Well to tone it down a bit, magic is a high variance game one way or another. You can play 30 islands in a monoblue build and still lose to mana screw. Playing a 3 field of ruin jeskai build will make you lose MORE games to that. Playing straight UW or maybe a jeskai list with no FoR will give you fewer mana screws but you lose percentage elsewhere, like vs humans and burn with UW and va tron with FoRless jeskai. Choose your poison, basically
My comment was purely in jest. Magic is definitely a game of variance, and the fundamental question is "how greedy do you want to be?"
I am a very conservative player, and so I value consistency over power. A deck that skimps on lands definitely gains things elsewhere, and when that deck draws just the right number of lands/coloured sources, you feel like a genius. Flooding more than usual feels terrible, and is certainly a risk for playing a more conservative manabase.
Cody_X has been posting here for a long time, and is one of the posters that I know always has something of value to share. I am simply less daring in my deck construction than they are.
Regardless of other factors, I do believe it is possible to move Dredge, Hollow One and things like BridgeVine into solid positive territory for Jeskai simply by moving to Terminus. It also helps invalidate the common ways opponents will play around removal (e.g. Selfless Spirit, Thrun, Geist, Arcbound Ravager). Hollow One perhaps was even post board without Terminus already, but the other 2 were definately bad.
I have found that Opt does not noticeably affect my mana development except for single land single opt hands. In fact opt sometimes has advantages over Serum Visions when you miss a land drop, as a main-phase Opt can find you a land to play NOW.
Running high numbers of FoR is a seperate issue to ruining Terminus and affects different match-ups. FoR has an application in almost every match up though, so I feel the benefits of running For very much outweigh the negatives on the mana base.
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
Snapcaster mage has always had the allure of a 2-for-1 that Mission Briefing does not provide. But Mission Briefing DOES provide the toolbox aspect of Snapcaster - perhaps it's even better than snap at providing a toolbox, due to Surveil. So I get the hype there. And while I think that Jeskai is less interested in it than UW, we thought the opposite of Teferi when it was released, and now both decks recognise it's value.
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
Not sure if you folks saw this, but I quite like the list.
looks like there is some evidence to support the build. the guy who top8 GP hong kong literally played brian demar's list (he said as much). also it showed up in the top8 of the mtgo weekly challenge.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
The best way to describe it is it's sort of a Delver of Secrets that you control flipping. You get to hold up cheap permission to protect it and if they tap out or low enough, you can pump and protect it, etc. It does some damage, dies, and then you burn them out.
I'm sorry but your argument for Opt vs SV makes very little sense. In the gamestates where you would be hoping for a Terminus off of Opt you'd be hoping for it with SV just as well. And for the sake of setting up a Miracle Terminus, Opt sees just as deep as SV as SV's draw does not let you Miracle. Opt gives you many, many more shots at a Miracle Terminus than SV does and any list that runs Terminus should start with 4 Opt and then think really hard about running Peek vs SV for any potential cantrip 5-8 (and I'd probably pick Peek).
It makes some sense if all you're interested in is reliably setting up a Terminus instead of hoping to get lucky to use a miracle Terminus. I personally think if you're going to play UW Miracles, you just want all the Opt you can get, but I have seen issues with Opt in the deck as well.
It makes some sense if all you're interested in is reliably setting up a Terminus instead of hoping to get lucky to use a miracle Terminus. I personally think if you're going to play UW Miracles, you just want all the Opt you can get, but I have seen issues with Opt in the deck as well.
But SV and Opt set up Terminus with the exact same odds, AND Opt gives you an extra draw to trigger. Opt is basically twice as likely to trigger Miracle compared to SV. And SV forces you to make arbitrary guesses on whether you want to Terminus next turn or another turn later. Instead you just hold onto Opt until you need to spike a Terminus and plan ahead with what is in your hand instead of what is theoretically in your opponent's hand and what they are theoretically willing to play into Terminus
I think you're only looking at it from the perspective of wanting to use a miracle Terminus upon immediately casting. Otherwise, I don't understand how you mean it when you say "set up Terminus with the exact same odds." That can't be true. I'm saying what if you want to set it up for later? You absolutely cannot do that with Opt.
That's what I am saying, what situation are you imagining where you want to Terminus 2 turns later? Do you know what they are willing to play into your Wraths, what they have in hand right now and, even better, what they will draw in the next two turns? Floating a Terminus with JtMS or Top worked in Legacy because you have instant access to it. What are the odds that you cast Serum Visions, see a Terminus in the top 2, and decide you want it exactly 2 draws from now? The value in "setting up" a Terminus with SV are minor. Meanwhile, Opt gives you twice the amount of shots at the Miracle trigger.
