@Bearscape - Meta analysis of tiers is mostly useful for analysing which decks you are likely to face at top tables in tournaments. So even though I'm not 'obsessed with tiering, it's a relevant analysis.
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
aw man i thought you were talking about Chandra, Flamecaller. card is lit. like the aggro version of elspeth
torch of defiance is a powerful card in its own right, so i see no issue having it in lists as a bit of spice. i just dont think there is a solid case for the card ever being more uniformly adopted by jeskai lists, much like elspeth6 - which is outright one of the best things to be doing at that mana cost.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I have to agree. Although I like seeing unique sideboards, a lot of the cards seem to work poorly with each other - I have to assume he would board Chandra in against control mirrors but he would probably also board in sphinx's revelation, which is bad because you don't want to be exiling spells like that off the top of your library
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UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
The last few pages have been mostly about how Jeskai is positioned instead of how to position it better, which I always find incredibly pointless. Arbitrary claims about "X matchup is 45/55 unfavoured" mean absolutely nothing especially since WotC is hiding all the MTGO data from us.
Draw Go and Control are going to be the same thing. SCG and Wizards keep lumping both the Temp and Draw Go into 'Jeskai Control' on their listings, but its wrong.
Tempo is the list with Geist, and especially Spell Queller, and often enough Clique in the Main, running less or no Verdicts.
Draw Go or 'Big Jeskai' or UWR Control, are the decks which are running few win conditions, and normally walkers and Secure the Wastes, instead of Quellers and Geists. Bearscapes list is a pretty good example of the Draw Go/Control version, meanwhile if you see a list with 4 Quellers, thats going to be your Tempo build.
thank you so much. I didnt know about the control and draw go variants were the same. Interesting how names are different really does bring some confusion.
On another note I have been thinking that the sideboard should be built with an emphasis on tough match ups such as Gtron, Dredge and blood moon decks.
I have been seeing alot of free win red decks recently and they are very annoying with their early moons. I find blood moon especially annoying for jeskai. So this is what my sideboard looks like. I run a 22 land geist list its pretty standard apart form the mb disallow and steel of the godhead.
but my sideboard is directed for tough match ups with some answers to other decks.
1x Anger of the gods
1x supreme verdict
1x detention sphere
1x engineered explosives
These help vs dredge and i think anger is better vs more defensive or passive dredge hate like relic. Bc a late relic imo is useless. Detention sphere has come in clutch for me when i get all their amalgams or blood ghasts it does work if you get it out. I can see the reasoning behind RIP and Relic but like i said if those come in after the fact youre done for. This suite of sweepers also helps vs GW company, and token strategies such as mardu pyro or BW tokens(which isnt the easiest matchup)
against tron (Etron, Gtron)
2x ceremonious rejection
1x disdainful stroke
1x negate
1x by force
ceremonious rejection is such a good card vs tron given they dont have chalice which is why i use by force. Cavern of souls is a card i absolutely hate when playing vs tron as its really not cool at all having TKS come down uncounterable. Negate for planeswalkers and i have found disallow to be a great card vs G-trons Ostone when they are trying to deal with my geist and quellers. Dstroke for fatties obviously. I used to board in 3 spreading seas but they dont help as much as much late game and can lead to your downfall if you draw into it too late imo.
Vs bloodmoon decks (mainly free win red)
2x spell pierce
1x negate
1x celestial purge
1x EE
Blood moon is seriously THE most annoying card to play against for me atm. An early blood moon is basically GG if i dont have the answer. My method is to not crack fetches as long as possible. But the fact stands that blood moon just does too much work vs this deck. EE comes in vs free win red to blow up the chalices since ill be on 1-2 mana spells bc the blood moon restricts too much.
since i keep most removal after sideboarding i like the spell pierce for when they tap out for BBE and cascade into some bs like lili or kolaghans.
EE helps vs goyfs that come in though kolaghans is a problem i know. Thundermaw and elspeth is some top end for the deck which i find they cant deal with very well unless of course they thoughtseize it but thoughtseize is thoughtseize amirite? I want to try detention sphere vs jund/abzan but im not sure how it will do.
and for decks like burn, affinity, bogles, etc i find that
a mixture of spell pierce, negate, timely reinforcements, Dsphere is just fine. Bogles isnt TOO much trouble i just side out all the paths and put in negate, spell pierce, detention sphere and EE.
