So overall I did pretty well. I went 4-5 with all losses going to game three's.. If anyone is interested in a detailed breakdown of my matches just let me know and I'd be happy to =)
But some overall thoughts after playing 9 long rounds and watching others play as well.
-- Gideon isn't suited well currently in the format. Often you are getting one 2/2 onto the field before he's removed and his emblem isn't anything game changing - I think moving forward I may be more interested in trying either Jace Architect of thought or like Gideon of the Trials..
-- Running 2x Geist of Saint Traft in the sideboard was the excellent strategy that won a lot of matches. I would side them in if we went to game three and by then they boarded out most (if not all) of their removal which made for aggro wins from left field. I played against Mardu in my final match and had him dead by turn 4 with a combination of burn and geist swinging.
-- I think running 3x Jace might be the number we are looking for. After playing a lot of matches with him on the field, he just blew my opponents away by card advantage and I think you want to be casting him every game. However from my match ups (this may not be entirely right) but I think casting him like turn 5/6 is the right play in a control matchup. Holding mana leak plus snare/or just cryptic on turn 4 is so much better..
--Regular tron is still horrible to go up against.. If anyone reads this far into the post, I'd love to hear input on how you handle the pairing. It seems like they run so much gas with playlets of karn/wurmcoil/ugin now that you just die.. lol
Overall, it was a fun day! Despite the amount of land destruction that took place..
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UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
So overall I did pretty well. I went 4-5 with all losses going to game three's.. If anyone is interested in a detailed breakdown of my matches just let me know and I'd be happy to =)
But some overall thoughts after playing 9 long rounds and watching others play as well.
-- Gideon isn't suited well currently in the format. Often you are getting one 2/2 onto the field before he's removed and his emblem isn't anything game changing - I think moving forward I may be more interested in trying either Jace Architect of thought or like Gideon of the Trials..
-- Running 2x Geist of Saint Traft in the sideboard was the excellent strategy that won a lot of matches. I would side them in if we went to game three and by then they boarded out most (if not all) of their removal which made for aggro wins from left field. I played against Mardu in my final match and had him dead by turn 4 with a combination of burn and geist swinging.
-- I think running 3x Jace might be the number we are looking for. After playing a lot of matches with him on the field, he just blew my opponents away by card advantage and I think you want to be casting him every game. However from my match ups (this may not be entirely right) but I think casting him like turn 5/6 is the right play in a control matchup. Holding mana leak plus snare/or just cryptic on turn 4 is so much better..
--Regular tron is still horrible to go up against.. If anyone reads this far into the post, I'd love to hear input on how you handle the pairing. It seems like they run so much gas with playlets of karn/wurmcoil/ugin now that you just die.. lol
Overall, it was a fun day! Despite the amount of land destruction that took place..
Hey thanks for the report! I do disagree with the Gideon assessment, though. He's been great for me.
Cody_X and I have given some opinions on the tron MU in the posts above. Basically if you want to avoid being a dog to Tron and still play UWR, play Geist and Clique main and put 2-3 Rejectio on your board (or Molten Rain if you so feel like it, although this is my less preferred choice), and then cross your fingers. Jeakai Tempo stands a chance against tron, but really, if you want to beat tron all the time, just don't play UWR.
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
Yeah Tron feels majorly hopeless at times. Even if I build out to 'beat tron' there is just nothing that we do, that they cannot handle so its better as Sunny says, to just put a bit more pressure in your main, and hope for the best with Rejections, though I do find if we can keep them off early, and we are able to get Search and/or Jace up, we stabilize fairly well?
Right up till they cast the Ulamog's and Worldbreakers, and such that is, those are the back breakers if you are trying to come from behind.
So overall I did pretty well. I went 4-5 with all losses going to game three's.. If anyone is interested in a detailed breakdown of my matches just let me know and I'd be happy to =)
But some overall thoughts after playing 9 long rounds and watching others play as well.
-- Gideon isn't suited well currently in the format. Often you are getting one 2/2 onto the field before he's removed and his emblem isn't anything game changing - I think moving forward I may be more interested in trying either Jace Architect of thought or like Gideon of the Trials..
-- Running 2x Geist of Saint Traft in the sideboard was the excellent strategy that won a lot of matches. I would side them in if we went to game three and by then they boarded out most (if not all) of their removal which made for aggro wins from left field. I played against Mardu in my final match and had him dead by turn 4 with a combination of burn and geist swinging.
