It will always be better to just pick a strategy and commit to it.
Playing 1 jace and 2 quellers, 1 wrath and 25 lands, etc, doesn't make sense.
Either play big jeskai, cutting the quellers for another wrath and reconfigure your spells a bit, or play the tempo/queller deck, and play 2 more quellers, maybe some geists or cliques, etc, instead of jaces, SFA, the wrath, some of the counterspells, etc.
Dylan Donegan is suggesting this tempo version with 2 Jace and Blade Splicer/Restoration Angel now instead of geist, arguing these creatures are better against jund:
...I want the card to have hex proof, flash or both...
This is old tech but some of us tried Archangel Avacyn when SOI released and it wasn't actually bad at all, almost like a 4th colonnade and it can chump block or kill an attacker, also it evades push and bolt and the transform ability is relevant.
Okay.. I have played a ton of magic over the past several weeks between FNMs and the Starcity tournament.. and from what I've seen, I think the correct jeskai list right now is big jeskai with 3 supreme verdict mainboard, 3 cryptic, 2 jace, etc...
I tried the geist list and I think he is definitely good in the sideboard as a 2x of because he wins some matches straight up; however against a lot of the ponza land destruction and eldrazi tron, you want to just win the long game by countermagic
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
-jace is not a particularly impressive game 1 card. main deck configurations are typically proactive. jace isnt great when playing from behind
-i want to maximize my chances of winning game 1. having a 3/4 evasive beater lets me close out games quicker, and is better against creature aggression; while also potentially providing value with its blink. EOT flash into colonnade activation -> swing can flip racing math into your favor.
-other decks improve more post-board than we do. we dedicate a good portion of sideboard to counterspells, which are versatile but lower impact. not to mention they are flat out bad if you are behind.
-sideboard games slow down because people board in reactive cards. jace is better in attrition.
-4 mana 3/4 flyer is resistant to a lot of removal, and it profitably blocks against other creatures. flamewake phoenix, mantis rider, prized amalgam, queller, finks, bbe, matter reshaper, treetop village, etc.
-the artwork is cool
basically im treating the 1-of resto as a spell.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Spell Pierce is really good right now, I've been running it since the bannings. I hardly ever draw the Mana Leak but wanted to shave a logic knot to vary my suite. I highly recommend Settle in the main. I also like having at least 1 opt as a snap target in matchups where I'm digging instead of racing. The rest I think is self-explanatory. Trying Resto out against midrange especially Jund, but it doesn't feel great though. Perhaps a 3rd Search in the board when I know it's critical and expect discard/Abrupt decay. Possibly Dire-fleet too.
For the record, I haven't lost to Jace with this deck yet. Jund on the other hand is really tough.
Spell Pierce is really good right now, I've been running it since the bannings. I hardly ever draw the Mana Leak but wanted to shave a logic knot to vary my suite. I highly recommend Settle in the main. I also like having at least 1 opt as a snap target in matchups where I'm digging instead of racing. The rest I think is self-explanatory. Trying Resto out against midrange especially Jund, but it doesn't feel great though. Perhaps a 3rd Search in the board when I know it's critical and expect discard/Abrupt decay. Possibly Dire-fleet too.
For the record, I haven't lost to Jace with this deck yet. Jund on the other hand is really tough.
you are leaning pretty heavily on those cryptic commands. adding another azcanta somewhere in the list might help, but remember that black/red midrange decks always sideboard 3-4 fulminator mages in post board games - so you cant expect azcanta to stick around for that long.
if i had to guess your issue is that you are too threat light. you are a control deck sure, but if you take too long to turn the corner eventually something is going to slip through. especially against jund, if you play the draw go game with them without presenting anything that they care about then they will stockpile discard as you cant control their drawstep/hand. once they punch a hole you find yourself in a situation where its your snap + cryptic loops versus their bbe + k-command loops. they have more threats, so without any significant source of raw card advantage (something like sphinxs rev), they will eventually run you dry.