SV sees two cards that are relevant for the Miracle trigger, as the first draw can't trigger it. Opt also sees two as you cast it on your opponent's turn, AND can trigger it a combat step earlier
Oh. I don't care about 2 turns later. The point is getting see more cards. Opt only allows you to see one card as far as making a choice. Serum Visions let's you see one more. It's just more information. If all you care about is finding Terminus, clearly Opt is better.
I'm not saying UW Miracles should be playing Serum Visions at all. I personally find the deck not to my tastes. It always seems way too focused on getting Jace down.
I think the anti-Serum Visions people (while they make valid points) seem to ignore the digging power of SV, both in the context of finding a Terminus ASAP and just in general. While drawing the Terminus off Serum Visions undoubtedly sucks, Visions digs you potentially 3 cards deep towards whatever you're looking for. I'm not advocating for running Serum over Opt in UW; rather, I suggest you run both to maximize the consistency and power of your draws.
In Jeskai Miracles, I don't think Opt is quite the glue that holds the deck together like Visions was prior to our experimentation with Terminus. Opt simply lacks digging power when you're casting it to set up for future turns. As I've said before, I think the mana is too ambitious to justify the added power over the loss of consistency vs UW. 4x Field of Ruin is a huge boon to UW that can't be overstated.
Beyond this all, the more I play with UW, the less I feel the need to run red. Red spells are good because they're removal that doubles as a wincon, but in the Jeskai lists that play ~5 planeswalkers and 2 SfA, do you really need burn to close out the game? In these lists, the burn spells are much more removal spells than they are anything else, and you're already packing 4 Terminus and 4 Path for this purpose. Suddenly, the red splash seems a lot less appealing.
UW certainly has some shortcomings, such as a lack of good spot removal options. It also does, however, have access to some decent tools to mitigate this weakness: Oust, Timely Reinforcements, and Vendilion Clique are all maindeckable cards that "fill in the holes" so-to-speak. Your mana is nearly painless. At the end of the day, even the matchups where the red spells make the greatest difference, like against Burn, the UW deck still comes out close to even.
My problem with UW is always a time consideration at tournaments that run 4+ rounds. If I have to completely give up the possibility of ever getting a break, then I'm not going to be a happy camper. I like looking up at the clock and realizing I have time to finish a match I otherwise may as well sign the match slip on.
I think the anti-Serum Visions people (while they make valid points) seem to ignore the digging power of SV
Read my posts
both in the context of finding a Terminus ASAP
]
Opt finds Terminus quicker as you can Miracle off it and don't have to wait untl your draw step
and just in general.
Obviously yes, but Terminus is the entire reason UWx is tier 1 now. With SV just play normal wraths
While drawing the Terminus off Serum Visions undoubtedly sucks, Visions digs you potentially 3 cards deep towards whatever you're looking for.
Again, general filtering aside, Opt digs just as deep to Miracle Terminus.
I'm not advocating for running Serum over Opt in UW; rather, I suggest you run both to maximize the consistency and power of your draws.
You can't fit 8 cantrips in UWx, there's only so much you can durdle when humans is beating you to a pulp. And even when considering a 5th or 6th cantrip, I'd choose an instant one to maximize Miracle odds because that is what makes UWx good now. I;m pretty sure everyone can grasp that SV generally digs deeper than Opt given that 3 is bigger than 2 and all, but the argument was about setting up Terminus
I feel like you made it an argument concerning solely a miracle Terminus. The one you're responding to was saying that s/he ended up having to cast spells to hopefully get lucky for such a thing way too often. S/He prefered Serum Visions for other reasons (more keepable opening hands and digging power).
Thank you chaos021, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Scrying 2 cards to the bottom is pretty powerful, and most games come down to whether or not you find what you're looking for on time. There's a reason all of the successful UWx decks prior to the Miracles phenomenon played 4x Visions (and notably not Opt). People also seem to ignore that you can Serum Visions to set up a Terminus, and then Opt to cast it on the opponent's turn. Cantrips are some of the most difficult cards to evaluate because their impact on a given game is nearly impossible to accurately determine.
I share your concern over going to time almost every round, and it's easily my least favourite thing about the deck (especially considering how common the mirror is these days). I'm trying 2x Clique main in an attempt to mitigate this factor.
I think UW Miracles can afford to spin its wheels more than most decks, purely because spiking a timely Terminus is such a huge payoff. I'm of the opinion that 6-8 cantrips is the way to go, and I'm partial to playing Visions over the other non-Opt cantrips, though Hieroglyphic Illumination is certainly interesting and worthy of testing.
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I am a very conservative player, and so I value consistency over power. A deck that skimps on lands definitely gains things elsewhere, and when that deck draws just the right number of lands/coloured sources, you feel like a genius. Flooding more than usual feels terrible, and is certainly a risk for playing a more conservative manabase.
Cody_X has been posting here for a long time, and is one of the posters that I know always has something of value to share. I am simply less daring in my deck construction than they are.
I have found that Opt does not noticeably affect my mana development except for single land single opt hands. In fact opt sometimes has advantages over Serum Visions when you miss a land drop, as a main-phase Opt can find you a land to play NOW.
Running high numbers of FoR is a seperate issue to ruining Terminus and affects different match-ups. FoR has an application in almost every match up though, so I feel the benefits of running For very much outweigh the negatives on the mana base.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
looks like there is some evidence to support the build. the guy who top8 GP hong kong literally played brian demar's list (he said as much). also it showed up in the top8 of the mtgo weekly challenge.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Planeswalker (2)
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Creature (17)
3 Figure of Destiny
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Spell Queller
1 Restoration Angel
Instant (18)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Opt
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
3 Lightning Helix
2 Mana Leak
Land (23)
4 Arid Mesa
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Inspiring Vantage
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Spirebluff Canal
1 Steam Vents
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Dispel
1 Wear // Tear
1 Celestial Purge
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Anger of the Gods
And Karl Oscars list from stocklholm
Planeswalker (2)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Creature (12)
1 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Spell Queller
3 Vendilion Clique
Instant (22)
3 Cryptic Command
1 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
1 Mana Leak
4 Opt
3 Path to Exile
2 Remand
1 Spell Snare
Land (24)
1 Arid Mesa
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dispel
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Lyra Dawnbringer
1 Negate
1 Rest in Peace
1 Settle the Wreckage
2 Stony Silence
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Wear // Tear
Super interesting choices here
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
UW Control
UWR Geist
UWR Control
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
UW Control
UWR Geist
UWR Control
But SV and Opt set up Terminus with the exact same odds, AND Opt gives you an extra draw to trigger. Opt is basically twice as likely to trigger Miracle compared to SV. And SV forces you to make arbitrary guesses on whether you want to Terminus next turn or another turn later. Instead you just hold onto Opt until you need to spike a Terminus and plan ahead with what is in your hand instead of what is theoretically in your opponent's hand and what they are theoretically willing to play into Terminus
SV sees two cards that are relevant for the Miracle trigger, as the first draw can't trigger it. Opt also sees two as you cast it on your opponent's turn, AND can trigger it a combat step earlier
I'm not saying UW Miracles should be playing Serum Visions at all. I personally find the deck not to my tastes. It always seems way too focused on getting Jace down.
In Jeskai Miracles, I don't think Opt is quite the glue that holds the deck together like Visions was prior to our experimentation with Terminus. Opt simply lacks digging power when you're casting it to set up for future turns. As I've said before, I think the mana is too ambitious to justify the added power over the loss of consistency vs UW. 4x Field of Ruin is a huge boon to UW that can't be overstated.
Beyond this all, the more I play with UW, the less I feel the need to run red. Red spells are good because they're removal that doubles as a wincon, but in the Jeskai lists that play ~5 planeswalkers and 2 SfA, do you really need burn to close out the game? In these lists, the burn spells are much more removal spells than they are anything else, and you're already packing 4 Terminus and 4 Path for this purpose. Suddenly, the red splash seems a lot less appealing.
UW certainly has some shortcomings, such as a lack of good spot removal options. It also does, however, have access to some decent tools to mitigate this weakness: Oust, Timely Reinforcements, and Vendilion Clique are all maindeckable cards that "fill in the holes" so-to-speak. Your mana is nearly painless. At the end of the day, even the matchups where the red spells make the greatest difference, like against Burn, the UW deck still comes out close to even.
My vote goes to UW.
Read my posts
]
Opt finds Terminus quicker as you can Miracle off it and don't have to wait untl your draw step
Obviously yes, but Terminus is the entire reason UWx is tier 1 now. With SV just play normal wraths
Again, general filtering aside, Opt digs just as deep to Miracle Terminus.
You can't fit 8 cantrips in UWx, there's only so much you can durdle when humans is beating you to a pulp. And even when considering a 5th or 6th cantrip, I'd choose an instant one to maximize Miracle odds because that is what makes UWx good now. I;m pretty sure everyone can grasp that SV generally digs deeper than Opt given that 3 is bigger than 2 and all, but the argument was about setting up Terminus
I share your concern over going to time almost every round, and it's easily my least favourite thing about the deck (especially considering how common the mirror is these days). I'm trying 2x Clique main in an attempt to mitigate this factor.
I think UW Miracles can afford to spin its wheels more than most decks, purely because spiking a timely Terminus is such a huge payoff. I'm of the opinion that 6-8 cantrips is the way to go, and I'm partial to playing Visions over the other non-Opt cantrips, though Hieroglyphic Illumination is certainly interesting and worthy of testing.