I need your help please ! I continuosly lose against jund. It just grinds me out of gas and litteraly every card he plays is a hurt. Also, I noticed that the first BBE is usually managable, the second one kind of hurts, the third one is just backbreaking.
I wanted to ask if there is some kind of "to-do-list" for the matchup, as I'm new to UWR (not to draw-go btw) and I always feel like I'm playing poorly almost every game against jund.
I decided to include 1 sphinx's rev and 4 AV because I wanted to have more raw CA power. I can say it generally works, but **** not against jund. I really don't know what I play wrong in that matchup.
Any tip/suggestion (on the decklist too) is really appreciated thank you!
If you have 4 Ancestral Vision and 1 Sphinx's Revelation, you literally shouldn't have issues beating anything in Jund colors (except Dredge). I'm with Bearscape. Let us know what cards you're bringing from the sideboard and what you're cutting from the main deck.
So, I'm not sure why I had never tried it before, but Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is a house. Dropped against an open board, you turn the corner instantly, and just clean house.
The 3/3 split on Bolt/Helix has been decent, and the Rev back in the main. All feels pretty good.
Since not many blue control decks are playing 3-4 ancestrals, then this should clue you on to the fact that this is a meta game card. So play it if there are a lot of rock decks, blue control and lantern decks.
This sideboard plan seems off by a lot. Cutting Verdict? I bring in my Verdicts vs Jund! Cutting Electrolyze? Pretty crazy IMHO. It's one of the best cards vs Jund! Cutting Jace? Just...no. And Snappy should almost never be cut, let alone in any grindy MU! The only "good cut" you make is Logic Knot IMHO.
Among the cards you bring in, at least two strike me as bad moves as well: Vendilion Clique and the second Rest in Peace (I dislike bringing in RiP against Jund in general, but I can accept exactly one copy. Two I consider to be wrong for sure). Negate is also pretty meh.
Sorry I'm not trying to be harsh but I really think changing your plan will help you a lot, and find especially some of the choices really surprising, although it's certainly not the first time I see people boarding in ways I personally consider completely wrong against BGx.
I'll second this.
From the cards you list as bringing in for Jund I would agree with only Keranos, Purge, and EE.
All Verdicts, Snaps, Jaces should stay.
RiP and Clique are liabilities. I mean Clique is almost never terrible but this is not the MU
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
Brian Braun Duin to Shaheen Soorani:
"Jace isn't a control card
you have to play a deck that gets on board early
and then plays jace
jace is a midrange card" Shaheen didn't take these words lightly, but is he right?
He's more right than wrong.
Jace can be played in control, but he does have limitations.
In general, modern is too creature-centric to be able to just expect to plop jace on the empty board and brainstorm til the cows come home.
Playing creatures and being able to play to the board with jace, both to defend him, and also to win the game with the cards you find off his brainstorm is potentially the best thing you can be doing.
If you want to be playing jace in control, things like supreme verdict (not just a bunch of spot removal), 5 mana gideon, etc, that play to the board much more, are important.
On that note, I think nahiri + jace might actually be a thing. Nahiri threatens a fast win, and also provides some much needed board control. In theory, she compliments jace quite well, and the best case scenario of having both of them in play can really put the opponent in a bind.
That being said, I mean playing ~3 nahiris and an emrakul, not just the single nahiri + gearhulk some lists have played. Being able to rely on nahiri as a wincon, and actually win with her is important here.
This is my initial take, but I've yet to play it, so its still pretty rough.
That being said, it does actually seem pretty appealing.
I can't speak for everyone, but I played a lot of nahiri when it was popular, and I did very, very well with it. The meta changed and it fell out of favor, but I was very impressed with the deck when I was playing it, and I'd love to go back to it, if I can make it work.
I also think that a bant or sultai shell with jace will likely end up being the best jace deck, and they will skew more midrange. Esper might take the crown, but green is pretty good with jace.
I hope a midrange BUG/RUG/Bant thing comes around, just because those are not Modern archetypes you see much at all.
I too played a lot of Nahiri, was the card that pulled me into UWR after Twin died actually, but I grew dissatisfied with the Tempo flavour at the time. I'm curious why Grixis isnt seeing more play and what is so hostile to it in the meta because I dont see a lot of chatter about it anywhere.