-- I think running 3x Jace might be the number we are looking for. After playing a lot of matches with him on the field, he just blew my opponents away by card advantage and I think you want to be casting him every game. However from my match ups (this may not be entirely right) but I think casting him like turn 5/6 is the right play in a control matchup. Holding mana leak plus snare/or just cryptic on turn 4 is so much better..
--Regular tron is still horrible to go up against.. If anyone reads this far into the post, I'd love to hear input on how you handle the pairing. It seems like they run so much gas with playlets of karn/wurmcoil/ugin now that you just die.. lol
Overall, it was a fun day! Despite the amount of land destruction that took place..
thanks for letting us know how it went. i see that you decided to change up your list. not saying the choice was right or wrong, but i think there is merit to playing lists you are comfortable with.
gideon is hit or miss, and fits into what i would consider as a flex spot. he loses value if you arent playing secure the waste though.
it seems that people are settling around the 3 jace mark, but i dont think there is a way to tell if this is always correct. for me i like having 2 distinct planeswalkers in my list because it lets you achieve a boardstate where both are online. which is a unique form of advantage.
casting jace with protection is good of course. as for blue mirrors though the first person to tap out on their own turn is usually disadvantaged.
as for tron. you can improve the matchup if you want to by shuffling your sideboard around, but it still aint great. take risky and aggressive lines of play, including mulliganing decisions. a lot of the tron deck is air, and they dont have the inevitability like they used to with Eye of Ugin. if you can weather a couple of their threats they often run out of steam.
land destruction/disruption has been on the rise for a while now. im thinking about reconfiguring my mana going up to 6 basics (3 island, 2 plains, 1 mountain) and playing 2 field of ruin. getting cut off of double white can leave you with zero outs in a lot of situations.
ive been looking for unconventional methods of fixing our mana, but nothing stands out as being good enough. the majority of the fair decks right now see attacking our mana base as a viable strategy against us. so finding a solution might be worthwhile.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
As far as I've been able to tell, the solution to having our mana base attacked is to go UW.
Only semi-serious, of course. But it's an option to keep in mind if you want to shore up the mana base (and be able to hate out others' more easily) while sacrificing some points to hypreaggressive strategies.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
nah. i still think the power and versatility of keeping red around outweighs the risks.
still itd be nice to not fold to land hate sometimes.
could up the fetch count, or play ghost quarters to snag a basic in a pinch. looked through cheap artifacts or enchantments for mana fixing, but nothing appeals. maybe look to colorless threats/answers like batterskull, wurmcoil, or main deck EEs. or maybe revisit nahiri as a maindeck answer to bloodmoon.
i dont think retooling our spell base to minimize a third color is an option.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
still, you gotta acknowledge that condemn has downsides. it sees only fringe play for a reason.
the lifegain from helix and occasional opportunity to 2-for-1 with electrolyze really keeps your head above water when opponents are going all dr. dre on you.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
i agree. land hate is very unreliable against tron unless you dedicate serious sideboard slots to it.
ceremonious rejection is obviously the best option due to its cost, but just having various other counters you can load up on helps.
path is instrumental in the matchup. it lets you fight through wurms and ulamog (even with with the cast trigger).
even with all this though, at the end of the day you just have to take aggressive lines and hope they dont draw well. if they keep ripping threats off the top of their deck there isnt really much you can do.
i actually brought up Silence partially because of this matchup. we dont have inevitability in the matchup, which means tempo and aggression are our avenues to victory. pretty much everything tron does is at sorcery speed, so jamming them up on critical turns might be worthwhile.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Teferi is one of those canary cards. It shows up when there is a lot of blue around and you expect to have to face it often. I do agree fully that with some pressure, its better to just land our own threats and counter the few that they cast per turn. Attacking the land gets me nowhere.
a card i used to play against tron was Aven Mindcensor. me and birdman go way back.
i eventually cut him for more generic stuff though.
edit: lol i was looking over the lists from the most recent mtgo modern challenge. jahn still doing work with his bolt-less list. another guy at 6-2 playing a geist list is rockin 4 silences in the SB. dude stole my idea!
The Teferi idea is interesting. But it would compete with Secure the Wastes in my sb so it's kind of tough, 'cause I think when Teferi is good Secure is almost as good, while also having wayyy broader applications.
