The idea of counter magic is great in theory, a general answer in a widely varying field of threats. The problem is that Leak and Remand aren't general answers; they are only good in some match-ups, at certain times. Leak is the closest thing we have to a good, general answer, but it's at its best vs. faster decks. It becomes dead in control or midrange match-ups, and we also play 4x Path to hasten that. Vs. fast aggro or burn, I think Lightning Helix is generally better, costs the same, gets around stuff like Vial and Cavern, and gains life. Vs. spell-based combo, Leak is better for sure. Personally, I think they are pretty close, and I like how Helix makes the plan of Colonnade + Burn better. Remand has some of the same problems as Leak, but also has more applications and cycles, so I don't find it as much of a detriment.
So I am trying to cut the Leaks and go with 3 Spell Snare, 2 Remand, 1 Cryptic Command as my counter mage. Cryptic isn't really a spell in the Leak/Helix category because it doesn't help early. More of a pet card/metagame hedge.
bro i dig your analysis here. i have noticed in my play that sometimes i wonder why am i holding countermagic up anyways...why not play interactive spells instead of reactive spells. i like to think of the nahiri deck as a glorified burn deck that has mid and late game finishers too
So do any of you keep Remand or Mana Leak in your main deck against Naya Zoo? I used to board out all copies of both, but I'm beginning to think Remand is actually alright.
Sometimes I keep Remand/Leak in vs. Naya Zoo. Definitely helps more when you're on the play as opposed to the draw, but yeah, I'm of the opinion that Leak/Remand is actually not that bad against Naya Zoo.
When siding out vs. Zoo, I'll first remove the fat and heavy-cmc cards. Then remove chaff like Dispel and VClique (maybe). And of course I'll shave a couple copies of Remand/Leak. But depending on what I'm taking out, I might not cut all the copies.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
When siding out vs. Zoo, I'll first remove the fat and heavy-cmc cards. Then remove chaff like Dispel and VClique (maybe). And of course I'll shave a couple copies of Remand/Leak. But depending on what I'm taking out, I might not cut all the copies.
Leak seems respectable vs. zoo. Plus, it's good to have a counter for Choke.
The idea of counter magic is great in theory, a general answer in a widely varying field of threats. The problem is that Leak and Remand aren't general answers; they are only good in some match-ups, at certain times. Leak is the closest thing we have to a good, general answer, but it's at its best vs. faster decks. It becomes dead in control or midrange match-ups, and we also play 4x Path to hasten that. Vs. fast aggro or burn, I think Lightning Helix is generally better, costs the same, gets around stuff like Vial and Cavern, and gains life. Vs. spell-based combo, Leak is better for sure. Personally, I think they are pretty close, and I like how Helix makes the plan of Colonnade + Burn better. Remand has some of the same problems as Leak, but also has more applications and cycles, so I don't find it as much of a detriment.
So I am trying to cut the Leaks and go with 3 Spell Snare, 2 Remand, 1 Cryptic Command as my counter mage. Cryptic isn't really a spell in the Leak/Helix category because it doesn't help early. More of a pet card/metagame hedge.
bro i dig your analysis here. i have noticed in my play that sometimes i wonder why am i holding countermagic up anyways...why not play interactive spells instead of reactive spells. i like to think of the nahiri deck as a glorified burn deck that has mid and late game finishers too
Also it seems like my local metagame skews towards creature decks as opposed to spell/combo decks relative to the protour/GP metagame.
Is there a specific reason why more people are not experimenting with spell queller?
I'm prepping for GP Indi. So far I'm on a UWr flash build (see below); however, I'm considering removing -3 angles, -1 cryptic command for the Nahiri plan.
At a PPTQ I went 3-3 with a non-refined list. (was not playing Serum Visions) Beat Grixis Delver, Suicide Zoo, Affinity. Lost vs UTron, Elves, and Ad Nasium.
After refining it I went 3-0 at Sunday night modern beating suicide zoo, burn, and merfolk.
Although I know this deck isn't a traditional Nahiri deck; I post it because I'm debating about whether to turn it into one (or include a transitional sb).
If I added Nahiri I would take out -3 restoration angels, -1 command for the cards. Thoughts welcome.
Is there a specific reason why more people are not experimenting with spell queller?
I'm prepping for GP Indi. So far I'm on a UWr flash build (see below); however, I'm considering removing -3 angles, -1 cryptic command for the Nahiri plan.
Yeah I asked if anyone had done any serious testing with the card a few pages back, but got no definitive responses.