I've spent many years playing cryptic command in modern, and nothing makes you dislike that card more than playing with it.
As I mentioned, this is kind of just a first draft, and its heavily based on the nahiri decks I (and others) played way back when. Mana leak and ancestral visions are a lot better along side nahiri, but maybe knot and sfa are better here. I don't know.
I've said this a lot, but generally if big mana and combo are your worries, jeskai isn't going to be well positioned much at all, no matter the shell. Its just how it goes. Playing any of these creatures mainboard is probably not feasible (we're devoting a lot of deck space to the nahiri + emrakul already). In the board they might make sense, they might not.
Also just a nitpick, but nahiri is by definition a proactive card. You get more proactive, and less reactive, by playing nahiri over cryptic.
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------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Im not sure if this list has been discussed but he included both chandra and elspeth in the board I thought that that was pretty interesting.
Chandra won him the game vs Eldrazi and Taxes it was pretty good. just thought id post it so ppl can see the list.
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
torch of defiance is a powerful card in its own right, so i see no issue having it in lists as a bit of spice. i just dont think there is a solid case for the card ever being more uniformly adopted by jeskai lists, much like elspeth6 - which is outright one of the best things to be doing at that mana cost.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I have to agree. Although I like seeing unique sideboards, a lot of the cards seem to work poorly with each other - I have to assume he would board Chandra in against control mirrors but he would probably also board in sphinx's revelation, which is bad because you don't want to be exiling spells like that off the top of your library
@micarc, how do you side vs jund?
Jeskai draw-go
Jeskai tempo
Jeskai control
I cant find a clear answer for this was wondering if someone could explain the specific differences
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
Tempo is the list with Geist, and especially Spell Queller, and often enough Clique in the Main, running less or no Verdicts.
Draw Go or 'Big Jeskai' or UWR Control, are the decks which are running few win conditions, and normally walkers and Secure the Wastes, instead of Quellers and Geists. Bearscapes list is a pretty good example of the Draw Go/Control version, meanwhile if you see a list with 4 Quellers, thats going to be your Tempo build.
Spirits
On another note I have been thinking that the sideboard should be built with an emphasis on tough match ups such as Gtron, Dredge and blood moon decks.
I have been seeing alot of free win red decks recently and they are very annoying with their early moons. I find blood moon especially annoying for jeskai. So this is what my sideboard looks like. I run a 22 land geist list its pretty standard apart form the mb disallow and steel of the godhead.
but my sideboard is directed for tough match ups with some answers to other decks.
so my sideboard consists of
1x Anger of the Gods
1x By Force
1x Celestial Purge
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Detention Sphere
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Negate
2x Spell Pierce
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Thundermaw Hellkite
1x Timely Reinforcements
I use
1x Anger of the gods
1x supreme verdict
1x detention sphere
1x engineered explosives
These help vs dredge and i think anger is better vs more defensive or passive dredge hate like relic. Bc a late relic imo is useless. Detention sphere has come in clutch for me when i get all their amalgams or blood ghasts it does work if you get it out. I can see the reasoning behind RIP and Relic but like i said if those come in after the fact youre done for. This suite of sweepers also helps vs GW company, and token strategies such as mardu pyro or BW tokens(which isnt the easiest matchup)
against tron (Etron, Gtron)
2x ceremonious rejection
1x disdainful stroke
1x negate
1x by force
ceremonious rejection is such a good card vs tron given they dont have chalice which is why i use by force. Cavern of souls is a card i absolutely hate when playing vs tron as its really not cool at all having TKS come down uncounterable. Negate for planeswalkers and i have found disallow to be a great card vs G-trons Ostone when they are trying to deal with my geist and quellers. Dstroke for fatties obviously. I used to board in 3 spreading seas but they dont help as much as much late game and can lead to your downfall if you draw into it too late imo.
Vs bloodmoon decks (mainly free win red)
2x spell pierce
1x negate
1x celestial purge
1x EE
Blood moon is seriously THE most annoying card to play against for me atm. An early blood moon is basically GG if i dont have the answer. My method is to not crack fetches as long as possible. But the fact stands that blood moon just does too much work vs this deck. EE comes in vs free win red to blow up the chalices since ill be on 1-2 mana spells bc the blood moon restricts too much.
vs jund/abzan
1x thundermaw hellkite
1x elspeth,suns champion
1x EE
2x spell pierce
since i keep most removal after sideboarding i like the spell pierce for when they tap out for BBE and cascade into some bs like lili or kolaghans.