i think an easy way to improve is to just move to the big jeskai decklists prior to the jace unban. inclusions such as sphinxs rev, gideon AoZ, or even nahiri with a gearhulk.
elspeth 6 is a house against them, so maybe move that main deck. maybe a keranos. hell even just casting something like wurmcoil.
if you are looking for slots i would look at cutting one or two of the bolts/helix.
jund got a powerup with the unban, so if you want to go toe to toe with them you gotta up the power too. dont let these jund players clobber you with their bags of money, keep fighting the good fight.
edit: oh yea i guess you could run jace, but i figured you werent for some other reason.
edit2: one thing ive noticed about the jund matchup is that a lot of it revolves around path to exile. they are a very precious resource, and using one on something you could have otherwise bolted makes their goyfs and ravines much more threatening. dont ever let that ravine get the first counter.
nothing particularly stands out. lists are pretty close to what we have been talking about here with just slotting in a couple of jaces into what we were doing before.
davis went with sphinxs rev instead of secure the wastes. but he is known for durdling so that isnt surprising.
gideon aoz in the sideboard of both lists. just confirming that it is a strong option right now.
edit: also apparently jim davis scooped to jadine klomparens (jund) after she forgot to put a counter on her scavenging ooze going into a lethal swing. so it was definitely a close one.
Yeah both he and Jadine missed the trigger, resulting in a scrubbed out game that Jadine should have won. I also saw him (Jim) get screwed by his 3 collonades, and get smashed via Fulminators in the 2nd game with Jadine if I remember right.
A queller list made top 8 in the SCG classic with one planeswalker in the main, and it's not jace hehe but a Gideon AoZ. One jace in the sideboard. Looks like jace is falling in favor.
It's more BRx than BGx like Jund and Mardu that we have trouble with. And I don't particularly agree with "The unbans didn't change the dynamic a whole lot". BBE into a 3-drop like a Liliana, Lingering Souls, Tireless Tracker, K-Command, Pulse, or even a 2-drops like Goyf or Dark Confidant are hard to deal with for us where we rely a lot on 2-for-1's. It's hard to maintain a card advantage against these decks, especially when they strip our hand away with discards and pressure us with efficient threats. Yes, we have the better top-end, but it's very hard for Jeskai to go to the late game with card advantage against these decks.
I do have to say though that the new Resto build has been quite good against all these BR/BRx/BGx decks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks
Modern
Mono U-Tron U
Jeskai Control UWR
EDH
Ezuri, Renegade Leader UG
Tasigur, the Golden Fang UGB
I agree with you that BBE doesn't mean that Jund can consistently outgrind Jeskai. However, I disagree that this means it didn't really do anything. BBE is both a very strong grindy card and a very strong tempo card. Jace is an even stronger grindy card, but a very weak tempo card most of the time, and especially vs. BBE. In my experience, Jund's wins vs. big control come from not falling too far behind in card advantage while winning on tempo, so BBE is IMO considerably higher impact in the MU than Jace is.
I don't know if I'd say BBE is enough to turn the matchup, but I think "Meh we get Jace w/e" is too dismissive of the impact Bloodbraid has on the matchup.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I've always struggled to understand how some people perceive the BGx MUs as negative MUs for Jeskai. BGx is one of the archetypes I'm always happy to be paired against. Of course, you can't always win, that's part of the game. But the odds are in our favor.
The unbans didn't change the dynamic a whole lot. They got Bloodbraid, we got Jace. And regardless of Jace, Bloodbraid is not as good as Snap-Cryptic or Search for Azcanta when it comes to grinding. I actually think Lingering Souls might be worse to deal with for us than Bloodbraid Elf, simply because recently we cut back on Electrolyze (at least, I did, and most lists seem to be playing 0-2 Electrolyze, which is less than 4 Lingering Souls).