I see that you went in the direction of emphasizing a full on flash suite of creatures.
For me personally it came down to comparing Spell Queller to V-Clique since they occupy the same design space. Both are flash flying threats that have a disruptive element. The power and toughness for each had their advantages and disadvantages (ie. Queller can block better, but V-clique is a faster clock + can trade better). The problem with Spell Queller is that you are essential playing it in the same context as a permission spell, meaning that you have to hold up mana at some point to get the full effect. V-clique on the otherhand is guaranteed information (seeing their hand), with the potential for taking a key piece from their hand. Downside being that Clique isn't card positive, even for a short period of time (while Queller is). Also V-clique is legendary, bringing all the downsides associated with that.
There are also the corner cases where V-clique can filter your own cards if you have a bunch of stinkers in hand.
I've been wanting to take some time to see if there is a flash/spirit jeskai shell worth pursuing. Something similar to what you have, but maybe with some extra spirit synergies (ala faeries v2.0). Geist of Saint Traft is a spirit that we already play anyways.
As for your list, I can't tell how the list would have played out and obviously you would know better; however from eyeballing the list it seems like Resto Angel would provide a necessary proactive element that also supplements the benefits of your other flash threats. For example blinking a Spell Queller in the event a more dangerous/problematic < 4 cmc play occurs. So I don't think dropping Restos for a Nahiri package would provide as much as you might think.
I'd probably consider dropping a Cryptic for another Path anyways. You want to leverage tempo advantage, and Path does that better in the early game.
Maybe you could find some success with transformational elements in the sideboard that bring you closer to a traditional Nahiri list. This would definitely be costly in terms of sideboard space, but your aggressive/tempo stance means that you aren't too interested in what the opponent is bringing to the table so sideboard hate isn't as necessary.
Is there a specific reason why more people are not experimenting with spell queller?
I'm prepping for GP Indi. So far I'm on a UWr flash build (see below); however, I'm considering removing -3 angles, -1 cryptic command for the Nahiri plan.
Yeah I asked if anyone had done any serious testing with the card a few pages back, but got no definitive responses.
I see that you went in the direction of emphasizing a full on flash suite of creatures.
For me personally it came down to comparing Spell Queller to V-Clique since they occupy the same design space. Both are flash flying threats that have a disruptive element. The power and toughness for each had their advantages and disadvantages (ie. Queller can block better, but V-clique is a faster clock + can trade better). The problem with Spell Queller is that you are essential playing it in the same context as a permission spell, meaning that you have to hold up mana at some point to get the full effect. V-clique on the otherhand is guaranteed information (seeing their hand), with the potential for taking a key piece from their hand. Downside being that Clique isn't card positive, even for a short period of time (while Queller is).
There are also the corner cases where V-clique can filter your own cards if you have a bunch of stinkers in hand.
I've been wanting to take some time to see if there is a flash/spirit jeskai shell worth pursuing. Something similar to what you have, but maybe with some extra spirit synergies (ala faeries v2.0). Geist of Saint Traft is a spirit that we already play anyways.
As for your list, I can't tell how the list would have played out and obviously you would know better; however from eyeballing the list it seems like Resto Angel would provide a necessary proactive element that also supplements the benefits of your other flash threats. For example blinking a Spell Queller in the event a more dangerous/problematic < 4 cmc play occurs. So I don't think dropping Restos for a Nahiri package would provide as much as you might think.
I'd probably consider dropping a Cryptic for another Path anyways. You want to leverage tempo advantage, and Path does that better in the early game.
Maybe you could find some success with transformational elements in the sideboard that bring you closer to a traditional Nahiri list. This would definitely be costly in terms of sideboard space, but your aggressive/tempo stance means that you aren't too interested in what the opponent is bringing to the table so sideboard hate isn't as necessary.
From my limited play testing experience (only about 11 matches played) restoration angel is typically not used as a proactive element. More often then not I'm simply casting it as a clock.
Spell Queller is "awkward" with Angel. If you blink spell queller to save it, you are forced to choose the spell before it becomes countered (counter productive).
It's very rare that I actually want to flicker it.
I think this Lingering Souls discussion and the Eldrazi one got sort of mixed up. I don't think Lingering Souls was ever suggested/implied to be good against Eldrazi.
Sure, splashing black gives additional tools against Eldrazi decks; however the cost of supporting another color + the deck slots usually outweighs anything else.
As others have mentioned, the Eldrazi matchup (particularly non-Death & Taxes variations) seems to mostly aim to invalidate/weaken a good portion of our removal, play around permission with Cavern, and cast big dudes ahead of curve.