On the Tron MU, I disagree with the notion that Jeskai Tempo/Midrange/Geist HAS to be unfavored against Tron. I very much agree with what Harlan Firer has said about that. In short:
* Eldrazi Tron is bad, no question about it, something like 35-65 for Tempo/Midrange builds and 40-60 for control builds to give an idea;
* Old-style Tron is bad for control, but only slightly unfavorable for Tempo/Mid builds. This essentially means if you decide to sacrifice a few sideboard slots, you can tip the scale in your favor. How? Well, in two ways:
* We have access to two cards that can be pretty devastating for them: Ceremonious Rejection and Stony Silence;
* They play 10 to 15 threats; with the help of Snap and the fact we don't have to counter Wurmcoil (Path to Exile), we have a good chance of simply being able to counter everything they play if we board in a good amount of Ceremonious Rejections and other counterspells such as Negate, Disdainful Stroke and/or Counterflux;
Attacking them on their mana is hard for us and usually just doesn't work (they have too many cards that search lands). Attacking them on their threats is the right way to go. With a good number of counterspells, there's a good chance it works.
A decent clock thanks to additional creatures and burn spells does the rest for the Tempo/Mid version of our deck, that can end the game before they get to cast Ulamog and get the uncounterable trigger or they do things like recurring World Breakers. Or else that same decent clock allows us to put them in such a position where burn spells can finish them off right when they start doing these things we usually just can't beat in the long run.
Agreed with most of this, but I disagree with the land-denial angle in some circumstances.
For Big Control decks, going after their mana isn't a surefire way of beating Tron. There we agree. They'll just hit 6 or 8 or 10 lands and barrel you over. However, I've found success with land attack in two cases:
1) You're really committed to it. In my experience, UW can do it pretty well with 7-9 maindeckable speed bumps (Spreading Seas, Field of Ruin, and maybe an odd Ghost Quarter, or even a Crucible of Worlds if you're really a sick bastard). Up to 8 of these are card-advantage-neutral, and they're tempo-positive if you have enough to keep them off Tron for a few turns. This means you're usually clear to go shields down for a moment around turns 4-5 to deploy the Jace or Gideon that you need to win the game. Personally, I don't think Jeskai is a good deck for this angle of attack.
2) You present a clock. If you can be sure to take them off of a turn-3/turn-4 blowout, you can get a Geist on the table and start wreaking havoc. Buying yourself a turn or two of breathing space while they spin their wheels is a big deal when you also have them on a 3-turn clock. (You didn't cut all your bolts, right? ) Less so when you're just holding up Mana Leak or saving up for Big E. Note that Jace can fit the bill here too, if you think you can fade Karn or Ulamog until you untap. As an aside, UR Breach is a master of this one, with Blood Moon, Remand follow-up, and the ability to close out a game instantly (or at least put them so far behind they're effectively out).
But yes, generally, I agree that land denial is weak vs. Tron as Big Control. Although Grixis can do some messed-up ***** to them with Fulminator/K-Command/Snapcaster chains if they dodge the turn-3 blowout.
yeah i believe UR breach might be trons worst matchup. nothing else comes to mind. not even ponza. maybe infect?
yeah grixis lists are still running 3-4 field of ruin for whatever reason. add access to fulminator which has more versatility across multiple matchups than anything we have access to, and their tron matchup looks better than ours.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Has anyone tried Settle the Wreckage? I really like the idea of one sided wraths at instant speed.. Was thinking of going with those mainboard if trying to build a geist list soon
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UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
In the Geist build, Settle is the default sweeper in the board. I’ve tried some in the main but it didn’t feel good, with Geist you want to be more proactively removing your opponent’s threats so you can swing with Geist, meaning you only really want it in a few matchups. When you do want the sweeper though, it works well since it doesnt hit your creatures, the exile effecf often relevant, and I’ve found giving your opponent’s basics to be a neglible downside in most matchups. That being said, most opponents are starting to play around it, making it less effective at grabbing utilitu creature like Kitesail Marauder and Meddling Mage.
There’s also the question of what you cut for it. Between the cantrips, removal suite, creatures, and countermagic most lists are already tight for spots, and I’ve never found anything I’ve been happy cutting from my main.
Basically, it’s sometimes good, but it’s hard to find room for it.
My Sweeper split is 2 Verdict/1 Wrath. I suppose you could go 1/1 Verdict and Wrath in the Main, and Settle in the Side...that's where my 2 Geists are anyway, but it would depend on if Stubborn Denial is heavy in your meta?
I feel I'm getting pretty close now to a stable list, mostly Control, but with 2 Geist in the side and 1 Clique main for some pressure when we need it.