I mean our top end is better than theirs, so they need to rely on Fulminator Mage and discard spells to hope we don't get to cast those cards they usually just can't beat (planeswalkers, Search for Azcanta, Secure the Wastes etc). That's not a position I'd like to be in, I'd always want to be the Jeskai pilot in a Jeskai-Jund game. And us untapping with 4 mana and triple blue is usually bad enough for them, Cryptic counter-draw, Snap-Cryptic counter draw, and they're out of the game. Bolt is not very good vs us, so the fact they now play less Pushes and Terminates and more Bolts is better for our Colonnades, and better for us in general.
I think the MU was in our favor before the unbans, and it is pretty much the same now.
the thing is that the matchup has always floated around the 50/50 region, with us slightly favored going into the lategame. now its closer to even more than ever before.
jeskai has historically had very few sources of just raw card draw, maybe playing a single sphinx's rev or incorporating more mopey options like think twice. our advantage in card economy was tied almost exclusively to snap, colonnade, electrolyze, cryptic, and verdict.
azcanta was a nice boon for us, but its still legendary, has to flip, and requires continuous mana investment.
now look at jund and mardu. dark confidant, bedlam reveler, young pyromancer, liliana (both varieties), faithless looting discarding souls, collective brutality discarding lands, and manlands of their own.
if we dont draw correctly they can just straight up beat us in card advantage - be it real or virtual
now look at BBE. almost guaranteed to be worth AT LEAST two cards, with the cascade mechanic working in their favor in regards to counterspells.
snap + cryptic loops was our trump in these scenarios. you know what is just as good? k-command + bbe (or reveler) loops.
imagine this not unlikely sequence:
discard -> force your play on cryptic -> k-command forcing discard and getting back BBE -> cast BBE -> cascade into another k-command or liliana of the last hope -> get back another BBE.
you just got 5-for-1'd with protection in hand AND they have board presence
we cant stop them from drawing discard, so even if we are holding multiple counters they can bully us on mana efficiency. not to mention the draws where they just fulminator you out of the game
we have a lot of play in the matchup and can go toe to toe with them, but we definitely arent favored to any significant degree. sometimes we just go azcanta -> counter a play -> flip azcanta -> sweeper -> drop jace and its a KO, but they can just as easily go discard -> bob -> liliana -> discard + goyf -> BBE and its equally as bad for us.
the thing is that the matchup has always floated around the 50/50 region, with us slightly favored going into the lategame. now its closer to even more than ever before.
...
i actually think its a very fun matchup to play
Agreed. Both decks have received some new tools, and I think that BBE probably pushes it to be slightly unfavorable for Jeskai, but it's still a very winnable match. And more importantly, a very enjoyable match. If I could guarantee that 50% of my matches were against Jund rather than the flavor-of-the-month linear creature aggro or uninteractive ramp/combo, I'd play a lot more Modern.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy:UWR Miracles (MTGS Primer) || Modern:UWR Jeskai Control Commander:UBR Jeleva/Kess Storm, UR Mizzix Combo, U Rayne/Azami Wizards
An appallingly dull fellow, unimaginative, timid, lacking in initiative, spineless, easily dominated, no sense of humour, tedious company, and irrepressibly drab and awful.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Playing 1 jace and 2 quellers, 1 wrath and 25 lands, etc, doesn't make sense.
Either play big jeskai, cutting the quellers for another wrath and reconfigure your spells a bit, or play the tempo/queller deck, and play 2 more quellers, maybe some geists or cliques, etc, instead of jaces, SFA, the wrath, some of the counterspells, etc.
3 Blade Splicer
2 Restoration Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Spell Queller
1 Vendilion Clique
Instant/Sorceries(18)
3 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Logic Knot
4 Path to Exile
1 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Arid Mesa
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Rest in Peace
2 Runed Halo
2 Stony Silence
2 Celestial Purge
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dispel
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Supreme Verdict
His list looks similar to a list that 5-0'd the MTGO Competitive league recently:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/975331#paper
The idea of Splicer/Resto in modern jeskai is not new. Look up Shohei Mita's version that top8'ed GP Kobe some years back, also with 2 maindeck planeswalkers (Elspeth, Knight-Errant was the best option at that time)
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8053&d=246406&f=MO
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
This is old tech but some of us tried Archangel Avacyn when SOI released and it wasn't actually bad at all, almost like a 4th colonnade and it can chump block or kill an attacker, also it evades push and bolt and the transform ability is relevant.