So of course Terminate does some work, but at the same time you could get comparable results by emphasizing white. More Supreme Verdicts or Wrath of Gods, Condemn, Oust, O-ring effects (D-sphere), etc, etc, etc. Splashing a whole other color for a single matchup is sort of extreme.
But since we are talking about splashing black I saw an interesting list crop on at SCG's site a few days ago:
Basically this player went in the other direction and played mostly Grixis with a minor white splash for the Nahiri package. Worth considering.
Exactly this. I’m sorry there was confusion. I wasn’t attributing lingering souls as a way to combat Eldrazi, just as a card I’ve switched timely reinforcements for as I am splashing black, and therefor can.
A couple of things to add:
1) Black is splashed for sideboard cards; specifically Crackling Doom and Slaughter Games. We can get into the specifics of how powerful these cards are in a subsequent conversation; think boggles, infect, mirror, etc.
2) This allows a better/more efficient token generating card/discarding fodder card in souls as compared to timely. That said, I have gone to three copies of lightning helix because of this.
3) With regards to Eldrazi matchup, I gave the suggestion (again, b/c I splash black) to use those aforementioned Crackling and Slaughter to remove their most devastating creatures. To add, lingering isn’t so bad against the Eldrazi. Sure no life-gain, but discarding it when targeting their reality smasher doesn’t seem so bad to me as it will hopefully be recasted from the grave for two tokens…not bad at all IMO.
Maybe I'm wrong, but the idea of splashing black in this instance is to get some help dealing with Eldrazi decks. I'm not sure how Lingering Souls is supposed to accomplish that. Terminate (and tons of other black-based removal) seems like a more directly relevant way of dealing with it than Lingering Souls. I guess the spirit tokens could help stall for a Nahiri, but that seems sketchier when you compare the number of parts you need for either plan. In either case, I would think your early game should be all about Mana Leak and Remand.
See above for partial response. The early game you are describing is exactly what I said in an earlier post. I specifically said there is no reason to force the souls if the cards in your hand are better suited to deal with early threats. This is EXACTLY the way one would play the timely OR souls. It all depends on the matchup, board state, and the cards in-hand.
I was personally interested in @yianni87's take with a black splash for lingering souls because it might be useful tech in some specific metagames. If you expect things to be super grindy with a ton or mirror matches and other slow/fair decks then having AV AND Lingering Souls would just grind people to dust. But you have to design things to mitigate the damage if you happen to run into an aggressive strategy.
This is why I’m splashing black exactly. It has to do with where I’ve seen some issues in the metagame. There have been too many games where I couldn’t target/kill a creature they have attacking me; enter crackling doom. Furthermore, removing a 4-of card, such as an opponents Nahiri/Scapeshift/anythingelse on turn 4 without the threat of it being countered is nothing short of amazing. The lingering souls is just an added bonus as it synergizes well with our plan/deck.
That said, when I consider adding cards like Desolate lighthouse I am very worried (havent tried yet) because I do splash that fourth color…
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy: Burn (18-6-1 over multiple events)
Eldrazi and Taxes (under construction)
Modern: Eldrazi Tron (All sanctioned events; Record: 38-9-2 over ~12 Wed/Fri Night Modern events: 78% match win rate; last updated 9.13.17)
Jeskai Harbinger
Naya Burn (20-6-2 over multiple 1K and FNM events; retired)
Building: Esper control and a mill deck for fun and some variety.
I faced titan bloom t1, winning 2-1, and then I got 3 naya burns (0-2/0-2/1-2).
I found it really hard to beat burn with my build.
Experience let me consider putting some more hate, in the MB as well as SB.
Any suggestion?
Yeah that can happen sometimes. There are some very real reasons why burn is one of the most popular/played decks in modern. It is relatively cheap, and has a high skill floor (and decently high skill ceiling). Meaning that newer players, or players who don't play modern much can pick up burn and navigate the tier1 power level deck to success.
I am not entirely sure how you sideboarded, but generally you should be bringing in any lifegain, and then cheap counters. Take out Remand, Sweepers, and then AV.
If you want a little better matchup for burn it might be worth while to find another spot for a 3rd Lightning Helix. Also you could take out the Supreme Verdict for a Timely Reinforcements.
