[quote from="Bearscape »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/tier-1-modern/728834-jeskai-control?comment=4187"]But the thing is Azcanta is too strong not to play it right now.
Sorry to cut up your post but this bit jumps out at me. I have a long and boring back story around what I play (from Twin, to Storm, to Turns, to Grixis Control, Prowess, to Nahiri, to Queller) but came back for UWR Control, and I really love Azcanta. Is the card gaining respect from other decks, or is it just us that is playing it really?
It didnt seem too hyped initially but the impact it has seems undervalued by most.
Either way, loving the deck right now, there isnt a single card in it that I dont want to be casting at some point.
Quick Question: I miss Secure the Wastes (1-off Maindeck) and Runed Halo (2-off,SB) for a Paper Event tomorrow. What would be some good substitutions given a wide open Meta with Azcanta Control (Nicolich List)?
I thought about 1 Geist or an other PW main, because I dont want to turn on their spot removal and still have a good finisher like Secure. SB Slots could be used with Disdainful Stroke or Rejection. Opinions?
There is no real replacement for secure the wastes... instant speed finishers that go wide and boast its efficiency and flexibility are rare to to find. It is also a defensive tool. 1 geist MD is fine, though you won't find it with Azcanta. Off the top of my head I'm struggling to think of an instant speed finishers worth playing outside of snap/hulk/secure. MD Clique might be worth a thought.
You could reconfigure your PW and wincon set to include a Gideon package, or a gideon/elspeth/Geist mix, but this changes a lot of deck dynamics. This will give you greater defense from your PWs as well as more on board power at the cost of utility from Secure, Nahiri, and Ajani.
Similar story with Runed Halo but at least one can dissect which MU's you'll need to find a SB replacement with. Halo is so universally applicable that it's hard. It usually comes in for Combo or decks that have specific cards you have trouble with. Or threat light decks such as Shadow.
I think Shadow, Valakut, Storm are the ones I find it a Haymaker answer in (out of T1). Leyline of Sanctity can do good work in all these MU's (see Bearscapes' post recently), or if Valakut is a specific problem that you need to address then Shadow of Doubt is bonkers against them. Geist happens to be also very good vs. GDS and Valakut.
Play leyline instead of runed halo, and ajani instead of secure.
The cards are obviously different, but in terms of what you're looking to them to do, those are reasonable replacements.
I should also caveat that shadow of doubt is better for the tempo plan vs. Valakut, as it is just a road bump. It does 'counter' scapeshift though. If you don't own/can't afford leylines then it's a viable option. Hits gifts ungiven, chord of calling. eldritch evolution. If you're desperate in the Tron MU and have nothing else to bring in it can hit an expedition map or Sylvan Scrying on the play, and if you haven't shown it previously, often on the draw. Later in the game vs. tron it can hit Sanctum of Ugin.
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
I've been moving to the "Azcanta flash" deck as well, I would probably choose it over a geist list now in a big tournament. I'm not a fan of the pure control Azcanta lists just because of time issues, so currently I'm running 4 Queller and 2 Clique, without the bomb x Spells.
I also totally agree with theAller on counterflux, a good solid cmc3 counterspell seems so much better than guessing the meta with a mix of negate and disdainful stroke, the only moment those are better than counterflux is on the draw versus turn 3 tron (which you will probably lose anyway)
In addition to all the above, Counterflux also trumps your Ad Naus opponent who has been stockpiling pact of negations, which is normally a bit of a pickle. My first picked sideboard counters are always dispel and flux.
You'll need good numbers of dispel with it to have 5 mana open to Overload a storm player going off, and dispel their remand on Grapeshot.
The extra 1 mana (3cmc vs. 2cmc) does come up as an issue a small percentage of the time, but the pros definitely outweigh the cons here.
I agree with all of you guys about the Counterflux. Specially because of the Storm and Ux Control match-ups.
But... I want to discuss what's the best plan vs Gigadrowse on the Storm match up. Do you guys have any solid plan to beat it, or do you just go for the Counterflux and hope your other counterspells are able to stop them on the following turn?
It's not worth it to have an ability counter on the sideboard, is it? Or neither a Disallow on main deck, maybe?
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Modern RBWMardu Pyromancer R.I.P. BG The Rock
Commander W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Hey everyone, this guy(http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=118389) top 8ed the modern classic with 4 spell queller in the sideboard and an Avacyn in the main. It seems really spicy and puts your opponent in an awkward sideboarding spot game 3. It also helps with your clock too. Do you all think this is the way to go moving forward or is the more traditional sideboard better overall?