A one-sided exiling wrath comes at a cost, I'm not a fan of STW except for the Gearhulk synergy.
If you really want a wrath that lets Geist (and also Queller) live, try Dusk // Dawn, but honestly in most MUs where you side in wraths you side out geists and Verdict is still the best choice
i think the most important aspect of it is the exiling. having more exile effects could be important depending on whats going on. hell just loading up on whatever sweepers we can find might be warranted.
for instance if you havent played against these bant value/company decks with jace. the matchup is atrocious for us. voices, trackers, quellers, knights, and cliques. oh yeah and coco and jace. good luck tapping out for a verdict. not to mention if they run retreats they can combo you out.
well i better bring in some counters for coco and jace! against the creature deck...with voices...
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Is it maybe wrong to avoid RiP? There are so many decks (and yes ours) that lean on the GY, it feels like it should be in there. I was just ground out HARD by Jund, cycling through with K-Command and I feel if the GY was out of the picture I would have at least had a chance to 1 for 1 them until I got a Jace online...
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UW Spirits
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My deck was as followed:
4 Snapcaster Mage
Spells (32)
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
4 Serum visions
4 Path to Exile
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Mana Leak
2 Logic Knot
1 Spell Snare
1 Negate
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Steam Vents
2 Hollowed Fountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Plains
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Spirebluff Canals
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Detention Sphere
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wear//Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Dispel
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Celestial Purge
2 Runed Halo
1 Ventilions Clique
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
So overall I did pretty well. I went 4-5 with all losses going to game three's.. If anyone is interested in a detailed breakdown of my matches just let me know and I'd be happy to =)
But some overall thoughts after playing 9 long rounds and watching others play as well.
-- Gideon isn't suited well currently in the format. Often you are getting one 2/2 onto the field before he's removed and his emblem isn't anything game changing - I think moving forward I may be more interested in trying either Jace Architect of thought or like Gideon of the Trials..
-- Running 2x Geist of Saint Traft in the sideboard was the excellent strategy that won a lot of matches. I would side them in if we went to game three and by then they boarded out most (if not all) of their removal which made for aggro wins from left field. I played against Mardu in my final match and had him dead by turn 4 with a combination of burn and geist swinging.
-- I think running 3x Jace might be the number we are looking for. After playing a lot of matches with him on the field, he just blew my opponents away by card advantage and I think you want to be casting him every game. However from my match ups (this may not be entirely right) but I think casting him like turn 5/6 is the right play in a control matchup. Holding mana leak plus snare/or just cryptic on turn 4 is so much better..
--Regular tron is still horrible to go up against.. If anyone reads this far into the post, I'd love to hear input on how you handle the pairing. It seems like they run so much gas with playlets of karn/wurmcoil/ugin now that you just die.. lol
Overall, it was a fun day! Despite the amount of land destruction that took place..
Hey thanks for the report! I do disagree with the Gideon assessment, though. He's been great for me.
Cody_X and I have given some opinions on the tron MU in the posts above. Basically if you want to avoid being a dog to Tron and still play UWR, play Geist and Clique main and put 2-3 Rejectio on your board (or Molten Rain if you so feel like it, although this is my less preferred choice), and then cross your fingers. Jeakai Tempo stands a chance against tron, but really, if you want to beat tron all the time, just don't play UWR.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Right up till they cast the Ulamog's and Worldbreakers, and such that is, those are the back breakers if you are trying to come from behind.
Spirits
thanks for letting us know how it went. i see that you decided to change up your list. not saying the choice was right or wrong, but i think there is merit to playing lists you are comfortable with.
gideon is hit or miss, and fits into what i would consider as a flex spot. he loses value if you arent playing secure the waste though.
it seems that people are settling around the 3 jace mark, but i dont think there is a way to tell if this is always correct. for me i like having 2 distinct planeswalkers in my list because it lets you achieve a boardstate where both are online. which is a unique form of advantage.
casting jace with protection is good of course. as for blue mirrors though the first person to tap out on their own turn is usually disadvantaged.
as for tron. you can improve the matchup if you want to by shuffling your sideboard around, but it still aint great. take risky and aggressive lines of play, including mulliganing decisions. a lot of the tron deck is air, and they dont have the inevitability like they used to with Eye of Ugin. if you can weather a couple of their threats they often run out of steam.
land destruction/disruption has been on the rise for a while now. im thinking about reconfiguring my mana going up to 6 basics (3 island, 2 plains, 1 mountain) and playing 2 field of ruin. getting cut off of double white can leave you with zero outs in a lot of situations.
ive been looking for unconventional methods of fixing our mana, but nothing stands out as being good enough. the majority of the fair decks right now see attacking our mana base as a viable strategy against us. so finding a solution might be worthwhile.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Only semi-serious, of course. But it's an option to keep in mind if you want to shore up the mana base (and be able to hate out others' more easily) while sacrificing some points to hypreaggressive strategies.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
still itd be nice to not fold to land hate sometimes.
could up the fetch count, or play ghost quarters to snag a basic in a pinch. looked through cheap artifacts or enchantments for mana fixing, but nothing appeals. maybe look to colorless threats/answers like batterskull, wurmcoil, or main deck EEs. or maybe revisit nahiri as a maindeck answer to bloodmoon.
i dont think retooling our spell base to minimize a third color is an option.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)still, you gotta acknowledge that condemn has downsides. it sees only fringe play for a reason.
the lifegain from helix and occasional opportunity to 2-for-1 with electrolyze really keeps your head above water when opponents are going all dr. dre on you.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)probably one of the more well known 'trap' cards because it is straight up card disadvantage.
im thinking as a possible one-of with tempo applications for decks operating primarily at sorcery speed
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)ceremonious rejection is obviously the best option due to its cost, but just having various other counters you can load up on helps.
path is instrumental in the matchup. it lets you fight through wurms and ulamog (even with with the cast trigger).
even with all this though, at the end of the day you just have to take aggressive lines and hope they dont draw well. if they keep ripping threats off the top of their deck there isnt really much you can do.
i actually brought up Silence partially because of this matchup. we dont have inevitability in the matchup, which means tempo and aggression are our avenues to victory. pretty much everything tron does is at sorcery speed, so jamming them up on critical turns might be worthwhile.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Spirits
i eventually cut him for more generic stuff though.
edit: lol i was looking over the lists from the most recent mtgo modern challenge. jahn still doing work with his bolt-less list. another guy at 6-2 playing a geist list is rockin 4 silences in the SB. dude stole my idea!
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Agreed with most of this, but I disagree with the land-denial angle in some circumstances.
For Big Control decks, going after their mana isn't a surefire way of beating Tron. There we agree. They'll just hit 6 or 8 or 10 lands and barrel you over. However, I've found success with land attack in two cases:
1) You're really committed to it. In my experience, UW can do it pretty well with 7-9 maindeckable speed bumps (Spreading Seas, Field of Ruin, and maybe an odd Ghost Quarter, or even a Crucible of Worlds if you're really a sick bastard). Up to 8 of these are card-advantage-neutral, and they're tempo-positive if you have enough to keep them off Tron for a few turns. This means you're usually clear to go shields down for a moment around turns 4-5 to deploy the Jace or Gideon that you need to win the game. Personally, I don't think Jeskai is a good deck for this angle of attack.
2) You present a clock. If you can be sure to take them off of a turn-3/turn-4 blowout, you can get a Geist on the table and start wreaking havoc. Buying yourself a turn or two of breathing space while they spin their wheels is a big deal when you also have them on a 3-turn clock. (You didn't cut all your bolts, right?
But yes, generally, I agree that land denial is weak vs. Tron as Big Control. Although Grixis can do some messed-up ***** to them with Fulminator/K-Command/Snapcaster chains if they dodge the turn-3 blowout.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
yeah grixis lists are still running 3-4 field of ruin for whatever reason. add access to fulminator which has more versatility across multiple matchups than anything we have access to, and their tron matchup looks better than ours.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)There’s also the question of what you cut for it. Between the cantrips, removal suite, creatures, and countermagic most lists are already tight for spots, and I’ve never found anything I’ve been happy cutting from my main.
Basically, it’s sometimes good, but it’s hard to find room for it.
I feel I'm getting pretty close now to a stable list, mostly Control, but with 2 Geist in the side and 1 Clique main for some pressure when we need it.
Spirits
If you really want a wrath that lets Geist (and also Queller) live, try Dusk // Dawn, but honestly in most MUs where you side in wraths you side out geists and Verdict is still the best choice
for instance if you havent played against these bant value/company decks with jace. the matchup is atrocious for us. voices, trackers, quellers, knights, and cliques. oh yeah and coco and jace. good luck tapping out for a verdict. not to mention if they run retreats they can combo you out.
well i better bring in some counters for coco and jace! against the creature deck...with voices...
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Spirits