The number and amount of hate you include in your sideboard is really up to you. Since lifegain/cheap permission options are so numerous you can drastically change your matchup percentage if you want, but at the cost of percentage in other matchups. For me personally it seems like burn has dropped off somewhat in paper environments, but if you think it is a thing then included 1-2 slots for Timely, or even going all-in on something like 4 Leyline of Sanctity might be warranted.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Hi there,
I'm going back to playing magic after some time, and since I always had a thing for control, I'm focusing on learn this deck (since esper apparently isn't much of a thing anymore =//).
Well, I'm still getting to know matchups, but I'd like to know what's you guys thoughts on when to bring crumble to dust.. do you only bring it agains tron or just use it to deal with manlands too? (raging ravine, I'm looking at you) - or am I just having trouble dealing with manlands because I'm playing it wrong?
Hi there,
I'm going back to playing magic after some time, and since I always had a thing for control, I'm focusing on learn this deck (since esper apparently isn't much of a thing anymore =//).
Well, I'm still getting to know matchups, but I'd like to know what's you guys thoughts on when to bring crumble to dust.. do you only bring it agains tron or just use it to deal with manlands too? (raging ravine, I'm looking at you) - or am I just having trouble dealing with manlands because I'm playing it wrong?
Thanks
For me Crumble is reserved just for Tron and Valakut decks (Scapeshift, etc). A 4 CMC sorcery speed spell that might be helpful just isn't my idea of a good use of a deck slot post board.
If you are worried about manlands (specifically from Jund) I think Spreading Seas is generally a better option. Even if they Abrupt Decay it you are still ahead on cards. Also we run plenty of spot removal, so you just have to be conscious about saving it for lands and use sorcery answers (ie. sweepers) for creatures. Sometimes you have no choice of course, but you get what I am saying.
Manlands are hard to deal with for fair/slow decks regardless. Having a land that doubles as a pseudo spell/threat far outweighs the cost of it coming into play tapped if both sides aren't looking to do much on the early turns.
@LoxodonHierarch
Serum Visions is difficult to evaluate in a vacuum. If you think about it, in an ideal world we would never need/want to cast SV; rather just have those slots for impactful spells and draw everything when you need it.
So it is pretty much there for consistency. It makes your worst draws not as bad, but subsequently makes your better draws slightly worse.
Anywho I don't think there is a great difference between 3-4 SV. What you propose definitely makes your burn matchup better to a noticeable degree. The chances of finding a lifegain spell in your first 7 + first few draws goes up by a significant percentage.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Hi there,
I'm going back to playing magic after some time, and since I always had a thing for control, I'm focusing on learn this deck (since esper apparently isn't much of a thing anymore =//).
Well, I'm still getting to know matchups, but I'd like to know what's you guys thoughts on when to bring crumble to dust.. do you only bring it agains tron or just use it to deal with manlands too? (raging ravine, I'm looking at you) - or am I just having trouble dealing with manlands because I'm playing it wrong?
Thanks
For me Crumble is reserved just for Tron and Valakut decks (Scapeshift, etc). A 4 CMC sorcery speed spell that might be helpful just isn't my idea of a good use of a deck slot post board.
If you are worried about manlands (specifically from Jund) I think Spreading Seas is generally a better option. Even if they Abrupt Decay it you are still ahead on cards. Also we run plenty of spot removal, so you just have to be conscious about saving it for lands and use sorcery answers (ie. sweepers) for creatures. Sometimes you have no choice of course, but you get what I am saying.
Manlands are hard to deal with for fair/slow decks regardless. Having a land that doubles as a pseudo spell/threat far outweighs the cost of it coming into play tapped if both sides aren't looking to do much on the early turns.
@LoxodonHierarch
Serum Visions is difficult to evaluate in a vacuum. If you think about it, in an ideal world we would never need/want to cast SV; rather just have those slots for impactful spells and draw everything when you need it.
So it is pretty much there for consistency. It makes your worst draws not as bad, but subsequently makes your better draws slightly worse.
Anywho I don't think there is a great difference between 3-4 SV. What you propose definitely makes your burn matchup better to a noticeable degree. The chances of finding a lifegain spell in your first 7 + first few draws goes up by a significant percentage.
I will add this: not playing Serum Visions is "probably" a mistake.
Not only does it add consistency; however, modern is a format dictated by powerful SB cards.
Being able to effectivly dig three increases the chances of you hitting the "silver bullets" you need to win.
You can probably get away without the card... but it means you have to mulligan far more aggressively.
Keeping that in mind... I think Serum Visions is good in any matchup.