EE helps vs goyfs that come in though kolaghans is a problem i know. Thundermaw and elspeth is some top end for the deck which i find they cant deal with very well unless of course they thoughtseize it but thoughtseize is thoughtseize amirite? I want to try detention sphere vs jund/abzan but im not sure how it will do.
and for decks like burn, affinity, bogles, etc i find that
a mixture of spell pierce, negate, timely reinforcements, Dsphere is just fine. Bogles isnt TOO much trouble i just side out all the paths and put in negate, spell pierce, detention sphere and EE.
Heres my list for reference
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/03-01-18-jeskai-control/?cb=1521397049
Its a bit unconventional but it has been working for me so im happy with it. Any advice is appreciated. Thank you
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
How has the sideboard 2x Counterflux been for you? I've been testing with it, but haven't sleeved it up yet.
Derp Counterflux, not Countersquall.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
If you have 4 Ancestral Vision and 1 Sphinx's Revelation, you literally shouldn't have issues beating anything in Jund colors (except Dredge). I'm with Bearscape. Let us know what cards you're bringing from the sideboard and what you're cutting from the main deck.
The 3/3 split on Bolt/Helix has been decent, and the Rev back in the main. All feels pretty good.
Spirits
Cut cards for two more lands if you're not playing serum visions.
yep, completely agree. everything else aside, that HAS to be the first order of business.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I'll second this.
From the cards you list as bringing in for Jund I would agree with only Keranos, Purge, and EE.
All Verdicts, Snaps, Jaces should stay.
RiP and Clique are liabilities. I mean Clique is almost never terrible but this is not the MU
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
"Jace isn't a control card
you have to play a deck that gets on board early
and then plays jace
jace is a midrange card"
Shaheen didn't take these words lightly, but is he right?
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Jace can be played in control, but he does have limitations.
In general, modern is too creature-centric to be able to just expect to plop jace on the empty board and brainstorm til the cows come home.
Playing creatures and being able to play to the board with jace, both to defend him, and also to win the game with the cards you find off his brainstorm is potentially the best thing you can be doing.
If you want to be playing jace in control, things like supreme verdict (not just a bunch of spot removal), 5 mana gideon, etc, that play to the board much more, are important.
On that note, I think nahiri + jace might actually be a thing. Nahiri threatens a fast win, and also provides some much needed board control. In theory, she compliments jace quite well, and the best case scenario of having both of them in play can really put the opponent in a bind.
That being said, I mean playing ~3 nahiris and an emrakul, not just the single nahiri + gearhulk some lists have played. Being able to rely on nahiri as a wincon, and actually win with her is important here.
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
4 Remand
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Kher Keep
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Timely Reinforcements
4 Serum Visions
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Supreme Verdict
This is my initial take, but I've yet to play it, so its still pretty rough.
That being said, it does actually seem pretty appealing.
I can't speak for everyone, but I played a lot of nahiri when it was popular, and I did very, very well with it. The meta changed and it fell out of favor, but I was very impressed with the deck when I was playing it, and I'd love to go back to it, if I can make it work.
I also think that a bant or sultai shell with jace will likely end up being the best jace deck, and they will skew more midrange. Esper might take the crown, but green is pretty good with jace.
I too played a lot of Nahiri, was the card that pulled me into UWR after Twin died actually, but I grew dissatisfied with the Tempo flavour at the time. I'm curious why Grixis isnt seeing more play and what is so hostile to it in the meta because I dont see a lot of chatter about it anywhere.
Spirits
As I mentioned, this is kind of just a first draft, and its heavily based on the nahiri decks I (and others) played way back when. Mana leak and ancestral visions are a lot better along side nahiri, but maybe knot and sfa are better here. I don't know.
I've said this a lot, but generally if big mana and combo are your worries, jeskai isn't going to be well positioned much at all, no matter the shell. Its just how it goes. Playing any of these creatures mainboard is probably not feasible (we're devoting a lot of deck space to the nahiri + emrakul already). In the board they might make sense, they might not.
Also just a nitpick, but nahiri is by definition a proactive card. You get more proactive, and less reactive, by playing nahiri over cryptic.