Hey everyone, this guy(http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=118389) top 8ed the modern classic with 4 spell queller in the sideboard and an Avacyn in the main. It seems really spicy and puts your opponent in an awkward sideboarding spot game 3. It also helps with your clock too. Do you all think this is the way to go moving forward or is the more traditional sideboard better overall?
Ummmm... I love it? Though I would like Clique in the board too just to go further with the SB plan.
I like Queller out of the board personally for a control list but my current board does not feature any. I know some others on here are not keen on the queller SB plan, but I now plan to do some more testing for sure...
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Modern Decks
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On the Queller build sideboard list, what match up does Pia and Kiran Nalaar sided in? thanks
I believe PKN are good in Grindy match-ups. They usually trade 3 for 1, and deal a lot of damage. Also, they tend to force sweepers from your opponents who play them, leaving more space for Geist.
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Modern RBWMardu Pyromancer R.I.P. BG The Rock
Commander W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
I agree that P&K are best vs grindy decks. It’s also worth noting that P&K are worth boarding in a Bloodmoon decks since you can cast them through blood moon. They can also be good vs infect where the extra flying blockers are nice, and vs affinity since there are times that they will resolve an etched champion at a time when we can’t deny them metalcraft.
I especially like PnK because it doesn't only come in against grindy MUs but also versus affinity. The thopters can both trade by blocking and chump an Etched Champion if needed. Being a creature also helps versus GDS as it can't get countered by Stubborn Denial
I believe (have not played it out myself) that Dredge would walk all over the pure Control version people are playing right now. There is nothing main or side, that prevents the recursion.
Tron/ETron however, you have quite a few side and main board cards to help lock them down.
Runed halo and paths, as well as potential gravehate and detention spheres can all do something to dredge, but its not great. Settle the wreckage is obviously nice as well.
That being said, without a critical mass of these cards, the dtedge matchup is terrible, and its not really worth half-assing it.
How can this version deal with tron and unfair decks?
Poorly. Tron, scapeshift, and dredge are terrible match ups. I would say you're a slight to medium underdog to storm depending on your sideboard. Burn is also bad unless you're packing 3 spell snares and 4 helix. Combo decks are always hard for jeskai, especially since a lot of lists don't play grave hate.
Decks that have good combo match ups play disruption and have a clock or play main deck prison/hate cards. Eidolon or meddling mage vs storm, arbiter vs scapeshift, martyr of sands vs burn. That's why people flock to GDS since it has cheap threats and cheap disruption, so most of its match ups are close to 50/50.
The reason to play this deck is if snap + burn spells are good. The good match ups are GDS, affinity, and decks that play birds of paradise.
When someone plays turn 1 Urza land you just groan.
Apart from Dredge I do not feel like there is any common MU right now that is poor for Jeskai Control. Unfavourable yes, but probably in the 45-55 range which is just not relevant for individual matches. One of the biggest powers of Jeskai is that you have both a huge range of sideboard options due to being 3c, and being very flexible in your postboard configuration due to being a goodstuff deck; where (for example) Affinity has to mind not diluting their deck too much postboard, we can easily side in 8 hatecards if we so desire AND have ways to dig for them.
For dredge however you'd need like 3 RIP, 2 Anger of the Gods and some form of extra clock to get the matchup to be favourable, which I just don;t think is worth it considering the deck is not that common and almost every other commonly played deck right now runs a ton of gravehate.
I thought I was alone on Counterflux but apparently not. Well most people still think Disdainful Stroke and Negate are better cards but I guess Counterflux also has its own supporters. I mean there are metagames where Negate would be better I guess, but normally that's not the case. Disdainful Stroke is only better vs Eldrazi Tron (by a lot) and Tron (marginally), but the thing is Eldrazi Tron is such a bad MU I'm not sure it makes that much sense to chose our counterspells accordingly to that MU. While against big Tron Stroke is only marginally better than Counterflux.
I think where we might disagree is I tend to play 2 copies of Counterflux, and probably you're going to tell me 1 is enough.
I've been moving to the "Azcanta flash" deck as well, I would probably choose it over a geist list now in a big tournament. I'm not a fan of the pure control Azcanta lists just because of time issues, so currently I'm running 4 Queller and 2 Clique, without the bomb x Spells.