Most list run it as a 1 off in the SB, probably as a relic of old Jeskai lists (I even remember playing it in UR Twin with a single Sacred Foundry instead of the traditional Ancient grudge splash to have answers to enchantments).
But now, we have main deck answers to enchantments with our Nahiri. The 2 for 1 we can get by gettng the fuse is very rarely relevant, so I'm thinking of switching this card to either Shattering Spree or (most likely) Vandalblast. It's true we lack the versatility, but the Artefact+Enchantment 2 for 1 we could get is less likely than the several artefacts x-for-1 with the other cards. Any thoughts?
I've also tested a lot against dredge (and got destroyed by it in a PPTQ) and I think we need some dedicated hate. I'm not a fan of Relic in general, and I don't like at all narrow cards like RIP (we can only bring it against Dredge since it also hinders our strategy) or Tormod's Crypt. I can see only 2 solutions, either more angers (2 is not enoough, especially since they can play around it to a certain extent), or surgical extraction.
I'm might test a logic knot over a mana leak to, the card is always very good, especially as a 1 off (and we have no other delve spells). I have not tested it yet since it is kind of non-bo with emrakul shuffling our yard (especially in the late game where we need to be able to logic knot for a bunch of mana). Being able to exile some bad cards before shuffling on the other hand is very good
Hi there,
I'm going back to playing magic after some time, and since I always had a thing for control, I'm focusing on learn this deck (since esper apparently isn't much of a thing anymore =//).
Well, I'm still getting to know matchups, but I'd like to know what's you guys thoughts on when to bring crumble to dust.. do you only bring it agains tron or just use it to deal with manlands too? (raging ravine, I'm looking at you) - or am I just having trouble dealing with manlands because I'm playing it wrong?
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Very interesting Version I would love to hear some oppinions on the 15 different card sideboard two cliques main only 1 spellsnare.
I have been playing the 9 counter version for some time and allways felt good. That beeing said eldrazi is on the rise a friend of mine just 7-0ed a turnament we went to with RGEldrazi.
Its a matter of time till they get more popular needless to say spellsnare is garbo in those kind of matchups.
I wounder if he's going to modify the list now that Spell Queller is out. I'm thinking potentially. I've already been brewing.
So i went for my LGS to play 5 rounds of modern with my Jeskai Harbinger.
Game 1: Bushwacker Zoo (2-1)
Game 2: Ad Nauseum (2-1)
Game 3: Suicide Zoo (2-0)
Game 4: Abzan Doran (2-0)
Game 5: Bant Eternal Command (2-0)
For this week the only changes I'm going to make is to replace Baneslayer Angel with Counterflux in the board as I feel like the combo count is ticking up.
So I want to discuss some of my unusual choices and try explain my reasoning behind these choices. Lets move onto the cards.
Turn 3 Anger into Turn 4 Nahiri, the Harbinger is just ridiculous. Further Anger provide us with a sweeper which is very good in current meta as it is so aggro. You could play Supreme Verdict instead but I think Anger is where i want to be atm.
In matchups where Lightning Bolt is good, Jeskai is good. Actually this deck provide tools for us to beat ANY creature possible which are trown at us in modern. We got Path to Exile for thoughtness 4+ creatures and Bolt for the rest. We even have Anger of the Gods for Geist of Saint Traft. That's why i want a counter which takes care of anything our removal cant, such as enchantment, artifacts and walkers. Negate is the ideal counter for this!
I think Logic Knot is the closes we ever get to Counterspell in modern! Further Logic Knot is brilliant as a tool to remove unwanted cards which would otherwise be shuffled back into the deck with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. This got quite relevant a few times last friday, felt so good eating a few fetch lands plus two AV before i shuffled back emmy. I want Counterspell so bad in Modern, but till that happens i presume Logic Knot is our best option. If i ever get Counterspell it will ofc be a 4 of replacing both Negate and Logic Knot.
This card is very very good and I believe we should start include this in our Nahiri lists. This card alone won me a match against both Bushwacker Zoo, Suicide Zoo and the entire game, which means it won me both matches, against Bant Eternal Command. Get your foils ASAP as it will be a staple in modern.
My 2 cents, lets discuss it
I recommomend dropping Keranos, card is unplayable in the current meta.
Did anyone also notice how Gerry boards ? Never thought about cutting Emrakul or Nahiri or leaving in AV in those Match Ups. I can see that Gerry might be right, what is your oppinion ?
About AV, I think it is a core element of the deck with this build (no cryptic, low mana curve) and I very rarely cut it when sideboarding. Even when it's bad, it's generally not the first card I cut, so it needs to be bad+I have a lot of cards to bring in in the MU.
