deep
- does not automatically die when blinked or returned with emeria
- 2 power, makes the deck more aggressive
cons
- does not give the card right away, needs to be blinked, exiled, or killed
- cannot block the turn it comes into play
- only one toughness
You could add a pro to watcher that it has Pseudo unblockable (kinda)
Though its a 2/1 its hideaway is an unknown to the opponent making them more hesitant to ping, attack into, or block Watcher knowing that KO'ing him nets you one of 4 cards you hand picked to need more.
EDIT:
Also some hussar pros:
-Can block (and attack into) a thalia
-Viligance
-Dies when blinked (i found to be an upside sometimes )
-Is blue
-Rides a horse
-carries a cool banner...
-Etc.
You got me trying to brainstorm a deck around lark. The idea being that we can generate value with it and anything else we have in the yard. Just having lark and herder on the field would fetch us back anything we want (and as an added bonus i also realized lark can hit herder to enable the synergy easier.)
hmm, yes lark and herder together will keep producing value as long as there's an etb creature present with them. An opponent would most likely to kill them to stop the value train. Anyway, once titan hits the board.. titan could return herder and the value train starts up again even if emeria is not active.
I see your list is already fine. There are 13 creatures there that the lark could return. How about playtesting the list with your friend? To see what adjustments are needed.
________________
about splash black. I remember a few years ago in the thread before this one was created, someone was splashing black for duress and executioner's capsule. Personally, I won't splash a third color at all as it makes the manabase clunky. However, others can test if it would work for them. From what I remember, although memories are a bit vague.. splashing black worked for the user who tried it.
What do you guys think?
I decided to cut the Wall of Omens cause right now i feel what this deck needs is a bit of pressure to end games quicker when getting to emeria is just too slow (like burn and tron and stuff like that). I also decided to put a copy of Hex Parasitecause i feel it can deal with many troublesome planewsalkers (not Karn though) and hardened Scales as a bonus. And the fact that it's fetched by Ranger-Captain of Eos makes it even better. For the same reason i decided to try one Giver of Runes, just for some protection on the end game for titan.
I'm not really sold on vesperlarkcause it's a leave ability that just doesn't seem that impactful but i'm always open to suggestions from you guys :b
Since you've been debating a lot the card Vesperlark, I've tried to search for some creatures with "enter the battlefield" effect that could be abused with the elemental's "return to the battlefield" clause, and happened to glimpse Deputy of Detention. Despite it beign a creature, therefore much easier to remove than the enchantment Detention Sphere, wouldn't the vedalken wizard be a better choice for the deck throughout the game due to the fact that he could attack while still holding some troublesome "2/X"s at bay?
By the way, as Starstorm mentioned above, Hex Parasite seems like a good choice as a singleton to deal with planeswalkers and Hardened Scales.
Also, what are your thoughts on the GW version of this deck? I feel like Vesperlark could cause a real mess here, since it could be paired with: Sakura-Tribe Elder, allowing Emeria, the Sky Ruin to be "online" much earlier; Satyr Wayfinder, who could serve as a toned-down Grisly Salvage, which seems to be really efficient for this deck; and maybe even Harmonic Sliver for repeatable artifact/enchantment destruction (albeit Knight of Autumn, even standing at 2/1, is multi-purposed and better overall).
Anyway, hope I tossed some ideais around and didn't make a fool of myself with this wall of text!
Why Champion of Wits? Im genuinely curious, It seems like a worse hussar since we don't use anything that would pump it higher than its base 2/2. It seems good if you have cards in hand but it pains me when i think about drawing this if I'm stuck top decking...
I'm interested to try it out though (since i really liked the aesthetic of the whole Amonkhet block) so i picked up a playset in paper. Any tips/tricks/pointers you could give?
I first put champion to fight control, as a late game engine that can't be countered. So that was the main reason to have one. Over time I decided to put a second one for 2 reasons : first, I'm trying to put creatures with more power to end games more quickly (namely burn and Tron which have an inevitability that we don't. The second reason is that it is basically one of the best cards in modern right now on a body (faithless looting). With this I not only have card selection but feed the graveyard for a later titan or emeria. I still think court hussar is a great card and the clear better top deck, therefore decided to go with a split of both, one more for late game in the grave, another for top decks. I won many games thanks to champion of wits coming back from the grave when we were in top deck mode so I think it's a worthy card to consider.