Spirits
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I tried the geist list and I think he is definitely good in the sideboard as a 2x of because he wins some matches straight up; however against a lot of the ponza land destruction and eldrazi tron, you want to just win the long game by countermagic
Spirits
2 Cryptic
2 Jace
2 Verdict
1 Gideon AoZ
1 Secure the Wastes
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
2 cryptic
2 verdict
1 clique
1 jace
1 gideon aoz
1 restoration angel
1 secure the wastes
2nd jace in sideboard
my reasoning:
-jace is not a particularly impressive game 1 card. main deck configurations are typically proactive. jace isnt great when playing from behind
-i want to maximize my chances of winning game 1. having a 3/4 evasive beater lets me close out games quicker, and is better against creature aggression; while also potentially providing value with its blink. EOT flash into colonnade activation -> swing can flip racing math into your favor.
-other decks improve more post-board than we do. we dedicate a good portion of sideboard to counterspells, which are versatile but lower impact. not to mention they are flat out bad if you are behind.
-sideboard games slow down because people board in reactive cards. jace is better in attrition.
-4 mana 3/4 flyer is resistant to a lot of removal, and it profitably blocks against other creatures. flamewake phoenix, mantis rider, prized amalgam, queller, finks, bbe, matter reshaper, treetop village, etc.
-the artwork is cool
basically im treating the 1-of resto as a spell.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)3 Celestial Colonnade
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
Creatures:
4 Snapcaster Mage
Spells:
4 Cryptic Command
1 Secure the Wastes
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Electrolyze
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Logic Knot
1 Mana Leak
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Serum Visions
2 Opt
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
2 Celestial Purge
1 Runed Halo
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Restoration Angel
1 Wrath of God
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear/Tear
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Counterflux
Spell Pierce is really good right now, I've been running it since the bannings. I hardly ever draw the Mana Leak but wanted to shave a logic knot to vary my suite. I highly recommend Settle in the main. I also like having at least 1 opt as a snap target in matchups where I'm digging instead of racing. The rest I think is self-explanatory. Trying Resto out against midrange especially Jund, but it doesn't feel great though. Perhaps a 3rd Search in the board when I know it's critical and expect discard/Abrupt decay. Possibly Dire-fleet too.
For the record, I haven't lost to Jace with this deck yet. Jund on the other hand is really tough.
you are leaning pretty heavily on those cryptic commands. adding another azcanta somewhere in the list might help, but remember that black/red midrange decks always sideboard 3-4 fulminator mages in post board games - so you cant expect azcanta to stick around for that long.
if i had to guess your issue is that you are too threat light. you are a control deck sure, but if you take too long to turn the corner eventually something is going to slip through. especially against jund, if you play the draw go game with them without presenting anything that they care about then they will stockpile discard as you cant control their drawstep/hand. once they punch a hole you find yourself in a situation where its your snap + cryptic loops versus their bbe + k-command loops. they have more threats, so without any significant source of raw card advantage (something like sphinxs rev), they will eventually run you dry.
i think an easy way to improve is to just move to the big jeskai decklists prior to the jace unban. inclusions such as sphinxs rev, gideon AoZ, or even nahiri with a gearhulk.
elspeth 6 is a house against them, so maybe move that main deck. maybe a keranos. hell even just casting something like wurmcoil.
if you are looking for slots i would look at cutting one or two of the bolts/helix.
jund got a powerup with the unban, so if you want to go toe to toe with them you gotta up the power too. dont let these jund players clobber you with their bags of money, keep fighting the good fight.
edit: oh yea i guess you could run jace, but i figured you werent for some other reason.
edit2: one thing ive noticed about the jund matchup is that a lot of it revolves around path to exile. they are a very precious resource, and using one on something you could have otherwise bolted makes their goyfs and ravines much more threatening. dont ever let that ravine get the first counter.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)both big jeskai shells:
jim davis 13th
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Logic Knot
1 Negate
3 Path to Exile
1 Spell Snare
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Serum Visions
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Celestial Purge
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Wear
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ancestral Vision
1 Anger of the Gods
victoria mccoy 27th
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Island
1 Plains
3 Celestial Colonnade
1 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Electrolyze
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Logic Knot
1 Negate
4 Path to Exile
1 Secure the Wastes
1 Spell Snare
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Serum Visions
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Runed Halo
1 Celestial Purge
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Counterflux
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Wear
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Terminus
nothing particularly stands out. lists are pretty close to what we have been talking about here with just slotting in a couple of jaces into what we were doing before.
davis went with sphinxs rev instead of secure the wastes. but he is known for durdling so that isnt surprising.
gideon aoz in the sideboard of both lists. just confirming that it is a strong option right now.
edit: also apparently jim davis scooped to jadine klomparens (jund) after she forgot to put a counter on her scavenging ooze going into a lethal swing. so it was definitely a close one.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Spirits
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
I do have to say though that the new Resto build has been quite good against all these BR/BRx/BGx decks.
Modern
Mono U-Tron U
Jeskai Control UWR
EDH
Ezuri, Renegade Leader UG
Tasigur, the Golden Fang UGB
I don't know if I'd say BBE is enough to turn the matchup, but I think "Meh we get Jace w/e" is too dismissive of the impact Bloodbraid has on the matchup.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
the thing is that the matchup has always floated around the 50/50 region, with us slightly favored going into the lategame. now its closer to even more than ever before.
jeskai has historically had very few sources of just raw card draw, maybe playing a single sphinx's rev or incorporating more mopey options like think twice. our advantage in card economy was tied almost exclusively to snap, colonnade, electrolyze, cryptic, and verdict.
azcanta was a nice boon for us, but its still legendary, has to flip, and requires continuous mana investment.
now look at jund and mardu. dark confidant, bedlam reveler, young pyromancer, liliana (both varieties), faithless looting discarding souls, collective brutality discarding lands, and manlands of their own.
if we dont draw correctly they can just straight up beat us in card advantage - be it real or virtual
now look at BBE. almost guaranteed to be worth AT LEAST two cards, with the cascade mechanic working in their favor in regards to counterspells.
snap + cryptic loops was our trump in these scenarios. you know what is just as good? k-command + bbe (or reveler) loops.
imagine this not unlikely sequence:
discard -> force your play on cryptic -> k-command forcing discard and getting back BBE -> cast BBE -> cascade into another k-command or liliana of the last hope -> get back another BBE.
you just got 5-for-1'd with protection in hand AND they have board presence
we cant stop them from drawing discard, so even if we are holding multiple counters they can bully us on mana efficiency. not to mention the draws where they just fulminator you out of the game
we have a lot of play in the matchup and can go toe to toe with them, but we definitely arent favored to any significant degree. sometimes we just go azcanta -> counter a play -> flip azcanta -> sweeper -> drop jace and its a KO, but they can just as easily go discard -> bob -> liliana -> discard + goyf -> BBE and its equally as bad for us.
i actually think its a very fun matchup to play
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Agreed. Both decks have received some new tools, and I think that BBE probably pushes it to be slightly unfavorable for Jeskai, but it's still a very winnable match. And more importantly, a very enjoyable match. If I could guarantee that 50% of my matches were against Jund rather than the flavor-of-the-month linear creature aggro or uninteractive ramp/combo, I'd play a lot more Modern.
Commander: UBR Jeleva/Kess Storm, UR Mizzix Combo, U Rayne/Azami Wizards
An appallingly dull fellow, unimaginative, timid, lacking in initiative, spineless, easily dominated, no sense of humour, tedious company, and irrepressibly drab and awful.