About boarding out Emrakul+some Nahiri, I have to admit I never really thought about it until I watched Schaun's video where he boards those out a lot, and it seems like a good plan (like you don't really need emrakul to beat infect so its better to have only good cards and not risk drawing a blank or to many nahiris). I'm not sure it's such a good idea in the build I run which is very light on other wincons though (closer to ingram's list)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTGO Username: Tajicyolo
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show Duel Commander:Kess High Tide Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
What do people think the very best sideboard cards against Infect are?
Izzet staticaster, negate/dispel, and wear // tear (for spellskite and wild defiance) are normally all I need vs infect. Never really have a problem with the matchup unless they have an insane hand. I also still play 2 electrolyze though, which not everyone has anymore. I normally end the game while at a fairly high infect count, since I'm constantly taking a bit, then killing the creature, but I normally have enough kill spells to fight through their protection spells, and I'm normally okay with trading a bolt with a pump spell.
bro i dig your analysis here. i have noticed in my play that sometimes i wonder why am i holding countermagic up anyways...why not play interactive spells instead of reactive spells. i like to think of the nahiri deck as a glorified burn deck that has mid and late game finishers too
Sometimes I keep Remand/Leak in vs. Naya Zoo. Definitely helps more when you're on the play as opposed to the draw, but yeah, I'm of the opinion that Leak/Remand is actually not that bad against Naya Zoo.
When siding out vs. Zoo, I'll first remove the fat and heavy-cmc cards. Then remove chaff like Dispel and VClique (maybe). And of course I'll shave a couple copies of Remand/Leak. But depending on what I'm taking out, I might not cut all the copies.
Leak seems respectable vs. zoo. Plus, it's good to have a counter for Choke.
Also it seems like my local metagame skews towards creature decks as opposed to spell/combo decks relative to the protour/GP metagame.
I'm prepping for GP Indi. So far I'm on a UWr flash build (see below); however, I'm considering removing -3 angles, -1 cryptic command for the Nahiri plan.
At a PPTQ I went 3-3 with a non-refined list. (was not playing Serum Visions) Beat Grixis Delver, Suicide Zoo, Affinity. Lost vs UTron, Elves, and Ad Nasium.
After refining it I went 3-0 at Sunday night modern beating suicide zoo, burn, and merfolk.
3x Celestial Colonnade
1x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Flooded Strand
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Snow-Covered Mountain
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
2x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
2x Mana Leak
3x Path to Exile
4x Remand
4x Serum Visions
2x Cryptic Command
3x Restoration Angel
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Spell Queller
2x Vendilion Clique
Although I know this deck isn't a traditional Nahiri deck; I post it because I'm debating about whether to turn it into one (or include a transitional sb).
If I added Nahiri I would take out -3 restoration angels, -1 command for the cards. Thoughts welcome.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Yeah I asked if anyone had done any serious testing with the card a few pages back, but got no definitive responses.
I see that you went in the direction of emphasizing a full on flash suite of creatures.
For me personally it came down to comparing Spell Queller to V-Clique since they occupy the same design space. Both are flash flying threats that have a disruptive element. The power and toughness for each had their advantages and disadvantages (ie. Queller can block better, but V-clique is a faster clock + can trade better). The problem with Spell Queller is that you are essential playing it in the same context as a permission spell, meaning that you have to hold up mana at some point to get the full effect. V-clique on the otherhand is guaranteed information (seeing their hand), with the potential for taking a key piece from their hand. Downside being that Clique isn't card positive, even for a short period of time (while Queller is). Also V-clique is legendary, bringing all the downsides associated with that.
There are also the corner cases where V-clique can filter your own cards if you have a bunch of stinkers in hand.
I've been wanting to take some time to see if there is a flash/spirit jeskai shell worth pursuing. Something similar to what you have, but maybe with some extra spirit synergies (ala faeries v2.0). Geist of Saint Traft is a spirit that we already play anyways.
As for your list, I can't tell how the list would have played out and obviously you would know better; however from eyeballing the list it seems like Resto Angel would provide a necessary proactive element that also supplements the benefits of your other flash threats. For example blinking a Spell Queller in the event a more dangerous/problematic < 4 cmc play occurs. So I don't think dropping Restos for a Nahiri package would provide as much as you might think.
I'd probably consider dropping a Cryptic for another Path anyways. You want to leverage tempo advantage, and Path does that better in the early game.