About any more general tips I really don't know how to help but if you have any question lingering I'm happy to do my best in trying to answer them!
Going to extensively test a playset of Watcher for Tomorrow and one Soulherder.
Will have to wait a little longer over here though, SCG will send me the cards on June 14.
My way-too-early assessments:
I’ve played with 4x Watcher for Tomorrow and 2x Soulherder. My thoughts on the cards went against what I originally expected. Watcher has been good to dig through the deck but I almost feel pressured to kill him quickly to get the card I really need. Especially if I’m playing against no opposing creatures it’s awkward trying to get my card back. Also, not going to lie, it really sucks that he comes in tapped. He synergizes well with Flickerwisp though, which is cool. It is nice to wrath the board and have an answer in hand, especially if you Flickerwisp before and get a 2 for 1 effect. I’m hoping that my feelings towards him grow stronger, but we’ll see. As for Soulherder, anytime I play him, it’s been unreal. You absolutely need it in play with another creature, as we’ve discussed and topdecking it likely feels awful. However, I’ve played him and gotten immediate value, growing him while drawing cards/flickering/life gain shenanigans and it resulted in instant kills by my opponent. They’ve immediately used their ace in the hole removal, be it wrath or targeted spell, that would have otherwise messed with my gameplan bc they immediately understood that they couldn’t deal with it after one trigger. As stated before this is waaaaay too early but my thoughts so far...
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my playtest partner is a Grixis Shadow player, and our games usually grind out into top deck battles. One of the worst top decks on an empty board is a flickerwisp, and I would assume herder being only a 1/1 is an even worse topdeck than a 3/1 flyer. However, one advantage of the herder is that he blinks a creature every turn compared to the wisp that only blinks a creature once. Right now, I'm on a 2-1 split of 2 wisp one herder.. might increase the number of herder if it proves good in testing.
@The Fluff
Yeah in the heavy removal and discard based matches it's usually best to remove all copies of Flickerwisp because it's a terrible topdeck upon an empty board and those matches usually devolve into who topdecks better which is usually in the our favor.
Hey there everybody, this threads been a lot more active lately it's great! Fincown here, it's been some time and I'm sorry for not being on lately but for some reason I can't access my account. I've reset the password multiple times but then I try to log in and it doesn't work.
Anyway Modern Horizon's, wow we got a lot of new toys to play with! In addition to Watcher for Tomorrow I've been particularly excited about Winds of Abandon and Ranger-Captain of Eos because they solve so many fundamental issues for the mono white archetype. That build needed a additional card draw to function properly and access to a strong two mana removal spell that is neither restrictive or detrimental like Declaration in Stone and Blessed Alliance.
Winds of Abandon and Ranger-Captain of Eos have really over preformed. The Hollow One and Izzet Phoenix matchups in particular seem to be much better.
Winds of Abandon has been a cheap effective removal spell early that also plays around hexproof or graveyard shenanigans by being a one sided wrath that exiles.
Ranger-Captain of Eos can be a time-walk in the right matches if sacrificed upon upkeep. He also just comes down and grabs a Thraben Inspector which then draws a another card and chump blocks to gain life. One thing I love is that the captain sacrifices itself so you can resolve your Sun Titan or if you grab Kami of False Hope, with Sun Titan / Emeria, the Sky Ruin your opponent can't cast non-creature spells or deal combat damage.
Also of note, I think Ranger-Captain of Eos can be four for one, comes down grabs a Thraben Inspector he essentially drew a card, then [c]Thraben Inspector[c] is a seperate body and draws a card. If your opponent spends individual removal for both the inspector and the ranger they spend two cards dealing with your one card that effectively drew two more cards. Also the captain can sac itself to useful ability upon being targeted so maybe a four and a half for one?
About the new cards.. yeah, we have a lot of testing to do.
the card I'm interested in right now is soulherder. A fragile 1/1 that dies to a stiff breeze.. it also obviously cannot block without dying for some turns. However, the payoff of getting a free blink each turn can be a huge card advantage for us. What I will test is if it can be made huge fast.. many of our spells exile.. path, sphere, wisp, settle. Oh, and for example when we use Settle the wreckage to exile 3 attacking creatures.. soulherder get's three counters.
and I do agree, the ranger looks a good inclusion for mono W lists.