Just out of curiosity, have you tried Secure the Wastes over Clique? In case you haven't, I suggest you to do it. I was quite surprised, it's one of those cards you actually need to test before realizing how good they can be. Just consider the fact it dodges spot removal, can act as removal vs aggro decks, can be taken with Azcanta, flashbacked with Snappy and gets obscenely powerful in the late game. Clique doesn't do any of this. Of course, Clique does other things, but if I were you I would give Secure the Wastes a shot as a 1/1 maindeck/sideboard split.
I've been on 2 Counterflux in the side for a long time now, I think it's by far the best game 2 counterspell right now and I'm always wondering why it isn't played more often. I will definitely try out 1x Secure over a Clique, the second Clique is probably the worst card in my current configuration and a wincon to dig for with Azcanta seems very good.
Apart from Dredge I do not feel like there is any common MU right now that is poor for Jeskai Control. Unfavourable yes, but probably in the 45-55 range which is just not relevant for individual matches. One of the biggest powers of Jeskai is that you have both a huge range of sideboard options due to being 3c, and being very flexible in your postboard configuration due to being a goodstuff deck; where (for example) Affinity has to mind not diluting their deck too much postboard, we can easily side in 8 hatecards if we so desire AND have ways to dig for them.
For dredge however you'd need like 3 RIP, 2 Anger of the Gods and some form of extra clock to get the matchup to be favourable, which I just don;t think is worth it considering the deck is not that common and almost every other commonly played deck right now runs a ton of gravehate.
I thought I was alone on Counterflux but apparently not. Well most people still think Disdainful Stroke and Negate are better cards but I guess Counterflux also has its own supporters. I mean there are metagames where Negate would be better I guess, but normally that's not the case. Disdainful Stroke is only better vs Eldrazi Tron (by a lot) and Tron (marginally), but the thing is Eldrazi Tron is such a bad MU I'm not sure it makes that much sense to chose our counterspells accordingly to that MU. While against big Tron Stroke is only marginally better than Counterflux.
I think where we might disagree is I tend to play 2 copies of Counterflux, and probably you're going to tell me 1 is enough.
I've been moving to the "Azcanta flash" deck as well, I would probably choose it over a geist list now in a big tournament. I'm not a fan of the pure control Azcanta lists just because of time issues, so currently I'm running 4 Queller and 2 Clique, without the bomb x Spells.
Just out of curiosity, have you tried Secure the Wastes over Clique? In case you haven't, I suggest you to do it. I was quite surprised, it's one of those cards you actually need to test before realizing how good they can be. Just consider the fact it dodges spot removal, can act as removal vs aggro decks, can be taken with Azcanta, flashbacked with Snappy and gets obscenely powerful in the late game. Clique doesn't do any of this. Of course, Clique does other things, but if I were you I would give Secure the Wastes a shot as a 1/1 maindeck/sideboard split.
I've been on 2 Counterflux in the side for a long time now, I think it's by far the best game 2 counterspell right now and I'm always wondering why it isn't played more often. I will definitely try out 1x Secure over a Clique, the second Clique is probably the worst card in my current configuration and a wincon to dig for with Azcanta seems very good.
Because on the draw against Liliana decks you just get got sometimes.
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@kodieyost: I wouldn't really board in extra counterspells vs liliana decks in the first place, would you side in Negate or Disdainful Stroke against those?
@theAller: your mainboard list is very similar to mine, I have -1 Helix -1 Cryptic for +1 Snare +1 Clique now. I've also been trying to be a little greedy and run 2 Field of Ruin over where you have Sulfur Falls (rest of the manabase exactly the same). It has helped me out way more than it has hurt me so far.
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Sorry to cut up your post but this bit jumps out at me. I have a long and boring back story around what I play (from Twin, to Storm, to Turns, to Grixis Control, Prowess, to Nahiri, to Queller) but came back for UWR Control, and I really love Azcanta. Is the card gaining respect from other decks, or is it just us that is playing it really?
It didnt seem too hyped initially but the impact it has seems undervalued by most.
Either way, loving the deck right now, there isnt a single card in it that I dont want to be casting at some point.
Spirits
There is no real replacement for secure the wastes... instant speed finishers that go wide and boast its efficiency and flexibility are rare to to find. It is also a defensive tool. 1 geist MD is fine, though you won't find it with Azcanta. Off the top of my head I'm struggling to think of an instant speed finishers worth playing outside of snap/hulk/secure. MD Clique might be worth a thought.