Maybe you could find some success with transformational elements in the sideboard that bring you closer to a traditional Nahiri list. This would definitely be costly in terms of sideboard space, but your aggressive/tempo stance means that you aren't too interested in what the opponent is bringing to the table so sideboard hate isn't as necessary.
Edit: added downside that V-clique is legendary
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)From my limited play testing experience (only about 11 matches played) restoration angel is typically not used as a proactive element. More often then not I'm simply casting it as a clock.
Spell Queller is "awkward" with Angel. If you blink spell queller to save it, you are forced to choose the spell before it becomes countered (counter productive).
It's very rare that I actually want to flicker it.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Sorry about the late reply on this discussion. I didnt log in this weekend...
To address a couple of comments:
Exactly this. I’m sorry there was confusion. I wasn’t attributing lingering souls as a way to combat Eldrazi, just as a card I’ve switched timely reinforcements for as I am splashing black, and therefor can.
A couple of things to add:
1) Black is splashed for sideboard cards; specifically Crackling Doom and Slaughter Games. We can get into the specifics of how powerful these cards are in a subsequent conversation; think boggles, infect, mirror, etc.
2) This allows a better/more efficient token generating card/discarding fodder card in souls as compared to timely. That said, I have gone to three copies of lightning helix because of this.
3) With regards to Eldrazi matchup, I gave the suggestion (again, b/c I splash black) to use those aforementioned Crackling and Slaughter to remove their most devastating creatures. To add, lingering isn’t so bad against the Eldrazi. Sure no life-gain, but discarding it when targeting their reality smasher doesn’t seem so bad to me as it will hopefully be recasted from the grave for two tokens…not bad at all IMO.
See above for partial response. The early game you are describing is exactly what I said in an earlier post. I specifically said there is no reason to force the souls if the cards in your hand are better suited to deal with early threats. This is EXACTLY the way one would play the timely OR souls. It all depends on the matchup, board state, and the cards in-hand.
This is why I’m splashing black exactly. It has to do with where I’ve seen some issues in the metagame. There have been too many games where I couldn’t target/kill a creature they have attacking me; enter crackling doom. Furthermore, removing a 4-of card, such as an opponents Nahiri/Scapeshift/anythingelse on turn 4 without the threat of it being countered is nothing short of amazing. The lingering souls is just an added bonus as it synergizes well with our plan/deck.
That said, when I consider adding cards like Desolate lighthouse I am very worried (havent tried yet) because I do splash that fourth color…
Eldrazi and Taxes (under construction)
Modern: Eldrazi Tron (All sanctioned events; Record: 38-9-2 over ~12 Wed/Fri Night Modern events: 78% match win rate; last updated 9.13.17)
Jeskai Harbinger
Naya Burn (20-6-2 over multiple 1K and FNM events; retired)
Building: Esper control and a mill deck for fun and some variety.
Yeah that can happen sometimes. There are some very real reasons why burn is one of the most popular/played decks in modern. It is relatively cheap, and has a high skill floor (and decently high skill ceiling). Meaning that newer players, or players who don't play modern much can pick up burn and navigate the tier1 power level deck to success.
I am not entirely sure how you sideboarded, but generally you should be bringing in any lifegain, and then cheap counters. Take out Remand, Sweepers, and then AV.
If you want a little better matchup for burn it might be worth while to find another spot for a 3rd Lightning Helix. Also you could take out the Supreme Verdict for a Timely Reinforcements.
The number and amount of hate you include in your sideboard is really up to you. Since lifegain/cheap permission options are so numerous you can drastically change your matchup percentage if you want, but at the cost of percentage in other matchups. For me personally it seems like burn has dropped off somewhat in paper environments, but if you think it is a thing then included 1-2 slots for Timely, or even going all-in on something like 4 Leyline of Sanctity might be warranted.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I'm going back to playing magic after some time, and since I always had a thing for control, I'm focusing on learn this deck (since esper apparently isn't much of a thing anymore =//).
Well, I'm still getting to know matchups, but I'd like to know what's you guys thoughts on when to bring crumble to dust.. do you only bring it agains tron or just use it to deal with manlands too? (raging ravine, I'm looking at you) - or am I just having trouble dealing with manlands because I'm playing it wrong?
Thanks
For me Crumble is reserved just for Tron and Valakut decks (Scapeshift, etc). A 4 CMC sorcery speed spell that might be helpful just isn't my idea of a good use of a deck slot post board.
If you are worried about manlands (specifically from Jund) I think Spreading Seas is generally a better option. Even if they Abrupt Decay it you are still ahead on cards. Also we run plenty of spot removal, so you just have to be conscious about saving it for lands and use sorcery answers (ie. sweepers) for creatures. Sometimes you have no choice of course, but you get what I am saying.
Manlands are hard to deal with for fair/slow decks regardless. Having a land that doubles as a pseudo spell/threat far outweighs the cost of it coming into play tapped if both sides aren't looking to do much on the early turns.
@LoxodonHierarch
Serum Visions is difficult to evaluate in a vacuum. If you think about it, in an ideal world we would never need/want to cast SV; rather just have those slots for impactful spells and draw everything when you need it.
So it is pretty much there for consistency. It makes your worst draws not as bad, but subsequently makes your better draws slightly worse.
Anywho I don't think there is a great difference between 3-4 SV. What you propose definitely makes your burn matchup better to a noticeable degree. The chances of finding a lifegain spell in your first 7 + first few draws goes up by a significant percentage.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I will add this: not playing Serum Visions is "probably" a mistake.
Not only does it add consistency; however, modern is a format dictated by powerful SB cards.
Being able to effectivly dig three increases the chances of you hitting the "silver bullets" you need to win.
You can probably get away without the card... but it means you have to mulligan far more aggressively.
Keeping that in mind... I think Serum Visions is good in any matchup.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Most list run it as a 1 off in the SB, probably as a relic of old Jeskai lists (I even remember playing it in UR Twin with a single Sacred Foundry instead of the traditional Ancient grudge splash to have answers to enchantments).
But now, we have main deck answers to enchantments with our Nahiri. The 2 for 1 we can get by gettng the fuse is very rarely relevant, so I'm thinking of switching this card to either Shattering Spree or (most likely) Vandalblast. It's true we lack the versatility, but the Artefact+Enchantment 2 for 1 we could get is less likely than the several artefacts x-for-1 with the other cards. Any thoughts?
I've also tested a lot against dredge (and got destroyed by it in a PPTQ) and I think we need some dedicated hate. I'm not a fan of Relic in general, and I don't like at all narrow cards like RIP (we can only bring it against Dredge since it also hinders our strategy) or Tormod's Crypt. I can see only 2 solutions, either more angers (2 is not enoough, especially since they can play around it to a certain extent), or surgical extraction.
I'm might test a logic knot over a mana leak to, the card is always very good, especially as a 1 off (and we have no other delve spells). I have not tested it yet since it is kind of non-bo with emrakul shuffling our yard (especially in the late game where we need to be able to logic knot for a bunch of mana). Being able to exile some bad cards before shuffling on the other hand is very good
Also, if you didn't see it yet, here's a link to a bunch of videos by Shaun McLaren http://www.starcitygames.com/article/33384_Video-Jeskai-Control-In-Modern.html#content_decks_standard-tab
His SB is a huge mess and I'm not a fan of his list but it's a different take on the archetype (more lands/cryptic/helixes, closer to traditional jeskai)
Currently Playing:
Modern
Legacy:
Duel Commander:
Vintage
Esper Control lives on with Guillame Wafo-Tapa:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/MrCafouillette
^A bunch of 5-0 finishes with Esper Control fairly recently.
I wounder if he's going to modify the list now that Spell Queller is out. I'm thinking potentially. I've already been brewing.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I recommomend dropping Keranos, card is unplayable in the current meta.
Did anyone also notice how Gerry boards ? Never thought about cutting Emrakul or Nahiri or leaving in AV in those Match Ups. I can see that Gerry might be right, what is your oppinion ?
About boarding out Emrakul+some Nahiri, I have to admit I never really thought about it until I watched Schaun's video where he boards those out a lot, and it seems like a good plan (like you don't really need emrakul to beat infect so its better to have only good cards and not risk drawing a blank or to many nahiris). I'm not sure it's such a good idea in the build I run which is very light on other wincons though (closer to ingram's list)
Currently Playing:
Modern
Legacy:
Duel Commander:
Vintage
Izzet staticaster, negate/dispel, and wear // tear (for spellskite and wild defiance) are normally all I need vs infect. Never really have a problem with the matchup unless they have an insane hand. I also still play 2 electrolyze though, which not everyone has anymore. I normally end the game while at a fairly high infect count, since I'm constantly taking a bit, then killing the creature, but I normally have enough kill spells to fight through their protection spells, and I'm normally okay with trading a bolt with a pump spell.
Anyone else been testing the waters with the card? So far results are promising.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA