This is the spin I'm taking on Jace, I messed around with Queller for a bit I didn't like it much. It's quite interesting to see; prior to the unban everything was slowly cropping together in the midrange part of the spectrum, but now the curve has reversed and everything is either trying to be fast enough to beat jace, or trying to go long and beat jace (and nothing else, lol). If you really want to beat the Jace deck I think Grixis is now the prime canditate but if you also want to stand a chance against aggro Jeskai is still king.
Frankly 2 Jaces main is probably enough but I like to run 3 now for testing purposes and it helps in this slowdown armsrace. The side is a mess since the format is a mess, lol
Why not Entreat instead of Secure? You have 3 main deck Jace and a forth in the sideboard to set it up for a miracle. Also, why do you have 4 Colonnade instead of a glacial fortress? Have you run into any coming into play tapped with that many colonnades?
I love the Counterflux in the side, one of my favorite cards. I noticed last night (2 leagues) that Izzet Staticaster is great right now, but that could have just been what I faced. I also don't know what you would cut for it in your side, but it over preformed. It allowed me destroy affinity, goblins, lingering souls and young pyromancer last night.
I like the main deck Clique; I am going to have to find space in my list for that.
I don't think Cryptic is that great since everyone is boarding 2-3 Dispel now, and honestly this deck crushes BGx ("BBE counters JtMS", good one WotC). If you get a Jace online, playing multiple cheap spells a turn is also more powerful than getting to play one big one.
I really dislike Miracle cards, I do not think it is really viable in Modern. It very often happens that I StW for 2-4 tokens the first time, to save me some life with chumpblocks, or in response to a discard spell, or just EoT vs attrition to make use of my mana more efficiently. It's generally the second snapcastered StW that is meant to go for the kill. StW's power lies in its flexibility entirely and Entreat the Angels does not have this function
If mana was an issue I'd start with replacing a Field of Ruins before a Colonnade; it's the best manland in Modern and especially with all this attrition going on I'd probably play 5 if I was allowed to
I'm still inbetween Staticaster and Engineered Explosives in the side; reasoning for EE over it is that you cant Azcanta into Staticaster, and EE helps vs Lantern.
solid list Bearscape. finding the right mixture of counters is rough right now.
one thing id recommend is trying out Opt. either doing a split of Opt and visions, or just playing opt exclusively. not having to tap out in your mainphase for cantrips in the early turns makes it feel like you have a lot more mana.
as for Colonnades, i am actual of the opposite mindset and was thinking about cutting down to 2 for another untapped source in the early game. the games where colonnade becomes a factor are the grindy games, and we have jace for that now. ill probably end up sticking with 3, but i can't see myself ever playing the full 4 again.
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I agree on the EE vs Staticaster. I am running both right now with a Supreme Verdict so I am heavy on sweeper effects which is most likely wrong right now. I am still working on the side board. And that is fair with StW, I am running 2 verdicts main deck and then the heavy sweeper side which I think is why I am not using StW in the same way.
Cryptic also further competes for our 4 drops and I want 2 verdict right now so I am at 2 Jace, 3 Cryptic and 2 Verdict. I have had terrible luck with Jace. I have had 3 times where even just with the two I have drawn both in the first 2 turns... I know that is just really bad luck, but it has been super annoying.
On Colonnade/Field of Ruin. I have notice a ton of field of ruin right now, doesn't that lower the value of Colonnade or is the extra Colonnade count with the expectation of the extra field of ruins?
One further question, you went up to 4 Bolt main, but have an abrade in the side instead of Wear/Tear, how are you dealing with enchantments? I get that you have the EE, but is that enough?
I really don't know of any Enchantment I'd desperately want to kill. Do you expect to bring in W/T against Search for Azcanta as the only target?
Abrade is excellent against Vial decks which are quite common right now as well
Blood moon, Ghirapur aether Grid, bitterblossom, phyrexian unlife, whatever that blue untap thing in Knightfall is, detention sphere, tuned halo, whichever enchantment that is lethal t4 from boggles... the list is pretty extensive
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Just a question about the Geist lists. What is the singleton Mountain for? I just always wondered why?
A singleton mountain allows you an un-shocked fetch into bolt for burn / aggro MU's. It also insulates you somewhat against field of Ruin attempts to cut you off red.
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
I really don't know of any Enchantment I'd desperately want to kill. Do you expect to bring in W/T against Search for Azcanta as the only target?
Abrade is excellent against Vial decks which are quite common right now as well
Blood moon, Ghirapur aether Grid, bitterblossom, phyrexian unlife, whatever that blue untap thing in Knightfall is, detention sphere, tuned halo, whichever enchantment that is lethal t4 from boggles... the list is pretty extensive
Blood Moon is relevant, but I'd run a Purge if I really wanted to beat it as it can be played around quite easily. The other targets are all very fringe, and generally the only enchantment target in the lists that run them; I'd rather just rely on Engineered Explosives than bringing in such a narrow card vs those decks.
If I was allowed 20 sideboard cards I'd probably play a W/T but if I'm only allowed 15 then I'd rather have more applicable cards.
yeah if field of ruin and blood moon keep rising in popularity i might cut a colonnade (down to 2), and play a 9th fetch to see how that plays.
holding fetches up protects you from getting color screwed, works with jace, and helps flip azcanta.
/sigh
the more i keep tweaking my list the more i ask myself if im getting adequate returns from playing 3 colors (particularly jeskai). the only card that stands out is lightning helix.
hmmm. maybe i should add a few more flash creatures to increase the likelihood of doing chip damage, subsequently making our burn suite more relevant.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Ok so my first reaction to the unban was to declare my favorite deck, Jeskai Tempo, dead.
It doesn't look to make much sense playing such a deck when Jace will make control MUs worse (they were already bad for Jeskai Tempo after the printing of Search for Azcanta, a card Jeskai Tempo just can't really do much about) and especially Bloodbraid will turn an entire category of good MUs (BGx) into bad ones.
These things are indeed correct.
However, after having thought more about it and playtested a bit, I think I'd rather put it like this: it's not that Jeskai Tempo will die. It's mostly Spell Queller that is the big loser here. On the other hand, the pendulum is going back towards the other key creature...Geist of Saint Traft.
I think Jeskai Tempo will still be playable. Probably a worse choice compared to draw-go. But playable. It just needs to be re-thought a little bit.
So. 1x Field of Ruin. I don't think this deck can take more, but squeezing in at least one is important in a world of manlands and Azcantas. Queller is gone. I love Queller, it's just a great magic card that rewards skill and finesse. But for now, I'm not ready to sleeve it up anymore. It's mainly because of Jund. I think Bloodbraid Jund will be everywhere for some time and Queller is too much of a liability there, especially now that they play 4x Bolt. I think for this deck to be playable the Jund MU can't be negative. It can be even. But not negative. So it's time to play with my Geist again. Geist is a great plan against blue based control while also being decent vs Jund.
In the other spells departement, I've cut Electrolyze entirely. I think Lingering Souls is going down with Abzan and Mardu Pyromancer. While Electrolyze is a nice card vs Jund, Spell Snare is a better one, and clearly better vs the overall meta (blue based control decks increasing in numbers and Burn as well). So Snare replaces Electrolyze, especially since now I want to "go under" some decks. Then, since I'm only on 8x creatures, I've a couple flex slots. I've decided to use them for three singletons: Negate, Search for Azcanta and Secure the Wastes. I think having a 2 mana counterspell ready will be more important now, hence Negate (Logic Knot number 4). Search is simply too strong a card not to play it. Secure the Wastes is just a solid overall finisher that's never really bad.
Sideboard. Well, 2x Jace take the slots for grindy MUs, together with a big Elspeth. Jund is back, and so Elspeth is back. Third copy of Dispel, 'cause I want to win counter wars over Geist against control decks and go under them like that. Also, I think Burn will increase in numbers. The rest is cards I was playing prior to the unbans as well. Counterflux now more important than ever in a tempo build, as crazy as it seems, I'm even considering a third copy.
Just trying to keep the Tempo variations alive. I think Queller becomes less playable in this new era, but the strategy overall can survive with Geist.
I'm with you on all this, Geist will remain important but quellers stock will lower as more bolts and abrupt decays re-enter the format. And agree that 1x V-clique can still easily still slot into the main of either a Control or Geist shell. Though I do think 2x Field of Ruin in a 24 land deck may JUST be viable.
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I think we should bring back Keranos, God of Storms into the sideboard. It prevents fateseal against Jace decks, provide card advantage and hard to be removed by Jund decks.
What's your guys' thoughts on Electrolyze? I don't like it much and have cut down to only one in my deck. It just doesn't do enough. Yes it's great against small creatures and could come in handy against other Snapcaster Mages, but for 3 mana I think this card is fine to cut.
This brings up another topic I had on my mind. Besides the previous planeswalkers you had been using in this deck, what have you guys been cutting for Jace?
Electrolyze is strongly metagame dependent. With Humans and other X/1's running around, it is amazing. If you're not seeing those decks, it's usually the first card on the chopping block.
[quote from="chaos021 »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/tier-1-modern/728834-jeskai-control?comment=4453"]Electrolyze is strongly metagame dependent. With Humans and other X/1's running around, it is amazing. If you're not seeing those decks, it's usually the first card on the chopping block.
Not trying to be annyoing at all or to contradict you just for the sake of it, but, IMHO: Electrolyze NOT that good vs Humans. It's often too slow and clunky for the way their deck works (pump creatures, Vial activations in response that get them out of reach, Thalia, Freeboter, Mage...). I think the key removals there are Bolt, Path and Helix. Electrolyze is the worse one of the bunch in that MU.
It's pretty mediocre against humans. On the play it's a mostly reasonable card, but on the draw it just feels so bad. The only time you get the 2 x/1 kill tends to be when you are already winning and have been controlling the board for a while.
I agree that Lyze isnt that great vs Humans, although I do still like the card. There's a bunch of decks that have some amount of targets for it, and since it cycles it is rarely dead. It's also a way to deal with 5 toughness creatures or Jace without creating card disadvantage when combined with a bolt or helix
Lyze fits the Geist build so well though, taking out multiple blockers and going to face EOT without losing cards. In Geist builds my burn setup is always either 4/4/2 or 4/3/2 for bolt/helix/l could see going down to 1, but I'm not certain as I do really like the card.
Speaking of the Geist list as people were talking about it still being viable; I definitely think it still is. There are so many people trying out different Jace builds now and many don't really consider decks going under them; often they are defenseless against burn. If you combine Geist with Clique to guarantee it resolving, maybe have some Jaces yourself to match the CA, Geist should be favoured. You just need a good gameplan vs the aggro decks trying to go wide to beat Jace.
What would you cut for Clique? And also, another question: if you were to play that 9th creature, are you sure you'd want it to be Clique over Resto in this new world of Bolts and Bloodbraids?
not really sure what id cut tbh. maybe a dispel in the SB, and if you were siding it in a bunch consider moving it to the main deck.
resto only seems worth it if you are capitalizing on the blink. with your list the best you can hope for is if you already have a snapcaster on the field AND you have 5+ mana.
then again i havent played with resto in a LONG time. so it might be worth revisiting.
clique just seems higher value since it doubles as disruption and a clock. stripping a potential answer for geist from an opponents hand, or snagging a high power card in the drawstep (ie. bbe/jace) seems like big game. there is also the added utility of being able to cycle one of your own cards (ie multiple geists in hand).
the only times ive found clique to be bad is when they can deal with it for less than a card, like with electrolyze or lingering souls.
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// 5 Creature
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
// 2 Enchantment
2 Search for Azcanta
// 21 Instant
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Logic Knot
2 Electrolyze
2 Cryptic Command
1 Spell Snare
1 Negate
1 Secure the Wastes
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Field of Ruin
// 3 Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// 5 Sorcery
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Serum Visions
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Spreading Seas
1 Stony Silence
1 Detention Sphere
1 Abrade
2 Dispel
2 Counterflux
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict
Frankly 2 Jaces main is probably enough but I like to run 3 now for testing purposes and it helps in this slowdown armsrace. The side is a mess since the format is a mess, lol
I love the Counterflux in the side, one of my favorite cards. I noticed last night (2 leagues) that Izzet Staticaster is great right now, but that could have just been what I faced. I also don't know what you would cut for it in your side, but it over preformed. It allowed me destroy affinity, goblins, lingering souls and young pyromancer last night.
I like the main deck Clique; I am going to have to find space in my list for that.
I really dislike Miracle cards, I do not think it is really viable in Modern. It very often happens that I StW for 2-4 tokens the first time, to save me some life with chumpblocks, or in response to a discard spell, or just EoT vs attrition to make use of my mana more efficiently. It's generally the second snapcastered StW that is meant to go for the kill. StW's power lies in its flexibility entirely and Entreat the Angels does not have this function
If mana was an issue I'd start with replacing a Field of Ruins before a Colonnade; it's the best manland in Modern and especially with all this attrition going on I'd probably play 5 if I was allowed to
I'm still inbetween Staticaster and Engineered Explosives in the side; reasoning for EE over it is that you cant Azcanta into Staticaster, and EE helps vs Lantern.
one thing id recommend is trying out Opt. either doing a split of Opt and visions, or just playing opt exclusively. not having to tap out in your mainphase for cantrips in the early turns makes it feel like you have a lot more mana.
as for Colonnades, i am actual of the opposite mindset and was thinking about cutting down to 2 for another untapped source in the early game. the games where colonnade becomes a factor are the grindy games, and we have jace for that now. ill probably end up sticking with 3, but i can't see myself ever playing the full 4 again.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Cryptic also further competes for our 4 drops and I want 2 verdict right now so I am at 2 Jace, 3 Cryptic and 2 Verdict. I have had terrible luck with Jace. I have had 3 times where even just with the two I have drawn both in the first 2 turns... I know that is just really bad luck, but it has been super annoying.
On Colonnade/Field of Ruin. I have notice a ton of field of ruin right now, doesn't that lower the value of Colonnade or is the extra Colonnade count with the expectation of the extra field of ruins?
One further question, you went up to 4 Bolt main, but have an abrade in the side instead of Wear/Tear, how are you dealing with enchantments? I get that you have the EE, but is that enough?
Modern
Mono U-Tron U
Jeskai Control UWR
EDH
Ezuri, Renegade Leader UG
Tasigur, the Golden Fang UGB
Abrade is excellent against Vial decks which are quite common right now as well
Blood moon, Ghirapur aether Grid, bitterblossom, phyrexian unlife, whatever that blue untap thing in Knightfall is, detention sphere, tuned halo, whichever enchantment that is lethal t4 from boggles... the list is pretty extensive
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A singleton mountain allows you an un-shocked fetch into bolt for burn / aggro MU's. It also insulates you somewhat against field of Ruin attempts to cut you off red.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Blood Moon is relevant, but I'd run a Purge if I really wanted to beat it as it can be played around quite easily. The other targets are all very fringe, and generally the only enchantment target in the lists that run them; I'd rather just rely on Engineered Explosives than bringing in such a narrow card vs those decks.
If I was allowed 20 sideboard cards I'd probably play a W/T but if I'm only allowed 15 then I'd rather have more applicable cards.
holding fetches up protects you from getting color screwed, works with jace, and helps flip azcanta.
/sigh
the more i keep tweaking my list the more i ask myself if im getting adequate returns from playing 3 colors (particularly jeskai). the only card that stands out is lightning helix.
hmmm. maybe i should add a few more flash creatures to increase the likelihood of doing chip damage, subsequently making our burn suite more relevant.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)3x logic knot seems a bit much. maybe consider cutting one for a mana leak or remand
i'd also try to find room for at least 1 V-clique in the 75.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I'm with you on all this, Geist will remain important but quellers stock will lower as more bolts and abrupt decays re-enter the format. And agree that 1x V-clique can still easily still slot into the main of either a Control or Geist shell. Though I do think 2x Field of Ruin in a 24 land deck may JUST be viable.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
This brings up another topic I had on my mind. Besides the previous planeswalkers you had been using in this deck, what have you guys been cutting for Jace?
It's pretty mediocre against humans. On the play it's a mostly reasonable card, but on the draw it just feels so bad. The only time you get the 2 x/1 kill tends to be when you are already winning and have been controlling the board for a while.
Speaking of the Geist list as people were talking about it still being viable; I definitely think it still is. There are so many people trying out different Jace builds now and many don't really consider decks going under them; often they are defenseless against burn. If you combine Geist with Clique to guarantee it resolving, maybe have some Jaces yourself to match the CA, Geist should be favoured. You just need a good gameplan vs the aggro decks trying to go wide to beat Jace.
not really sure what id cut tbh. maybe a dispel in the SB, and if you were siding it in a bunch consider moving it to the main deck.
resto only seems worth it if you are capitalizing on the blink. with your list the best you can hope for is if you already have a snapcaster on the field AND you have 5+ mana.
then again i havent played with resto in a LONG time. so it might be worth revisiting.
clique just seems higher value since it doubles as disruption and a clock. stripping a potential answer for geist from an opponents hand, or snagging a high power card in the drawstep (ie. bbe/jace) seems like big game. there is also the added utility of being able to cycle one of your own cards (ie multiple geists in hand).
the only times ive found clique to be bad is when they can deal with it for less than a card, like with electrolyze or lingering souls.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)