You could reconfigure your PW and wincon set to include a Gideon package, or a gideon/elspeth/Geist mix, but this changes a lot of deck dynamics. This will give you greater defense from your PWs as well as more on board power at the cost of utility from Secure, Nahiri, and Ajani.
Similar story with Runed Halo but at least one can dissect which MU's you'll need to find a SB replacement with. Halo is so universally applicable that it's hard. It usually comes in for Combo or decks that have specific cards you have trouble with. Or threat light decks such as Shadow.
I think Shadow, Valakut, Storm are the ones I find it a Haymaker answer in (out of T1). Leyline of Sanctity can do good work in all these MU's (see Bearscapes' post recently), or if Valakut is a specific problem that you need to address then Shadow of Doubt is bonkers against them. Geist happens to be also very good vs. GDS and Valakut.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
The cards are obviously different, but in terms of what you're looking to them to do, those are reasonable replacements.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
I also totally agree with theAller on counterflux, a good solid cmc3 counterspell seems so much better than guessing the meta with a mix of negate and disdainful stroke, the only moment those are better than counterflux is on the draw versus turn 3 tron (which you will probably lose anyway)
You'll need good numbers of dispel with it to have 5 mana open to Overload a storm player going off, and dispel their remand on Grapeshot.
The extra 1 mana (3cmc vs. 2cmc) does come up as an issue a small percentage of the time, but the pros definitely outweigh the cons here.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
But... I want to discuss what's the best plan vs Gigadrowse on the Storm match up. Do you guys have any solid plan to beat it, or do you just go for the Counterflux and hope your other counterspells are able to stop them on the following turn?
It's not worth it to have an ability counter on the sideboard, is it? Or neither a Disallow on main deck, maybe?
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Ummmm... I love it? Though I would like Clique in the board too just to go further with the SB plan.
I like Queller out of the board personally for a control list but my current board does not feature any. I know some others on here are not keen on the queller SB plan, but I now plan to do some more testing for sure...
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
He said on twitter that he really likes Avacyn except against Burn.
https://twitter.com/JonMindSculptor/status/955474013710626816
https://twitter.com/JonMindSculptor/status/928416906356383745
He used to play Queller mainboard : https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/819281#paper
On the Queller build sideboard list, what match up does Pia and Kiran Nalaar sided in? thanks
I believe PKN are good in Grindy match-ups. They usually trade 3 for 1, and deal a lot of damage. Also, they tend to force sweepers from your opponents who play them, leaving more space for Geist.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Tron/ETron however, you have quite a few side and main board cards to help lock them down.
Spirits
That being said, without a critical mass of these cards, the dtedge matchup is terrible, and its not really worth half-assing it.
Poorly. Tron, scapeshift, and dredge are terrible match ups. I would say you're a slight to medium underdog to storm depending on your sideboard. Burn is also bad unless you're packing 3 spell snares and 4 helix. Combo decks are always hard for jeskai, especially since a lot of lists don't play grave hate.
Decks that have good combo match ups play disruption and have a clock or play main deck prison/hate cards. Eidolon or meddling mage vs storm, arbiter vs scapeshift, martyr of sands vs burn. That's why people flock to GDS since it has cheap threats and cheap disruption, so most of its match ups are close to 50/50.
The reason to play this deck is if snap + burn spells are good. The good match ups are GDS, affinity, and decks that play birds of paradise.
When someone plays turn 1 Urza land you just groan.
For dredge however you'd need like 3 RIP, 2 Anger of the Gods and some form of extra clock to get the matchup to be favourable, which I just don;t think is worth it considering the deck is not that common and almost every other commonly played deck right now runs a ton of gravehate.
I've been on 2 Counterflux in the side for a long time now, I think it's by far the best game 2 counterspell right now and I'm always wondering why it isn't played more often. I will definitely try out 1x Secure over a Clique, the second Clique is probably the worst card in my current configuration and a wincon to dig for with Azcanta seems very good.
Because on the draw against Liliana decks you just get got sometimes.
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
@theAller: your mainboard list is very similar to mine, I have -1 Helix -1 Cryptic for +1 Snare +1 Clique now. I've also been trying to be a little greedy and run 2 Field of Ruin over where you have Sulfur Falls (rest of the manabase exactly the same). It has helped me out way more than it has hurt me so far.