Im very much excited for this card as i feel it was a long time coming!
(on a side note when MTG salvation shuts down were we movin to? Id love to keep discussing this deck with you guys and gals)
EDIT: On that note (of moving) might i suggest we make a subreddit for the deck? Not sure if The Fluff would like to make one as they made this thread originally.
oh, and there is a wall of blossoms reprint for GW versions of the deck.
_______________________________
For migrating, sorry I don't have reddit.
However, I do plan to continue the thread on the new forum that the mods of this site are currently making.
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UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
Builds with watcher for tomorrow want to have 3-4 flickerwisps to blink it, so we can get the card that watcher searched quicker. And probably few to no vesperlark, as the lark cannot return the watcher. Digging 4 cards deep is a powerful effect, and I plan to make further tests on a build with a playset of these and no hussars.
Decks with vesperlark want wall of omens and hussar, since those are the two creatures lark returns. Blade Splicer variants might want the lark, as the lark returns the splicer as well.
And about the soulherder.. this guy is good when we have a board presence. It's a poor blocker, and also a terrible topdeck on an empty board. Feels like a win-more card, but further testings might prove me wrong. Definitely not more than one or two in the deck.
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________________________________________________________
I feel this is a mistake... Hussar is a much better topdeck to use as a late game filter if in a pinch (tbh hussar is literally the best card in our deck rite after Emeria. Watcher for tomorrow is the best 2cmc we could get to stay on curve but when it comes to 3 cmc hussar is the last thing id suggest cuttingt.)
I didn't consider Vesperlark With Blade Splicer that's some nifty 2 for 1 shenanigans. That said though, I don't think lark is really all too great as our list is kinda tight as is. I'm thinking you either build an Emeria shell/strat specifically around a set of 4 larks or don't use lark at all.
Id like to try Soulherder as a singleton replacement for our one of Phantasmal image (which is also a win-more card that produces a similar effect as herder if copying anything that's not a titan) but even then that slot could be used for something else.
Hussar
pros
- gives the card right away
- can block as a long as it is cast with W
- 3 toughness
cons
- cost 3
- only 1 power
- only digs 3 cards deep
- automatically dies when blinked
Watcher
pros
- only 2 cmc
- digs 4 cards deep
- does not automatically die when blinked or returned with emeria
- 2 power, makes the deck more aggressive
cons
- does not give the card right away, needs to be blinked, exiled, or killed
- cannot block the turn it comes into play
- only one toughness
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Though its a 2/1 its hideaway is an unknown to the opponent making them more hesitant to ping, attack into, or block Watcher knowing that KO'ing him nets you one of 4 cards you hand picked to need more.
EDIT:
Also some hussar pros:
-Can block (and attack into) a thalia
-Viligance
-Dies when blinked (i found to be an upside sometimes )
-Is blue
-Rides a horse
-carries a cool banner...
-Etc.
However, we tend to blink things with wisp early to mid-game.. and watcher is still on our board after blinking with wisp.
well, further testings would see which one is better.. already have 4 watcher in my SCG cart ready for pre-order.
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any ideas?
2x Blade Splicer
2x Court Hussar
3x Flickerwisp
2x Soulherder
2x Sun Titan
4x Vesperlark
4x Wall of Omens
2x Watcher for Tomorrow
1x Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
4x Path to Exile
1x Wrath of God
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Gideon of the Trials
4x Detention Sphere
5x Plains
4x Hallowed Fountain
3x Prairie Stream
4x Flooded Strand
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Field of Ruin
3x Emeria, The Sky Ruin
4x Dovin's Veto
Maybe
4x Deputy of detention
(I feel im missing the full 4 Wrath package but i need help balancing the cards.....)
Also i realize we could possibly splash B to run 1-2 Unearth As it does hit basically every creature that's not titan
I see your list is already fine. There are 13 creatures there that the lark could return. How about playtesting the list with your friend? To see what adjustments are needed.
________________
about splash black. I remember a few years ago in the thread before this one was created, someone was splashing black for duress and executioner's capsule. Personally, I won't splash a third color at all as it makes the manabase clunky. However, others can test if it would work for them. From what I remember, although memories are a bit vague.. splashing black worked for the user who tried it.
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3 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
2 Irrigated Farmland
1 Blast Zone
3 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
3 Hallowed Fountain
6 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
1 Island
Artifacts
1 Crucible of Worlds
Enchantments
3 Detention Sphere
Planeswalkers
2 Gideon of the Trials
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
Instants
4 Path to Exile
Creatures
2 Champion of Wits
2 Court Hussar
4 Lone Missionary
2 Soulherder
3 Sun Titan
1 Hex Parasite
2 Ranger-Captain of Eos
1 Giver of Runes
4 Watcher for Tomorrow
2 Damping Sphere
1 Detention Sphere
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Force of Negation
1 Kor Firewalker
3 Dovin's Veto
1 Settle the Wreckage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
What do you guys think?
I decided to cut the Wall of Omens cause right now i feel what this deck needs is a bit of pressure to end games quicker when getting to emeria is just too slow (like burn and tron and stuff like that). I also decided to put a copy of Hex Parasitecause i feel it can deal with many troublesome planewsalkers (not Karn though) and hardened Scales as a bonus. And the fact that it's fetched by Ranger-Captain of Eos makes it even better. For the same reason i decided to try one Giver of Runes, just for some protection on the end game for titan.
I'm not really sold on vesperlarkcause it's a leave ability that just doesn't seem that impactful but i'm always open to suggestions from you guys :b
Since you've been debating a lot the card Vesperlark, I've tried to search for some creatures with "enter the battlefield" effect that could be abused with the elemental's "return to the battlefield" clause, and happened to glimpse Deputy of Detention. Despite it beign a creature, therefore much easier to remove than the enchantment Detention Sphere, wouldn't the vedalken wizard be a better choice for the deck throughout the game due to the fact that he could attack while still holding some troublesome "2/X"s at bay?
By the way, as Starstorm mentioned above, Hex Parasite seems like a good choice as a singleton to deal with planeswalkers and Hardened Scales.
Also, what are your thoughts on the GW version of this deck? I feel like Vesperlark could cause a real mess here, since it could be paired with: Sakura-Tribe Elder, allowing Emeria, the Sky Ruin to be "online" much earlier; Satyr Wayfinder, who could serve as a toned-down Grisly Salvage, which seems to be really efficient for this deck; and maybe even Harmonic Sliver for repeatable artifact/enchantment destruction (albeit Knight of Autumn, even standing at 2/1, is multi-purposed and better overall).
Anyway, hope I tossed some ideais around and didn't make a fool of myself with this wall of text!
Why Champion of Wits? Im genuinely curious, It seems like a worse hussar since we don't use anything that would pump it higher than its base 2/2. It seems good if you have cards in hand but it pains me when i think about drawing this if I'm stuck top decking...
I'm interested to try it out though (since i really liked the aesthetic of the whole Amonkhet block) so i picked up a playset in paper. Any tips/tricks/pointers you could give?
I first put champion to fight control, as a late game engine that can't be countered. So that was the main reason to have one. Over time I decided to put a second one for 2 reasons : first, I'm trying to put creatures with more power to end games more quickly (namely burn and Tron which have an inevitability that we don't. The second reason is that it is basically one of the best cards in modern right now on a body (faithless looting). With this I not only have card selection but feed the graveyard for a later titan or emeria. I still think court hussar is a great card and the clear better top deck, therefore decided to go with a split of both, one more for late game in the grave, another for top decks. I won many games thanks to champion of wits coming back from the grave when we were in top deck mode so I think it's a worthy card to consider.
About any more general tips I really don't know how to help but if you have any question lingering I'm happy to do my best in trying to answer them!
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
Will have to wait a little longer over here though, SCG will send me the cards on June 14.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I’ve played with 4x Watcher for Tomorrow and 2x Soulherder. My thoughts on the cards went against what I originally expected. Watcher has been good to dig through the deck but I almost feel pressured to kill him quickly to get the card I really need. Especially if I’m playing against no opposing creatures it’s awkward trying to get my card back. Also, not going to lie, it really sucks that he comes in tapped. He synergizes well with Flickerwisp though, which is cool. It is nice to wrath the board and have an answer in hand, especially if you Flickerwisp before and get a 2 for 1 effect. I’m hoping that my feelings towards him grow stronger, but we’ll see. As for Soulherder, anytime I play him, it’s been unreal. You absolutely need it in play with another creature, as we’ve discussed and topdecking it likely feels awful. However, I’ve played him and gotten immediate value, growing him while drawing cards/flickering/life gain shenanigans and it resulted in instant kills by my opponent. They’ve immediately used their ace in the hole removal, be it wrath or targeted spell, that would have otherwise messed with my gameplan bc they immediately understood that they couldn’t deal with it after one trigger. As stated before this is waaaaay too early but my thoughts so far...
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Yeah in the heavy removal and discard based matches it's usually best to remove all copies of Flickerwisp because it's a terrible topdeck upon an empty board and those matches usually devolve into who topdecks better which is usually in the our favor.
Hey there everybody, this threads been a lot more active lately it's great! Fincown here, it's been some time and I'm sorry for not being on lately but for some reason I can't access my account. I've reset the password multiple times but then I try to log in and it doesn't work.
Anyway Modern Horizon's, wow we got a lot of new toys to play with! In addition to Watcher for Tomorrow I've been particularly excited about Winds of Abandon and Ranger-Captain of Eos because they solve so many fundamental issues for the mono white archetype. That build needed a additional card draw to function properly and access to a strong two mana removal spell that is neither restrictive or detrimental like Declaration in Stone and Blessed Alliance.
Winds of Abandon and Ranger-Captain of Eos have really over preformed. The Hollow One and Izzet Phoenix matchups in particular seem to be much better.
Winds of Abandon has been a cheap effective removal spell early that also plays around hexproof or graveyard shenanigans by being a one sided wrath that exiles.
Ranger-Captain of Eos can be a time-walk in the right matches if sacrificed upon upkeep. He also just comes down and grabs a Thraben Inspector which then draws a another card and chump blocks to gain life. One thing I love is that the captain sacrifices itself so you can resolve your Sun Titan or if you grab Kami of False Hope, with Sun Titan / Emeria, the Sky Ruin your opponent can't cast non-creature spells or deal combat damage.
Here's the list
Maindeck: 60
Creature: 24
1 - Kami of False Hope
4 - Thraben Inspector
1 - Lone Missionary
3 - Selfless Spirit
4 - Wall of Omens
4 - Flickerwisp
4 - Ranger-Captain of Eos
3 - Sun Titan
Instant // Sorcery: 10
4 - Path to Exile
2 - Winds of Abandon
2 - Settle the Wreckage
2 - Wrath of God
Planeswalker: 1
1 - Gideon Jura
Artifact: 1
1 - Crucible of Worlds
Manabase: 24
1 - Arid Mesa
1 - Marsh Flats
1 - Windswept Heath
1 - Flooded Strand
3 - Emeria, the Sky Ruin
4 - Field of Ruin
1 - Ghost Quarter
1 - Blast Zone
11 - Plains
Sideboard: 15
1 - Kami of False Hope
1 - Remorseful Cleric
3 - Lone Missionary
2 - Damping Sphere
2 - Stony Silence
1 - Sorcerous Spyglass
3 - Gideon of the Trials
2 - Cleansing Nova
A couple things I've noticed about this deck, you can filter through your deck very well now probably matching pre- Watcher for Tomorrow emeria. Also your opponents run out of basics very quickly between Path to Exile, Winds of Abandon, and Settle the Wreckage your Field of Ruin and Ghost Quarter quickly become Wasteland.
Also of note, I think Ranger-Captain of Eos can be four for one, comes down grabs a Thraben Inspector he essentially drew a card, then [c]Thraben Inspector[c] is a seperate body and draws a card. If your opponent spends individual removal for both the inspector and the ranger they spend two cards dealing with your one card that effectively drew two more cards. Also the captain can sac itself to useful ability upon being targeted so maybe a four and a half for one?
I may decide to swap the second Kami of False Hope in the sideboard for a second Blast Zone to bring in when Ghost Quarter is bad. I also may just cut Settle the Wreckage for a third and fourth Winds of Abandon.
About the new cards.. yeah, we have a lot of testing to do.
the card I'm interested in right now is soulherder. A fragile 1/1 that dies to a stiff breeze.. it also obviously cannot block without dying for some turns. However, the payoff of getting a free blink each turn can be a huge card advantage for us. What I will test is if it can be made huge fast.. many of our spells exile.. path, sphere, wisp, settle. Oh, and for example when we use Settle the wreckage to exile 3 attacking creatures.. soulherder get's three counters.
and I do agree, the ranger looks a good inclusion for mono W lists.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread